Epicureanism vs. Stoicism

[Horn]

Epicureanism and Stoicism are two schools of philosophy that flourished during the Hellenistic period. One of the reasons for this flourishing can be attributed to the way the two philosophies spoke to the common person unlike Platonism or Aristotle’s theories before them. A large part of their ideas focused around knowledge of nature as being crucial to living and being adapted to one’s proper role within the cosmos. This provided people with realistic and practically applicable ideals instead of flamboyant theories. Epicureans thoroughly believed that understanding nature involved understanding that the entire universe is made of atoms and that everything within it dealt with interactions of these atoms, while the Stoics were pantheists that believed the entire universe is God with each part of the universe being an extension of the overall being or animal called God. In this paper I will discuss Epicurean atomism encouraging people to live in ataraxia, or lack of physical pain and mental disturbance, as part of understanding their role in the cosmos, as well as the Stoics encouraging people to live with apatheia, or passionlessness, in order to function in one’s role in the cosmos. I will compare both views and their reasoning, and at last argue that the Epicurean worldview is more reasonable because it is more rational.

http://izhaarbir.com/phil/university-of-houston-undergraduate-%E2%80%93-senior/epicureanism-vs-stoicism/

Hehe check the response at the end of the page,

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6c70hPa8iU

[StreetsOfGold]

The Athenians were Epicurean. Sounds like the typical American hanging on for the next NEW "thing" to appear

Acts 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

[Horn]

The Athenians were Epicurean. Sounds like the typical American hanging on for the next NEW "thing" to appear

Acts 17:21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

And what prey tell are we doing here at forum, (my Athenian brother) besides hashing over the same old song?

Is it in hope, faith, or trust that something new will come?

Each thread a new boat that rocks the race.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

http://hackingon.net/image4721.gif?picture=WindowsLiveWriter/Stoicism/60A04C8A/stoicism_cheat_sheet.gif

[Horn]

What else would a stoic be doing besides writing down "virtuous guidelines"?

all the time not realizing that the written word serves him no justice.

For it is his passion to communicate only a notion that conducts him... .-.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DOv4KPkUDY

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Are you a epicurean? There aren't many these days. May you find all the pleasure you seek and avoid all pain in your travels.

[Horn]

Are you a epicurean? There aren't many these days. May you find all the pleasure you seek and avoid all pain in your travels.

No need to seek pleasure its all around, even in the air you breathe.

As Epicurus said he would like to challenge the happiness of Zeus with only a piece of barley cake for himself.

Those are easily provided for.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

No need to seek pleasure its all around, even in the air you breathe.

As Epicurus said he would like to challenge the happiness of Zeus with only a piece of barley cake for himself.

Those are easily provided for.

That's a good attitude, to find pleasure in everything no matter how small or seemingly insignificant. It really speaks to an appreciation of life. Who could find any kind of fault with that?

[Horn]

Understanding is the most pleasurable.

I appreciate the stoic connection with other worldliness, in what I suppose is a tapping into other forms of communique.

My wife is hugely stoic, the only problem is when the signal gets broken up.

Don't want to carry that kind of pain into the afterlife... :)

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Lucky man. Not many stoic women around. By and large, emotional creatures by nature which doesn't allow them to step back and focus on only what they are in control of; namely, their thoughts and opinions. Could be a western thing though. Stoicism has a lot in common with Buddhism.

[Horn]

Both philosophies are very zenish.

Maybe a good comparison is between kung fu and karate.

http://filmforno.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bill.jpg

my kung fu of course being much better than your karate. http://gold-silver.us/forum/images/smilies/smiley.gif

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Of course, one of the greatest Roman emperors was a stoic. Called a philosopher king during his reign.

http://i.imgur.com/KRuD5.jpg.png

[Horn]

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-i-am-an-epicurean-i-consider-the-genuine-not-the-imputed-doctrines-of-epicurus-as-containing-thomas-jefferson-94024.jpg

http://societyofepicurus.com/jeffersonian-epicureanism-2/

(http://societyofepicurus.com/jeffersonian-epicureanism-2/)Epicureanism evolved shortly after Alexander the Great’s conquests and death. Alexander’s short-lived empire had been divided into four kingdoms and there was much intrigue and struggle for power in those days, so that when Epicurus warned against involvement in politics and life in the polis, he was criticizing a particularly rabid form of politics. To this day, the adage Live Unknown is still followed by many Epicureans who would rather avoid drama and greed for power in order to protect their ataraxia, and the philosophy retains much of its original anarchic spirit. This is perfectly legitimate.

But Thomas Jefferson, the politician, embodied a distinct expression of the philosophy. What characterizes Jeffersonian Epicureanism, versus the Epicureanism of any other philosopher? What makes it distinct?

Firstly, it’s engaged and does not shy away from politics, and it therefore represents an evolution, or maybe even a reform of the original. Epicurus perceived the desire for fame as a vain desire. But what if fame happens? What if fame is acquired in the pursuit of other, maybe higher or nobler, values and desires? What if one can manage to live a life of imperturbability while engaging in the world?

