Canine Question

[NOOB]

Can any of you guys recommend a breed and breeder for a medium to large breed dog. I have small dogs that I love dearly but I am looking to get a dog for protection. I cant afford the fully trained 30k german shepherds but I would like a dog that would be protective in a pinch.

[Bird dog]

Check out Shiloh Shepherds. It's a rare breed started from AKC German shepherds from the 70s. The lady who started them was from Germany and wanted to get the breed back to the dog she remembered from her childhood. Large, solid dog with a straight back that could do anything. I have two girls that are 90 pounds and 26/27 inches at the wither. One is protective and would defend us to the death, the other is a derp that loves to chase butterflies. Lol....

If you start investigating, stick with ISSR Shilohs.

http://www.shilohshepherds.org/Default.htm

Breeders
http://spartashilohs.com/

http://riverwindshilohs.com/

[govcheetos]

Lots of people will disagree with me, but i guess we all have our opinions. Rescue a black pit bull PUPPY from death row at your local animal control. Black pits are usually never adopted and get euthanized. You'll probably have to fill out paperwork, tell them you want it listed on the papers as a lab mix. Show it lots of love and raise it right. Take the time to train it properly, just don't keep it out in the backyard. He/she will be forever grateful and loving to you and your family for saving their life.

[milehi]

A Rhodesian Ridgeback. They can tear up a baboon. Mine would kill coyotes any chance he got. 140 pounds and canine teeth over an inch long. I had to put him down two months ago. I currently have two Weimaraners that are smarter than a 5th grader, have a great security dog bark and hold their own against the wildlife here in the mountains.

[General of Darkness]

What state are you in.

[zap]

Any pup you raise as part of your family (pack) will be protective of you and yours, its also good to let it live inside the house,(their territory) they will protect it from all who don't belong.

[General of Darkness]

A Rhodesian Ridgeback. They can tear up a baboon. Mine would kill coyotes any chance he got. 140 pounds and canine teeth over an inch long. I had to put him down two months ago. I currently have two Weimaraners that are smarter than a 5th grader, have a great security dog bark and hold their own against the wildlife here in the mountains.

milehi, it's really hard to get good Ridgebacks these days.

[midnight rambler]

I'll very likely have some black and tan male puppies available in about 4 months as I've a litter planned, out of Enzo's littermate Chanine. These are SERIOUS protection dogs with a proven background (5 out of 7 were titled to SchH 3 in a very closely related litter, that's very rare). They consistently exhibit deep, stable, full mouth bites These are sociable (they LOVE people and other dogs), high drive and clear-headed dogs, NO nerviness - you can totally trust them around people, they only bite bad guys. You can expect the males out of this litter to weigh 75-85#+. The well seasoned and well known trainer GoD works with keeps telling GoD that Enzo has the quickest strike of any dog he's ever worked, and he's worked close to 20k protection dogs over the years. NO BS, I've worked with these bloodlines since '95 and every single one of them bites the bad guy - no backing down, no cowardice, no hesitation. If you're interested PM me, I'll make you a deal well under the going rate for dogs of this caliber.

FWIW, the breeder I work with on Dobermanns also has *working* Rhodesian Ridgebacks (used for hunting feral hogs) - she has the Ridgebacks for going after four legged predators and Dobes for the two-legged variety. It took her a couple of years to find real working Ridgebacks, and THEN she had to convince the breeders to sell them to her.

[midnight rambler]

Any pup you raise as part of your family (pack) will be protective of you and yours, its also good to let it live inside the house,(their territory) they will protect it from all who don't belong.

There's a world of difference between barking and jumping right into the fight with no regard to surviving the encounter. The former isn't that difficult to get, the latter is almost impossible to get. A lot of people talk up how great their dogs are at *protecting* them, but when it gets down to it there are very few that have the courage and drive to go and bite a threatening bad guy who isn't intimidated by your 'protection dog'.

[midnight rambler]

Enzo's littermates Chico and Chanine -

5136

All maternal ancestors of this breeding are SchH 3 going back into the '70s. It is much more difficult to get SchH 3 on a female than a male, that's a very good indicator of how good these bloodlines are at protection work.

Obedience is the key to a good protection dog. Chanine shows here the kind of focus you want to see out of your working dog -

5137 5138

[midnight rambler]

One of the ancestors of these dogs, Jockel v. Mahuba bred and handled by the breeder I acquired Chanine's dam from, scored 97 pronounced in the protection phase (a very well known working dog in the late '80s). Note how at 6:06 she has a difficult time keeping a handle on him just before the sendout (and she's not a petite woman) -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIb8BUWq2hc

[Bonate]

We have a Great Dane that we couldn't live without. We adopted him at a much older age, but he is still incredibly loyal and very playful. Of course, a Great Dane might not class as a large dog, more like huge...ours is about 6'4 standing up and needs lot of runs and someone who can keep up...eek.

[zap]

Personally I dont like Doberman pinchers, sorry gOd and Rambler, I had a hybrid pit bull, I guess you'd call it ,she went everywhere with me she was my baby before I had one, I was in a parking lot in the wrong side of town sitting in the truck and a mexican came up to the drivers side window and she came across me to kill that guy,thank god I only left the window about 1/4 down , I am going to try to post a pic of pinkie.

[midnight rambler]

Personally I dont like Doberman pinchers

What's not to like? I think working Dobes make the perfect indoor dogs. The most intense, over the top female I've ever had was quiet as a church mouse inside the house (so long as there was nothing outside to trip her trigger) and didn't bother anything that wasn't on the floor (her domain).

And regarding your pet Pinkie, I'm sure you loved her very much but I bet you dollars to donuts I could make her back pedal and she wouldn't bite me unless cornered. Barking and biting are two entirely different things many folks get confused about (thinking that their very loud barking dog would actually advance and bite someone).

[zap]

Here we go Pinkie and knothead !

No MR she would bite you for looking at me funny, had it happen a couple of times, although .... at least she listened to me and let go and the folks didn't sue my ass.

edit;; To add she didn't bark at all, sorry just read all your post.

