Bitcoin is Currently a Mania

[madfranks]

I've been thinking about this long and hard and have come to the conclusion that bitcoin, along with all other virtual currencies, are currently a mania. It wasn't originally this way. Up until bitcoin breached $100 and kept rising, it's function as a useful medium of exchange was actively being built and used. Merchants were setting up means by which to transact in it, and people were in fact buying and selling goods and services with bitcoins. That's what first attracted me to them, and when I first bought bitcoins, I used them to buy things online. It was fun, I understood them, and I saw lots of potential for bitcoins to be real competition with government fiat. However, since then, the whole bitcoin phenomena has morphed into a craze or a mania of sorts. Nobody right now is buying bitcoins in order to use them as money. Nobody is buying them to use them for their originally intended function, which is to act as a private means of exchange and a way to bypass the monopoly of government money. In fact, the opposite is true right now, everyone buying bitcoins right now has one goal in mind: to ride the wave up and cash out for government money at a profit. I've already been contacted by a few friends who are now asking me for advice on how to "invest" in bitcoins. That's not what they are about! This is a fundamental difference between what bitcoin was 18 months ago to what it is now. Because I am convinced that what we're seeing is a mania, I am certain that there will be a catastrophic crash once there is a shortage of new people buying in to continue to make the price go up. When will this be? I have no clue, as it really does seem that we're only at the beginning. Bitcoins could be 10x, 25x, or maybe even 100x what they are now before this happens, but when it does, it will ruin a great many people and turn so many people off to crypto coins that the actual, original intended purpose of bitcoins might never be realized.

[Glass]

I saw an article talking about 400 something companies that now accept bitcoin. I think that is the death of bitcoin. You now have conglomerates acquiring bitcoins in exchange for goods that they are backed for by people who can print as much fiat to buy as much bitcoin as they want for nothing.

They could acquire all of bit coin for little to no cost. All it takes is patience. The mania is a way to change the complexion of the bitcoin community fairly rapidly. When people want to invest in it you know that is happening.

Who do you think is going to win this battle?

[Horn]

The scalping fee rate for converting back into dollars (selling them) would seem to have to rise, that would be a healthy free market expansion.

In my estimation tptb have as quick plans to use this E-coin "mania" to group them all under an umbrella, and then remove their underlying "finiteness" by pumping and dumping back and forth through the lot of them.

"Stability" will then be sold down from above in another that encapsulates them all in a deflationary jaws of death device E-digital nothingness coin, complete with a fleets of operating middle men set to eat away at you.

[Ares]

This guy seems to have a pretty good comparison to why Bitcoin is rising Madfranks


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHUPPYzzZrI

His conclusion is that it's a rational and natural rise along any S-curve from Rats reproducing on an isolated island, to viruses, bacteria, twitter, google. etc.

Don't pay any mind to the piss ant apologist here. They've deluded themselves into thinking that Gold and Silver while locked up in massive quantities by those who control our current monetary system is going to somehow be the freedom of humanity. They can't seem to explain how using gold and silver while not even transportable in a digital way in the 21st century is ever going to be able to be used to buy items online. Let alone get used in every day transactions. It's a nice pipe dream. BUT IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Gold and Silver are a store of value.

Neither one em has yet come up with even a mediocre explanation of how a P2P network can be controlled. :rolleyes:

Don't even bother taking criticism from those who have no idea how a technology works, let alone are a complete failure in even looking at alternatives. I don't even bother with them anymore. Complete waste of time. You'd have better results teaching your cat the merits of dog ownership.

[Horn]

Oh good Ares is here to explain the availability of silver in walls of Detroit enough to save the abandoned city.

Yes, due to crime in the streets of Detroit the happy encased rats are forced to have everything delivered to their house by tptb's online and oil system instead walking down to the corner store with their own two feet and a mercury dime. Any larger T.V. and household appliance items needing to be financed purchased through tptbs same oil wheel delivery system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5TwT69i1lU

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-nsc-china-should-issue-gold-bullion-coins-that-arent-20131101,0,6460922.stor

[Shami-Amourae]

I have no fucking clue. I hope Ares is right though.