Whatever failures or successes may have been accomplished through this, this was Jefferson’s experiment. What he gave us, in the process of being true to his conscience, was his own Epicureanism as part of our American national legacy.
As he wrote the natural right to the pursuit of happiness into the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson left the fingerprints of an Epicurean in the document and articulated his American Dream as an attempt at establishing a national sort of Epicurean Garden, an experiment where a whole society during an entire era of humanity would now be given the opportunity to seek happiness as the most obvious, natural of human rights.

Furthermore, his commentary on the life of Jesus, where he took the Gospels and cut off all the supernatural claims, keeping only the ethical teachings, was also an expression of Epicurean naturalist conviction. He was a philosophical materialist and had no need for the supernatural claims.

The Jefferson Bible is a commentary, and not just an editorial process –which, on its face, it seems to be– because, in cutting off the supernatural (and ergo UN-natural) portions, Jefferson was adding valuable, naturalist commentary to the life and ethics of Jesus, and fundamentally engaging in philosophical discourse. The Jefferson Bible is an expression of the founding father’s secular humanist philosophy.

And so we find three unique attributes in Jeffersonian Epicureanism: it’s engaged and political, it’s anchored within the facticity, the narrative, and the context of our national history, and it’s influenced by altruistic Christian ethics, which he believed counterbalanced the philosophy of Epicurus
.
Epictetus and Epicurus give laws for governing ourselves, Jesus a supplement of the duties and charities we owe to others. – Jefferson

Not all of us feel the need to balance hedonism with an altruistic ethical teaching, particularly because many of us see the Epicurean teaching mission as a philanthropic one: we are giving humanity a science of happiness and liberation from ignorance. In spite of its peculiarities, Jefferson’s Epicurean faith was no less sincere. In his letter to Short, Jefferson hints at his commitment to doing the introspective tasks assigned by Epicurus by discerning between different types of desires, and insisted on defending “the true, not the imputed teachings” of Epicurus, whom he calls his Master. He also cultivated his own Garden, which has today evolved into a type of national museum. Thomas Jefferson was as devoted an Epicurean as one gets.

By naming these facts, I am not saying that the Society of Friends seeks to practice a specifically Jeffersonian, or Christian-Humanist, form of Epicureanism. But we acknowledge, embrace, and celebrate his legacy and his place in our history, and we amiably welcome Christian-influenced Epicureans who look to Jefferson, Epicurus, and Jesus as culture heroes.

(http://societyofepicurus.com/jeffersonian-epicureanism-2/)

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Want An Unconquerable Mind? Try Stoic Philosophy



Members of a brainy movement across the pond are reviving ancient stoic thought and coupling it with modern psychology to strengthen mental resilience. Their ideas hold fascinating promise for business and government leaders tackling global problems in a turbulent, post-recession slump.

Conde Nast CEO Jonathan Newhouse swears stoic philosophy (http://philosophyforlife.org/jonathan-newhouse-stoic-emperor-of-the-conde-nast-empire/) is key to his inner stability amidst industries heavily focused on external appearance. Former Vancouver mayor Sam Sullivan says stoicism empowered him (http://philosophyforlife.org/the-stoic-mayor/) out of depression after a skiing accident left him quadriplegic. Former president Bill Clinton (who indulged in some rather un-stoic passions) reportedly sought stoic wisdom throughout his presidency.

Prominent business thinker Nassim Nicholas Taleb praises stoic philosophy in his Antifragile: Things That Gain from Disorder (http://www.amazon.com/Antifragile-Things-That-Gain-Disorder/dp/1400067820), a book that Stoic Week organizer Donald Robertson says nudged many curious readers toward stoicism. Robertson, a Scottish-born therapist and classics enthusiast, led workshops on psychological resilience for managers at oil giant Shell called “How to think like a Roman Emperor,” based on the life of stoic philosopher-king Marcus Aurelius. Aurelius’ life embodied these five core stoic ideals:
http://b-i.forbesimg.com/carriesheffield/files/2013/12/Aurelius-198x300.jpg (http://b-i.forbesimg.com/carriesheffield/files/2013/12/Aurelius.jpg)Richard Harris as Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius in the 2000 blockbuster “Gladiator”

1. Immediately Recognize What Is Out Of Your Control.

A stoic leader realizes that only his thoughts and intentions are truly within his sphere of control;everything else is ultimately uncontrollable.

“Anyone in a leadership role must come to terms quickly with the paradox of their position: that leaders must wield power but that often so much that happens lies outside of their control,” Robertson told Forbes. “How do we accept the limits of our power without slumping into passivity?”

Robertson said people sometimes confuse stoicism with submissiveness, but calls this “a very superficial misunderstanding.” Students of ancient stoicism tended to be sons from wealthy, cosmopolitan families. Many went on to rule empires or advise great leaders in commerce and war.

“Can you point to a single historical stoic who sat on his hands?” quips Robertson, whose forthcoming book, Stoicism and the Art of Happiness: A Teach Yourself Guide, (http://www.amazon.com/Stoicism-Art-Happiness-Relationships-Self-Help/dp/1444187104/)is due early next year. “It’s just not in the nature of their philosophy to be doormats or stay-at-home types.”
Robertson gave an analogy by Cato of Utica that a stoic is like an archer who diligently and confidently notches his arrow and draws his bow but must accept that once his arrow has flown it could be blown off course or its target could move.

