Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy?

[Libertytree]

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/tFyc38vb8.qt6PFJYmD1dQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MzYwO2NyPTE7Y3c9NjQwO2R4PTA7ZH k9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD0zNTU7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/us.news.abcnews.otus/ht_gold_coin_tk_120905_wmain.jpg

(http://news.yahoo.com/photos/trillion-dollar-coin-save-economy-photo-110038505--abc-news-politics.html;_ylt=AmRoJGD8nBsa.1v0kVSthdr9r.l_;_y lu=X3oDMTQ1ZTFjdnJwBG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIFJlbGF0ZWQgTGV hZARwa2cDOGE3ZmI0NWYtNTE2NC0zYmEyLTljY2YtMGFhOGExY WRlYTIzBHBvcwMxBHNlYwNNZWRpYUFydGljbGVMZWFkBHZlcgM 0YTRkMmU3MC0zOWE3LTExZTItOWRmMy05ZWU1N2ExMGM1YzM-;_ylg=X3oDMTNsY3B0YmJmBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZTI3MGQ4Y2UtODI2NC0zYzU5LThmOWQtNDdmN2I2OT E2OGI0BHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANONFVfR3Jhdml0eQ--;_ylv=3)ABC OTUS News - Can Trillion Dollar Coins Save the Economy? (ABC News)







With President Obama having kicked off debt ceiling negotiations by vowing not to negotiate over the debt ceiling, a new option for paying off the nation's considerable tab is gaining momentum with cheeky fiscal and monetary wonks.


It goes like this: Should Congress fail to extend the U.S. debt limit - reached again on Dec. 31 - the president could ask the Treasury to begin printing trillion dollar coins (in a process explained mostly seriously by Jim Pethokoukis on his American Enterprise Institute blog (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AqSmSO7KuQ2NCnBPBgXZcAP9r.l_;_ylu=X3oDMTFqMDg xZXM0BG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIEJvZHkEcG9zAzEEc2VjA01lZGlhQ XJ0aWNsZUJvZHlBc3NlbWJseQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTNsY3B0YmJmBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZTI3MGQ4Y2UtODI2NC0zYzU5LThmOWQtNDdmN2I2OT E2OGI0BHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANONFVfR3Jhdml0eQ--;_ylv=0/SIG=14rl591v2/EXP=1358519150/**http%3A//www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/how-could-washington-avoid-a-debt-ceiling-default-mint-a-few-trillion-dollar-platinum-coins-seriously/)), a number of which could then be put toward fulfilling debt obligations in the event new legislation stalls in Congress.
While there are laws in place to regulate how much paper, gold, silver or copper currency can be circulated by the government, there is nothing so clearly stated when it comes to platinum. That door open, the Treasury could have the U.S. Mint melt and mold a few trillion dollars of it, then ship it over to the Federal Reserve for safekeeping until the time comes to pay the bills.
The more difficult part comes sometime after the decision is made to coin the platinum and before the Mint gets to work in sculpting the pieces.


At that point, the American people must decide whose face will adorn the trillion dollar trinket. The process to determine the "specs" of the coin, U.S. Mint Public Affairs Specialist Genevieve Billia warns, must be "determined by legislation," creating the potential for another congressional impasse.


