senate reaches deal

[Son-of-Liberty]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/16/politics/shutdown-showdown/

[Horn]

Thursday marks the day the Treasury Department will run out of special accounting maneuvers to keep the nation under the legal borrowing limit. From that point on, it will have to pay the country's incoming bills and other legal obligations with an estimated $30 billion in cash, plus whatever daily revenue comes in.

Special in this context means business as usual.

What exactly changed?

[Neuro]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/16/politics/shutdown-showdown/
What is the power of the senate in this? Isn't it the Congress that decides on the matter of the debt ceiling?

[Ares]

What is the power of the senate in this? Isn't it the Congress that decides on the matter of the debt ceiling?

Not much power really. Just working on a compromise to send to the House of Representatives. If the house approves it will go to obummer for him to sign or ignore.

[7th trump]

So obamacare will be unscathed and remain intact and the "special accounting maneuvers" means you'll be paying higher federal income taxes this April 15!

[Neuro]

So obamacare will be unscathed and remain intact and the "special accounting maneuvers" means you'll be paying higher federal income taxes this April 15!
Does it? How is that?

[Horn]

Does it? How is that?

The Treasury is betting its private stash that fines levied by Obamacare website's inability to sign people on will be a future windfall.

A backdoor tax, acts as a cushion for it to sit on after being continually ass raped.

[7th trump]

Does it? How is that?
I was being funny....I really dont know, but wouldnt surprise me if I was correct in my prediction.
Obamacare being an extention to Social Security was only put in Social Security to pass the constitutional muster as a tax. There is no other way they could have made this tax constituional. They need revenue so they extend Social Security to get it.
Social Security is 100% voluntary in participation so if you participate you are required to follow all rules and regulations. Obamacare is one set of many new rules and regulations.....like making you get health care.
The amish currently have kicked the chair out from underneith obamacare by not participating in Social Security.
The Amish have exposed obama for the fraud of obammy being a constitutional lawyer.

[Horn]

Not much power really. Just working on a compromise to send to the House of Representatives. If the house approves it will go to obummer for him to sign or ignore.

When the bill comes down from above (or backs-up like a toilet) does the House need a 2/3rds majority to pass?

Or is it just straight 50/50?



A break from tradition
If the Senate passes an agreement, House Speaker John Boehner will probably face the decision of whether to allow a vote that he knows can only pass with virtually all Democrats and only a few of his fellow Republicans supporting it.
That would break a Republican tradition known as the Hastert rule. The informal tenet, named after former House Speaker Dennis Hastert, says that the House speaker does not introduce legislation unless a majority of Republicans say they will vote for it first....
About 20 Republicans would have to back the Senate plan for it to pass, assuming that virtually all of the chamber's 200 Democrats also would support it.

[Neuro]

I was being funny....I really dont know, but wouldnt surprise me if I was correct in my prediction.

Horn may very well be correct. Then if they can make it nearly impossible to pay the fine in time, for not properly signing up for zerocare, they have a jackpot...

[Horn]

I just saw something that said they will be verifying incomes for Obamacare eligibility in the deal.

Whatever that means?

I guess it could delay it for a year until they can verify your income, possibly.

[midnight rambler]

According to the Constitution ALL appropriations bills are to originate in the House.

[Glass]

Seems like they do have to go back around again to get the bill into action.

Both chambers would have to take special steps to get the legislation passed and to President Barack Obama's desk before the government's ability to borrow money expires on Thursday.
CNN link (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/16/politics/shutdown-showdown/)

Someone commmented on ZH which I thought was interesting. Don't know if it's true or not.

Apparently the senate bill allows a automatic debt calling increase in April unless congress votes it down and Obama signs on it
ZH (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-16/summarizing-it-all-gop-wheel-misfortune)

[Ares]

According to the Constitution ALL appropriations bills are to originate in the House.

Why Obummercare is illegal and unconstitutional. (Among many, many countless reasons). But it originated in the senate. Was never declared a revenue law, only to be called a tax in the supreme court.

What a complete and total cluster fuck that thing is.

[Horn]

What a complete and total cluster fuck that thing is.

The income verification proposed is only to guarantee that those receiving subsides for Obamacare are approved to.

The more you see of Obamacare, its clearly just a stepping stone before complete government take over of Healthcare.

The U.S. is offered comparison examples of how totally disgraceful it is as a leader in free world without such health systems as its underlings. Yet they neglect to mention how it became the leader.

[7th trump]

Why Obummercare is illegal and unconstitutional. (Among many, many countless reasons). But it originated in the senate. Was never declared a revenue law, only to be called a tax in the supreme court.

What a complete and total cluster fuck that thing is.

From wikipedia......
For what its worth....I havent read much into this, but from glance it might not require any origination requirment. Obamacare is not a taxing bill..........its a bill that penalizes you for not having healthcare which the IRS will collect.........two totally different things here.
Dont forget oboocare is an extention of an already enacted law..........its legislation that can not stand on its own two feet.