Stoic managers take great pains to aim well but must accept what happens with total equanimity.


2. Fear, Anger And Other Emotions Are Personal Choices, Regardless Of Outer Circumstances.
http://b-i.forbesimg.com/carriesheffield/files/2013/12/300px-James_Stockdale_Formal_Portrait.jpg (http://commons.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:James_Stockdale_Formal_Portrait.jpg)Rear Adm. James Stockdale, stoic Navy pilot


In a Harvard Business Review article called “Building Resilience,” (http://hbr.org/product/building-resilience/an/R1104H-PDF-ENG)psychologist Martin Seligman from the University of Pennsylvania discusses his concept of “learned helplessness,” when people subjected to stressful environments eventually collapse into complete passivity. Learned helplessness is the antithesis of stoic belief in inner power.

Trapped in a Vietnamese torture camp, American James Stockdale’s antagonizers wrenched his shoulders from their sockets, shattered his leg twice and broke his back. Shot down from his Navy plane, Stockdale’s captors held him seven years: more than four years in solitary confinement and two years shackled in irons.

Though his body lay captive in Hanoi prison cells, Stockdale later recounted (http://www.usna.edu/Ethics/_files/documents/Stoicism2.pdf)that his mind was free and his spirit unbroken. Through clandestine channels, Stockdale, a high-ranking officer, maintained chain of command among his fellow captured pilots—75 initially, growing to more than 460—issuing orders and boosting morale. Released at war’s end, Stockdale later won the Medal of Honor, the military’s highest award, and served as president of the Naval War College.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2013/12/01/want-an-unconquerable-mind-try-stoic-philosophy/

[Horn]

OK, if you're trying to make a sale don't start off the first two sentences with unconquerable, and then to include ancient and forgotten...

A stoic mind is only as powerful as its ability to reason, as it has totally lost it ability to facilitate it with backup turbo power of well distributed passion. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhGeH07lo5M

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Well distributed passion? Is that even possible? Passion is a type of subtle madness that overpowers reason. The very term itself is derived from the greek πάσχω which means to suffer. Is this where you get your "backup power", through suffering?

[Horn]

Passion is a type of subtle madness that overpowers reason.

Passion is the art of being human, fueling reason, without it there would be no reason.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

That's an interesting take, I consider ethos to be the art of being human.

[Horn]

That's an interesting take, I consider ethos to be the art of being human.

There's is where I leave you on your mountain top alone :)

[Neuro]

I think I am essentially a stoic nowadays...

[Horn]

I think I am essentially a stoic nowadays...

You will need a colder locale for your hut to make cottage cheese in it.

[Neuro]

You will need a colder locale for your hut to make cottage cheese in it.
Fuck off!






;D

[Horn]

Fuck off!

You need to practice your stoic karate better, padawan :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL7nLSSSWjw

[Neuro]

You need to practice your stoic karate better, padawan :)

Hehehe, I don't even like cottage cheese, Palani!

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

In his discourse entitled “we ought not to yearn for things that are not under our control” (Discourses, 3.24), the Stoic philosopher Epictetus, described three steps used to cope with apparent misfortunes. He intended that these should be rigorously rehearsed until they become habitual…


Have thoughts like these ready at hand by night and by day; write them, read them, make your conversation about them, communing with yourself, or saying to another, “Can you give me some help in this matter?”


Later he says:
If you have these thoughts always at hand and go over them again and again in your own mind, and keep them in readiness, you will never need another person to console you, or strengthen you.


Speaking to a group of aspiring Stoic students, he outlines the recommended steps to be memorised and rehearsed as follows.

Step One: Tell yourself it was to be expected.


Your initial response when something apparently “undesirable” happens should be to tell yourself that it was “not unexpected”, and this “will be the first thing to lighten the burden”, according to Epictetus. This is made easier by regularly anticipating potential setbacks that can happen in life, imagining what it would be like to face typical misfortunes philosophically. This is sometimes called premeditatio malorum by Stoics, or the technique of contemplating potential misfortunes in advance. In particular, the Stoics frequently remind themselves that both they and their loved ones are mortal, and bound to die one day, and that life is inevitably transient. Here Epictetus simply says, however, that when adversity comes we should greet it by reminding ourselves not to be surprised but to recognise that we knew all along that this sort of thing can potentially happen in life.

Step Two: Tell yourself that it is indifferent to your wellbeing.

This is sometimes described as the “Sovereign precept” of ancient Stoicism: Some things are under our control and some things are not. Only things under our control reflect on our character and therefore constitute our wellbeing, i.e., our judgements and acts of will are our own business and when they are done well we may be described as being wise and good. Things outside of our control, such as health, wealth and reputation are indifferent with regard to our own character and therefore our happiness and wellbeing. Epictetus says you should consider where the misfortune comes from, and if it is an external event, tell yourself:


It comes from the quarter of the things that are outside the sphere of volition, that are not my own; what, then, is it to me?