If I said watch em.... she would..... and if they came a little closer she would latch on..... aww she was a good dog!

[midnight rambler]

No MR she would bite you for looking at me funny, had it happen a couple of times, although .... at least she listened to me and let go

I'm certain your beloved Pinkie was a swell dog and all, but I'm also certain I could make her back down. A friend has this Australian Shepherd which rides in the back of his truck everywhere. This dog JEALOUSLY guards the back of my friend's truck and on a number of occasions this dog has bitten people who walk up going "Oh, what a cute dog!" and attempt to pet him. But this dog is a complete coward, a fear biter - and NOT stable (he's bitten girls in the face). I've dominated him in the past and this dog makes a WIDE swath around me yet doesn't do squat when I walk over him when he's lying down. This dog totally gets it - he knows I will effe him up. I submit a pet such as your Pinkie dog, as much as you loved her and vice versa, could just as easily be compelled to back up. The vast majority of folks just don't get it regarding 'protection' dogs (they don't know what they don't know). I didn't know until I experienced the difference, and the difference is like night and day.

There's definitely something to the concept of 'Dobermans will turn on their masters' because Dobes have a sense of fairness and when one crosses that threshold with a *hard* Dobermann there WILL be a fight. Enzo's sire nearly killed his first owner (seriously hurt, had to be put in intensive care) when he attempted to 'teach him a lesson'. Nearly 30 years ago I attempted to 'teach a lesson' to a hard Doberman that was returned to me and that dog would have chewed me to shreds had I not had a prong collar on him which I used to take him to the ground. From that point forward that dog wanted to kill me, and given the chance I'm relatively certain he would have. It's huge mistake to underestimate the fight drive in a hard dog and to try to dominate them (or 'teach them a lesson', 'show 'em who's boss', etc.) - all one can hope to do with a hard dog* is to co-exist. Raised by the same party from a young puppy and treated with mutual trust and respect there's never a problem (with stable dogs).

*there are really generally only three breeds which you can find a high level of hardness (as a result of very selective breeding) and those breeds are the GSD, Belgian Malinois, and working Dobes (no show dogs)

[steyr_m]

I'd get a Malinois [Belgian Shepherd]

I'm looking to get one next year

[steyr_m]

Enzo's littermates Chico and Chanine -

Good looking dogs. I've never seen a Dobermann w/o their ears cropped -- still good looking

[milehi]

milehi, it's really hard to get good Ridgebacks these days.

The one in the photo I posted was a rescue, but the original owners paid a handsome sum for him. The father was the current South African Champion and was imported to the US; the mother was the current Southern United States champion. I paid $250 for him and got him when he was seven months old through RR Rescue. His file folder that came with him was nearly an inch thick.

This thread had me contact RRR about adopting another RR. I also do home inspections for RRR.

Here he is at about a year old and 115 pounds.

[NOOB]

What state are you in.

Georgia

[General of Darkness]

Georgia

I'd recommend contact these clubs and going and watching. You can get a working dog for about 1/4 of the price of a POS show dog.

Georgia Chattahoochee Schutzhund Club (http://www.chattahoocheeschutzhundclub.com/)
Dave Chastain (dwchastain1@yahoo.com)
Roswell, GA
678-699-7945
Greater Atlanta Schutzhund Association (http://GASAworkingdogs.com)
Gary McGillivary (mcgillig@bellsouth.net?subject=Question%20from%20 USCA%20website.)
Tucker, GA
770-939-2490
Rising Star Working Dog Club (http://www.RisingStarWDC.com)
Steve Crawshaw (steverswdc@earthlink.net)
Senoia, GA
404-886-3391
Coal Mountain SchH Assoc. (http://www.CoalMtn.com)
Dennis Vander Linde (info@coalmtn.com?subject=Question%20from%20USCA%2 0website.)
Cumming, GA
770-781-5050
South Metro Atlanta Schutzhund Club (http://www.southmetroatl.com/)
Willie J Cooper Jr (wjcooperjr@gmail.com?subject=Question%20from%20US CA%20website.)
Sharpsburg, GA
404-886-2907

[NOOB]

*there are really generally only three breeds which you can find a high level of hardness (as a result of very selective breeding) and those breeds are the GSD, Belgian Malinois, and working Dobes (no show dogs)

What is the going rate for a well bred "hard" dog?

I grew up with a female shepard that was protective as all hell. I remember when I was a kid the insurance man would come around to collect premiums, great big fat guy. He would knock on the door than run to his car till my parents came outside. That dog wanted to eat him and he was terrified. That same dog bit a friend of mine in the face( kind of a warning bite I suppose) because he made a quick move across me to grab something.

My mom had to lock the dog in another room if she wanted to spank me. Looking back that was pretty funny.

[NOOB]

I'd recommend contact these clubs and going and watching. You can get a working dog for about 1/4 of the price of a POS show dog.

Georgia

Chattahoochee Schutzhund Club (http://www.chattahoocheeschutzhundclub.com/)
Dave Chastain (dwchastain1@yahoo.com)
Roswell, GA
678-699-7945
Greater Atlanta Schutzhund Association (http://GASAworkingdogs.com)
Gary McGillivary
Tucker, GA
770-939-2490
Rising Star Working Dog Club (http://www.RisingStarWDC.com)
Steve Crawshaw (steverswdc@earthlink.net)
Senoia, GA
404-886-3391
Coal Mountain SchH Assoc. (http://www.CoalMtn.com)
Dennis Vander Linde
Cumming, GA
770-781-5050
South Metro Atlanta Schutzhund Club (http://www.southmetroatl.com/)
Willie J Cooper Jr
Sharpsburg, GA
404-886-2907

Thanks. Do you recommend a certain level of training(professionals) or would normal family training be ok for a pet/ protection dog?

[General of Darkness]

Thanks. Do you recommend a certain level of training(professionals) or would normal family training be ok for a pet/ protection dog?

Well if you go visit a few clubs while they're training just watch what their doing and just mention you're looking for a dog that is for home protection. Keep in mind a dogs ability to bite and be aggressive is pure genetics. Nothing worse that fear biters because they aren't confident and you can't control them.