United States[edit]Under the U.S. presidential system, the support of the Congress for the President's appropriations requests is not necessary for the separately elected President to remain in office, but can severely limit the President's ability to govern effectively.

In the United States, there are two types of appropriations. When Congress sets up particular programs, the legislation may itself set up the necessary appropriation mechanism, such as the social security program where payment of benefits are "mandatory". A mandatory program does not need an additional authorisation in order for spending under the program to occur. An authorization bill can create programs and make known Congress's intended level of spending for programs that also require an appropriation. What distinguishes a mandatory program from a discretionary program is that after Congress enacts a law creating a mandatory program, the program is permitted to spend funds until the program expires based on a provision in law, or until a subsequent law either terminates the program or reauthorizes it. "Discretionary" programs typically require annual appropriations legislation.

An appropriation bill is used to actually provide money for "discretionary" programs. Appropriations are generally done on an annual basis, although multi-year appropriations are occasionally passed. According to the United States Constitution (Article I, Section 8, clause 12), Army appropriations cannot be for more than two years at a time. An annual appropriation requires that the funds appropriated be obligated (spent) by the end of the fiscal year of the appropriation. Once the fiscal year ends, no more money can be spent via the prior year's appropriation. A new appropriation for the new fiscal year must be passed in order for continued spending to occur, or passage of a special appropriations bill known as a continuing resolution, which generally permits continued spending for a short period of time—usually at prior year levels. The Anti-Deficiency Act makes void any attempt to spend money for which there is no current appropriation.

According to the Origination Clause of the United States Constitution, all bills for raising revenue, generally tax bills, must originate in the House of Representatives, similar to the Westminster system requirement that all money bills originate in the lower house. Traditionally, though, appropriation bills also originate in the House of Representatives.[2] House appropriations bills begin with "H.R.", meaning "House of Representatives". In reference to revenue bills, the Constitution also states that the "Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills." As with revenue bills, the Senate and House each drafts and considers its own appropriation bill. The Senate then "cuts-and-pastes," substituting the language of its version of a particular appropriation bill for the language of the House bill, then agrees to the bill as amended.

Annual appropriations are divided into 12 separate pieces of legislation:

1.Agriculture,
2.Commerce, Justice, and Science,
3.Defense,
4.Energy and Water,
5.Financial Services,
6.Homeland Security,
7.Interior and Environment,
8.Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education,
9.Legislative,
10.Military and Veterans,
11.State and Foreign Operations,
12.Transportation and Housing and Urban Development.

[EE_]

Great news on the deal!
Now the strong economy can continue.
USA USA USA USA!

DJIA 15,373.77 +205.76
NASDAQ 3,839.43 +45.42

[midnight rambler]

All together now!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R5A0pg4oN8

[Neuro]

Very interesting this. Now most people have assumed that the debt ceiling has been lifted for the time being, but tomorrow America will default... Reminds me of what happened after the battle of Waterloo, in London...

[Horn]

Boehner: "We fought the good fight, and we lost"

[Ares]

Boehner: "We fought the good fight, and we lost"

That's because you're a cry baby pussy who can't hold your own in a fight. Guess that's what happens when you become a career politician. Your hands are soft, your will is weak, and you're an easy push over for a power hungry tyrant to get what he damn well pleases.

I hope you lose your job this November Mr. Speaker.

Every single time the repubs always give into the demands of the dictator in chief.

[EE_]

all together now!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r5a0pg4on8

fuck yeah!

[Horn]

Very interesting this. Now most people have assumed that the debt ceiling has been lifted for the time being, but tomorrow America will default... Reminds me of what happened after the battle of Waterloo, in London...

A U.S. Treasury Representative on CNN says he'd like to see the debt ceiling removed permanently,

as it was created in 1917 and that's just silly old.

[Neuro]

A U.S. Treasury Representative on CNN says he'd like to see the debt ceiling removed permanently,

as it was created in 1917 and that's just silly old.
Buffet said the same thing... Takes away power from congress, to the DOTUS!

[Horn]

Buffet said the same thing... Takes away power from congress, to the DOTUS!

Well its only funded until January, so there's still time to have multiple defaults.

They should launch a bill in Congress to allow for multiple defaults, instead of the typical one big default. :)

Maybe it comes with Mrs. Clinton as POTUS.

[Ares]

Well its only funded until January, so there's still time to have multiple defaults.

They should launch a bill in Congress to allow for multiple defaults, instead of the typical one big default.

House hasn't voted on it yet. Should be interesting to see if the "tea party / libertarian" wing of the Repubs vote for it.

[EE_]

The Repub's got nothing
There must be something really terrible in O-Care that congress gets to stay exempt from it.

[gunny highway]

The Repub's got nothing
There must be something really terrible in O-Care that congress gets to stay exempt from it.

yeah, like everything...

[Horn]

House hasn't voted on it yet. Should be interesting to see if the "tea party / libertarian" wing of the Repubs vote for it.

Some propaganda about the Alamo, and surviving to fight another day was floating around, doubt it.

[vacuum]

According to the Constitution ALL appropriations bills are to originate in the House.