The typical answer Stoics give to that rhetorical question is: “It is nothing to me.” In fact, one of Epictetus’ basic maxims is that things beyond our volition, outside of our control, are “nothing to us.” Epictetus also advised his students, perhaps literally, to say very concisely to themselves either “avolitional, not bad!” (aproaireton, ou kakon), to apparent external misfortunes, or “volitional, good!” (proairetikon, agathon), to virtuous responses, and so on.
For Stoics, the ultimate good in life is to possess wisdom, justice, and other virtues, and to act according to them. The vicissitudes of fate, external events, the wheel of fortune that sometimes raises us up and at other times casts us down, is “indifferent” with regard to our own character and virtue and, in that sense, of no concern with regard to our true wellbeing as rational agents.

Step Three: Remind yourself that it was determined by the whole.

Epictetus describes the third and last stage of the Stoics response as “the most decisive consideration”. We should ask ourselves who has ordained that this should happen: “Who was it that has sent the order?” The answer is that it was sent by God, or, if you like, it should be viewed as having been determined by the “string of causes” that constitute the universe as a whole, which Stoics call “Nature”. The Stoic therefore tells himself: “Give it to me, then, for I must always obey the law in every particular.” In other words, he sees events outside of his control as necessary, determined by the whole of Nature, or fated by the Will of God, and he actively accepts them as such. This may simply be another way of stating the importance that philosophical “determinism” has for Stoics, the belief that all things happen of necessity and are caused by the totality of the universe. When we tell ourselves that events come as no surprise, that they lie outside the domain of our concern, and that they could not have been otherwise, and form part of the unfolding pattern of universal Nature, we may achieve the wisdom and serenity in the face of adversity that Stoics aspire to, and call a “smooth flow of life.”

[Horn]

Are You An Epicurean? Really?

Types of Desire

Pleasure often arises from the satisfaction of desire and pain from its frustration. Thus, any desire should either be satisfied to yield pleasure or eliminated to avoid pain, and, overall, it is elimination that should be preferred. There are, Epicurus says, three types of desires, (1) natural and necessary desires such as those for food and shelter which are difficult to eliminate but naturally limited and both easy and highly pleasurable to satisfy, (2) natural but non-necessary desires such as those for luxury food and accommodation, and (3) vain desires such as those for fame, power, or wealth which are inculcated by society and which are not naturally limited and neither easy nor highly pleasurable to satisfy. Natural and necessary desires should be satisfied, natural but non-necessary desires can be satisfied but should not be depended upon, and vain desires should be entirely eliminated. By applying this recipe for the selective elimination of desires, a person can minimize the pain and anxiety of harbouring unfulfilled desires, and thereby bring himself as close as possible to ataraxia.


In Conclusion
Given the prime importance that he attaches to the avoidance of pain, the elimination of desire, and peace of mind, Epicurus is far more of a ‘tranquillist’ than a hedonist. ‘If thou wilt make a man happy’, he says, ‘add not unto his riches but take away from his desires.’

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hide-and-seek/201212/are-you-epicurean-really



Pass the cottage cheese, please.

Neuro needs to be force fed. :)

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMmTkKz60W8

[Neuro]

Pass the cottage cheese, please.

Neuro needs to be force fed. :)
If you find a way to force feed me cottage cheese I will accept it. :)

[Horn]

If you find a way to force feed me cottage cheese I will accept it. :)

There isn't enough cottage cheese in the world currently

to supply our equal demands for your enforced cottage cheese pain and sacrificial suffering.

The quest would be one in vain, and infamous ecstasy only.

[Neuro]

There isn't enough cottage cheese in the world currently

to supply our equal demands for your enforced cottage cheese pain and sacrificial suffering.

The quest would be one in vain, and infamous ecstasy only.
Indeed! I wonder what HT would say on the subject?

[Horn]

Indeed! I wonder what HT would say on the subject?

Stoic no doubt, with the repetitive responses and his truth as the only virtue.

I have a problem with the virtuous, they always seem to hold them so high, but then fail so low when the situation becomes dire as emotions will overwhelm no matter what devices are used to sacrifice, cork, or quark them.

Or also they somehow forget who they are due to them, and end up coming off as what was trying to be avoided. I'm often guilty of that I suppose also. Virtues sometimes have the appalling side effect of making oneself unattractive to oneself. :)

They need to be brought down to earth and tamed in a simple and easy religious practice of some sort, definetly not in a way of a some difficult bi-polar puzzle to unravel in the mind of trained thought. The mind constantly complicates its own existence.

I could also use the almighty dollar as a stoic notional comparison to virtuous, and silver being the physical heart's tamed desire.
Good kung fu...

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Stoic no doubt, with the repetitive responses and his truth as the only virtue.

I have a problem with the virtuous, they always seem to hold them so high, but then fail so low when the situation becomes dire as emotions will overwhelm no matter what devices are used to sacrifice, cork, or quark them.