I admit I'm into speculation. I have no plans on cashing out anything I gain in dollars unless its to buy a serious RL investment like real estate. All of my gains go into buying more Bitcoin. I trade with alt-cryptos and buy more Bitcoins.

[Ares]

Oh good Ares is here to explain the availability of silver in walls of Detroit to save the abandoned city.

Yes, due to crime in the streets of Detroit the happy encased rats are forced to have everything delivered to their house by tptb's online and oil system instead walking down to the corner store with their own two feet and a mercury dime. Any larger T.V. and household appliance items needing to be financed purchased through tptbs same oil wheel delivery system.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5TwT69i1lU

Horn I don't even bother reading your useless drivel anymore when it comes to Bitcoin or crypto currencies.

Instead all I see is this when you post about something you have no idea about and really shouldn't even be commenting on.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

[Sparky]

It may be that the tug-of-war between bitcoin's use as a medium of exchange and it's "investment" potential will lead to its demise. There's a new wave of merchants announcing their acceptance of bitcoins during the holiday season.

Now, even if bitcoin is totally legit, it's exchange rate needs to stabilize, which means it needs to eventually head back toward its 200-day moving average, which is currently around $200, before beginning its next ascent.

One of these days, there's going to be an unlucky group of merchants who dole out $1200 worth of merchandise, only to see the BTC redemption value drop to $900 the next day, an immediate 25% loss. They may wait, and see the rate drop to $700, then $600, then $500. It's going to leave an awfully bad taste.

[drafter]

The way I see it is that we can win both ways. Should this whole crypto currency thing go out of fashion, most of us here are still happy with our gold and silver. Should crypto currencies take off, we've diversified and will have more to spend on gold and silver. Either way we win! I really don't understand all the negativity towards something new. Oh the irony of complaining about digital currencies on this crazy new fangled thing called the internet. Maybe Horn would appreciate it more if we sent all our replies by handwritten letter delivered by pony express. Paid for with a silver dime of course.

[Ares]

The way I see it is that we can win both ways. Should this whole crypto currency thing go out of fashion, most of us here are still happy with our gold and silver. Should crypto currencies take off, we've diversified and will have more to spend on gold and silver. Either way we win! I really don't understand all the negativity towards something new. Oh the irony of complaining about digital currencies on this crazy new fangled thing called the internet. Maybe Horn would appreciate it more if we sent all our replies by handwritten letter delivered by pony express. Paid for with a silver dime of course.

You summed it up very well. I haven't sold a single ounce of gold or silver to invest in Bitcoin or other alternative crypto currencies. I have every single ounce I started with, and hope to accumulate more. Diversification is never a bad thing. The internet changed the world, let's hope this medium of exchange can do the same for our 300+ year monetary system designed for mass enslavement.

I still view it as the free market coming up with a decentralized solution to a centralized problem.

[Horn]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

Bitcoin changes nothing Ares, its a continuation of the same caged rat and tptb oil wheel delivery system.

Silver would change things, and why you cry about my "dribble" for which you fear contention.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddCZYeAaGGk

[Sparky]

The other thing about bitcoins: They aren't anything.

Think about it. By definition, a bit coin at its rawest level is really a certain arrangement of electrons that meet some prescribed configuration. You don't even really own the electrons. It's like handing out 21 million Rubics Cubes, and declaring that the ones that are aligned properly will henceforth have value. Except the Rubics Cubes are invisible, and can only be viewed with some other aparatus. Intrinsically, the cubes have no more physical value being properly aligned, but some anonymous person has declared it to be so.

Paper money actually has two advantages. First, it is a highly quality-controlled paper that can be held and stored in your pocket. Second, its issuing agency has committed to awarding it value in paying for government services rendered through taxes. Though it's value is eroded with time, it is done in an organized methodical manner which provides the holder ample time to make decisions about its deployment.

