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Hatha Sunahara
11th November 2012, 12:25 AM
Another myth bites the dust.

http://www.businessinsider.com/rich-people-do-not-create-jobs-2011-12#ixzz2Bt3J3aPk


Finally, A Rich American Destroys The Fiction That Rich People Create The Jobs Henry Blodget (http://www.businessinsider.com/author/henry-blodget) | Dec. 12, 2011, 10:38 AM

In the war of rhetoric that has developed in Washington as both sides blame each other for our economic mess, one argument has been repeated so often that many people now regard it as fact:

Rich people create the jobs.


Specifically, entrepreneurs and investors, when incented by low taxes, build companies and create millions of jobs.
And these entrepreneurs and investors, therefore, the argument goes, can solve our nation's huge unemployment problem — if only we cut taxes and regulations so they can be incented to build more companies and create more jobs.
In other words, by even considering raising taxes on "the 1%," we are considering destroying the very mechanism that makes our economy the strongest and biggest in the world: The incentive for entrepreneurs and investors to build companies in the hope of getting rich and, in the process, creating millions of jobs.


Now, there have long been many problems with this argument starting with


Taxes on rich people (capital gains and income) are, relative to history, low, so raising them would only begin to bring them back in line with prior prosperous periods, and
Dozens of rich entrepreneurs have already gone on record confirming that a modest hike in capital gains and income taxes would not have the slightest impact on their desire to create companies and jobs, given that tax rates are historically low.

So this argument, which many people regard as fact, is already flawed.
But now a super-rich and super-successful American has explained the most important reason the theory is absurd, while calling for higher taxes on himself and people like him.

The most important reason the theory that "rich people create the jobs" is absurd, argues Nick Hanauer (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-07/raise-taxes-on-rich-to-reward-true-job-creators-nick-hanauer.html), the founder of online advertising company aQuantive, which Microsoft (http://www.businessinsider.com/blackboard/microsoft) bought for $6.4 billion, is that rich people do not create jobs, even if they found and build companies that eventually employ thousands of people.
What creates the jobs, Hanauer astutely observes, is a healthy economic ecosystem surrounding the company, which starts with the company's customers.


The company's customers buy the company's products, which, in turn, creates the need for the employees to produce, sell, and service those products. If those customers go broke, the demand for the company's products will collapse. And the jobs will disappear, regardless of what the entrepreneur does.


Now, of course entrepreneurs are an important part of the company-creation process. And so are investors, who risk capital in the hope of earning returns. But, ultimately, whether a new company continues growing and creates self-sustaining jobs is a function of customers' ability and willingness to pay for the company's products, not the entrepreneur or the investor capital. Suggesting that "rich entrepreneurs and investors" create the jobs, therefore, Hanauer observes, is like suggesting that squirrels create evolution.


(Or, to put it even more simply, it's like saying that a seed creates a tree. The seed does not create the tree. The seed starts the tree. But what creates the tree is the combination of the DNA in the seed and the soil, sunshine, water, atmosphere, nutrients, and other factors that nurture it. Plant the seed in an inhospitable environment, and it won't create anything. It will die.)


So, then, if what creates the jobs in our economy is, in part, "customers," who are these customers? And what can government policy do to make sure these customers have more money to spend to create demand and, thus, jobs?

The customers of most companies, Hanauer points out, are ultimately the gigantic middle class — the hundreds of millions of Americans who currently take home a much smaller share of the national income than they did 30 years ago, before tax policy aimed at helping rich people get richer created an extreme of income and wealth inequality not seen since the 1920s (http://www.businessinsider.com/facts-about-inequality-in-america-2011-11).

The middle class has been pummeled, in part, by tax policies that reward "the 1%" at the expense of everyone else.
(It has also been pummeled by globalization and technology improvements, which are largely outside of any one country's control.)
But, wait, aren't the huge pots of gold taken home by "the 1%" supposed to "trickle down" to the middle class and thus benefit everyone? Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?


Yes, that's the way it's supposed to work.


Unfortunately, that's not the way it actually works.


And Hanauer explains why.