Or also they somehow forget who they are due to them, and end up coming off as what was trying to be avoided. I'm often guilty of that I suppose also. Virtues sometimes have the appalling side effect of making oneself unattractive to oneself. :)

They need to be brought down to earth and tamed in a simple and easy religious practice of some sort, definetly not in a way of a some difficult bi-polar puzzle to unravel in the mind of trained thought. The mind constantly complicates its own existence.

I could also use the almighty dollar as a stoic notional comparison to virtuous, and silver being the physical heart's tamed desire.
Good kung fu...

Seems that you are saying stoics are guilty of stuffing their emotions. I don't believe this is true. Emotions will happen, that is inevitable and normal. There is a point, however, when reason should kick in and remind us how the things causing us the emotions are predictable, necessary and unavoidable. At that point, we can start to learn our lessons from the events and move on and gain the wisdom necessary.

[Horn]

Right stuffing emotions, everyone has a different life story, what they've known and seen.

I've seen stuffed emotions eat the wise and stoic up from within. For me anyway, when emotions such as desire are the practice there is much less conflict between it and reason. Reason as a practice falls prey to emotion. While reason is ever present, emotions are drifting in and away. Living life of constant appreciation of the small pleasures and removal of pain (keeping that emotive close) enhances and makes wide room for the use of reason as a tool.

My best shot of an explanation of what I''m getting at.

[Neuro]

Right stuffing emotions, everyone has a different life story, what they've known and seen.

I've seen stuffed emotions eat the wise and stoic up from within. For me anyway, when emotions such as desire are the practice there is much less conflict between it and reason. Reason as a practice falls prey to emotion. While reason is ever present, emotions are drifting in and away. Living life of constant appreciation of the small pleasures and removal of pain (keeping that emotive close) enhances and makes wide room for the use of reason as a tool.

My best shot of an explanation of what I''m getting at.
Profound insights!

[Jewboo]

Reason as a practice falls prey to emotion. While reason is ever present, emotions are drifting in and away. Living life of constant appreciation of the small pleasures and removal of pain (keeping that emotive close) enhances and makes wide room for the use of reason as a tool.

My best shot of an explanation of what I''m getting at.



On Reason and Passion
Kahlil Gibran (http://www.katsandogz.com/onreason.html)

:rolleyes:

[Horn]

(3) vain desires such as those for fame, power, or wealth which are inculcated by society and which are not naturally limited and neither easy nor highly pleasurable to satisfy.

Now if we can only find a way to remove the infamous pleasure seeking pain of internet forum stardom. lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NctEnrxGVHE


http://gold-silver.us/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.png

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Wise men are instructed by reason;
Men of less understanding, by experience;
The most ignorant, by necessity;
The beasts by nature.
Letters to Atticus, Marcus Tullius Cicero

[Horn]

5807

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

What if we discovered that the meaning of life was somehow hidden right under our noses… Suppose you discovered that the most important idea in the universe was written down in plain sight, but overlooked by everyone because the words, assumed to be incomprehensible garbage, were being used as a meaningless filler for graphic design? That would be pretty ironic, wouldn’t it?

Lorem ipsum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum) is the name given to the (mangled) Latin text commonly used in publishing as a meaningless placeholder, since around the 1960s. It allows designers to arrange the visual elements of a page of text, such as font and layout, without being distracted by the content. Different Latinate words are sometimes used. However, below is a typical example of the lorem ipsum placeholder text. Exactly the same content is presented in two very different styles, using CSS rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_Style_Sheets):





Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. _



Here’s the thing: this text isn’t actually meaningless… The Latin was so corrupt that the original source was almost unrecognizable. Nevertheless, in the early 1980s, a Latin scholar called Richard McClintock, based in Virginia, accidentally discovered the source of the passage in a well-known philosophical text. It’s derived from a book called De Finibus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_finibus_bonorum_et_malorum), which was written in the first century BC, by the famous Roman statesman and philosopher, Cicero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero). He was a follower of the philosophy taught by Plato’s successors in what’s known as the “Academic” school.

Although it’s usually just referred to by the Latin name De Finibus, the full title is De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum, which is notoriously tricky to translate into English. Literally, it means “On the ends of good and evil”, but really it concerns different philosophical views about the best way of life, which comes fairly close to what today we refer to as the “meaning of life”.

De Finibus is a series of five dialogues in which Cicero portrays himself and his friends discussing the major schools of Roman philosophy. After weighing the pros and cons of Epicureanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism)and Stoicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism), Cicero concludes with an account of the “Middle Platonism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_platonism)” introduced to the Academy by his own teacher, Antiochus of Ascalon. Overall, Cicero found himself more in agreement with Stoicism than Epicureanism. His own Platonism, like Antiochus’, probably assimilated many aspects of Stoicism, as well as Aristotelianism. However, although broadly sympathetic to this eclectic philosophy Cicero also notes its flaws. His conclusion is unclear and may be in favour of a more skeptical form of Platonism.
Cicero’s friend and rival, the great Roman Stoic Cato of Utica is portrayed as speaking in defence of that philosophy. The overall series of dialogues is framed in terms of a discussion between Cicero and Cato’s nephew, Brutus, the lead assassin of the dictator Julius Caesar. However, the lorem ipsum text comes from the first book of De Finibus, in which a Roman statesman and philosopher, renowned for his Greek scholarship, Lucius Torquatus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Manlius_Torquatus_(Praetor_49_BC)) is portrayed offering a summary and defence of the Epicurean philosophy of life.