The creator of bitcoin has made no such promises, nor has the assets to be in a position to do so. He has invented a Trivial Pursuit game with 21 million questions, and has declared that answered questions should have redemption value.

[Ares]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

*Yawn*.. You were saying something?

[Ares]

The other thing about bitcoins: They aren't anything.

Think about it. By definition, a bit coin at its rawest level is really a certain arrangement of electrons that meet some prescribed configuration. You don't even really own the electrons. It's like handing out 21 million Rubics Cubes, and declaring that the ones that are aligned properly will henceforth have value. Except the Rubics Cubes are invisible, and can only be viewed with some other aparatus. Intrinsically, the cubes have no more physical value being properly aligned, but some anonymous person has declared it to be so.

Paper money actually has two advantages. First, it is a highly quality-controlled paper that can be held and stored in your pocket. Second, its issuing agency has committed to awarding it value it paying for government services rendered through taxes. Though it's value is eroded with time, it is done in an organized methodical manner which provides the holder ample time to make decisions about its deployment.

The creator of bitcoin has made no such promises, nor has the assets to be in a position to do so. He has invented a Trivial Pursuit game with 21 million questions, and has declared that answered questions should have redemption value.

The only problem with your assestment is that the U.S. Dollar is 70% digital now. Very little is even cash anymore. So what's different about the U.S. dollar being digital and Bitcoin? Because I can "hold" the digital equivalent with a debt attached instrument?

He (they?) just created a protocol for a medium of exchange. It was up to the people if they use it or not. No one made them, there were no laws forced upon them to accept it. It's value is determined by the free market not Keynesian academics in ivory towers.

[EE_]

The Fed has to be loving this mania. It has managed to do what they have been desperately trying for through the whole QE program...velocity of money, to create inflation.

Bitcoin is a Federal Reserve dream come true!
'Velocity Of Money'
The rate at which money is exchanged from one transaction to another, and how much a unit of currency is used in a given period of time. Velocity of money is usually measured as a ratio of GNP to a country's total supply of money.

Velocity is important for measuring the rate at which money in circulation is used for purchasing goods and services. This helps investors gauge how robust the economy is, and is a key input in the determination of an economy's inflation calculation. Economies that exhibit a higher velocity of money relative to others tend to be further along in the business cycle and should have a higher rate of inflation, all things held constant.

I wonder what the fees will be in the future to convert bitcoin dollars back to FRN's...my guess, probably about what paypal charges?

[Shami-Amourae]

The other thing about bitcoins: They aren't anything.

Think about it. By definition, a bit coin at its rawest level is really a certain arrangement of electrons that meet some prescribed configuration. You don't even really own the electrons. It's like handing out 21 million Rubics Cubes, and declaring that the ones that are aligned properly will henceforth have value. Except the Rubics Cubes are invisible, and can only be viewed with some other aparatus. Intrinsically, the cubes have no more physical value being properly aligned, but some anonymous person has declared it to be so.

Paper money actually has two advantages. First, it is a highly quality-controlled paper that can be held and stored in your pocket. Second, its issuing agency has committed to awarding it value in paying for government services rendered through taxes. Though it's value is eroded with time, it is done in an organized methodical manner which provides the holder ample time to make decisions about its deployment.

The creator of bitcoin has made no such promises, nor has the assets to be in a position to do so. He has invented a Trivial Pursuit game with 21 million questions, and has declared that answered questions should have redemption value.


It's meant to be a currency, not money. Gold and Silver are money. They are stores of value. You hold your wealth in Gold/Silver and buy stuff online/electronically with cryptocurrencies outside the SWIFT system. Both work together. We need both to be free of the bankers.

[Ares]

The Fed has to be loving this mania. It has managed to do what they have been desperately trying for through the whole QE program...velocity of money, to create inflation.

Bitcoin is a Federal Reserve dream come true!
'Velocity Of Money'
The rate at which money is exchanged from one transaction to another, and how much a unit of currency is used in a given period of time. Velocity of money is usually measured as a ratio of GNP to a country's total supply of money.