Hanauer takes home more than $10 million a year of income. On this income, he says, he pays an 11% tax rate. (Presumably, most of the income is dividends and long-term capital gains, which carry a tax rate of 15%. And then he probably has some tax shelters that knock the rate down the rest of the way).


With the more than $9 million a year Hanauer keeps, he buys lots of stuff. But, importantly, he doesn't buy as much stuff as would be bought if that $9 million were instead earned by 9,000 Americans each taking home an extra $1,000 a year.
Why not?


Because, despite Hanauer's impressive lifestyle — his family owns a plane — most of the $9+ million just goes straight into the bank (where it either sits and earns interest or gets invested in companies that ultimately need strong demand to sell products and create jobs). For a specific example, Hanauer points out that his family owns 3 cars, not the 3,000 that might be bought if his $9+ million were taken home by a few thousand families.


If that $9+ million had gone to 9,000 families instead of Hanauer, it would almost certainly have been pumped right back into the economy via consumption (i.e., demand). And, in so doing, it would have created more jobs.


Hanauer estimates that, if most American families were taking home the same share of the national income that they were taking home 30 years ago, every family would have another $10,000 of disposable income to spend.


That, Hanauer points out, would have a huge impact on demand — and, thereby job creation.


It's time we stopped mouthing the fiction that "rich people create the jobs."


Rich people don't create the jobs.


Our economy creates jobs.


We're all in this together. And until we return to more reasonable tax policies that help the 99% instead of just the 1%, our economy is going to go nowhere.



Hatha

palani
11th November 2012, 04:16 AM
Our economy creates jobs

Our economy? An economy is an abstract concept that neither creates jobs nor consumes products. The economy is a government owned abstract and any jobs they create they expect to be paid for. There is no money for any entity other than government.

City or Township budget divided by people served = cost of local government ($300 typ)
County budget divided by people served = cost of county government ($500 typ)
State budget divided by people served = cost of state government (2,500 typ)
Federal budget divided by people served = cost of federal government ($14,000 typ)

Total cost of all government per person by adding up the totals = $17,300 typ

Total cost of all government for a family of four = $69,200

Where is there any room in the budget of a family of four to pay for anything but government?

madfranks
11th November 2012, 07:02 AM
What creates the jobs, Hanauer astutely observes, is a healthy economic ecosystem surrounding the company, which starts with the company's customers.

Again, putting the cart before the horse. Again this Keynesian idea that if only consumption could be spurred then production will magically be created to meet that demand. This is backwards, you must invest in production before consumption can increase. If you don't, then all you consume is capital and you're left with less productive capacity, not more.

Carl
11th November 2012, 07:23 AM
Again, putting the cart before the horse. Again this Keynesian idea that if only consumption could be spurred then production will magically be created to meet that demand. This is backwards, you must invest in production before consumption can increase. If you don't, then all you consume is capital and you're left with less productive capacity, not more.
It's not a Keynesian idea, Rothbardians and Mesisians follow that idiotic notion too. I think some itialian thought that up back in the 1800's.

Santa
11th November 2012, 07:47 AM
It seems to me that basing an economic system on expanding production and consumption to begin with is idiotic.

Hatha Sunahara
11th November 2012, 09:12 AM
This is reminiscent of the competing theories of Louis Pasteur and Antoine Bechamp. Pasteur believed that germs caused disease. Bechamp (whom only one in a thousand people ever heard of) believed that conditions in the body were responsible for health or disease, and if the body created conditions where germs thrived, disease followed. The germs did not cause disease, but thrived because of it.

Rich people do not create jobs. They provide some of the conditions in which jobs are created.


(Or, to put it even more simply, it's like saying that a seed creates a tree. The seed does not create the tree. The seed starts the tree. But what creates the tree is the combination of the DNA in the seed and the soil, sunshine, water, atmosphere, nutrients, and other factors that nurture it. Plant the seed in an inhospitable environment, and it won't create anything. It will die.)

Rich people provide capital. Other factors that determine if there are jobs are physical resources, entrepreneurship, and demand. Also, as Palani notes, public policies of the government, such as taxation, regulation, and whatever else government does to promote or inhibit the creation of jobs. Rich people do not get all the credit for creating jobs. They get some credit. Demand is a large factor in creating jobs. Rich people 'invest' their wealth hoping for a profit from satisfying demand that exists. They will not invest in ideas for which there is no demand. Capital is one of many factors of production--not the only one.

Rich people use the belief that wealth is responsible for creating employment to influence government policy in their favor. A lot of tax dollars go toward providing welfare for rich people because of this myth. Historically, rich people have had a condescending attitude about workers, always minimizing the value of labor, and never ever acknowledging the idea that production happens to satisfy people's needs and wants. Ultimately it is the consumer who pays for production, and the rich capital providers get their share as profit. Rich people, especially bankers will have you believe also they they take all the risk in business. Hah!


Hatha

FreeEnergy
11th November 2012, 12:31 PM
Good discussion.

Bankers , with fiat currency, fractional reserve, credit money and LLCs aren't having any risk. They only have upside, their downside is that they have to close the bank (limited liability).

Bankers do create smoother wheel turning, but it is relatively minor to the damage they do when they take 4/5 of all mortgage payments, for instance. Nobody can seriously believe that one can leach 80% off an industry and not destroy it.

"healthy economy creates jobs" - as people pointed out, businessmen create businesses, hire employees, build production or service, and only THEN there's a possibility of the economy of consumption. actually , then there either is or is NOT a consumption, in second case business goes bust. Businessman is THE ONLY ONE who takes the risk here, not banksters, not empolyees, not even delusional keynesian and socialist economists.

I like what palani said, more government = less disposable income = economic collapse = less jobs.

Business is created mostly by people WITH disposable income (excluding some software written by a single or couple of guys in sweatshirts in a basement). And some rich people have an advantage as they've been there, done that, earned money at least once, so their success rate is just so much higher.

Hatha Sunahara
11th November 2012, 03:57 PM
Our economy? An economy is an abstract concept that neither creates jobs nor consumes products. The economy is a government owned abstract and any jobs they create they expect to be paid for. There is no money for any entity other than government.

City or Township budget divided by people served = cost of local government ($300 typ)
County budget divided by people served = cost of county government ($500 typ)
State budget divided by people served = cost of state government (2,500 typ)
Federal budget divided by people served = cost of federal government ($14,000 typ)

Total cost of all government per person by adding up the totals = $17,300 typ

Total cost of all government for a family of four = $69,200

Where is there any room in the budget of a family of four to pay for anything but government?

Are you arguing that government creates jobs? Or that they just spend all the money, and we are responsible for their spending? Where do jobs come from? Do you have a better answer?

Hatha

Glass
11th November 2012, 04:04 PM
Are you arguing that government creates jobs? Or that they just spend all the money, and we are responsible for their spending? Where do jobs come from? Do you have a better answer?

Hatha

I think what he is saying that the Government always claims responsibility for creating the jobs and as a result of this uncontested claim, they claim the right to be paid for their efforts, which they do.

The answer is to give up jobs and come up with an alternate plan. Living is usually the best alternative plan. Most people don't know how to do anything other than a job so they are at the most disadvantage when it comes to this.

palani
11th November 2012, 04:16 PM
Are you arguing that government creates jobs? Or that they just spend all the money, and we are responsible for their spending? Where do jobs come from? Do you have a better answer?

Hatha

I am saying everyone works for the federal government. Even if you work for a private company or a private individual you are paid in federal script and you are working for them.

The basis of taxation is that you occupy an office and the tax is the money you return to your employer (can we hear kickback).

The economy is owned by the government. Everyone who pays taxes works for the government. Jobs come from government stimulus. If they want a depression they will construct a depression. If they want a bubble then that too will be constructed. In this environment there is no private property. It all belongs to government just as predicted by the communist manifesto.

Once you realize this is the existing state of affairs a search for remedy begins. Any remedy should be fairly obvious.

mamboni
11th November 2012, 04:22 PM
OP's article is a chicken & egg argument - pointless. Who would deny that elimination of all taxes, levies, tariffs and regulations would not result in a huge spurt in economic activity and money velocity. In a completely free economy unfettered by the aforementioned dampers and drags, and devoid of any public assistance, welfare and subsidies, the population would quickly achieve virtual 100% employment. This is because each individual would immediately be employed supporting himself. The alternative would be starvation and death from exposure. This is the cold hard reality that hurricane Sandy revealed to us in glimpses. Granted in such a pure free economy many would perish for their disabilities or crippling entitlement mentality, notwithstanding available private charities which no doubt would volunteer to fill the void left by the state. Perhaps the rich don't "create" jobs in the absolute, but capital plus entrepreneur is a proven nidus for crytallization of a productive enterprise with net positive output. The necessary milieu is a functional, capable workforce desirous for work. Having capital at the start speeds the process of crystallization as it jumpstarts addition of plant and equipment. But in a nation with natural resources, a work force and entrepreneurial vision and stewardship, capital will quickly accumulate, both from without and within. The best example of this was early 19th century United States.

7th trump
11th November 2012, 06:22 PM
I am saying everyone works for the federal government. Even if you work for a private company or a private individual you are paid in federal script and you are working for them.

The basis of taxation is that you occupy an office and the tax is the money you return to your employer (can we hear kickback).

The economy is owned by the government. Everyone who pays taxes works for the government. Jobs come from government stimulus. If they want a depression they will construct a depression. If they want a bubble then that too will be constructed. In this environment there is no private property. It all belongs to government just as predicted by the communist manifesto.

Once you realize this is the existing state of affairs a search for remedy begins. Any remedy should be fairly obvious.
Which is it palani..........is it federal, as in government, or federal, as in federal reserve. You cant have this both ways!

No Palani, the bases of taxation, since you are talking about an employer, involves the employee participating in Social Security.
And maybe you should actually look at some of the taxing statutes to get a first hand look at taxation itself instead of YAP BABBLING statutes dont pertain to you.
Seriously, Palani, you really need to stop listening to that quack David Merrill over at SUI JURIS about this lawful money vs private credit bullshit Merrill peddles.

You are losing it Palani!

palani
12th November 2012, 05:05 AM
is it federal, as in government, or federal, as in federal reserve. You cant have this both ways! One is as good (or bad) as the other.


the bases of taxation, since you are talking about an employer, involves the employee participating in Social Security. Taxation predated the social security act.



And maybe you should actually look at some of the taxing statutes to get a first hand look at taxation itself instead of YAP BABBLING statutes dont pertain to you. Could you point out a taxing statute I have referred to?



you really need to stop listening to that quack David Merrill over at SUI JURIS about this lawful money vs private credit bullshit Merrill peddles. Is lawful money or private credit related to rich people creating jobs?


You are losing it Palani! In that case would you let me know when you find it?

Hatha Sunahara
12th November 2012, 08:54 AM
Here's a rich guy who supports the idea that rich people don't create anything:







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9mWAxHpeew


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9mWAxHpeew

The assertion that rich people create jobs is a myth created by economists. Rich people don't just own. They invest. They lend money, and by doing so create debt slaves. The debt slaves they lend to have already created jobs with their ideas and organizational skills--but they need capital to make it work. Rich people provide that capital. They do not create jobs except ones that increase their 'ownership'. Rich people abhor working in jobs. They have devised a system where they extract free labor from the rest of us by charging interest. Then they hire economists to create myths that present the exact opposite of what they really do. And all us debt slaves fall for those myths and believe with all our hearts that what the economists tell us is true, because after all, they are dealing with a subject that is complex beyond our comprehension.

Hatha

FreeEnergy
12th November 2012, 10:35 AM
Here's a rich guy who supports the idea that rich people don't create anything:
Gordon Gekko video.

The assertion that rich people create jobs is a myth created by economists. Rich people don't just own. They invest. They lend money, and by doing so create debt slaves. The debt slaves they lend to have already created jobs with their ideas and organizational skills--but they need capital to make it work. Rich people provide that capital.


Hatha, the problem here is that you equate RICH PEOPLE with investment BANKERS, which isn't so.

There's plenty of small to medium businessmen, doctors, etc. who have lots of money and create tons of jobs. Or should I say "CAN" create tons of jobs given an opportunity.