Also remember that working dogs are confident if trained property, and tend to be SAFER around family than most dogs because they know their roll.

[tater]

I agree with General and Rambler about fear biting dogs, nothing worse.
Another breed to give thought to is Fila Brasileiro...no fear, very confident and very protective, no training is needed for this breed to protect...it's bred into them.
My "Lil Gal" is 130 lbs and she will never back up and will be dead before I'm assaulted. Filas do not like strangers and need a strong "alpha" owner. Socializing them as pups will help you with keeping them under control as they get older. Ojeriza (sp?) an "aversion to strangers" occurs at 6 to 9 months and it's like flipping on a switch...If you entertain lots of guests this breed probably is not a good selection.
Oh, and they will not turn on their owners. Extremely loyal!

[EE_]

Some of my thoughts on dogs.
Not everyone should own an attack dog. I say this because not everyone has the right personality for strong willed working dogs. Dogs can sense if you are not the Alfa owner and it's possible for them to take control of you.

I also believe most med/large dogs are a great deterrent to thieves from robbing your home. Most will choose a home without dogs.

Now if you live in a bad neighborhood/area and are fearful of being assaulted, or robbed...or if you are not comfortable carrying a firearm, by all means look at the dogs discussed here.

Myself, my dogs are my companions...I look for loving, home oriented obedient dogs that come from top breeders.
For me, show dogs that are bread to very high standards, free of disease and health problems (most importantly), make better companions...where working dogs tend to just want to work.
They still can be very protective, depending on the breed.

You need to decide if you have the right personality to own a trained attack dog...or if you have the time to work them.

Dogs I've owned; all were great dogs!
Great Dane (goofus)
Rottweiler (loved children)
Irish Setter/Golden Retriever (1st most favorite dog)
Smooth Fox Terrier (Mr. personality)
Brittany (living)
Springer Spaniel
English Pointer (favorite awesome dog) (living)

[Libertytree]

Couple of questions for ya NOOB. Do you live in the country or in town/city? North or south GA? Do you have kids? If so what age(s)?

[midnight rambler]

What is the going rate for a well bred "hard" dog?

About $2,5k to $3k for a puppy - WHEN you can get one of the very few breeders of hard working dogs to sell you one (at least with working Dobermanns - Dobe people are weird in general). Adult dogs with titles can typically range into the tens of thousands, and the really outstanding ones have sold for six figures (however there can be a lot of hype involved on the high end).


I grew up with a female shepard that was protective as all hell. I remember when I was a kid the insurance man would come around to collect premiums, great big fat guy. He would knock on the door than run to his car till my parents came outside. That dog wanted to eat him and he was terrified. That same dog bit a friend of mine in the face ( kind of a warning bite I suppose) because he made a quick move across me to grab something.

My mom had to lock the dog in another room if she wanted to spank me. Looking back that was pretty funny.

A dog which is not clear-headed and one has to sometimes 'lock up' because it inadvertently goes off on someone or otherwise be concerned about biting someone merely for looking at you funny is not the sort of dog you can rely on ALL THE TIME. The dogs we bred are perfectly suitable for use as service dogs anywhere and under any conditions, provided they receive the appropriate training, management, and socialization. (this is where epigenetics comes into play) The fact is that all the females I have planned for the near future are earmarked for use as service dogs. These dogs are also perfectly adaptable for use as therapy dogs (again training, management, and socialization are key).

In your OP you mentioned protection dogs selling for $30k. The truth about trained protection dogs is that there's a cottage industry in Europe which churns out 'trained protection dogs'. This cottage industry sells these 'trained protection dogs' to importers in the states for oftentimes surprisingly cheap (like $3.5k up to $10k or more for outstanding examples). The US importers then fix an arbitrary price on these 'trained protection dogs', usually based upon their sales/marketing skills. $30k is nothing, I'm seeing these imported trained dogs selling for $35k to $85k (asking price). I've also seen some cases where these imported trained dogs sell for $12k to $15k. The thing is, a buyer in the states knows very little about the pedigree, background, or who bred and trained these dogs. There's generally very little transparency.

[midnight rambler]

they will not turn on their owners.

Then I submit it's not a hard dog. 'Hard' working dogs will definitely bite your ass in training if you keep cranking and yanking on 'em. Those who train working dogs prefer to train the sort of dog that will get pissed off(!) at you if you cross a 'too much correction' threshold. One will never successfully 'teach a lesson' to a hard dog.

[NOOB]

Couple of questions for ya NOOB. Do you live in the country or in town/city? North or south GA? Do you have kids? If so what age(s)?


Suburbia, no kids

[midnight rambler]

Thanks. Do you recommend a certain level of training(professionals) or would normal family training be ok for a pet/ protection dog?

Most 'professional' dog trainers don't get hard working dogs, especially hard Dobermanns, so you have to be careful you don't get someone who permanently fouls up your dog. And 'normal family training' (what's that anyway?) won't cut it either. A good breeder will provide you with the necessary info and direction (e.g. socialization, building drive/focus, do's and don'ts, etc.) to train your working dog. It's not at all that difficult, one does not have to be 'an expert', it simply takes time and effort on the front end.

[midnight rambler]

Not everyone should own an attack dog.

Please define 'attack dog'.

We don't sell 'attack dogs'.


dogs that come from top breeders.

What's a 'top breeder'?? ??? Someone who churns out dozens of puppies a year based upon their reputation is a 'top breeder' (numbers-wise)?