So what does it actually say? Well the placeholder text itself is pretty garbled but the passages it occurs in (De Finibus, 1.10.32-33) basically shows Torquatus defending Epicurus’ philosophical doctrine that the most important thing in life is the experience of pleasure. This idea was widely rebuked in the ancient world, not least by Stoic and Academic philosophers such as Cato and Cicero. However, Torquatus argues that those who criticise the pursuit of pleasure do so not because they think pleasure itself is bad but because harmful consequences often follow from irrational over-indulgence. The Epicurean philosophy was more sophisticated than this, though, and proposed that wisdom consists in the rational long-term pursuit of pleasures that are natural and lasting, which he associated with practical wisdom and the attainment of supreme emotional tranquillity (ataraxia).

The central paradox of Epicureanism is that achieving lasting pleasure and freedom from pain often requires us to endure short-term pain or discomfort and to renounce certain transient pleasures, for the sake of our own long-term happiness. Epicurus therefore recommended living a very simple life. For example, someone who is serious about maximising their own pleasure and who pursues it philosophically might judge it prudent to undertake vigorous physical exercise and follow a healthy diet, enduring “short-term pain for long-term gain,” as we say today. Torquatus essentially says that the pursuit of pleasure has acquired a bad name undeservedly because people confuse the foolish and reckless pursuit of short-term pleasures with the prudent long-term pursuit of pleasure taught by Epicurus and his followers.
The whole of the relevant section from De Finibus reads as follows in H. Rackham’s 1914 Loeb Classical Library translation, with the fragments included in the lorem ipsumplaceholder text underlined:


But I must explain to you how all this mistaken idea of denouncing of a pleasure and praising pain was born and I will give you a complete account of the system, and expound the actual teachings of [Epicurus,] the great explorer of the truth, the master-builder of human happiness. No one rejects, dislikes, or avoids pleasure itself, because it is pleasure, but because those who do not know how to pursue pleasure rationally encounter consequences that are extremely painful. Nor again is there anyone who loves or pursues or desires to obtain pain of itself, because it is pain, but occasionallycircumstances occur in which toil and pain can procure him some great pleasure. To take a trivial example, which of us everundertakes laborious physical exercise, except to obtain some advantage from it? But who has any right to find fault with a man who chooses to enjoy a pleasure that has no annoying consequences, or one who avoids a pain that produces no resultant pleasure?

On the other hand, we denounce with righteous indignation and dislike men who are so beguiled and demoralized by the charms of pleasure of the moment, so blinded by desire, that they cannot foresee the pain and trouble that are bound to ensue; and equalblame belongs to those who fail in their duty through weakness of will, which is the same as saying through shrinking from toil and pain. These cases are perfectly simple and easy to distinguish. In a free hour, when our power of choice is untrammeled and when nothing prevents our being able to do what we like best, every pleasure is to be welcomed and every pain avoided. But in certain circumstances and owing to the claims of duty or the obligations of business it will frequently occur that pleasures have to be repudiated and annoyances accepted. The wise man therefore always holds in these matters to this principle of selection: he rejects pleasures to secure other greater pleasures, or else he endures pains to avoid worse pains.


Although Torquatus is portrayed as defending this philosophy of life, it seems clear that Cicero was unconvinced. In the following chapters, Cato is shown arguing in favour of the opposing Stoic position. The Stoics believed that the meaning or purpose of life is the pursuit of wisdom and virtue, first and foremost, rather than seeking pleasure or tranquillity. Antiochus’ view is presented as being that the best life consists in a combination of virtue and sufficient “external goods”, such as health, property, and friends, etc. Nevertheless, many people today continue to be drawn to Epicureanism. Maybe this is because it provides a fairly sophisticated account of one of a handful of perennial or archetypal philosophies of life that recur in different forms throughout the ages.

Cicero took these conflicting philosophical views about the most important thing in life very seriously indeed and tried to carefully evaluate their pros and cons.

[Horn]

Lorem ipsum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorem_ipsum)

Great find and pleasurable read, I never knew...

[Horn]

Epicureanism: Ethics in a World Without Magic

In the mythology of the Star Trek series, the philosophy of the inhabitants of the planet Vulcan, with its emphasis on logic, was founded by an ancient Vulcan sage named Surak. I have often thought that Epicurus (341 BC – 270 BC), who spent most of his maturity teaching in Athens in the generation after Plato, Aristotle and Socrates, was the Surak of the planet Earth. Epicurus is less well known than the Socratics, the Buddha and the founders of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Unlike all of them, he was right... ...

http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/voices/michael-lind/epicurean-lockean-listian/ (http://thebreakthrough.org/index.php/voices/michael-lind/epicurean-lockean-listian/)

[Neuro]

it seems to me that Epicurus may have been a bit obsessed with avoiding anxiety. of course anxiety isnt a good thing, but fearing it isnt either.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

A few quotes from Seneca:

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[Horn]

it seems to me that Epicurus may have been a bit obsessed with avoiding anxiety. of course anxiety isnt a good thing, but fearing it isnt either.