If , however, the climate is such that a 10% fixed return in invested capital looks that much more attractive - from various ways including favorable taxation -
then that just creates a flow of capital towards BANKSTER-provided services for the capital.

Spectrism
12th November 2012, 10:45 AM
THE OP article is a twist of illogic.

Writier claims that today we have a smaller wealth take home as a working class than we had 50 years ago, ALL because of the decreased tax policy. That is pure stupidity. What happened to America is a hollowing out of the manufacturing base as it was sent overseas to slave labor. On a global scale, that devastated the whole US jobs infrastructure. Increasing taxes will just add poison to the saline IV the dying patient is getting.


btw- If you look at Obama's definition of rich, he, as an anti-colonialist and hater of America, would consider everyone in Amerika as rich compared with his hut-mates in Kenya.

mamboni
12th November 2012, 11:19 AM
btw- If you look at Obama's definition of rich, he, as an anti-colonialist and hater of America, would consider everyone in Amerika as rich compared with his hut-mates in Kenya.



Exactly! Ask these demagoguing politicians to define "rich" and you'll get a blank stare or the "income over $250K" mantra which is total bullshit. Income is not wealth. Stock is wealth. Income is flow. Notice that all the multimillionaires and billionaires define rich in terms of income (flow) not stock which they are loaded to the gills with. What we really need in this country are two things:
1. a statutory limit on the size of government as a percentage of the total economy
2. a wealth tax - a percent tax on total net worth, not income.

Do this and the economy would soar. It will never happen because the rentier class cannot sit on their fat asses and gargantuan holdings and earn huge sums for doing nothing.

Carl
12th November 2012, 12:19 PM
Exactly! Ask these demagoguing politicians to define "rich" and you'll get a blank stare or the "income over $250K" mantra which is total bullshit. Income is not wealth. Stock is wealth. Income is flow. Notice that all the multimillionaires and billionaires define rich in terms of income (flow) not stock which they are loaded to the gills with. What we really need in this country are two things:
1. a statutory limit on the size of government as a percentage of the total economy
2. a wealth tax - a percent tax on total net worth, not income.

Do this and the economy would soar. It will never happen because the rentier class cannot sit on their fat asses and gargantuan holdings and earn huge sums for doing nothing.

Wow, what a logical way to apply a tax.

First I've ever heard of it, is that a product of your brilliance?

horseshoe3
12th November 2012, 12:19 PM
What we really need in this country are two things:
2. a wealth tax - a percent tax on total net worth, not income.


Take a high value, low income asset like farm land for example. Under your plan, the farmer could never afford the taxes, so he would be forced to sell a little at a time. The most likely buyer in this case is Monsanto. Is that really the kind of economic policy you want to support?

A better option would be to tax dividends and capital gains as income at the marginal rate of the tax payer. This would tax increase from capital accumulation equally to increase from labor (which is really capital when you boil it down), which I think is the point you were trying to make with your ill-concieved plan. It is not the best option, but it could be done seamlessly and would be better than the status quo and certainly better than what you suggest.

mamboni
12th November 2012, 01:30 PM
Wow, what a logical way to apply a tax.

First I've ever heard of it, is that a product of your brilliance?

Carl, I get nervous when you pay a compliment. I ducking as I type this.

mamboni
12th November 2012, 01:33 PM
Take a high value, low income asset like farm land for example. Under your plan, the farmer could never afford the taxes, so he would be forced to sell a little at a time. The most likely buyer in this case is Monsanto. Is that really the kind of economic policy you want to support?

A better option would be to tax dividends and capital gains as income at the marginal rate of the tax payer. This would tax increase from capital accumulation equally to increase from labor (which is really capital when you boil it down), which I think is the point you were trying to make with your ill-concieved plan. It is not the best option, but it could be done seamlessly and would be better than the status quo and certainly better than what you suggest.

I would exempt farmers entirely from the wealth tax when proceeds from food or other agricultural production exceeds 90% of income. While this would incent everyone to farm, the resultant glut of production would eventually self-correct as food prices drop and some farmers go bankrupt.