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vacuum
19th April 2013, 09:23 PM
What does the forum think about this?
(source links at the end)


I have seen the future of Bitcoin, and it is bleak.

The Promise of Bitcoin

If you were to peak into my bedroom at night (please don’t), there’s a good chance you would see my wife sleeping soundly while I stare at the ceiling, running thought experiments about where Bitcoin is going. Like many other people, I have come to the conclusion that distributed currencies like Bitcoin are going to eventually be recognized as the most important technological innovation of the decade, if not the century. It seems clear to me that the rise of distributed currencies presents the biggest (and riskiest) investment opportunity I am likely to see in my lifetime; perhaps in a thousand lifetimes. It is critically important to understand where Bitcoin is going, and I am determined to do so.

My hundreds of hours of thought experiments have been productive. I published a whitepaper about the future of Bitcoin, and because of that paper I’ll have the great privilege of sitting on the “Bitcoin in the Future” panel at the 2013 Bitcoin Conference in San Jose. Through these years of deliberation I have satisfied myself that the answer to the “Trillion Dollar Question” of whether any form of distributed currency can ever achieve a stable price, is “yes”. (There are three ways this will happen, as I have written elsewhere (http://www.quora.com/Bitcoin/How-could-a-new-digital-currency-have-more-stable-prices-than-Bitcoin)).

I have been predicting for years that the world’s first trillionaire by USD valuation will be an early investor in distributed currency — quite possibly Satoshi Nakamoto, whoever he/she/it/they may be. I own a few bitcoins, and I intend to keep them until I find a more attractive investment (that is, I want to invest in whatever replaces bitcoin or builds on top of it).

To many people, this sounds like an implausibly rosy future, and for early adopters that is true — it feels like winning the lottery every day. However, for most other people, the ascendancy of distributed currency systems will feel like a disaster. If you are involved in Bitcoin now, you should prepare to be almost universally hated someday.

In this article, we will examine a few simple thought experiments to show how the rise of distributed currencies such as bitcoin could create massive social upheaval due to governments’ rapidly degrading capability to fulfill their core functions of taxation and regulation of commerce. We’ll see how the end result could be extremely painful for common citizens due to previously unimaginable wealth disparities, hyperinflation of previously stable government-backed fiat currencies, and a greatly empowered criminal class.

The Bleak Future of Fiat Currencies

Anarchists and hardcore libertarians love Bitcoin, but most people outside those circles are not in favor of completely doing away with their government. If you aren’t part of a fringe political movement, chances are there is something the government does that you like, whether it’s handing out entitlement money, killing enemies, putting people in prison, building dams and roads, funding research, or any number of other things. The government can do these things because the government can collect taxes, which in turn they can do because the flows of money are highly regulated and tracked at every level. Whether you are collecting a paycheck, buying furniture, cashing out investments, or simply dying and leaving an inheritance, the government knows about it and takes a cut.

For our first thought experiment, let’s imagine a world where distributed currencies like bitcoin have become wildly successful due to technological advances which make them easy to use and completely stable. In this world government-issued money is as good as dead. It may take a few years for everyone to realize it, but there will come a point when the ever-increasing outflows of money from fiat money into untaxable, unseizable decentralized currency will reach a tipping point, and we’ll have a financial panic like the world has never seen. Frightened lawmakers and banks will try to stop people from cashing out, but that will just increase the panic. Those who don’t get out before the door closes will be in dire straits indeed. This is the ultimate bank run — the run on the world’s central banks, and who could possibly step in and restore order?

When people think of hyperinflation, they usually envision a Zimbabwean printing press running around the clock in the dark corner of a mud hut, putting ever more zeroes on cheap paper. Has it ever occurred to you that hyperinflation can happen while the printing presses are off? The value of the money in your pocket is not ultimately guaranteed by your government, but by simple supply and demand. The government controls the supply, and we control the demand. If demand falls precipitously, we have hyperinflation without ever needing to print another dollar or euro. If people start fleeing government currencies en masse, hyperinflation is the inevitable result.

The good news is that you don’t need to worry about current government debt in this scenario. If government currencies lose their value rapidly, debts which previously seemed overwhelming suddenly become much more manageable. Perhaps your debt-laden government will someday completely pay off it’s national debt by simply selling a few gold bars and a couple national parks.

The Bleak Future of Retirement

For our next thought experiment, let’s consider what will happen to Grandma. For her whole life, she has carefully saved her money, and now she is living in reasonable comfort. She gets money and health care from the government, and she has her own savings to fall back on. Grandma has done everything right, including taking her savings out of the stock market; most of her savings are now invested in the safest asset known to man: U.S. Treasury Bonds.

Rather suddenly, things start to go wrong. At the same time all her expenses start skyrocketing, the government has a liquidity crisis; they are having trouble collecting taxes and can no longer pay for her health care. Her savings are still “safe” in the sense that she will get U.S. Dollars out of them, but that is little comfort when those dollars which should have lasted years can barely pay her weekly grocery bill.

Grandma’s retirement has been sabotaged by the rise of a new kind of money that she can’t even begin to understand. All she knows is that she did everything right, and now she has nothing.

The Bleak Future Wealth Disparities

All the world’s wealth has essentially been stolen, but by whom? By you, dear reader.

We’ll be very lucky if we aren’t all rounded up and summarily executed. Thankfully, you’ll be able to use some of that money to purchase protection, but I’m not at all convinced that it will be enough. A wrathful government backed by an enraged population is a fearful enemy. Satoshi foresaw this long ago, and I doubt he/she/it/they will ever voluntarily come into the light.

If there are enough of us, and we are very careful and charming, we may be physically safe. However, the massive displacement of wealth will still have some awful consequences. People argue all the time about the societal benefits and drawbacks of wealth disparities, and the rise of distributed currencies will create disparities that previously did not seem possible. It seems clear that there will be a lot of jobs created by the new wealthy, but whether the average person is better off or not, one thing is sure to rise: resentment. What right do we have to take all the wealth of the world and put it in our pockets? Sure, a nifty new idea should pay off for early visionaries, but nobody ever expected a new idea to suck all the wealth out of the world like a financial black hole!

The Bleak Future of Law Enforcement

This is where things get really bleak. Currently distributed currencies facilitate money laundering, black market commerce (the Silk Road), and insider trading (TorBroker). These applications in their current form are just a snowflake on the tip of the iceberg. Not only will they get MUCH bigger, but we will see applications which are much less savory. Historically, the “Dark Net” accessible by Tor and private networks has been nothing more than a hidey-hole for illegal files and a hangout for paranoid schizophrenics, but it is quickly becoming the platform of choice for large-scale illegal commerce.

For this thought experiment, we will imagine that your child has been kidnapped and put up for sale on “TorSlaver”. Their business plan is to kidnap children and sell them to the highest bidder, whether parent or pedophile. The winning bidder is sent the location of the child, probably bound and gagged and dumped somewhere. As long as they don’t get caught doing the kidnapping, the kidnappers can do this again and again with complete impunity. Once someone proves it can be done, copycats will come out of the woodwork, and it won’t matter if the first mover gets caught.

As a parent of three small children, I cannot describe to you how awful this makes me feel. I have always been a very reluctant bitcoin investor, for this very reason. I don’t invest in bitcoin because I think it will bring about a happy utopian world. Quite the opposite. I invest in bitcoin because the rise of distributed currency is inevitable, and owning some bitcoins seems to be the best way to prepare for the chaos ahead. And just maybe, if I position myself correctly, I can make things a little less awful.

The Government Strikes Back

Does anyone really expect the government to sit back quietly and watch while their currency is debased, terrorism is funded, and children are kidnapped? The only question is when and how they will strike back against these forces. While the government does have a lot of options, ultimately those options only slow things down. At some point, we collectively with our governments face a difficult choice between trying to survive this deadly storm or attempting to destroy all decentralized computer networks (including the internet). The former seems unthinkable, the latter, impossible.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this chaos gives rise to a strong, centralized, one-world government which gets its revenues by tightly reigning in freedom of commerce in order to collect taxes. For instance, I will not be surprised to see a requirement someday that every person buying or selling have an implant which tightly binds their identity to the sale. Perhaps the implant will even be located on the back of the right hand or the forehead! This may seem repugnant to you now, but wait until you have lived in the storm for a while before you call it impossible. The natural reaction to the deadly chaos of decentralized currency is for the populace to embrace increasingly centralized controls on commerce. The battle lines are only just starting to be drawn, and your guess is as good as mine for how it will play out.

What Should We Do?

We need people thinking about this. I’ll admit that many of the things I wrote about may not happen at all, or may happen very differently than I imagine. However, there are lots of people touting the fantastic benefits that bitcoin and its children can give us, and I don’t see anybody talking about how bad things could potentially get.

We need solutions. When the government finally starts taking decentralized currency seriously, it will probably be doing so in a state of panic. We need to be advising governments now about how they can survive the storm and protect their populace. We need to think of ways the government can pay for its most critical operations, and what legislation makes sense to mitigate these new risks while preserving as much freedom as we can.

The Lifeboat Foundation is attempting to provide this thinking, advice, and solutions. They are already getting ready for a new advisory board, culled from computer scientists, economists, and bitcoin experts. If you make a fortune from your investments in decentralized currency, I urge you to consider how you can help all the people harmed by these rapid changes. Many bitcoin enthusiasts seem to think they will get to retire on a private island with a harem and a stable of Italian sports cars. This is wrong. Bitcoin investors need to someday become bitcoin philanthropists, and our giving needs to be targeted at helping all the people we have harmed. The Lifeboat Foundation is one option, but I’m sure there will be others.

I first published this article on the blog of the Lifeboat Foundation: http://lifeboat.com/blog/2013/04/bitcoins-dystopian-future
Bitcoin forum version is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=180798.0
Reddit version is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1cos8x/bitcoins_dystopian_future/

tl;dr: Wildly successful distributed currencies could hurt a lot of people.

mick silver
19th April 2013, 09:35 PM
For instance, I will not be surprised to see a requirement someday that every person buying or selling have an implant which tightly binds their identity to the sale.

Jewboo
19th April 2013, 09:43 PM
(source links at the end)



http://i1.cpcache.com/product/71797865/singularity_bumper_bumper_sticker.jpg?color=White&height=240&width=240

Wacky Esoteric Bullshit (http://www.cafepress.com/lifeboatcom/2379656)

joboo
19th April 2013, 10:56 PM
Ja, good read. I tossed the same link into the bitcoin mainstream thread.

The comments after the article are just as good as the OP, hope to see more viewpoints posted as time goes on (it's tagged in my watch list) A lot of really nice brilliant minds on that forum. Great community.

The worlds first bitcoin trillionaire, if it comes to that, will need to do some soul searching. Will this new community rise up, and maintain the integrity it has now as a movement, and change the world for the better, or succumb to the same pitfalls that exist now?

Interesting to think about, as it may never materialize, but great food for thought just the same.

I do know there's an abundance of generosity in the community right now, as everone is openly helping each other. At what point will that change, if it does change? I don't know the answers, but a lesson on humanity is looming on the horizon.

It could be epic, just another disappointment, or the jack boots come out, and kick it all to #%^.

Perhaps a bit of all three.

Hillbilly
20th April 2013, 02:38 AM
Yep, Pedo's and Hitmen love bitcoin. I don't want to be in that sort of company.

Horn
20th April 2013, 04:39 AM
http://i1.cpcache.com/product/71797865/singularity_bumper_bumper_sticker.jpg?color=White&height=240&width=240

Wacky Esoteric Bullshit (http://www.cafepress.com/lifeboatcom/2379656)

Bitcoin is a singularity, along with Litecoin, Terracoin, and soon to be plethora of other JooJoocoins, probably reaching 666 in total.

An experiment in virtual finiteness, perhaps equivalent to the biblical story "Number of the Beast" when trust is removed from a system.

Ares
20th April 2013, 07:17 AM
Yep, Pedo's and Hitmen love bitcoin. I don't want to be in that sort of company.

They love dollar bills too, but you happily accept those without a second thought.

Ares
20th April 2013, 07:18 AM
Bitcoin is a singularity, along with Litecoin, Terracoin, and soon to be plethora of other JooJoocoins, probably reaching 666 in total.

An experiment in virtual finiteness, perhaps equivalent to the biblical story "Number of the Beast" when trust is removed from a system.

Bitcoin is trust in its mathematical equation that birthed its existence. You can keep your faith in man and government. I'll keep my faith in mathematics.

1 + 1 will ALWAYS equal 2

1 government + 1 Central Bank will always equal something that isn't fair for you.

Ares
20th April 2013, 07:23 AM
The author of this piece seems to think that we need government. Why? Honestly throughout human history what good have governments been? Starting wars for their own nefarious reasons, debasing their own currencies to live beyond their means, partnering and empowering money changers creating an "elite" class in a supposedly free society.

I'm sorry, but I see no benefit to government. Governments are slow, stupid and regulatory. Local populations are fast, responsive and even in a lot of cases PROACTIVE if they don't have a government slowing them down through regulations and meaningless legislation designed to impede them.

Ponce
20th April 2013, 08:33 AM
If bitcoins were to be the future the Fed would then already be in the bitcoins business but instead they are in the silver and gold buying business......by "Fed" I mean banks because they are both the same......you cannot hold bitcoins but you can hold silver and gold.

First post of the day......good morning to one and all.

V

Horn
20th April 2013, 10:29 AM
Bitcoin is trust in its mathematical equation that birthed its existence. You can keep your faith in man and government. I'll keep my faith in mathematics.

1 + 1 will ALWAYS equal 2

1 government + 1 Central Bank will always equal something that isn't fair for you.

Oh chuckle, chuckle, Ares.

We all know the pitfalls within a centralized bank or government, but faith in mathematics? There is no "faith" in mathematics, especially in finite mathematics.

Now does God have any interest whatsoever in financial "fairness"?




Joan Baez sings with Ares for Bitcoin religion, with a triple post mantra. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkNsEH1GD7Q

Hitch
20th April 2013, 10:50 AM
Bitcoin is a threat to the .gov monopoly money they control. What's to stop .gov from just making bitcoin illegal? Say, the next false flag was funded through bitcoin, the masses get enraged, a bill is passed making anyone who has bitcoins a felon. You get caught with a digital wallet = instant criminal. Would the price of bitcoins collapse? Would bitcoins then go back to just being used by pedophiles and hitman, as hillbilly suggested?

I like God's money, gold and silver. It's honest and I feel good losing it all in accidents....

Horn
20th April 2013, 10:57 AM
I like God's money, gold and silver. It's honest and I feel good losing it all in accidents....

I got an idea for us Hitcher.

We start a Bitcoin ourselves that is backed by Silver.

At any time you can bring your Bitcoin to our centralized bank & receive an equivalent 1 atom of Ag.

We'd only need like 1 silver mercury dime to start it. :)

Hillbilly
20th April 2013, 11:36 AM
They love dollar bills too, but you happily accept those without a second thought.

Actually I don't I prefer a good old fashioned trade to anything.

Hillbilly
20th April 2013, 11:39 AM
I got an idea for us Hitcher.

We start a Bitcoin ourselves that is backed by Silver.

At any time you can bring your Bitcoin to our centralized bank & receive an equivalent 1 atom of Ag.

We'd only need like 1 silver mercury dime to start it. :)

we could start trading in Colloidal Silver ;-) then again that might not be such a bad Idea.

vacuum
20th April 2013, 11:52 AM
It's a powerful tool, and like any tool, it can be used for good or evil. Criminals love guns, gold, and cash as well, but that doesn't make those things bad.

The interesting thing about this article is that it implies that, if the public isn't ready for the amount of freedom it offers, bitcoin could be a bad thing.

Ponce
20th April 2013, 12:29 PM
Let's call it ....."GSUS WAFERS"....always honest and pure :) ...... just think of how many Cristians investors we would have.

V

Horn
20th April 2013, 02:13 PM
Let's call it ....."GSUS WAFERS"....always honest and pure :) ...... just think of how many Cristians investors we would have.

V

Not bad Ponce, but to redeem for the real thing is more expensive than only Atoms of silver.

BitWaffers $0.01709 a pop

http://www.amazon.com/Communion-Wafers-1000-Broadman-Press/dp/0805470859

Son-of-Liberty
21st April 2013, 08:51 PM
Yep, Pedo's and Hitmen love bitcoin. I don't want to be in that sort of company.

You know what else Pedo's and hitmen like?

Cash.

You better stop using it.

madfranks
21st April 2013, 09:08 PM
The article makes a couple assumptions that are simply not correct, and without those assumptions the whole bitcoin "taking over the world" thing won't work.

First, he says that grandma did "everything right" by holding her life savings in fiat FRNs held by government guaranteed banks. That is incorrect, because as we all know, holding your life savings in fiat paper is a dangerous game, one that has cost an untold number of people their whole life savings over the course of modern history. No matter what it is that eventually takes out the dollar, when it happens, all these people "doing it right" are going to suffer, with or without bitcoin.

Second, he envisions a scenario where bitcoin takes out the rest of the world's monetary economies, which I don't think will ever happen. One strength of bitcoin is also it's weakness, the fact that it's an intangible, digital currency. There are magnitudes more people who need money than have smart phones or the ability to engage in digital transactions. Those people need cash. Cash will never go away, even if bitcoin becomes the new world currency. If that happens, underground market transactions will still want cash to transact with, so bitcoin will never replace that.

Still though, that was a very interesting read. Even though I believe the author went too far, it still reinforces the fact that cryptocurrencies are here to stay. Everyone on GSUS should really look at this as one of the best investment opportunities we may ever see.

Cebu_4_2
21st April 2013, 10:07 PM
Bitcoin ticker site dead: http://bitcoinity.org/markets

Hypertiger
22nd April 2013, 12:51 AM
Bit coins are a total joke...Your thought experiments don't work out if you don't understand how economics works.

The Government decrees what money is or fiat.

The Government says...this is money...or else starve.

Without a monetary system to bid up the price of bitcoins...bitcoins can't exist.

Resources back the money supply...

If you make bit coins money...and the supply runs out.

you find yoruself in a situation were there is enough resources to sustain civilization...Just no money to buy or sell the resources...unless you inflate the money supply...and with a money supply that doesn't inflate fast enough...the economy will collapse.

The bitcoin program is like a video game or a computer virus that just spits out a pile of ones and zeros to play with.

buy sell buy sell

cover short cover short

inflate deflate inflate deflate

up down up down

1 0 1 0

look I just made a fake bit coin data stream...now all I have to do is con you into thinking it's worth something...and it will be as valuable as a real bit coin data stream.

World of warcraft has been in the digital gold production biz for a while...and look at how that mining operation works.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam

vacuum
22nd April 2013, 01:10 AM
Hypertiger, don't think of bitcoin as money. Think of it as a transaction system. You want to get 100 gold coins from point A to point B.

If you try to take them on an airplane, they get confiscated. If you try to do a bank transfer, your money is tracked, taxed, there are fees, and held up until the transfer is "approved".

With bitcoin however, you can exchange your gold for BTC, send it, then convert it back. Bitcoin transaction fees might be $0.16 total.

Hypertiger
22nd April 2013, 01:15 AM
The future of money 2013 and the past 1929

See anything new under the sun?

Just keep making the same mistake over again and calling it new and improved...and sell it to the new born suckers...who are being born every minute or so...bits coins and suckers.

Maybe the top rules all below because they are ignorant of how the wealth transaction system of the exchange for mutual benift between the losers and winners works.

Hypertiger
22nd April 2013, 01:23 AM
That collapse on the bit coins stock market game happend on the new moon...the night when there is no moon visible...When it's best to commit crimes.

sirgonzo420
22nd April 2013, 05:55 AM
Yep, Pedo's and Hitmen love bitcoin. I don't want to be in that sort of company.

They love the "dollar" $$$ more.

madfranks
22nd April 2013, 06:21 AM
They love the "dollar" $$$ more.

Lol, you're the third person to tell him that in this thread.

sirgonzo420
22nd April 2013, 06:37 AM
Lol, you're the third person to tell him that in this thread.

lol... that's what I get for not reading the whole thread.

joboo
22nd April 2013, 08:21 AM
If it was a joke there would be no more file sharing In the world, and there are very serious lawyers behind it.

Horn
22nd April 2013, 08:39 AM
If it was a joke there would be no more file sharing In the world, and there are very serious lawyers behind it.

Lord knows they won't be the ones getting wiped out.

Ponce
22nd April 2013, 09:14 AM
Sitting here and smiling while looking at the 10 oz bar that I keep by my comp...."If you don't ra ra ra "

First constructive post of the day.......good morning to one and all.

V

Uncle Salty
22nd April 2013, 12:07 PM
Bit coins are a total joke...Your thought experiments don't work out if you don't understand how economics works.

The Government decrees what money is or fiat.

The Government says...this is money...or else starve.


Go ask daddy for permission to live and use money. How quaint.

Hypertiger
22nd April 2013, 12:27 PM
Yes money is created and owned by the top

The bottom rents it from the top and the cost to pay the rent is hidden in the prices of everything....This is how money has worked for all recorded history.

Hypertiger
22nd April 2013, 12:33 PM
Bit coins are nothing more than a greater fool game...It's nothing new...Just an old scam repackaged and sold as new

Horn
22nd April 2013, 12:34 PM
Yes money is created and owned by the top

The bottom rents it from the top and the cost to pay the rent is hidden in the prices of everything....This is how money has worked for all recorded history.

For the record, they're not trying to use Bitcoins as money Tiger.

They would just like to be able to barter chicken with solar powered video card ghost ops.

I suggested using eggs, but they thought those too fragile...

Uncle Salty
22nd April 2013, 12:38 PM
Yes money is created and owned by the top

The bottom rents it from the top and the cost to pay the rent is hidden in the prices of everything....This is how money has worked for all recorded history.

Wrong. Before there was a top, people found a way to buy and sell and trade using money of their creation. The top just took it over. They are the cancer of the productive.