Velocity is important for measuring the rate at which money in circulation is used for purchasing goods and services. This helps investors gauge how robust the economy is, and is a key input in the determination of an economy's inflation calculation. Economies that exhibit a higher velocity of money relative to others tend to be further along in the business cycle and should have a higher rate of inflation, all things held constant.

I wonder what the fees will be in the future to convert bitcoin dollars back to FRN's...my guess, probably about what paypal charges?

:rolleyes:

Yeah ok bozo, how is the money velocity working for the dollar when the highest volume exchanges are in China and Japan?

Good god you people just pull shit straight out of your ass for baseless accusations.

"Dee de dee" yeah uhh duh the fed just loves da bitcoin ba cause FRN's are uh floing into itz" "dah I don wunt to see dat most exchanges uze other currencies dan da dollar" duh.... *wipes drool from chin*

[Horn]

E-coins are derivative mania, the natural extension of tptb's oil death delivery system.

With ancillary benefits of supporting research and development money for computer robot borg utility devices.

The computer is nothing more than a tool, a utility device less evolutionary than your common adjustable wrench.

[EE_]

:rolleyes:

Yeah ok bozo, how is the money velocity working for the dollar when the highest volume exchanges are in China and Japan?

Good god you people just pull shit straight out of your ass for baseless accusations.

"Dee de dee" yeah uhh duh the fed just loves da bitcoin ba cause FRN's are uh floing into itz" "dah I don wunt to see dat most exchanges uze other currencies dan da dollar" duh.... *wipes drool from chin*

Well jerk-off...the dollar is the global reserve currency and more dollars are used in the rest of the world then even you could imagine are used in the US.

Tell me why you think the Fed wouldn't be in favor of 'Bitcoin Federal Reserve notes'?

[Ares]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

.....

[Ares]

Well jerk-off...the dollar is the global reserve currency and more dollars are used in the rest of the world then even you could imagine are used in the US.

Tell me why you think the Fed wouldn't be in favor of 'Bitcoin Federal Reserve notes'?

Because dipshit China no longer buys treasuries and has plans to remove the dollar from its crumbling pedestal. What good is a controlled debt based currency? BTC China eclipses Japans MtGox for volume, and Coinbase (u.s. exchange) doesn't even make it in the top 5. So where is this FRN money velocity that you speak of? BTCChina DOES NOT ACCEPT or USE U.S. Dollars. If you knew a fucking thing about crypto currencies you wouldn't look like such a fool trying to justify your paranoia. You and Horn are perfect for each other. Bashing something you have no idea about, and looking completely stupid doing it because your baseless accusations aren't matching up to reality. Just try getting U.S. dollars out of MtGox, your going to wait about a month. So much for that money velocity. The U.S. is being left behind because of their oppressive surveillance apparatus, debt based monetary system that only benefits those at the top and screws everyone else.

Tell me, how the fed is going to control a decentralized p2p based medium of exchange for their benefit? If it's mined in China, or Russia, how is the U.S. going to tax it to support their military? Government? police state? How?

You can come up with all the baseless bullshit excuses in the world, and you and horn have certainly tried. But to anyone here who knows anything about crypto currencies, your bullshit theories just don't pan out. Because you can't explain how, and continue to fail to do so. Why not stick to general topics? You're in crypto currencies where crypto's will be discussed. I know, I know, taboo subject but we have our own subsection here on gsus. If you don't want to learn about it, and continue to just throw shit and hope it sticks feel free not to post under this subsection.

[EE_]

Understand you sperm burping barn faggot, if I was in on the con game and making money hand over fist, I'd be cheering my ass off that bitcoin is the greatest thing, just like you are. I'd still think it's a piece of shit as a currency, but I'd have big plans for the FRN's after I banked the winnings.
There's money to be made, no denying it.

I do believe the Fed is loving bitcoin.
They want nothing more then to have an all digital currency. And they will get their taxes in the end, count on it!
The only tax you'll beat at the moment, is the peer to peer transactions...the same as you can with FRN's now.