Also to note: The likeness sculpted into its side must belong to a dead person, ruling out early favorite Ikea Monkey (https://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=Ag5gB_qq0quoxH.RjCYIgnr9r.l_;_ylu=X3oDMTFqaWd 2Ymg3BG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIEJvZHkEcG9zAzIEc2VjA01lZGlhQ XJ0aWNsZUJvZHlBc3NlbWJseQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTNsY3B0YmJmBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZTI3MGQ4Y2UtODI2NC0zYzU5LThmOWQtNDdmN2I2OT E2OGI0BHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANONFVfR3Jhdml0eQ--;_ylv=0/SIG=12fstp8kl/EXP=1358519150/**https%3A//twitter.com/stefanjbecket/status/286943192186777600), but boosting the candidacies of Ronald Reagan (https://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=Ajgp_qVI1EVd0u5sbChXSh_9r.l_;_ylu=X3oDMTFqaTN jbzlmBG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIEJvZHkEcG9zAzMEc2VjA01lZGlhQ XJ0aWNsZUJvZHlBc3NlbWJseQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTNsY3B0YmJmBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZTI3MGQ4Y2UtODI2NC0zYzU5LThmOWQtNDdmN2I2OT E2OGI0BHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANONFVfR3Jhdml0eQ--;_ylv=0/SIG=12e5bsado/EXP=1358519150/**https%3A//twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/286628942432059393) and John Maynard Keynes (https://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AmJsavn8MkJRjXHZFNaAklT9r.l_;_ylu=X3oDMTFqc2F obm1zBG1pdANBcnRpY2xlIEJvZHkEcG9zAzQEc2VjA01lZGlhQ XJ0aWNsZUJvZHlBc3NlbWJseQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTNsY3B0YmJmBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZTI3MGQ4Y2UtODI2NC0zYzU5LThmOWQtNDdmN2I2OT E2OGI0BHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANONFVfR3Jhdml0eQ--;_ylv=0/SIG=12ft6ea9k/EXP=1358519150/**https%3A//twitter.com/TheArmoTrader/status/286627551995117570).

http://news.yahoo.com/trillion-dollar-coins-ultimate-debt-ceiling-end-around-110038545--abc-news-politics.html

[chad]

i would laugh my ass off if they did that.

[Horn]

Gee & I thought breaking a 100 at the corner store was hard...

[mamboni]

How is this different from what Jim Carry did (the paper IOUs in the suitcase) in the movie Dumb and Dumber? Why bother with platinum? Little Timmy can write "I owe you $trillion" on a piece of paper and deposit it at the FED, no?

[sirgonzo420]

How is this different from what Jim Carry did (the paper IOUs in the suitcase) in the movie Dumb and Dumber? Why bother with platinum? Little Timmy can write "I owe you $trillion" on a piece of paper and deposit it at the FED, no?


Hey, empty promises are empty promises.

All is fair in love and war.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

I'm bullish on Pt now.

[palani]

Little Timmy can write "I owe you $trillion" on a piece of paper and deposit it at the FED, no?

Seriously. This is being done. Not in terms of trillions but in terms of millions. If there is no money in the classical sense then the promise to pay becomes the payment. Endorse the back of bills with the amount you want to pay plus a little gratuity (don't be stingy) and consider it paid.

The Secretary of the Treasury is said to be the agent you go to for settlement of foreign accounts.

[mamboni]

Yesterday, I ran into the local postal service guy at the pizzeria where I get my lunch,. He was going on and on about how the government is just paying for everything with printed money - but, they've been doing this for decades and the system hasn't fallen apart. I asked him for how long can someone pay for a tangible good or service with an IOU and he insisted that this can go on and on forever: shades of Dick Cheney's "deficits don't matter" comment from years ago. I think that one definition of insanity is when you start to believe in your own bullshit. This fiat money system is insane. If I were a foriegner holding dollars I'd be real pissed off and looking for ways to sell my dollars ASAP. Why the gold and silver prices haven't exploded yet is beyond me, paper manipulation and naked shorting notwithstanding.

[palani]

Yesterday, I ran into the local postal service guy at the pizzeria

Ask him to actually look at the stamps on those envelopes once. None have either a 'dollar' symbol or a 'cent' symbol. So what does '44' or 'FOREVER' on a stamp actually MEAN?

[chad]

this is now the front page story on huffpo. read the comments. classic.

[madfranks]

One interesting twist to this is that these new trillion dollar coins would be issued with no debt against them. With no debt to balance the ledgers and restrain issuance, wouldn't this money by much more inflationary, Weimar style? Credit can only be issued so far before it begins to contract, but if unrestrained fiat money can be issued at will, that would truly be the end of the dollar.

[mamboni]

One interesting twist to this is that these new trillion dollar coins would be issued with no debt against them. With no debt to balance the ledgers and restrain issuance, wouldn't this money by much more inflationary, Weimar style? Credit can only be issued so far before it begins to contract, but if unrestrained fiat money can be issued at will, that would truly be the end of the dollar.

I think the whole world has lost it's mind. Fiat money is 'backed' by debt? Sure it is, if you believe the fiction that is the debt. So Little Timmy can issue new money ex vacuo as it were and because it is unbacked by debt it's inflationary? So riddle me this: if one issues fiat money backed by debt at zero percent interest, is that inflationary? This is all a twisted game of semantics. All of this treasury and fed money is crap, backed by hot air and fancy printed logos. Only true wealth can back money; and true wealth os born of honest labor and honest goods, like gold, silver and real production of goods and services.

[chad]

when they are seriously considering minting a magical coin to save the country, you know the end is nigh.

[Libertytree]

At first I thought this was an Onion story that had gotten past the editor at yahoo somehow but I'll be damned if they ain't serious. Truth surely is stranger than fiction.

I'm curious though, are they talking about X amount of Platinum coins that equal X trillions or just calling 1 coin a Trillion dollar coin?

[chad]

1 coin

lol

[sirgonzo420]

1 coin

lol

They should make it a microscopic coin.

One grain of platinum sounds about right.

[mamboni]

They should make it a microscopic coin.

One grain of platinum sounds about right.

Little Timmy should issue one coin with face value of $40 trillion, bring it to the FED, pay off the national debt and ask for change, about $24 trillion. With this money, he can give $23 trillion to Congress and $1 trillion to the White House to cover 2 years of Obama family vacations. You see, this budget stiff is so easy...weeeeeee

[chad]

i'm registering platinumismoney.com

[mamboni]

i'm registering platinumismoney.com

Can I join?

[chad]

sure, but i'll probably have to perma ban you after your first post.

[madfranks]

I think the whole wordl has lost it's mind. Fiat money is backed by debt? Sure it is, if you believe the fiction that is the debt. So Little Timmy can issue new money ex vacuo as it were and because it is unbacked by debt it's inflationary? So riddle me this: if one issues fiat money backed by debt at zero percent interest, is that inflationary? This is all a twsited game of semantics. All of this treasury and fed money is crap, backed by hot air and fancy printed logos. Only true wealth can back money; and true wealth os born of honest labor and honest goods, like gold, silver and real production of goods and services.

I agree the world is gone crazy and there are no legitimate merits so this trillion dollar coin idea. I'm just intrigued by the mechanics of it, compared to the mechanics of central bank issued money via debt creation. There is a difference, and it interests me to try and see the implications of one versus the other.

That being said, what are the differences to how this money would enter the economy versus how the central bank does it? As the "lender of last resort", the Fed loans money to the government or member banks, money that has terms and conditions to it's repayment, even if it's at 0% interest. The government taxes or borrows more to pay this back to the Fed, or member banks loan this money out and pay back their loans to the Fed with the proceeds. Recall that right now, member banks across the country are sitting on record amounts of reserves, because the appetite for borrowing is not what it was during the boom time. So this money is not actually making it to the economy, circulating and causing mass inflation. This is the difference: if the mint simply creates a trillion dollar coin and spends it, there is no interest to repay, there is no principal to pay back, it is simply brand new fiat money pumped directly into the economy via government spending. I imagine that's much more inflationary than central bank lending.

[sirgonzo420]

i'm registering platinumismoney.com

can I be Ponce?

[madfranks]

Also, consider, one of the "tools" the Fed employs is the ability to deflate the money supply by selling it's "assets" and the money they receive simply disappears into the void from which it was created. These trillion dollar coins would not be able to be called-in in attempts to deflate and stabilize the money supply, they would be permanent additions to the money supply.

[chad]

sirgonzo420? is like i said to the pretty girl at the senior store in the big town...to be ponce is to know not to question.

good morning to all........................first post of the day.

[Dogman]

can I be Ponce?


sirgonzo420? is like i said to the pretty girl at the senior store in the big town...to be ponce is to know not to question.

good morning to all........................first post of the day.

http://thesocialpath.typepad.com/.a/6a00e0099496db8833010536319d86970c-500wi

There can only be one!

[mamboni]

sure, but i'll probably have to perma ban you after your first post.

Cool dude! LOL LOL LOL LOL

[vacuum]

After the first couple are minted, why not just mint 16 more and pay off the debt?

[gunDriller]

maybe if they had the Lord's Prayer and/or the Bill of Rights engraved on them ?


though i think God will let the country formerly known as the "USA", reap what it has sown - currency with no intrinsic calue, losing whatever value it derives from common agreement.

for example - China dumping the $. if they don't agree that the US $ is worth anything ...


i heard the Chinese laughed REALLY HARD at Geithner during one of his previous trips to China.

i'd bet they would laugh even harder if some US bankster went to China & presented the "Platinum Trillion Dollar Coin" concept. might laugh so hard they get a hernia.

like the Chinese are really going to say, "oh yeah, we'll take 2 of those."

[Sparky]

The reason the fiat system "works" is because people don't (yet) recognize it as ludicrous. Money is a matter of faith. A trillion dollars in platinum coinage would be immediately viewed by the public as ludicrous, so it would buckle the existing faith in the money system. So the idea isn't feasible.

[madfranks]

The reason the fiat system "works" is because people don't (yet) recognize it as ludicrous. Money is a matter of faith. A trillion dollars in platinum coinage would be immediately viewed by the public as ludicrous, so it would buckle the existing faith in the money system. So the idea isn't feasible.

Unfortunately we may be at the point where the majority of people in this country wouldn't understand what was going on if it did happen, and their faith would remain intact. Most people would think, "why didn't they do this sooner?"

[osoab]

A Challenge to Business Insider and Huff Post (http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-01-04/challenge-business-insider-and-huff-post)

[Neuro]

A trillion dollar coin cant be inflationary at this point, because it can't circulate, but I guess the treasury after minting it could give it to the federal reserve bank in exchange for the treasury bonds they hold, but why use a rare and expensive metal like platinum? A copperplated tenth of an ounce of zinc would suffice I think. The minor issue I could foresee is that the federal reserve may have a small educational problem explaining how the FRN's and other debt instruments are ultimately backed by a couple of small zinc slugs, but hey that's their problem, they have been payed in full with lawfull money for the outstanding US Debt... ;D

[mamboni]

The reason the fiat system "works" is because people don't (yet) recognize it as ludicrous. Money is a matter of faith. A trillion dollars in platinum coinage would be immediately viewed by the public as ludicrous, so it would buckle the existing faith in the money system. So the idea isn't feasible.


You give people in America far too much credit for thinking and understanding economics and monetary policy. They are total morons, excepting present company. I'd wager that not one in a thousand random adults understand our monetary system, the FED and inflation.

[PlatinumBlonde]

A trillion dollar coin cant be inflationary at this point, because it can't circulate, but I guess the treasury after minting it could give it to the federal reserve bank in exchange for the treasury bonds they hold, but why use a rare and expensive metal like platinum? A copperplated tenth of an ounce of zinc would suffice I think. The minor issue I could foresee is that the federal reserve may have a small educational problem explaining how the FRN's and other debt instruments are ultimately backed by a couple of small zinc slugs, but hey that's their problem, they have been payed in full with lawfull money for the outstanding US Debt... ;D

Take it a step further and give the FED a coin made out of depleted uranium..

[mamboni]

A trillion dollar coin cant be inflationary at this point, because it can't circulate, but I guess the treasury after minting it could give it to the federal reserve bank in exchange for the treasury bonds they hold, but why use a rare and expensive metal like platinum? A copperplated tenth of an ounce of zinc would suffice I think. The minor issue I could foresee is that the federal reserve may have a small educational problem explaining how the FRN's and other debt instruments are ultimately backed by a couple of small zinc slugs, but hey that's their problem, they have been payed in full with lawfull money for the outstanding US Debt... ;D

It is inflationary because the FED would issue currency against said magic coins, specifically credit to the Congress to spend into the economy on welfare and transfer payments, pork, bribes, subsidies and a bloated military. John Q. Public will pay more in inflation and have his standard of living degraded further. Of course, this will not fly because the FED will take umbrage with the Treasury trying to pull their scam: issuing unbacked currency!!!!

[osoab]

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden)
Putting A Trillion Dollars Of Platinum In Perspective (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-04/putting-trillion-dollars-platinum-perspective)

Submitted by Tyler Durden (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden) on 01/04/2013 - 14:12 So you want a trillion dollar platinum coin? Ok: here are some facts...
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/12-2/trillion%20platinum_1.jpg

[gunDriller]

the atomic weight of Platinum is 195.084 grams (195.1 grams per 'mole' of Platinum, 6.022 x 10^23 atoms.)

one troy ounce ~ 31.1 grams.

so one troy ounce is .1594 moles.

so a one ounce Platinum round has .960 x 10^23 atoms of Platinum, 9.60 x 10^22 atoms.


1 trillion, a million million = 10^12.


so $1 = 9.60 x 10^10 atoms of Platinum.


we just need to find a scale that can weigh in fractions of a picogram.

or maybe they can have electronic tunneling microscopes at the checkout stand.


"how much is that doggie in the window ?"

"$20".

"OK, here's 192 x 10^10 Platinum atoms. AKA 31.1 * 20 picograms of Platinum."

[mick silver]

what ever happens just dont f with my free phone

[madfranks]

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden)
Putting A Trillion Dollars Of Platinum In Perspective (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-04/putting-trillion-dollars-platinum-perspective)

Submitted by Tyler Durden (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden) on 01/04/2013 - 14:12 So you want a trillion dollar platinum coin? Ok: here are some facts...
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/12-2/trillion%20platinum_1.jpg

That's only if the platinum value has to match the face value, which is not a part of this plan. The only reason it has to be platinum is because the face values of coins minted in every other metal is set by law. Meaning, by law, gold eagles have to be either $5, $10, $25 or $50 face, and silver eagle by law are $1 face. No such restriction exists for platinum coins, so they can make a 1/10oz platinum coin with a $1 trillion face value.

[Libertytree]

I wonder if the rare Platinum Monkey turds are being considered for the quadrillion dollar coin?

[Serpo]

save the economy? what economy ,there is more debt than anything,there is nothing to save.......


my answer is NO

[Neuro]

It is inflationary because the FED would issue currency against said magic coins, specifically credit to the Congress to spend into the economy on welfare and transfer payments, pork, bribes, subsidies and a bloated military. John Q. Public will pay more in inflation and have his standard of living degraded further. Of course, this will not fly because the FED will take umbrage with the Treasury trying to pull their scam: issuing unbacked currency!!!!
They do the same thing now, but without the coins...

[EE_]

save the economy? what economy ,there is more debt than anything,there is nothing to save.......


my answer is NO

Who's economy are we talking about saving...the banking elite? This economy runs on debt.
No one cares about the poor and suffering...except the poor and suffering.

[Neuro]

Who's economy are we talking about saving...the banking elite? This economy runs on debt.
No one cares about the poor and suffering...except the poor and suffering.
Actually they don't care about poor and suffering that much either they are waiting for the next episode of murikan idle...

[gunDriller]

I wonder if the rare Platinum Monkey turds are being considered for the quadrillion dollar coin?

God must be doing a Face-Palm, when he sees the US pretending to address their economic problems with a 'special' one Trillion platinum coin.

http://www.themeparkreview.com/forum/files/jesus-facepalm_0.jpg

[palani]

Everything not prohibited is compulsory.

Lawful commands receive a strict interpretation, but unlawful, a wide or broad construction. Bacon's Max. Reg. 16.

[AndreaGail]

sirgonzo420? is like i said to the pretty girl at the senior store in the big town...to be ponce is to know not to question.

good morning to all........................first post of the day.

this post made my day! haha

[Twisted Titan]

The reason the fiat system "works" is because people don't (yet) recognize it as ludicrous. Money is a matter of faith. A trillion dollars in platinum coinage would be immediately viewed by the public as ludicrous, so it would buckle the existing faith in the money system. So the idea isn't feasible.



I forgot who but a famous professor or banker once said.


The creation of what is called money is so simple a process THE MIND IS ACTUALLY REPELLED BY THE EXPLAINATION

[mamboni]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8lcemqYgmw

[foolsgold]

this is now the front page story on huffpo. read the comments. classic.

What would happen if the treasury minted 17 of these coins, gave them to the FED and said our national debt is paid off....FU?

I guess our debt would be paid off but our ability to borrow would be constrained a little ;-)

[palani]

The creation of what is called money is so simple a process THE MIND IS ACTUALLY REPELLED BY THE EXPLAINATION

Take any application or government form. Endorse the back of it as DEPOSIT ONLY $20,000,000 (or whatever sum you like) dollars Lawful Money of Account and give it an otherwise unrestricted full signature endorsement. Ship it off to Treasury by registered mail and use the registered mailing number as the bond number. Direct them to make payments from the deposited amount as you so direct.

[Libertarian_Guard]

What would happen if the treasury minted 17 of these coins, gave them to the FED and said our national debt is paid off....FU?

Might as well go one better, have them mint-up 34 or so and call it a 17 trillion dollar surplus.

I guess our debt would be paid off but our ability to borrow would be constrained a little ;-)

Due to flat-lined interest rates, our ability to borrow has become a shell game!



http://i45.tinypic.com/wceosn.jpg

[agnut]

A trillion dollar platinum coin ? Tulip bulb mania redux ?

The whole idea is certifiably financially insane.

And in keeping with this line of loony tunes thinking, how about where this sooo valuable coin should be stored ?

How about the same place as the over two trillion dollar non negotiable promissory note for the money taken (stolen) from the social security fund ? I hear it is in a filing cabinet somewhere and even has a lock securing it from thieves. Note that no one has yet tried to steal it. You see, even a thief is not as stupid as the general populace.

Makes me wonder why a trillion dollar whatever would need to be made of platinum while a two trillion whatever would be made of paper. Do they think the general public is so stupid as to believe that the coin has some validity over a paper promissory note ? It would appear so.

For you see, both are broken promises. And enacted right under our noses. Either could have been made of fecal matter but this could have raised a stink.

If such debts and obligations can be satisfied in such a manner, conversely cannot assets be represented in like manner ?

For instance, when a banker or politician calls for a limousine, why not send around a picture of a limousine. And when he desires a meal, why not cut out a picture of a gourmet dinner from Bon Appetit magazine ? And when he wants a drink of water, how about a picture of a waterfall ? And when he wants to breathe, how about a picture of an oxygen bottle ?

Beginning to get the picture ?

No, no, Fantasyland is for Disneyland. We live in the three dimensional world where mere pictures and paper representations are only descriptions of the real thing.

Are we so far gone from watching television that we believe that it is reality ?

If you don’t hold it, you don’t own it. Ponce’s most well known quote.

But if you can’t hold it, does it exist in the world ?

Hey, I’ve got an idea ! How about if we issue a whole bunch of coins (or paper notes) and trade them for all of the assets the FED has. You know, the Treasury bonds, property titles and anything they have a call on. It would be like buying Manhattan all over again with a handful of trinkets. Because the FED’s trillions created out of thin air must be returned from whence it came. From nowhere back to nowhere. It has been a 100 year nightmare from which humanity must awaken unless the fall kills us all.

A debt is legitimate if it has been entered into freely without coercion. Additionally, honesty is foundational. Have we the American people been educated as to the implications of this debt ? Have we ever seen the fine print ? Has this debt been put forth honestly ? Has the debt been taken on without our express consent ? We are studying the damage done after the event, not considering the ramifications before the agreement to enter into the debt. Are our children obligated for the debt when many have not even been born yet ? Just how many future generations can we allow to be indebted ?

Indebting the unborn is about the deepest depravity I can imagine.

No lender would enter an insane asylum or a school for the retarded in order to lend money to its occupants. Unpayable debt must be extinguished by way of pleading either insanity or retardation. Repudiation of debt does not have to be cleared by way of bankruptcy; it could be cleared by way of adjudication of deception and dishonesty. Where does the truth lie ?



Have you seen the movie “Idiocracy” ? A case of plagiarism could made against the producers. The plaintiffs ? Yep, the American people. We have become idiots and fools and the laughing stock of the world. Perhaps the US will become isolated not only in financial matters but also in sanity matters. While we had the movies “Escape From New York” and “Escape From L.A.”, perhaps the reality show is that “Escape From The United States” is our future. Go ahead and laugh but have you noticed that we cannot emigrate as easily as we once could ? Are we welcomed as we once were ? Can we take our wealth with us ? Years ago I made the jest that I would emigrate but Mars hasn’t yet been colonized. It isn’t funny any more. With the long arm of the law and one world government looming, there is literally nowhere to go. Well, maybe except the outback of some third world rainforest. And even that is iffy.

What happened to us ? Or more correctly, what did we allow to happen to us ? You know, it is our own fault. We must face this bitter truth before we can attempt to change the world.

I’m seeing people I know who are at the end of their rope. One has 4 children and no work coming in. Another’s unemployment is ending this week. Another couple has 6 children and almost no work. Even the free veggies and fruits I deliver are being grabbed up more intensely than just a few months ago. The desperation is palpable. Yesterday I got a case of loaves of bread and will distribute them this afternoon with the veggies and fruit. Nobody has wanted most of the citrus but I expect this to change soon. Why ? Because lemons, limes and oranges will help in preventing scurvy and other vitamin deficiencies. I do believe that it will get this bad.

The reason I brought this up is that desperate people will demand to be heard or they will riot. Like the middle east food riots, Americans will experience the same in time.

The nature of a process is that it takes time to come to fruition (note the cute play on words, a cosmic relief). While much of the world spends most of their income on food, we in the U.S. spend far less percentage wise. However, those on a shoestring budget are spending a much higher percentage than the average American. My point is that these folks are hidden in the statistics and will be the first to raise Hell since they are the closest to hunger. Can’t happen here in America, the breadbasket of the world ? Don’t kid yourself. I read that people here died of starvation in the last depression. I wouldn’t doubt it and even if it weren’t true I couldn’t guarantee that it won’t be far worse than in the 1930s.

Look, I’m seeing people around me who are losing hope. They see no way out of the black hole they are circling. Like the stark photos of depression era folks, we will see the same hollowed out look in those who have given up hope for the future. I am already having folks asking if I could use them for work around our property. Not business work but farm work. Sounds like the depression already with one big difference. They are asking $9 or $10 dollars per hour labor which I cannot afford to pay. In time they will be asking for work in trade for food or barter. We have a food program that was not in place in the last depression and this has made their needs different this time.

If the dollar collapses, we will face a whole new ball game. What will anything be worth ? What will be the intermediary for trade ? Gold ? Silver? Toilet paper ? When currency leaves the stage, barter follows. And even though I am a proponent in bartering and horse trading, I am not foolish enough to not understand that this would almost stop commerce in its tracks. This would be a time of chaos and danger. I will not venture to guess how long until the currency vacuum would be filled but it will not be peaceful. Too many will have lost their shirts and a populace that has suddenly lost everything and has no experience with poverty will freak out. This is why a rural bugout location is so important. The hope to let the chaos sweep over the cities and be resolved over time when a new equilibrium will be established. Those who are most adaptable will fare the best. Those who are inflexible will be broken. It is that simple.

I believe that the recent militarization of the law enforcement is their preparation for what they know is coming. Those in power must be aware that they will be blamed for all the future misery. Their buying of millions of rounds of ammo and the new gun laws are ominous indeed. The thing is that it is too late to stop the momentum of the American peoples’ preparations for defending themselves. The millions of guns purchased in the last few years were purchased with scarce money that could have been used for many other needs. Why such a high priority ? This needs no answer does it ? And do they think that a confiscatory gun law will succeed in obtaining all the guns, especially the ones bought in the last few years ? This belief is about as sane as a trillion dollar platinum coin.

Best wishes,

Agnut

Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough For Love

"No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders."
--Samuel Adams (1775)

"guns kill like spoons make you fat".

“If the federal government took over the Sahara Desert, in five years there would be a shortage of sand.”
Milton Friedman

"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants".
William Penn

[Sparky]

Even the general public would see a trillion dollar coin as preposterous.

But could the government get away with $10 and $20 coins, which were in circulation 80 years ago?

The dollar coin costs 18 cents to produce. The public has rejected them because they don't want to carry around all the weight.

But most people don't carry a wad of 10's and 20's. Maybe they wouldn't mind having two or three high-denomination coins in their pocket. If so, they would probably accept it as legitimate, unlike the trillion dollar coin. After a period of acceptance, they could introduce the $50 and $100 coin.

Quick, get Mr. Geithner on the phone...

[Libertytree]

Even the general public would see a trillion dollar coin as preposterous.

But could the government get away with $10 and $20 coins, which were in circulation 80 years ago?

The dollar coin costs 18 cents to produce. The public has rejected them because they don't want to carry around all the weight.

But most people don't carry a wad of 10's and 20's. Maybe they wouldn't mind having two or three high-denomination coins in their pocket. If so, they would probably accept it as legitimate, unlike the trillion dollar coin. After a period of acceptance, they could introduce the $50 and $100 coin.

Quick, get Mr. Geithner on the phone...

This has been suggested and rejected by the .gov. Most of us think it's because thgey don't have the gold to back it up or that all gold in the .gov vaults must be measured in 1930's prices or some such nonsense. But, platinum is a special metal and highly regarded, even though it's less than gold, but still if the sheep believe that Plat is special they very might well go for it. Of course that will be bolstered by the propaganda arm of the MSM.

I can actually see them pulling this off, even if it delays the inevitable for just a few months.

[madfranks]

Even the general public would see a trillion dollar coin as preposterous.

But could the government get away with $10 and $20 coins, which were in circulation 80 years ago?

The dollar coin costs 18 cents to produce. The public has rejected them because they don't want to carry around all the weight.

But most people don't carry a wad of 10's and 20's. Maybe they wouldn't mind having two or three high-denomination coins in their pocket. If so, they would probably accept it as legitimate, unlike the trillion dollar coin. After a period of acceptance, they could introduce the $50 and $100 coin.

Quick, get Mr. Geithner on the phone...

the problem is that under current law these coins would need to be made of platinum. That's the only metal coin whose denomination is not set by law, and can be issued under the authority of the mint with no additional legislation.

[Sparky]

the problem is that under current law these coins would need to be made of platinum. That's the only metal coin whose denomination is not set by law, and can be issued under the authority of the mint with no additional legislation.

Why can't they make them out of the same metal they use for the $1 coins?

[madfranks]

Why can't they make them out of the same metal they use for the $1 coins?

they could, it would just require a new law to authorize it. Under current law they can issue platinum coins in any desired denomination.

[vacuum]

I say just make it out of paper.

[Mouse]

I say just make it out of paper.

Digits. It's the same result either way.