He's reading the signals properly and responding appropriately, imo.

I had first thought the avoidance of "the crowd" was animated about a little bit too "flakeishly" but when I'd thought about it more it seems it was a conflict to the core principals, and he was reading the signs.

The atmosphere of the human arena is truly horrifying and painful strife when trying to put reason into it. :)

The fear of death overcome outweighs all others, and removes heaps of anxiety. Its not so much avoidance as it is active removal. I'm sure he was lead into many an anxious situation with his philosophy. Or what you might originally define as anxious.

[Horn]

Epicurus to Menoeceus, greetings:

Let no one be slow to seek wisdom when he is young nor weary in the search of it when he has grown old. For no age is too early or too late for the health of the soul. And to say that the season for studying philosophy has not yet come, or that it is past and gone, is like saying that the season for happiness is not yet or that it is now no more. Therefore, both old and young alike ought to seek wisdom, the former in order that, as age comes over him, he may be young in good things because of the grace of what has been, and the latter in order that, while he is young, he may at the same time be old, because he has no fear of the things which are to come. So we must exercise ourselves in the things which bring happiness, since, if that be present, we have everything, and, if that be absent, all our actions are directed towards attaining it.


Those things which without ceasing I have declared unto you, do them, and exercise yourself in them, holding them to be the elements of right life. First believe that God is a living being immortal and blessed, according to the notion of a god indicated by the common sense of mankind;

and so believing, you shall not affirm of him anything that is foreign to his immortality or that is repugnant to his blessedness. Believe about him whatever may uphold both his blessedness and his immortality. For there are gods, and the knowledge of them is manifest; but they are not such as the multitude believe, seeing that men do not steadfastly maintain the notions they form respecting them. Not the man who denies the gods worshipped by the multitude, but he who affirms of the gods what the multitude believes about them is truly impious. For the utterances of the multitude about the gods are not true preconceptions but false assumptions; hence it is that the greatest evils happen to the wicked and the greatest blessings happen to the good from the hand of the gods, seeing that they are always favorable to their own good qualities and take pleasure in men like themselves, but reject as alien whatever is not of their kind.

Life is not improved by adding infinite time; removing the desire for immortality is what’s required. There is no reason why one who is convinced that there is nothing to fear at death should fear anything about it during life. And whoever says that he dreads death not because it’s painful to experience, but only because it’s painful to contemplate, is foolish. It is pointless to agonize over something that brings no trouble when it arrives. So death, the most dreaded of evils, is nothing to us, because when we exist, death is not present, and when death is present, we do not exist. It neither concerns the living nor the dead, since death does not exist for the living, and the dead no longer exist.

Most people, however, either dread death as the greatest of suffering or long for it as a relief from suffering. One who is wise neither renounces life nor fears not living. Life does not offend him, nor does he suppose that not living is any kind of suffering. For just as he would not choose the greatest amount of food over what is most delicious, so too he does not seek the longest possible life, but rather the happiest. But in the world, at one time men shun death as the greatest of all evils, and at another time choose it as a respite from the evils in life. The wise man does not deprecate life nor does he fear the cessation of life. The thought of life is no offense to him, nor is the cessation of life regarded as an evil. And even as men choose of food not merely and simply the larger portion, but the more pleasant, so the wise seek to enjoy the time which is most pleasant and not merely that which is longest.

And he who admonishes the young to live well and the old to make a good end speaks foolishly, not merely because of the desirability of life, but because the same exercise at once teaches to live well and to die well.

Much worse is he who says that it were good not to be born, but when once one is born to pass quickly through the gates of Hades. For if he truly believes this, why does he not depart from life?

It would be easy for him to do so once he were firmly convinced. If he speaks only in jest, his words are foolishness as those who hear him do not believe.

We must remember that the future is neither wholly ours nor wholly not ours, so that neither must we count upon it as quite certain to come nor despair of it as quite certain not to come.

We must also reflect that of desires some are natural, others are groundless; and that of the natural some are necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live. He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body and tranquillity of mind, seeing that this is the sum and end of a blessed life. For the end of all our actions is to be free from pain and fear, and, when once we have attained all this, the tempest of the soul is laid; seeing that the living creature has no need to go in search of something that is lacking, nor to look for anything else by which the good of the soul and of the body will be fulfilled. When we are pained because of the absence of pleasure, then, and then only, do we feel the need of pleasure. Wherefore we call pleasure the alpha and omega of a blessed life. Pleasure is our first and kindred good. It is the starting-point of every choice and of every aversion, and to it we come back, inasmuch as we make feeling the rule by which to judge of every good thing.