[Horn]

Just try getting U.S. dollars out of MtGox, your going to wait about a month.

Don't forget the scalping fees, and you call it a competing currency, pfft.

Dollar moving digits is all the velocity the Fed needs, China wants some too...Let's talk more about yuan regulations in relation to dollar regulations, maybe in the general area of free acceptance elsewhere would be a good place to start?

Some tulip bulb Van Halen Best of Both World's to ponder it over...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF6j-qEIXm8

Maybe we could do this over Alaxander Bell's telephone easier.

I like the way Bitcoin's line runs up the back of the stocking... :)

http://www.vintagevictory.com/sites/default/files/JA%20Seduction%20Set%20Stocking%20Suspenders.jpg

But, Ares walks to all his Bitcoin transactions though...lol!

Try poofting somewhere else, dudette.

[Ares]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

.....

[EE_]

I don't know why dildo-breath is so adamant the everyone agree with him that bitcoin is a legitamate currency?
Why get so upset when people don't? There's always going to be nay-sayers in whatever...people that see things differently. For some reason he can't get that through his fat head.

I'll tell you what, if I was winning gambling on bitcoin, you could say whatever you want about it and I could give a shit if you believed it or not.
If it did bother me, I'd give you a standard answer. "I'm making money and you're not!...I don't care what you say"

I guess some people just need to convince other's they are right and they're willing to fight to do that. It's not enough to win the game, everyone has to be convinced why he won the game. I don't get it?

Bitcoin is a tulip mania, a con by the masters. That's what I think.

I'm going to start Beenie-Baby Coins!

[madfranks]

I hate that I have to keep saying this, but knock off the personal attacks. You don't need to call people names to make your point. I don't want to have to dish out any more bans, so please keep it civil.

[madfranks]

Ares, I haven't watched the movie you posted, but is there really much doubt that right now the price of BTC is moving up due to speculation, and not because people find it a useful medium of exchange?

[EE_]

I hate that I have to keep saying this, but knock off the personal attacks. You don't need to call people names to make your point. I don't want to have to dish out any more bans, so please keep it civil.

Hear that Ares?...
It makes you sound like a loser when you have to attack people, even when you're winning.
You must be a real peach when you're losing at something.

[Ares]

Understand you sperm burping barn faggot, if I was in on the con game and making money hand over fist, I'd be cheering my ass off that bitcoin is the greatest thing, just like you are. I'd still think it's a piece of shit as a currency, but I'd have big plans for the FRN's after I banked the winnings.
There's money to be made, no denying it.

I do believe the Fed is loving bitcoin.
They want nothing more then to have an all digital currency. And they will get their taxes in the end, count on it!
The only tax you'll beat at the moment, is the peer to peer transactions...the same as you can with FRN's now.

So you're crying because you didn't get into it when it was affordable? I'm trying to understand why you're crying so hard. You have sand in your vagina?

You can "believe" that the fed loves bitcoin all you want with your full faith and ignorance. Just because you "believe" it doesn't make it so. I've asked for proof, you've provided NONE. I've ask how, you provided none. I asked why, and you come up with bullshit, after bullshit, after bullshit. Like anyone else who has critical thinking skills. I want to know what you are basing this "feeling" on. Until you can, just shut the fuck up. You just keep looking like a fucking retard with a rubber helmet on banging your head into the wall because you can't figure out what makes an airplane fly. :rolleyes:

What "peer to peer FRN transactions"? Where the fuck did you come up with that nonsense?

I never denied they wouldn't be able to tax it. I am positive that they will try, but if you stay and do business in Bitcoin or any other crypto currency what exactly is there to tax? At this point in time, it's considered a form of electronic barter. The only place I see them even getting "their" tax is at a point of sale. Which is what the vast majority of the sheep already want "A flat rate sales tax". Well that would fill that role. Not being an FRN and not a form of wages it's not able to be taxed as income.