Kimbertal is considered by many to be 'one of the top breeders' and yet they produce the absolutely weakest dogs you could find. check out the volume they're capable of -

http://www.kimbertal.com/kennels/visual-tour#


For me, show dogs that are breed to very high standards

Who's standards?? What standards?? AKC standards? Beauty pageant standards?? lol FWIW when I had 'show line' (American) Dobermans I had this drop-dead gorgeous red male that weighed 100#, his name was Baron (named after the Red Baron). Baron was the world's biggest coward. I kept telling Baron I was going to have him stuffed when he was gone - he would have been a much bigger deterrent as a stuffed dog that simply stood there vs. the coward he was. lol AKC show standards have caused the development of structurally unsound GSDs, Dobes, and others in order to accomplish a 'certain look'. This is indisputable.


free of disease and health problems

Health testing is inconsistent and doesn't always give accurate results. Some dogs which test positive for some health defect wind up living very long lives while others which 'pass with flying colors' have been known to drop dead at a relatively young age a week later. What matters is the real world. Do you think they health test sled dogs used in the Iditarod or dogs used for hunting feral hogs? No, those breeders closely observe them and choose the ones they consider the most suitable - this certainly takes into account which ones provide the longest service lives.


show dogs...make better companions...where working dogs tend to just want to work.

This is so wrong I just don't where to start. lol I will say this - I've found that high drive dogs are a trip and an absolute joy to have ('cause they can be such a challenge, but once past that they are the most incredible dogs [due to their drives]).

[NOOB]

Great info everyone. My two terriers are getting old(aint we all) and its time to add another member to the family. I have grown very fond of my jacks and smaller dogs in general but my neighborhood is not getting any safer hence the initial post.
I have a fenced yard in the suburbs and my dogs stay inside. We train are dogs somewhat(come is a must for terriers) but I am not a trainer by a long shot. I am also not looking for a new hobby but could invest some time with a puppy for formal training.


M. Rambler--- Damn. dogs have gotten expensive. Probably the time tested you get what you pay for thing.

[midnight rambler]

I am also not looking for a new hobby but could invest some time with a puppy for formal training.


Training a good working lines puppy can take as little as 10-20 minutes a day (if it's an indoor dog which spends all available time with you at home). There's also the 'training' that's ongoing 24/7 (not as concentrated, happens moment by moment as necessary). And don't kid yourself - if you want a genuine working dog, even as an adult you need to spend at least 10 minutes (like two five minute sessions) a day keeping their obedience maintained. And it's also a good idea to walk with the dog at least 30-45 minutes a day (walking is good for you anyway, think of it as contributing to your own health maintenance).

I crate train mine from the youngest possible age and their crate is a safe/quiet spot for them, as well as keeping them from getting into trouble when my back is turned.


Damn. dogs have gotten expensive. Probably the time tested you get what you pay for thing.

Not necessarily true. I can point out to you 'top breeders' (lol) who hype their show line stuff selling at $3k to $4k for a show line (IMPORTED!!!) Doberman puppy, and none of their dogs will bite the bad guy, they're absolutely worthless as protection dogs. Oh, but their dogs do so well in the show ring (all show and no go).

[NOOB]

we also crate train our dogs

[General of Darkness]

Joel sold his puppies for $1,500 a piece and both the mother and father have probably 7 Schutzhund 3's a piece. So you should be able to get an excellent dog for $1,500. Remember this is a 10 YEAR INVESTMENT, so purchase wisely.

[NOOB]

I guess it boils down to I want a dog that will sit, stay, come and be a part of the family but one that will be protective of my family should the need arise. I know most people think their dogs will automatically do that (be protective) but I dont think that is the case.

[NOOB]

Joel sold his puppies for $1,500 a piece and both the mother and father have probably 7 Schutzhund 3's a piece. So you should be able to get an excellent dog for $1,500. Remember this is a 10 YEAR INVESTMENT, so purchase wisely.

I will get by one of the clubs you listed earlier sometime in the next few weeks on a training day and check it out. I am not in a big hurry and try to do my research before purchasing anything. A animal is a lifelong thing to me.

$1500 is doable, much more than that and he better be able to cook and clean.

[Libertytree]

I think ya might want to check into a black or chocolate Lab, they're large, loyal as hell, fierce and great house dogs.

If you were further north and had more room I'd recommend a Newfoundland, that's the best breed I've had the pleasure of owning and training.

[milehi]

Maybe a mutt is all you need. The absolute best all around dog I've had was a Rhodesian Ridgeback/GSD mix that I got from some hillbilly in Oregon's Coast Range. He could mountain bike 40 miles in a day, let the kids ride on his back, and he bit people when they deserved it.

[midnight rambler]

I guess it boils down to I want a dog that will sit, stay, come and be a part of the family but one that will be protective of my family should the need arise. I know most people think their dogs will automatically do that (be protective) but I dont think that is the case.

Pretty much any dog can be trained to do the obedience thing you're seeking. And many dogs will 'alert' to a suspected problem, including the ankle biters . The distinction is: will my dog have what it takes to fearlessly charge into the fight with power, speed, and accuracy under ALL circumstances or conditions without any hesitation whatsoever, or will it shrink back when faced with a menacing threat?

To tell you where I'm coming from - many years ago I was very seriously injured in an ag assault with a deadly weapon. After being hurt I let my American show line Dobe female out. She bolted for home at the first gunshot. The dogs I have now are the extreme opposite. From my perspective I do not want any dog which will shrink and urinate on itself the moment things turn into a shit blizzard, instead I want a dog that has courage along with over the top defense and fight drives to fearlessly charge into the fight despite everything else. Any dog that distracts you by either falling back or going off at an inappropriate time is definitely a liability and not an asset.

[NOOB]

Pretty much any dog can be trained to do the obedience thing you're seeking. And many dogs will 'alert' to a suspected problem, including the ankle biters . The distinction is: will my dog have what it takes to fearlessly charge into the fight with power, speed, and accuracy under ALL circumstances or conditions without any hesitation whatsoever, or will it shrink back when faced with a menacing threat?

To tell you where I'm coming from - many years ago I was very seriously injured in an ag assault with a deadly weapon. After being hurt I let my American show line Dobe female out. She bolted for home at the first gunshot. The dogs I have now are the extreme opposite. From my perspective I do not want any dog which will shrink and urinate on itself the moment things turn into a shit blizzard, instead I want a dog that has courage along with over the top defense and fight drives to fearlessly charge into the fight despite everything else.

That's what I want but my concern is/was are dogs that will get it on also good normal pets.

[midnight rambler]

That's what I want but my concern is/was are dogs that will get it on also good normal pets.

