here's how brainwashed people are about the firearm situation

[chad]

my in-laws are new york natives & are extremely left wing. think michael moore.

anyway, they are obsessed with the gun control debate. as my father in law says "if i was in control, they would all be illegal."

i've tried explaining to them numerous times the procedures you have to go through when buying a firearm, waiting periods, etc. no avail.

anyway, recently, with the advent of the ct shooting, they are really interested & intent on "getting rid of automatic weapons." i keep trying to explain to them that you can't go in to a gun store and buy machine guns, etc. without the whole atf stamp spiel, but they are buying none of it. they watch tv a lot, and they KNOW you can buy machine guns at gun shows and at gun stores. they wouldn't be talking about it on tv if it wasn't true.

this morning i blew a gasket. i made my father in law get in my truck, and i drove him to gander mountain. i made him go ask one of the gun guys in the gun department if they had any "automatic weapons" for sale. of course, the gun guy laughed and told him the same thing i've been telling him.

we leave.

about halfway home, he's back in to it again. "they just didn't have any left in stock there because people have been buying them all up, but i bet you can buy them somewhere else."
i make an immediate detour to another gun store i know of. we do the same routine.

i just dropped him off at home. he's still convinced you can buy them, "because otherwise they wouldn't be talking about it on tv, and besides, where did that adam lanza kid get a fully automatic machine if you can't buy one."

this is the idiocy we are dealing with, folks.

[Dogman]

Well he seen automatic firearms on tv and in movies so it's got to be true that those evil guns
are everywhere!

You know it's a fact and true because he saw it on tv!

[steyr_m]

Yeah, I went through the whole reasoning this with a girl at work. She thinks all guns should be banned.

The thing is that these left wing types only go on emotion -- facts and figures mean nothing. They will never be swayed. Think the Terminator movie for the phrase below...

Liberals will not stop, ever -- until your guns are gone!

[Cebu_4_2]

Cut their cable line, argument ends.

[Heimdhal]

what was it Morpheus said, something like: "After a certain age, we dont wake people up from the Matrix; the mind cant take it and rejects the new reality"

That age is different for everyone, but some are so far gone, it just isnt going to happen. Most of my family is this way, also.

[midnight rambler]

I realize they're your in-laws and all, however I'd cut right to the chase:

"So...you're in favor of genocide, right? Because that's what all this nonsense is going to lead to - history tells us this. Do you *really* think it's appropriate for the state to have a monopoly on force?? How would you feel if it was the 'conservative republicans' (or any other ideology you find repugnant for that matter) who had the monopoly of force instead of your hero Zero??"

Then ask him about his hero Zero killing thousands of people with drones in countries we are supposedly not at war with, including killing US citizens without providing due process.

[joboo]

http://i46.tinypic.com/2i220id.png

[sunshine05]

I had a discussion with my dad about this recently. He said "isn't it so awful about the CT shootings?" I said "yeah". (not wanting to tell him what I really believe about it because that didn't go over well when I told him I believed 9/11 was an inside job). Then he said "I think they should ban all assault rifles because they are only designed for killing. People don't use them for hunting"

I said " Yes, but we have the right to protect ourselves from tyranny. This isn't about hunting. If the govt can have them, we can have them." He said "I'm not worried about the government". That was the end of that discussion. I can't even go there. This call was supposed to be about wishing him a Merry Christmas. I really wish he hadn't brought up the shooting because I can't get into all of this with him anymore.

[midnight rambler]

"I'm not worried about the government"

At some point we HAVE to confront people with this attitude, doesn't matter who they are - imo.

"Do you think that those oppressed and killed by the likes of Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin 'worried' about 'the government' at any point in their lives?"

[BarnkleBob]

"OVER 50% OF U.S. MURDERS ARE COMMITTED BY BLACKS WHO MAKE UP ONLY 13% OF TOTAL POPULATION" Give them the statistics! Let the stats talk.... JMO

[Shami-Amourae]

I realize they're your in-laws and all, however I'd cut right to the chase:

"So...you're in favor of genocide, right? Because that's what all this nonsense is going to lead to - history tells us this. Do you *really* think it's appropriate for the state to have a monopoly on force?? How would you feel if it was the 'conservative republicans' (or any other ideology you find repugnant for that matter) who had the monopoly of force instead of your hero Zero??"