Apparently, included in this debt increase legislation, debt increases will now be automatic unless congress disapproves of it. They'd need 2/3rds majority otherwise the president could veto it. This is HUGE news. It's like another death blow to our currency and credibility. There are no realistic more controls over how much debt we take on now, because politically, to create such a bill against a debt increase, then get 2/3rds to vote for it, is about 1000x more difficult than the current system.

[Horn]

Apparently, included in this debt increase legislation, debt increases will now be automatic unless congress disapproves of it. They'd need 2/3rds majority otherwise the president could veto it. This is HUGE news.

Where'd you hear that one?

That would mean the Repugs got screwed and tattooed on this bout.

[Glass]

Where'd you hear that one?

That would mean the Repugs got screwed and tattooed on this bout.

Maybe here? http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?73441-senate-reaches-deal&p=666191&viewfull=1#post666191

[mick silver]

the Amish will not have to take part in Obamacare

[Neuro]

the Amish will not have to take part in Obamacare
The Amish appear to have gotten most of their strategies right, long term. Their society will not be very affected by a collapse of society at large...

[Libertytree]

5508

[7th trump]

the Amish will not have to take part in Obamacare

Neither do any of you if you dont "wish" to participate in Social Security. But thus far only Ares is interested in how to stand on his Constitutional protections and tell the government to take the fucking high road.
You people bitch and complain about your own VOLUNTARY captivity rather than do something about it.

[jimswift]

The last big debt ceiling confrontation saw that congress 'super committee', where they were supposed to fix everything.

I imagine similar snow will be blown come January and nothing will be "fixed".

[gunny highway]

The last big debt ceiling confrontation saw that congress 'super committee', where they were supposed to fix everything.

I imagine similar snow will be blown come January and nothing will be "fixed".

Are you telling me that congress lied to us?! I guess there's a first time for everything.

[Horn]

I'm looking for the new debt ceiling number.

Apparently it is wherever they arrive at in February, after that no more debt will be added.

As it would need Congress to impose a new limit above and beyond that time.

[Horn]

No, we didn’t get rid of the debt ceiling forever

There's a lot of confusion this morning about whether the shutdown deal includes an obscure provision that effectively ends the debt-ceiling forever.

The culprit here is "the McConnell mechanism," a bizarre-but-useful idea Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell's office came up with in 2011. McConnell correctly recognized that the problem with raising the debt ceiling is that nobody wants to vote "yes" on it even though a majority of the Congress ultimately needs to vote "yes" on it. It is, in other words, a collective-action problem: Each individual legislator has an incentive to do something that's disastrous for the country as a whole.


McConnell's idea was to restructure the question so most legislators could vote "no" and the president would be the one to take all the blame. It's not the most profile-in-courage solution one could imagine, but given the circumstances, it's actually kind of genius.

The way it works is that the president gets the power to raise the debt ceiling and then Congress gets an opportunity to take a vote of "disapproval." If that vote passes Congress, then the president can veto the disapproval rule. If Congress can muster the two-thirds majority to overturn the veto, then the president's debt-ceiling increase is rejected.

In other words, the debt ceiling vote goes from a vote where a majority of Congress needs to vote in favor of it to a vote where up to two-thirds of Congress can vote against it.

We've been using the McConnell mechanism to raise the debt ceiling since 2011. If we made the McConnell mechanism permanent — something the Obama administration favors (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/30/the-best-idea-in-american-politics-kill-the-debt-ceiling/) — it would basically disarm the debt ceiling forever. But last night's deal didn't make the McConnell mechanism permanent. It's only valid until Feb. 7, 2014.

Once it expires, we'll have to figure out how to raise the debt ceiling again. Odds are that whatever form that deal takes, it'll once again use the McConnell mechanism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/17/no-we-didnt-get-rid-of-the-debt-ceiling-forever/

[Horn]

5510

[jimswift]

I'm looking for the new debt ceiling number.

Apparently it is wherever they arrive at in February, after that no more debt will be added.

As it would need Congress to impose a new limit above and beyond that time.

Somebody asked Bernanke or Geithner about what was the number needed a short while ago.

They'd rather not say, but that it was uncomfortable.

[Horn]

5510


1. RIVER PROJECT


Kentucky kickback?: $2.2 billion. That's the amount in additional cash authorized for a project that involved a dam and decades-old locks on a river that flows through Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell's home state of Kentucky. Sounds kinda fishy, but a Democratic senate aid and a Republican senator say it's on the level. The aide tells CNN that McConnell didn't push for the project to be included. And Sen. Lamar Alexander, who's a key figure on the committee that oversees what water projects get what money, says he and another senator asked for the cash. He tells CNN's Chris Frates the new money -- which more than triples the original $775 million -- will save the federal government many millions because contracts won't be canceled due to work stoppages. Still, the Senate Conservatives Fund calls the money a "Kentucky Kickback."


There's a little pork in that bill: The 5 most surprising provisions in the debt deal
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/17/politics/new-debt-deal-pork/