My dogs are perfectly normal as pets, in fact to everyone they met that's all they are. Strangers can easily approach my dogs, they demonstrate zero nerviness. When one them happens to get away from me by escaping through a gate that someone has left open I never have to be concerned with them bothering anyone in the neighborhood in the least, my only real concern is them getting hit by a car. Every one of the dogs I've had from this bloodline LOVE people and are VERY outgoing except for two females which were aloof (yet still very friendly to strangers) and those two never went off on anyone (who wasn't doing something to agitate them). As I posted earlier, dogs of this bloodline are well suited for use as therapy dogs and have been used as such in the past.

[midnight rambler]

I should point out that of all the dogs of this bloodline we have none have EVER bitten ANYONE who wasn't agitating them while wearing protective gear with only one exception that I'm aware of. That would be Avatar, the sire of Enzo, Chanine, and Chico. Avatar seriously fucked up two people, the first his original owner* from a puppy who thought he was going to 'teach him a lesson' at four years old and the other was some predator who was thinking he was going to sexually assault the breeder I work with. This assailant walked up to her repeatedly saying "I'm not afraid of your dog." as he grabbed her, then Avatar took him down, ripping off a chunk of his face.

This is what Cindy Rhodes, a well-known/well-respected SchH person (she got out of Dobes due to the back-biting psycho Dobe people out there, she now breeds Malinois), has to say about Avatar:


I did breed to Avatar and loved the pups I got from him, unfortunately I never got females to keep back. My litter was only males. Avatar himself was IMO what a Dobermann should be. I kept him in my home for several weeks while Tina was in Florida. He had temperament, drive, good nerves and was a SERIOUS dude!!! I have seen lots of Avatar kids and they have the looks and temperament I like as well. Pretty with good working drives. My foundation bitch Elka was a Feus daughter and Avatar was linebred on Feus.

http://leerburg.com/webboard/printthread.php?topic_id=4702

*Avatar's original owner Mike had a license for big cats and large snakes in PA - while in ICU after Avatar ripped him to shreds he called up the breeder and told her, "I've got all these big cats and large snakes at home and this dog is the only animal I'm afraid of - COME GET THIS MF'ER!!!"

[gunDriller]

i've been attacked by a dog 2 or 3 times -

once, in Greece, by a mutt who got away from his fenced yard.

although i was on the ground, and he was on top trying to bite me (at least it looked like it), i just kept hitting him on the side of the head, using my forearms etc.


another time, my landlord had a little attack poodle. i made the mistake of sticking my hand in his doggie door to 'say hi'. DUH. he bit me, drew blood.


another time, i was chased by a German Shepherd while i was bicycling. in that case, it was just a matter of outrunning him. a little adrenaline rush, that's all :)

[tater]

MR, I'm not a trainer nor a breeder. I'm not sure what you mean by "hard". The Fila does not need to be trained to protect; it is their genetic disposition to protect their family, they're extremely loyal. The saying in Brazil is "loyal like a Fila"
The Fila is not an attack dog, they simply protect against perceived threats and in their minds all strangers are potential threats...this is where an alpha owner and obedience training comes in.

The only persons that would be able to "step over my girls" would be myself, son and ex wife. In fact the only way a stranger could "step over" them is if they were already dead or tranquilized. Your Dobermans are fantastic and well trained and I'm sure worth every penny I'm sure, so please know I'm not denigrating or even trying to compare. Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned...

[EE_]

[quote]Please define 'attack dog'.
A dog that is trained to bite on command.
I know you are trying to stay away from that stigma, understandably...but that is what you train them to do.



We don't sell 'attack dogs'.
Of course not, you don't need the liability that comes with that title. "Protection dogs" sounds much more friendly and harmless.


dogs that come from top breeders.

What's a 'top breeder'?? Someone who churns out dozens of puppies a year based upon their reputation is a 'top breeder' (numbers-wise)?
A good breeder is knowledgable in the science of mixing bloodlines and will not sell a poor quality dog.



Kimbertal is considered by many to be 'one of the top breeders' and yet they produce the absolutely weakest dogs you could find. check out the volume they're capable of -

http://www.kimbertal.com/kennels/visual-tour#
Sounds like a big breeder, not a quality breeder.


For me, show dogs that are breed to very high standards

Who's standards?? What standards?? AKC standards? Beauty pageant standards?? lol FWIW when I had 'show line' (American) Dobermans I had this drop-dead gorgeous red male that weighed 100#, his name was Baron (named after the Red Baron). Baron was the world's biggest coward. I kept telling Baron I was going to have him stuffed when he was gone - he would have been a much bigger deterrent as a stuffed dog that simply stood there vs. the coward he was. lol AKC show standards have caused the development of structurally unsound GSDs, Dobes, and others in order to accomplish a 'certain look'. This is indisputable.
Yes AKC, for health, temperment and breed standard. It doesn't mean you will get the perfect dog when you purchase one. But, you should get a dog that is very close to breed standarg and of good health.
If you are concerned about the possibility of having a dog that may cower, you should be looking for a trained attack dog...er, I mean "protection dog" in the first place.


free of disease and health problems

Health testing is inconsistent and doesn't always give accurate results. Some dogs which test positive for some health defect wind up living very long lives while others which 'pass with flying colors' have been known to drop dead at a relatively young age a week later. What matters is the real world. Do you think they health test sled dogs used in the Iditarod or dogs used for hunting feral hogs? No, those breeders closely observe them and choose the ones they consider the most suitable - this certainly takes into account which ones provide the longest service lives.
Agree, all a good breeder can do is eliminate dogs with a poor health history


show dogs...make better companions...where working dogs tend to just want to work.

This is so wrong I just don't where to start. lol I will say this - I've found that high drive dogs are a trip and an absolute joy to have ('cause they can be such a challenge, but once past that they are the most incredible dogs [due to their drives]).
This is not a rule of thumb, but it is true in certain breeds. Some show hunting dogs make better home pets, where some that come from a long line of working dogs are more focused on the hunt and less about the family.

One thing is for sure, dog people are very particular and biased towards certain breeds.
In the arena where politics are present, it's even worse.

I can only go by my knowledge, the books I've read and the shows, both show and working, I've been to.
I don't claim to be an expert.
I've had less then good dogs, good dogs and I've had great dogs...luck of the draw.

[midnight rambler]

A good breeder is knowledgable in the science of mixing bloodlines

'Mixing bloodlines' gives you exactly that - mixed bloodlines and mixed bloodlines yield a very wide range of results, i.e. NO consistency, the more 'mixing' (total outcrosses) one does, the further one gets away from one's target. This is known as 'genetic diversity' since there is greater diversity the more that outcrossing is done. A genuinely 'good breeder' pays very close attention to the coefficient of inbreeding and knows the history/background of the dogs which make up the top contributing ascendants (which is essentially what makes any particular dog what it is) in order to make real, positive contributions to the attributes of a particular breed rather than simply making a bred more 'diverse' or random, or to churn out large numbers of litters for $$$$. FWIW, Avatar has a COI of 40.6959% (the result of a brother/sister breeding), which is very high. Those who mistakenly *think* they understand breeding heavily outcross with little or no intentional linebreeding, and that's a complete crapshoot. Those that get it lean more toward linebreeding and/or inbreeding.

Avatar's top contributing ascendents are all Eschenhof and Nymphenburg dogs, some of very best and strongest working dogs from the early '70s into the mid-'80s - http://www.dobermannpedigrees.nl/modules/pedigree/coi.php?s=43367&d=43368&dogid=43739&detail=1


show dogs that are breed to very high standards

Show dogs could not possibly be more worthless as all the working ability has been bred out of them and they are strictly bred to be beauty pageant contestants. They are breed solely to a 'show' standard and how well they 'show' in the show ring (which includes toning them down temperament-wise). And this 'show standard' does NOT render a dog any more healthy than a dog which isn't bred to a 'show standard'. Don't kid yourself. Really.

BTW, FWIW there are some 'breeders' with cherished delusions that they can breed for ALL three attributes: temperament, confirmation, and health. They could not possibly be more mistaken and they are VERY confused - one can ONLY bred with a single objective in mind, and breeding for working ability as one's foremost goal leads to sound structure and good health results.


A dog that is trained to bite on command.

Anyone who trains a dog to 'bite on command' hasn't a clue. I equate that to someone who preaches that rapid fire is something one should be training to do. The main tool a dog has is its mouth (not just gripping, but barking as well), that's the first thing one needs to comprehend - everything flows from that imo. A dog is going to do what comes naturally to it according to its genetics and epigentics, with working dogs bred for protection this includes biting. A protection dog that cannot be controlled via obedience is a liability. Obedience above all else - which is why tractability and clear-headedness are so crucial.


Sounds like a big breeder, not a quality breeder.

That's the thing, many folks are easy conned 'cause they just don't know any better.


luck of the draw

One vastly improves one's 'luck' by adopting a puppy from a breeder who has dogs with a history of very selective and deliberate breeding going back several generations. Also, linebreeding/inbreeding dramatically improves consistency since it reenforces whatever traits are predominate in the genes. Indeed, the ONLY way to positively eliminate health problems is through selective and deliberate linebreeding/inbreeding, which can take many years.


A good breeder...will not sell a poor quality dog.

Many so-called 'good breeders' (viewed as 'good' by many people since they regularly 'win' politically oriented beauty contests) sell poor quality dogs every day. I can name names. One in particular knowingly showed (and bred!) a dog with Wobbler's disease (CVI). CVI is a real bitch - I inadvertently had CVI introduced into my American show line Dobes and when I realized that I no longer bred those dogs.


Some show hunting dogs make better home pets, where some that come from a long line of working dogs are more focused on the hunt and less about the family.


Of course that depends entirely on the bred. Also, what you're saying here is that show dogs make the best couch potatoes since all the drive has been bred out of them. lol

Dobermanns were originally bred to be personal protection dogs and to be very close to their masters - they are NOT 'hunters' or 'shepherd' type dogs. If one gets a Dobe and leaves it unattended in the backyard most of the time then one will have behavioral problems since Dobes NEED to be close to their humans (in contrast, not so with GSDs). OTOH livestock guardian dogs such as the Great Pyrenees couldn't really care if they get to spend time with their humans or not, in fact I know someone who has a couple of GP who rarely sees them since they sleep during the day and guard the livestock at night.

[Osiris]

Lots of people will disagree with me, but i guess we all have our opinions. Rescue a black pit bull PUPPY from death row at your local animal control. Black pits are usually never adopted and get euthanized. You'll probably have to fill out paperwork, tell them you want it listed on the papers as a lab mix. Show it lots of love and raise it right. Take the time to train it properly, just don't keep it out in the backyard. He/she will be forever grateful and loving to you and your family for saving their life.

I would be one to disagree with you. While I am sure a pit bull would protect, it isn't in their nature, they are not a guardian breed. Just because people fear them falsely does not make them good guard/protection dogs. If you are looking for a dog that will protect you and/or family you should look at true guardian breeds.


I would think of a cane corso, ridgeback, or american bulldog for protection. A German shepherd was the first breed that came to mind when I first read this thread though. I had one young and she was incredibly protective.

I have a pit bull now, he reads my fear well but I never expect him to actually protect me.

Apparently Airedales are good for protection, too bad they are ugly IMHO. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_dog

I guess there is something to be said about guarding and protection though. Different things, but the breed choice would be important.

Good luck! I would love to hear what you end up with.

[EE_]

[quote]'Mixing bloodlines' gives you exactly that - mixed bloodlines and mixed bloodlines yield a very wide range of results, i.e. NO consistency, the more 'mixing' (total outcrosses) one does, the further one gets away from one's target. This is known as 'genetic diversity' since there is greater diversity the more that outcrossing is done. A genuinely 'good breeder' pays very close attention to the coefficient of inbreeding and knows the history/background of the dogs which make up the top contributing ascendants (which is essentially what makes any particular dog what it is) in order to make real, positive contributions to the attributes of a particular breed rather than simply making a bred more 'diverse' or random, or to churn out large numbers of litters for $$$$. FWIW, Avatar has a COI of 40.6959% (the result of a brother/sister breeding), which is very high. Those who mistakenly *think* they understand breeding heavily outcross with little or no intentional linebreeding, and that's a complete crapshoot. Those that get it lean more toward linebreeding and/or inbreeding.

Avatar's top contributing ascendents are all Eschenhof and Nymphenburg dogs, some of very best and strongest working dogs from the early '70s into the mid-'80s - http://www.dobermannpedigrees.nl/modules/pedigree/coi.php?s=43367&d=43368&dogid=43739&detail=1
Agreed



Show dogs could not possibly be more worthless as all the working ability has been bred out of them and they are strictly bred to be beauty pageant contestants. They are breed solely to a 'show' standard and how well they 'show' in the show ring (which includes toning them down temperament-wise). And this 'show standard' does NOT render a dog any more healthy than a dog which isn't bred to a 'show standard'. Don't kid yourself. Really.

Somewhat agree

My Pointer still has a strong desire to work, she was pointing at 2 or three months old, she is also happy to be the queen of the house. You have to take in account, not everyone has the time to work thier dog for what they're bred for, or the desire. What good is a working dog if you don't work them?
The breeder I purchased this Pointer from is considered a "keeper of the breed". He has also spent many years in the ring winning a massive amount of ribbons. He is no puppy mill and cared very much to breed balanced dogs. There are not many English Pointers out their for breed stock, so anyone trying to breed a lot of this breed is not someone who cares about the breed.


BTW, FWIW there are some 'breeders' with cherished delusions that they can breed for ALL three attributes: temperament, confirmation, and health. They could not possibly be more mistaken and they are VERY confused - one can ONLY bred with a single objective in mind, and breeding for working ability as one's foremost goal leads to sound structure and good health results.

I respect and admire that there are people like you out there that breed and work your dogs for thier original intended purpose. You are in a small minority.




Anyone who trains a dog to 'bite on command' hasn't a clue. I equate that to someone who preaches that rapid fire is something one should be training to do. The main tool a dog has is its mouth (not just gripping, but barking as well), that's the first thing one needs to comprehend - everything flows from that imo. A dog is going to do what comes naturally to it according to its genetics and epigentics, with working dogs bred for protection this includes biting. A protection dog that cannot be controlled via obedience is a liability. Obedience above all else - which is why tractability and clear-headedness are so crucial.

Maybe people get the wrong perception from watching training videos here? Barking, attacking and biting are very much a part of SH training.




That's the thing, many folks are easy conned 'cause they just don't know any better.

Plenty of that to go around.


One vastly improves one's 'luck' by adopting a puppy from a breeder who has dogs with a history of very selective and deliberate breeding going back several generations. Also, linebreeding/inbreeding dramatically improves consistency since it reenforces whatever traits are predominate in the genes. Indeed, the ONLY way to positively eliminate health problems is through selective and deliberate linebreeding/inbreeding, which can take many years.

Totally agree


Many so-called 'good breeders' (viewed as 'good' by many people since they regularly 'win' politically oriented beauty contests) sell poor quality dogs every day. I can name names. One in particular knowingly showed (and bred!) a dog with Wobbler's disease (CVI). CVI is a real bitch - I inadvertently had CVI introduced into my American show line Dobes and when I realized that I no longer bred those dogs.

Too many people don't care anymore. The world has become a very messed up place.


Of course that depends entirely on the bred. Also, what you're saying here is that show dogs make the best couch potatoes since all the drive has been bred out of them. lol

Have you looked at a cross section of America lately? People have become couch potatos with no drive.

My bitch is a high energy athlete, a bird/squirl hunter, but likes her couch too.


Dobermanns were originally bred to be personal protection dogs and to be very close to their masters - they are NOT 'hunters' or 'shepherd' type dogs. If one gets a Dobe and leaves it unattended in the backyard most of the time then one will have behavioral problems since Dobes NEED to be close to their humans (in contrast, not so with GSDs). OTOH livestock guardian dogs such as the Great Pyrenees couldn't really care if they get to spend time with their humans or not, in fact I know someone who has a couple of GP who rarely sees them since they sleep during the day and guard the livestock at night.


Keep up the good work you are doing!
EE

[NOOB]

MR, I'm not a trainer nor a breeder. I'm not sure what you mean by "hard". The Fila does not need to be trained to protect; it is their genetic disposition to protect their family, they're extremely loyal. The saying in Brazil is "loyal like a Fila"
The Fila is not an attack dog, they simply protect against perceived threats and in their minds all strangers are potential threats...this is where an alpha owner and obedience training comes in.

The only persons that would be able to "step over my girls" would be myself, son and ex wife. In fact the only way a stranger could "step over" them is if they were already dead or tranquilized. Your Dobermans are fantastic and well trained and I'm sure worth every penny I'm sure, so please know I'm not denigrating or even trying to compare. Apples and oranges as far as I'm concerned...

I checked out a fila forum and maybe it was just one or two people but the theme was the breed definitely does not like anyone outside its family and can be very aggressive to visitors. Does this relate to your experience with this breed?

[tater]

I checked out a fila forum and maybe it was just one or two people but the theme was the breed definitely does not like anyone outside its family and can be very aggressive to visitors. Does this relate to your experience with this breed?


Yes. A Fila will never accept anyone outside the family they were raised in. They will "tolerate"others as long as long as you are tolerating them. No one can befriend your Fila and gain access to your home in your absence, no one! Socialization while pups will help tremendously in them trusting your judgement around others and they must know who's the pack leader and their position in the pack (the family unit).

You can't allow anyone other than the pack (the persons the Fila was raised with) to pet or take the leash of your Fila. Part of the judging of Filas is to fire a pistol within 10 meters and they won't flinch and to show extreme confidence in the presence of a raised club. Like I said; this is not trained into them, it is their genetic disposition.

The Fila will not turn on their owners and they "will not" retreat from a threat to those owners. I love my girls for what they are, you have to do your due diligence on this breed because they're not for everyone...

[General of Darkness]

Yes. A Fila will never accept anyone outside the family they were raised in. They will "tolerate"others as long as long as you are tolerating them. No one can befriend your Fila and gain access to your home in your absence, no one! Socialization while pups will help tremendously in them trusting your judgement around others and they must know who's the pack leader and their position in the pack (the family unit).

You can't allow anyone other than the pack (the persons the Fila was raised with) to pet or take the leash of your Fila. Part of the judging of Filas is to fire a pistol within 10 meters and they won't flinch and to show extreme confidence in the presence of a raised club. Like I said; this is not trained into them, it is their genetic disposition.

The Fila will not turn on their owners and they "will not" retreat from a threat to those owners. I love my girls for what they are, you have to do your due diligence on this breed because they're not for everyone...

If Fila's are so awesome why aren't they in protection sports? Not beating up on the breed but they're basically a English Mastiff.

Based on this I wouldn't want one because they sound like a liability.

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/fila-brasileiro

[tater]

If Fila's are so awesome why aren't they in protection sports? Not beating up on the breed but they're basically a English Mastiff.

Based on this I wouldn't want one because they sound like a liability.

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/fila-brasileiro

Not just an English mastiff..."What is a Fila Brasileiro? The Fila is a rare molosser breed that had it's origins in Brazil starting around 400 years ago, possibly from bloodhounds, Portuguese herding dogs, mastiffs and ancient bulldogs. The Fila Brasileiro is the National dog of Brazil, it's legendary loyalty expressed in a Brazilian saying: "Faithful as a Fila".

I'm not here to argue. I have 115 acres in the Ozarks with assets and for "my" purposes they are "awesome"! If I lived in Southern Cal suburbia I "would not" own a Fila, I too would consider them a liability. I've Dobermans and I loved them! Living in the sticks as I do; the Fila "is awesome".

They are banned in several countries so one would need to check that our as well.

[tater]

If Fila's are so awesome why aren't they in protection sports? Not beating up on the breed but they're basically a English Mastiff.

Based on this I wouldn't want one because they sound like a liability.

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/fila-brasileiro

I'm not sure about the answer to your question concerning why Aren't they included in the protection sports...maybe it's because the breed isn't recognized by the American Kennel Club or the United Kennel Club?

I do know "for a fact" they're more than capable of protecting me...

[General of Darkness]

Not just an English mastiff..."What is a Fila Brasileiro? The Fila is a rare molosser breed that had it's origins in Brazil starting around 400 years ago, possibly from bloodhounds, Portuguese herding dogs, mastiffs and ancient bulldogs. The Fila Brasileiro is the National dog of Brazil, it's legendary loyalty expressed in a Brazilian saying: "Faithful as a Fila".

I'm not here to argue. I have 115 acres in the Ozarks with assets and for "my" purposes they are "awesome"! If I lived in Southern Cal suburbia I "would not" own a Fila, I too would consider them a liability. I've Dobermans and I loved them! Living in the sticks as I do; the Fila "is awesome".

They are banned in several countries so one would need to check that our as well.

Well there you go Tater. For your needs that dog is perfect.

[tater]

Well there you go Tater. For your needs that dog is perfect.

Yep! I always tell folks this breed is NOT for everyone...
I also like the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Tosa but don't own either as of now.

BTW, your dogs are beautiful and so damn smart! Kudos

[tater]

Well there you go Tater. For your needs that dog is perfect.

Yep! I always tell folks this breed is NOT for everyone...
I also like the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Tosa but don't own either as of now.

BTW, your dogs are beautiful and so damn smart! Kudos

[tater]

Fat fingers and an iPhone...double tap haha

[General of Darkness]

Yep! I always tell folks this breed is NOT for everyone...
I also like the Rhodesian Ridgeback and Tosa but don't own either as of now.

BTW, your dogs are beautiful and so damn smart! Kudos

Tosa's are bred as fighting dogs, but are great with kids etc. One lady in our club use to fight them competitively and went to dobermans. She tried to get it into protection work and it's like trying to fit a circle in a square. I personally just don't care for dogs that are dog aggressive. Doesn't serve my needs.

[tater]

Tosa's are bred as fighting dogs, but are great with kids etc. One lady in our club use to fight them competitively and went to dobermans. She tried to get it into protection work and it's like trying to fit a circle in a square. I personally just don't care for dogs that are dog aggressive. Doesn't serve my needs.

The reason I considered a Tosa is because they are "so good with kids" and the fact they "don't bark so much" lol. Filas can be a lil bit loud haha...

Totally understand your stance on aggressive dogs...

[NOOB]

I went to one of the training days at one of the shutzhund clubs G of D linked to. Very interesting and some good dogs. Have you guys tried french ring or mondio ring?

[NOOB]

Check out this guys youtube channel. Seems like he would fit in here pretty well. A lot of dog training videos. He is making me want to get a malinois. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6x-aSMhd7UQ

[midnight rambler]

I went to one of the training days at one of the shutzhund clubs G of D linked to. Very interesting and some good dogs. Have you guys tried french ring or mondio ring?

While there ARE exceptions I've found that *generally* the SchH crowd is insufferable and not the least bit friendly toward newcomers (plus it's rare to find a SchH helper who 'gets' working Dobermanns, they're accustomed to being able to make training mistakes with GSDs which the GSDs easily forgive and forget - working Dobes get it the first time around and don't forget, GoD was EXTREMELY lucky in finding a strictly Dobermann oriented SchH club which appears to be the only one in the states). When my two newest additions are old enough I'm going to start visiting a mondio ring club about 1.5 hour drive from home. I've talked to the lady who heads up that mondio ring club and it seems like a very friendly and welcoming place.

Have you given any more thought to getting a serious (i.e. hard) Dobermann? I'm convinced they are the perfect inside the home family protection dogs as well as being a joy to have as a household member.

[midnight rambler]

FWIW, Dobermanns represent the ONLY bred breed specifically for personal protection.

[NOOB]

I am still doing homework on a breed that is right for me. Every doberman I have been around has been a good dog and the breed is one that I am looking at.