Then ask him about his hero Zero killing thousands of people with drones in countries we are supposedly not at war with, including killing US citizens without providing due process.

That doesn't work with Liberals. Seriously. I've tried it. They are all fucking retarded. I know, I used to be a hard core Leftest. You ignore everything you are told and think to yourself "What a horrible racist!"

Leftism is emotional Elitism, pure and simple. Logic and reason don't work with these people. Especially the older ones. With younger Leftests it's easier to wake them up since that's the only garbage they know. If someone is dumb enough to be a Leftest at that age you should make sure to keep them out of rainstorms since when they see feel the rain dropping on their head they'll keep looking up and drown in it, they are that stupid.

Liberals are ELITISTS. They are the type of people who sniff their own farts and smile smuggly, thinking they are so beautiful.

[chad]

what shami said. they're educated people, ran 2 bakeries for 30+ years, but they are a special kind of retarded. they always bitch about the government in their personal lives day to day, but in the large scheme of things, if it's television government, they fucking LOVE IT. the government never does much of anything wrong, all of that stuff like rambler mentioned isn't real becasue it's not on chris matthews or meet the press. if it was really important, it would be on those shows. they seems to think it impossible for government to have any bad tricks up its sleeves. it's like they're hypnotized by the stupid.

i brought up the totalitarian gov angle over christmas. my brother in law got it and thought about it (ultimately decided it would never happen though), but as for the 80 year olds, there's NO WAY anything bad can happen with big O at the helm. he cares about us.

[midnight rambler]

They're apparently in their happy bubble, and that's where they will perish - still willfully ignorant when they pass. Their souls will not have evolved, grown or developed beyond what they were when they were young children. They will have left this world learning absolutely nothing, but what's worse, they will have helped the dark force grow (wittingly or unwittingly, doesn't really matter). jmo

[chad]

They're apparently in their happy bubble, and that's where they will perish - still willfully ignorant when they pass. Their souls will not have evolved, grown or developed beyond what they were when they were young children. They will have left this world learning absolutely nothing, but what's worse, they will have helped the dark force grow (wittingly or unwittingly, doesn't really matter). jmo

nope, you're pretty much spot on.

[midnight rambler]

Personally, I would still be inclined to confront them about the 160+ children their hero Zero has killed with drone strikes in Pakistan...DO THESE BROWN SKINNED BABIES IN ANOTHER COUNTRY NOT MATTER?!?!?!?!

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/drone3_dees.jpg

[chad]

Personally, I would still be inclined to confront them about the 160+ children their hero Zero has killed with drone strikes in Pakistan...DO THESE BROWN SKINNED BABIES IN ANOTHER COUNTRY NOT MATTER?!?!?!?!

he's keeping us safe "from terror" rambler. besides, "they can't do anything about that."

[midnight rambler]

he's keeping us safe "from terror" rambler. besides, "they can't do anything about that."

Holy shit!!! WE'RE BEING TERRA-IZED BY BROWN SKINNED BABIES IN PAKISTAN!!!

I did not know that!


"(We) can't do anything about that."

I would take exception to that.

[chad]

ultimately, i was absolutely amazed that i took him in to a firearms store, had the people who work explain that you cannot walk in off the street and buy machine guns, and yet he still believes it to be true. until today, i don't think i really truly grasped how brainwashed some people are. he was completely unwilling to accept the fact that what television and the new york times tells him might have the possibility of not being 100% true.

[mick silver]

you just got the wake up call chad

[BarnkleBob]

Just remember the TeeVee .gov believe anything generation is quickly dieing off.... IMO the centrist planners are in panic mode... the fabian socialist quasi commie propaganda is losing its effectiveness... In another 10 yrs these peeps wont be around, neither will their votes! Big changes coming with this generational die off!

[Norweger]

Optimism is cowardice.

[Hatha Sunahara]

Just remember the TeeVee .gov believe anything generation is quickly dieing off.... IMO the centrist planners are in panic mode... the fabian socialist quasi commie propaganda is losing its effectiveness... In another 10 yrs these peeps wont be around, neither will their votes! Big changes coming with this generational die off!

You are so optimistic Bob. I am reading a treatise called The Politics of Obedience, written by Etienne De La Boetie around 1550. More than 450 years ago. He is trying to understand why people allow themselves to be abused by tyrants. One of his observations is that people who are born into servitude, and know nothing of freedom from experiencing it. are not likely to throw off the yoke of tyranny.

Do you really think peoples votes count? Changes don't come from elections. They come from leaders who can get power through legitimate (not fraudulent) elections. The 'centrist planners' you refer to are global scale tyrants who look for leadership ability and kill it off in the bud. The reason people trust and obey the government is because they have had no leaders to teach them otherwise, and because they have been indoctrinated to think this way by the schools and the media. The generations to come will have the same vacuum of leadership that our current generation has. If sheep see other sheep following something, they will follow it too. If you want to see change, get a few sheep to follow you before the centrist planners kill you.


Hatha

[vacuum]

In these situations, I probably wouldn't try to change their views on gun control. It's not possible.

What needs to be done is to shatter their world view. It doesn't matter what does it, but they to be shocked, come face to face with something they could have never believed but none the less can't deny. It will be different for different people.

When there are two opposing views, and neither will budge, no progress will be made. So come at another angle, and if there are two opposing views again, then again go from a different angle. Find common ground and slowly expand from there until the first area of disagreement occurs, but this issue will be a fringe area for them.

So there are two key methods imo: either the irrefutable shock, or fringe issues

[mick silver]

as long as no one f with my free phone an free stuff most dont care as long as it a free ride in life . never having to think about how to live on ones own has alot to do with what we have today . never having to step up and do any thing is not good . most will never see for there selfs because they could not see the past

[gunDriller]

Optimism is cowardice.

Americans are allergic to news that is popularly considered "bad". e.g. info about the economy contracting, or the fact that the most effective way for teachers to protect their students is to Carry.

i wonder about other "First World" cultures. i use the term very loosely, i think America has gone off tracks enough that it deserves the label "Fourth World".

e.g. Sweden, Australia, Canada, etc.

do people in other wealthy countries have the same fixation on pseudo-optimism ?

[steyr_m]

and the jew york times tells him might have the possibility of not being 100% true.

fixed it for you

why doesn't <s></s> work?

[Cebu_4_2]

In these situations, I probably wouldn't try to change their views on gun control. It's not possible.

What needs to be done is to shatter their world view. It doesn't matter what does it, but they to be shocked, come face to face with something they could have never believed but none the less can't deny. It will be different for different people.

When there are two opposing views, and neither will budge, no progress will be made. So come at another angle, and if there are two opposing views again, then again go from a different angle. Find common ground and slowly expand from there until the first area of disagreement occurs, but this issue will be a fringe area for them.

So there are two key methods imo: either the irrefutable shock, or fringe issues

The shock value has worked for a few but it has not shocked others as they deny it... fuckem.

[Dogman]

fixed it for you

why doesn't <s></s> work?

Use
[ s ] ==== [ / s ]

[BarnkleBob]

@Hatha.... never in recorded history has there been a mass communications devices such as the internet, ipods, cell phones, etc... big changes are occurring even now.... they will grow exponentially once the dead wood is cleared... these communications are opening up the concepts of freedom & liberty across our planet... its in the gestation stage about to break into the expansion phase... a reduex of 1776!

[mamboni]

my in-laws are new york natives & are extremely left wing. think michael moore.

anyway, they are obsessed with the gun control debate. as my father in law says "if i was in control, they would all be illegal."

i've tried explaining to them numerous times the procedures you have to go through when buying a firearm, waiting periods, etc. no avail.

anyway, recently, with the advent of the ct shooting, they are really interested & intent on "getting rid of automatic weapons." i keep trying to explain to them that you can't go in to a gun store and buy machine guns, etc. without the whole atf stamp spiel, but they are buying none of it. they watch tv a lot, and they KNOW you can buy machine guns at gun shows and at gun stores. they wouldn't be talking about it on tv if it wasn't true.

this morning i blew a gasket. i made my father in law get in my truck, and i drove him to gander mountain. i made him go ask one of the gun guys in the gun department if they had any "automatic weapons" for sale. of course, the gun guy laughed and told him the same thing i've been telling him.

we leave.

about halfway home, he's back in to it again. "they just didn't have any left in stock there because people have been buying them all up, but i bet you can buy them somewhere else."
i make an immediate detour to another gun store i know of. we do the same routine.

i just dropped him off at home. he's still convinced you can buy them, "because otherwise they wouldn't be talking about it on tv, and besides, where did that adam lanza kid get a fully automatic machine if you can't buy one."

this is the idiocy we are dealing with, folks.

If he were my father-in-law, I'd have told him to fuck off a long time ago. You have a lot of patience with the willfully stupid - admirable.

Please ask your father-in-law:

Rape is illegal. Why are there still rapes committed?
Robbery is illegal. Why are there still robberies?
Murder is illegal. Why are there still murders?
What percentage of gun crimes are committed with illegal guns? Why don't you know this? You are not even qualified to have an opinion on gun control - you are ignorant.

[Cebu_4_2]

If he were my father-in-law, I'd have told him to fuck off a long time ago. You have a lot of patience with the willfully stupid - admirable.

Please ask your father-in-law:

Rape is illegal. Why are there still rapes committed?
Robbery is illegal. Why are there still robberies?
Murder is illegal. Why are there still murders?
What percentage of gun crimes are committed with illegal guns? Why don't you know this? You are not even qualified to have an opinion on gun control - you are ignorant.

That probably wouldn't go over well with the inlaws, let alone the wife.

[chad]

my wife is on board. she thinks they are retards as well. they are 84 and 86 though, so i let it go. i can't be beating up an 86 year old. i tried reason, after that, i am chalking it up to senility. or indifference. or as i said previously, retardeness.

[joboo]

How many billions wasted trying to ban drugs?.... program, after program, after program, all supposed to improve everything....layers deep of programs upon programs to improve on the previous program, and kids can still get drugs just as easy, or easier, than alcohol...which is all over the place, and legal.

ffs...

Ban them all tomorrow, and criminals with access to machine shop tools are going to start making them once they see how much they can sell them for....and run roughshod over the population.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Can't stress that enough.

Some people need pull their heads out of their ...... and to come to grips with reality.

They mean well, but are ultimately too stupid to realize it.

This is why countries aspire to get nuclear weapons....it's a deterrent to getting ransacked for resources (aka belongings), and a damn good one.

On the citizen level that same deterrent is a firearm.

[Cebu_4_2]

How many billions wasted trying to ban drugs?.... program, after program, after program, all supposed to improve everything....layers deep of programs upon programs to improve on the previous program, and kids can still get drugs just as easy, or easier, than alcohol...which is all over the place, and legal.

ffs...

Ban them all tomorrow, and criminals with access to machine shop tools are going to start making them once they see how much they can sell them for....and run roughshod over the population.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Can't stress that enough.

Some people need pull their heads out of their ...... and to come to grips with reality.

They mean well, but are ultimately too stupid to realize it.

This is why countries aspire to get nuclear weapons....it's a deterrent to getting ransacked for resources (aka belongings), and a damn good one.

On the citizen level that same deterrent is a firearm.

Let Libya be one example, name some others that didn't hold the nuke card.

[LuckyStrike]

Explain to them the importance of the Constitution. I use it on liberals and conservatives both. The Constitution is the rule of law, it binds the government without it we are in unchartered waters, bound by nothing but mob rule. If they don't like the 2nd Amendment and want to do away with it, that's fine, but what about the 1st? What about the 4th? Why not throw them all out and just stop pretending DC gives a shit about them? I mean honestly if these people are scared of guns and think the 2nd Amendment is BS what leg will they have to stand on about the next president who abolishes the first? You can't just enact legislation abolishing the bill of rights, that's not the way this country was set up.

Typically with conservatives I use a slightly different angle, talking about abortion saying that a government with the power to stop it also has the power to mandate it.

Everyone wants to disregard the Constitution when their party is in power and that is a fact, everyone clings to it when their party isn't. The bottom line on both examples is, you can't legislate morality. There are laws against murder and carrying a gun on school grounds, so what motherfucking moron believes the criminal is going to say "well I don't care about the life in prison/death penalty for murder, but I'll be damned if I'm going to possess an illegal weapon"

I blame the media 100%, if people got fair news, got to hear both sides, they wouldn't blindly go into war in the middle east, if people had heard about atrocities in gaza and the USS Liberty they wouldn't blindly support kikestan, but they never hear and they are never going to on TV, it is so controlled you'd be lucky to get a truthful sentence by them in an interview. They tell you what to think and you are free to think absolutely anything that you like, so long as it is inside this box.

[Libertytree]

Great remarks LS!

It's futile to engage with most folks over 70, I'm not generalizing, just saying "most".

The younger breed of dipshits get it full throttle, wide open! Set their world on fire, sit back and watch it burn. They can't win any of their arguments in open debate and no matter what happens right then and there the truth will rise to the top. Do your level best and then wash your hands of it, the rest is up to them.

[BarnkleBob]

Here ya go, no explaination required.... http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10-big-killers.jpg

[Libertytree]

Here ya go, no explaination required.... http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10-big-killers.jpg

Best graph I've EVER seen! Thanks again!

[joboo]

Here ya go, no explaination required.... http://shtfplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/10-big-killers.jpg


Is there a time frame on that graph?

That's the first thing it's going to be discredited over.

[Bobthetomato]

One thing that most people never question is that people in government are as pure as the wind driven snow. Yeah congress might be corrupt but that local employee, the guy who works for the EPA, or FDA are wonderful people who only want to help people. This has been ingrained into peoples thinking. Government is there to help and they are honest. If you can get people to question the infallible public servant you can start to get somewhere.

[joboo]

Personally, I would still be inclined to confront them about the 160+ children their hero Zero has killed with drone strikes in Pakistan...DO THESE BROWN SKINNED BABIES IN ANOTHER COUNTRY NOT MATTER?!?!?!?!

http://rense.com/1.imagesH/drone3_dees.jpg


Fist thing people use to tear that one down is "it's a war".

[zap]

My mom Finally sees the government as corrupt, I have been telling her this for years,(when they talk its all lies for their own benefit to fit their own agenda) although she still tells me, the constitution was written in the old days! We need to amend it, it is such a old document, maybe we should live by it !!!! (Grrrr) drives me nuts !

[LuckyStrike]

It's futile to engage with most folks over 70, I'm not generalizing, just saying "most".


I agree, I'd lower it to maybe 50. At least that's my experience, doesn't help when you are half someones age trying to challenge everything they have ever learned.

[Libertytree]

I agree, I'd lower it to maybe 50. At least that's my experience, doesn't help when you are half someones age trying to challenge everything they have ever learned.

Well, I'm 50 and I can deal with my age bracket (45-60 or so) but ant older than that then it's just all fer nothin.

[steyr_m]

Explain to them the importance of the Constitution. I use it on liberals and conservatives both. The Constitution is the rule of law, it binds the government without it we are in unchartered waters,

Like I said in a previous post, they don't care. Most of the people that you need to explain this to them think that the Constitution is a "living document". Emotion is what motivated them, not facts & figures...

[BarnkleBob]

First off most of the Plebs know the Declaration of Independence, Constitution & Bill of Rights as just mere words... most have never read these docs much less understand them... the great depression\WWII generations represent the fully programmed & propagandized generations... or is it that they know their crimes against their children & wont talk about it?

[midnight rambler]

Fist thing people use to tear that one down is "it's a war".

Then not only are such people willfully ignorant, they are also unmitigated pure evil as they support the absolute wickedness of those waging war on the people of a country we are NOT at war with and are in fact giving foreign aid to (>$17 BILLION since 2001).

[Twisted Titan]

what was it Morpheus said, something like: "After a certain age, we dont wake people up from the Matrix; the mind cant take it and rejects the new reality"

That age is different for everyone, but some are so far gone, it just isnt going to happen. Most of my family is this way, also.






The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it