And since pleasure is our first and native good, for that reason we do not choose every pleasure whatsoever, but will often pass over many pleasures when a greater annoyance ensues from them. And often we consider pains superior to pleasures when submission to the pains for a long time brings us as a consequence a greater pleasure. While therefore all pleasure because it is naturally akin to us is good, not all pleasure is should be chosen, just as all pain is an evil and yet not all pain is to be shunned. It is, however, by measuring one against another, and by looking at the conveniences and inconveniences, that all these matters must be judged. Sometimes we treat the good as an evil, and the evil, on the contrary, as a good.

Again, we regard independence of outward things as a great good, not so as in all cases to use little, but so as to be contented with little if we have not much, being honestly persuaded that they have the sweetest enjoyment of luxury who stand least in need of it, and that whatever is natural is easily procured and only the vain and worthless hard to win. Plain fare gives as much pleasure as a costly diet, when once the pain of want has been removed, while bread and water confer the highest possible pleasure when they are brought to hungry lips. To habituate one's self, therefore, to simple and inexpensive diet supplies all that is needful for health, and enables a man to meet the necessary requirements of life without shrinking, and it places us in a better condition when we approach at intervals a costly fare and renders us fearless of fortune.

When we say, then, that pleasure is the end and aim, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice, or willful misrepresentation. By pleasure we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not an unbroken succession of drinking-bouts and of revelry, not sexual lust, not the enjoyment of the fish and other delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life; it is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance, and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest tumults take possession of the soul. Of all this the beginning and the greatest good is wisdom. Therefore wisdom is a more precious thing even than philosophy ; from it spring all the other virtues, for it teaches that we cannot live pleasantly without living wisely, honorably, and justly; nor live wisely, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly. For the virtues have grown into one with a pleasant life, and a pleasant life is inseparable from them.

Who, then, is superior in your judgment to such a man? He holds a holy belief concerning the gods, and is altogether free from the fear of death. He has diligently considered the end fixed by nature, and understands how easily the limit of good things can be reached and attained, and how either the duration or the intensity of evils is but slight. Fate, which some introduce as sovereign over all things, he scorns, affirming rather that some things happen of necessity, others by chance, others through our own agency. For he sees that necessity destroys responsibility and that chance is inconstant; whereas our own actions are autonomous, and it is to them that praise and blame naturally attach. It were better, indeed, to accept the legends of the gods than to bow beneath that yoke of destiny which the natural philosophers have imposed. The one holds out some faint hope that we may escape if we honor the gods, while the necessity of the naturalists is deaf to all entreaties. Nor does he hold chance to be a god, as the world in general does, for in the acts of a god there is no disorder; nor to be a cause, though an uncertain one, for he believes that no good or evil is dispensed by chance to men so as to make life blessed, though it supplies the starting-point of great good and great evil. He believes that the misfortune of the wise is better than the prosperity of the fool. It is better, in short, that what is well judged in action should not owe its successful issue to the aid of chance.

Exercise yourself in these and related precepts day and night, both by yourself and with one who is like-minded; then never, either in waking or in dream, will you be disturbed, but will live as a god among men. For man loses all semblance of mortality by living in the midst of immortal blessings.

http://rocket.csusb.edu/~tmoody/menoeceus



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhGeH07lo5M

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

A single issue can sometimes summarize the gulf between two opposing schools of thought better than any philosophical tract. The differing Stoic and Epicurean attitude toward politics is one such issue.

Both schools broke with the older Greek political ideal of all citizens having duties towards their fellow citizens for the common good of the city-state. Stoics rejected this ideal as too parochial as mankind are united together by virtue of our common humanity and therefore with duties towards each other regardless of citizenship. For a Stoic, virtue alone is the highest good and personal salvation is available to everyone through the pursuit of virtue irrespective of external circumstances.

For Epicureans however the highest good is not virtue but pleasure, and the most pleasant life is a tranquil self-sufficient life spent perusing simple pleasures while surrounded by friends. Epicureanism broke more radically with the older Greek ideal of duty towards fellow citizens by advocating a near withdrawal from society to communitarian living based around mutually agreed contractual laws. Epicurus himself explicitly warned against engaging in politics because the 'natural good' of political life - fame, riches, security, power - could be achieved far more easily by living a simple life free from political worries.

This presents a strange contrast between Stoicism and Epicureanism. Stoicism, with it's emphasis on introversion and detachment, is strongly individualistic; yet it also teaches our duty is to serve fellow humans. Epicureanism recommends friendship and communal living; but also recommends withdrawing from society and avoiding politics. So it does appear, perhaps surprisingly, the communitarian Epicureanism is more egoistical and self-involved.

But this is not the complete picture. Epicurus believed the purpose of philosophy is to heal sick souls and some scholars suggest he viewed the wider Greek society as hopelessly sick and corrupt. His solution was not political reform but a version of evangelistic witnessing with Epicurean communities serving as examples of a life lived well. People would become Epicurean through their own desire to flourish.

http://throughablogdarkly.blogspot.ie/2014/06/epicureanism-political-non-participation.html

[Horn]

Well stated,

I think most find out in time that there's always something unfinished or flawed by running their lives by some political ideal, or principle.

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnmAmLju-RY

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeCGKom_jOY#t=298

http://newepicurean.com/

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVrZmembmis