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mick silver
4th December 2012, 07:15 PM
What About Wealth Redistribution? Monday, December 03, 2012 – by Tibor Machan
http://www.thedailybell.com/images/library/Machan.jpg
Dr. Tibor Machan

Ever since then candidate Obama's brief exchange with "Joe the Plumber" there has been plenty of mention of wealth redistribution in the major media. Then came the recovery of a 2001 interview in which the former Senator faulted the framers of the US Constitution and the Founders who authored the Declaration of Independence for not including a right of everyone to be helped with redistributed wealth. As some have noted, this was all discussed in connection with the Civil Rights legislation, which Obama also faulted for its lack of attention to wealth redistribution – maybe reparation, as some have interpreted him. But the central point was clearly more general.
It is useful, then, to consider just what wealth redistribution is all about. But to do that, we need to consider briefly what wealth is and what amounts to its initial distribution such that some favor its being redistributed.
Wealth is whatever someone owns that he or she and others consider valuable, useful to themselves or others. The ownership, in turn, can arise from working on what is given in nature or by way of earnings from marketable labor, or from gifts and inheritance from those who had earnings in the first place, or from good fortune (as when one wins the lottery or unexpectedly finds oil beneath his land), etc.
There is an ancient dispute about whether such ownership is best regarded as private or as public. At first the dispute was carried on in terms of what type of ownership, private or public, would be most useful or productive. Aristotle gave his defense of private property as follows: "For that which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it. Every one thinks chiefly of his own, hardly at all of the common interest; and only when he is himself concerned as an individual. For besides other considerations, everybody is more inclined to neglect the duty which he expects another to fulfill; as in families many attendants are often less useful than a few." (Politics, 1262a30-37)
The historian Thucydides made a similar point when he spoke about owners of public property. He wrote that "[T]hey devote a very small fraction of the time to the consideration of any public object, most of it to the prosecution of their own objects. Meanwhile, each fancies that no harm will come to his neglect, that it is the business of somebody else to look after this or that for him; and so, by the same notion being entertained by all separately, the common cause imperceptibly decays. (Thucydides, The History of the Peloponnesian War, bk. I, sec. 141).
It was, however, not until the English philosopher John Locke laid out his theory of natural rights that more than a utilitarian case was produced in favor the right to private property. For Locke once someone mixes his or her labor with something in the wilds, that thing stops being public – or God's – and becomes, as a matter of morality, his or her private property. This is because the work invested is properly rewarded with ownership. Thereafter the owner has the right to hold on to the property, exchange it from something else with willing others, give it as a gift to someone, bequeath it to his or her offspring, and so forth. (As to wealth come by via luck, no one is justified to take it from those who are lucky, it can be inferred, otherwise people themselves could be enslaved with impunity.)
A very important feature of Locke's idea, however, was that property doesn't belong to the king, state, or government but to God who then transfers it to private individuals. It is they who work on elements of the natural world, of what is not owned by anyone else, so they are free to obtain it, hold it, trade it, etc. For others to stop them is wrong, a violation of natural rights.
Many have criticized all these ideas, especially people who hold that everything belongs to everyone together and so wealth may not be freely used and distributed by individuals, only by "the community." But, as Aristotle and Thucydides and many others since them have made clear, this idea is seriously flawed and entirely impractical. It leads to the tragedy of the commons, of people all grabbing what they want from the common wealth and failing to use it productively.
Both for moral reasons – the "first come, first gain" principle – and for practical ones – community ownership leads to wastefulness – the principle of private property rights gained influence in Western societies, in their legal and economic systems. This is one main reason that when Senator Obama suggested that what this country needs is systematic wealth redistribution – routinely taking from private owners their wealth and having governments distribute it to non-owners – many folks took umbrage. This is quite an un-American, anti-free market capitalist idea and sounds more like what is preached by socialists and communalists (even communists).
Of course, government initiated wealth redistribution is a big part of existing American society but it is usually defended for special reasons, not as a general policy. And there is, of course, the distribution of wealth we all carry out as we engage in commerce. But as to government wealth redistribution, in the wake of wealth confiscation from the citizenry, Mr. Obama elevated what seemed to most to be an exception in this country to a central feature of the society. And his opponents, of course, couldn't effectively criticize him because Republicans have been just as willing to confiscate and then redistribute wealth as Democrats, albeit not advocate it as a systematic feature of the legal system as Obama has.
Tibor Machan is the R. C. Hoiles Professor of Business Ethics & Free Enterprise at the Argyros School of Business & Economics, Chapman University, Orange, CA 92866.

Hatha Sunahara
4th December 2012, 09:59 PM
For almost as long as civilization has existed, there has been the problem of people lending and charging interest. By this mechanism, wealth is gradually re-didtributed from the peoiple who create it to the people who lend money and whose job it is to own everything. When they are finally successful at owning everyhting, everything falls apart, and the wealth has to be redistributed back to those who created it.

If we somehow get rid of the idea that it is OK to lend money at interest, then we wouldn't have these constant redistributions. We would have overcome the paradigm of haves and have nots. We also need to be exceedingly strict about no monopolies because they destroy copmpetition, and redistribute wealth to the trolls. I've seen advice here not to feed the trolls. Well, if you feed usurers and monopolists, you are feeding the trolls. And the trolls end up owning you. Public policy should be against usurers and monopolists. make it illegal to troll, and you get rid of corruption, and obscene inequalities in wealth (the 99%/1% split). The laws have to be changed.

Hatha


Hatha

Glass
4th December 2012, 10:28 PM
I think there are a couple of models for lending and yes "at interest" is the one that needs dealing with.

There was once a practice of lending in which the Lendor would receive a portion of "the increase". So if someone had 10 cows and I lent them my Bull the result would be that there would be some increase and I would benefit by receiving a portion of that increase.

Biblically this is called a Tythe. Traditonally the Tythe is paid to the ruler, because the ruler "owns" everything anyway. Traditionally a tythe is 1/10 of the whole....... actually it might not be. Anyone else know?

So where did we go wrong? Ignoring the elephant in the room for a moment..... I think it comes down to risk. If I am to receive a portion of the increase then how is that increase a benefit to me. Of course as an astute person I should be selective of my lending practices so that any increase I do receive is useful to me when I receive it. No point receiving something I cannot use or transfer to someone else in exchange.

What if that increase suffered from spoilage before I had an opportunity to truly benefit from it? That's one side of the risk. I need something else to minitgate my immediate risk and provide me with more oppportunities to maximise the benefit and minimise the risk. Negotiable notes provide us with a non fungible value we can exercise anytime in the future.

IMO lending is ok, if it is for a share of the increase and not at compounding interest. Lenders need to be savy and educated to suck up any losses. That's also a key element.

Carl
4th December 2012, 11:11 PM
For almost as long as civilization has existed, there has been the problem of people lending and charging interest. By this mechanism, wealth is gradually re-didtributed from the peoiple who create it to the people who lend money and whose job it is to own everything. When they are finally successful at owning everyhting, everything falls apart, and the wealth has to be redistributed back to those who created it.

If we somehow get rid of the idea that it is OK to lend money at interest, then we wouldn't have these constant redistributions. We would have overcome the paradigm of haves and have nots. We also need to be exceedingly strict about no monopolies because they destroy copmpetition, and redistribute wealth to the trolls. I've seen advice here not to feed the trolls. Well, if you feed usurers and monopolists, you are feeding the trolls. And the trolls end up owning you. Public policy should be against usurers and monopolists. make it illegal to troll, and you get rid of corruption, and obscene inequalities in wealth (the 99%/1% split). The laws have to be changed.

Hatha


Hatha

The problem really isn't the interest, it's the ability to create a book keeping entry and call it "money", that's the real kick in the ass, that they charge interest on it, is just a slap in the face to go along with it.

Ponce
5th December 2012, 12:04 AM
You can have 100 people who are rich and 100 people who are poor......give each one of the $100.00 and in six months those who were rich wil be rich and those who were poor will be poor once again.....what people don't understand is that money is a state of mind and not what you have in your hands.

They say that it takes money to make money and in a way that's true......for example, let's say that you already have 2,000 rolls of toilet paper that you bought five years ago and your average per roll is of 0.18 cents.....now days it would cost an average of 0.28 cents so that you allready made a lot more is you were to sell what you have at this given price... but...what made this possible was only the fact tha you did have the money five years ago to make this possible... but remember...would you be able to find another 2,000 rolls of tp anywhere?.........don't think only of today but also of tomorrow.

In what is to come you should concentrate in something that the rich peple will want because they really won't care about the price but only of having the product, or services, itself.

Serpo
5th December 2012, 01:15 AM
but there is wealth redisturbution,they get everything ,we get nothing.

Twisted Titan
5th December 2012, 03:06 AM
I can solve the debate real quick about anyone who advocates wealth distribution

Let me dig in your pocket

Get your wallet and thumb through it

And dispense 65% of your money to people that I deem are needy

Then let you go back to work and earn more so i can repeat the process.


They shouldnt have a problem right?

mamboni
5th December 2012, 07:13 AM
Wealth is the product of individual mental and physical labor. If an individual cannot keep the fruits of his labor, then he is disincentivized to produce any surplus over and above subsistence needs. This is true for the large majority of folk. If, according to the socialists, it is immoral for the individual to hold his property and wealth exclusively, the fruits of his own sacrifice and toil; then, why is it not immoral for someone who did not sacrifice and toil to be entitled to the wealth and property of another. There can be no greater disincentive to work, industry and production by the individual than the granting to him of wealth and property without toil and work. Under socialist wealth redistribution, the most capable and ambitious are persecuted and enslaved by taxes, regulations, rules and state-mandated theft. These producers soon cease to produce and begin to whither. The non-productive are exalted and rewarded for nothing, and live unfettered lives of easy procreation and consumption, supported by the wealth and property of the productive. These "needy" folk quickly multilply and their needs ever increase. The society soon sees a collective collapse in net production and wealth. The standard of living for all declines to subsistence. A first world society soon degenerates to a third world cesspool. This has been the end state of socalled socialist utopias since the beginning of recorded history. Unfortunately, after a couple of generations this tragic folly is forgotten and the same ill-fated cycle repeated once more.

Carl
5th December 2012, 07:54 AM
mamboni, is that from you or are you quoting sombody else?

I want to know because when I repeat it, I want to give credit where credit is due...

mamboni
5th December 2012, 08:06 AM
mamboni, is that from you or are you quoting sombody else?

I want to know because when I repeat it, I want to give credit where credit is due...

Those are my words. And I am sincerely honored that you might use them.

cortez
5th December 2012, 08:14 AM
Those are my words. And I am sincerely honored that you might use them.

i too have wanted to share your words as well as the others from this forum. i have had small success with at least getting a few people to notice things but over the last few years it just seems like the minds are set in stone.

thanks anyhow

Carl
5th December 2012, 09:51 AM
Those are my words. And I am sincerely honored that you might use them.

Not "Might" - "Did"...

http://www.goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?40434-Steve-Forbes-Gold-Standard-Inevitable-McAlvany-Commentary&p=469081&viewfull=1#post469081

Thanks again.

Hatha Sunahara
5th December 2012, 11:00 AM
Wealth is the product of individual mental and physical labor. If an individual cannot keep the fruits of his labor, then he is disincentivized to produce any surplus over and above subsistence needs. This is true for the large majority of folk. If, according to the socialists, it is immoral for the individual to hold his property and wealth exclusively, the fruits of his own sacrifice and toil; then, why is it not immoral for someone who did not sacrifice and toil to be entitled to the wealth and property of another. There can be no greater disincentive to work, industry and production by the individual than the granting to him of wealth and property without toil and work. Under socialist wealth redistribution, the most capable and ambitious are persecuted and enslaved by taxes, regulations, rules and state-mandated theft. These producers soon cease to produce and begin to whither. The non-productive are exalted and rewarded for nothing, and live unfettered lives of easy procreation and consumption, supported by the wealth and property of the productive. These "needy" folk quickly multilply and their needs ever increase. The society soon sees a collective collapse in net production and wealth. The standard of living for all declines to subsistence. A first world society soon degenerates to a third world cesspool. This has been the end state of socalled socialist utopias since the beginning of recorded history. Unfortunately, after a couple of generations this tragic folly is forgotten and the same ill-fated cycle repeated once more.

Mamboni, your focus here is on government policies of wealth re-distribution. The whole focus of income tax is to redistribute wealth. But it is only a part of the wealth re-distribution that happens. The other part--that slips right by the perceptions of most people is the money you pay as interest on various loans you have. If you have a mortgage, you will pay twice the value of your house as interest to the lender. The redistribution of income always goes in one direction. From the person who creates the wealth to people who have done nothing to create wealth. The government has given a monopoly to those who create money and lend it at intetest. So, in effect, the money you pay as interest on loans is a 'tax' whose benefit is directly assigned to the bankers. This is why the government allows you to deduct the mortgage interest you pay from your 'income'. They don't want to tax you twice on it. That would be too much of a disincentive to engage in productive economic activity. I think you are spot on in your analysis except for the scope of the redistribution problem--which you seemed to grasp the government's role--but not the role of the usurers, which is relentless and not subject to public policy decisions--other than withdrawing the monopoly of the usurers to issue money through debt and charge interest for it.

You might consider that the IRS stands for 'Income Redistribution Service'.

Hatha

Ponce
5th December 2012, 12:20 PM
Two things in my life that helped me chaged was 1= a course taken from EST back in 1977 and 2= a little book by the name of "The Richest Man In Babylon".............keep your mind in control and your life will be in control......but for me, no matter what I will always be crazy, in the other hand? maybe my craziness is the normal heheeheheheheh.

midnight rambler
5th December 2012, 12:24 PM
If you have a mortgage, you will pay twice the value of your house as interest to the lender.

Three times as much is more accurate.