I guess I should just jump on the band wagon of ONLY gold and silver? Even though the vast majority is locked away by the controlling parties of our current monetary system right? That what you're advocating? No alternative whatsoever? Just "stay the course" even knowing it's manipulated daily right out in the open and they control over 90% of it?

Yeah ok, whatever you say. :rolleyes: keep me posted on how that works out for ya.

[Ares]

Ares, I haven't watched the movie you posted, but is there really much doubt that right now the price of BTC is moving up due to speculation, and not because people find it a useful medium of exchange?

The author of the video says that the volatility that we see is what the tech giants saw in the very beginning, but no one ever gets to see before an IPO due to SEC regulations.

It's worth the watch if you have 20 minutes or so.

[Ares]

Hear that Ares?...
It makes you sound like a loser when you have to attack people, even when you're winning.
You must be a real peach when you're losing at something.

http://www.hasslefreeclipart.com/clipart_babies/images/baby_crying2.gif

[Ares]

I don't know why dildo-breath is so adamant the everyone agree with him that bitcoin is a legitamate currency?
Why get so upset when people don't? There's always going to be nay-sayers in whatever...people that see things differently. For some reason he can't get that through his fat head.

I'll tell you what, if I was winning gambling on bitcoin, you could say whatever you want about it and I could give a shit if you believed it or not.
If it did bother me, I'd give you a standard answer. "I'm making money and you're not!...I don't care what you say"

I guess some people just need to convince other's they are right and they're willing to fight to do that. It's not enough to win the game, everyone has to be convinced why he won the game. I don't get it?

Bitcoin is a tulip mania, a con by the masters. That's what I think.

I'm going to start Beenie-Baby Coins!

Not at all, just get tired of seeing baseless bullshit. You say it's a "con by the masters". Okay, SHOW ME!! That's what has me pissed off more than anything is these baseless pointless accusations. Show me the proof. I'm tired of seeing you and Horn say it's this or that with no evidence whatsoever. It just looks completely stupid because you 2 have no idea what you're talking about.

I can show you the manipulation of the dollar, gold, silver, and oil. Show me how crypto currencies are controlled.

No one is stopping you from starting a "Beenie-baby coin" somehow I think you lack the technological understanding of how to create that coin. I'll just call it a hunch.

[sirgonzo420]

I'll just pull a book and talk with pictures:

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.imgur.com/Tb3aF0F.png&fnr

The "mania" of Bitcoin has not even begun, in my estimation. And Bitcoin will succeed or fail with or without me. But if it succeeds, then having some now might come in handy...

[Horn]

.....

Must be walking to his next personal Bitcoin exchange with laptop in tow?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G74SbKYOTLI

Maybe he's got a horse, yeah that's it!

[Ares]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

...

[Horn]

...

Gonna have to wash that mouth out wit some Bitcoin soap.



Sanitizing Bitcoin: This Company Wants To Track 'Clean' Bitcoin Accounts

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

[Horn]

even when you're winning.

Nobody can get enough tulip bulbs, soreness sets in from lack of more tulip bulbs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY3svQwQIUc

Even when the first intentions were the best of predictable finite supply intentions.

Safe to say, Some muffins divide better than others...

[EE_]

Don't play that childish playground 'prove it' bullshit with me.
Just because you say prove it, doesn't make you right.

You prove that I'm wrong that the Fed is happy about bitcoin.
All you have is rising prices and a wet dream to make your case.

Apparentely you know the Fed personally and everything the NSA is doing regarding the surveillance control grid.

[Ares]

Don't play that childish playground 'prove it' bullshit with me.
Just because you say prove it, doesn't make you right.

You prove that I'm wrong that the Fed is happy about bitcoin.
All you have is rising prices and a wet dream to make your case.

Apparentely you know the Fed personally and everything the NSA is doing regarding the surveillance control grid.

So you're not going to prove your "feeling" I take it? Just going to follow on your "belief"?

I'm not playing anything, I'm asking you to put your money where your mouth is. Don't write checks your ass can't cash.

How can a government, or central bank control a decentralized P2P technology?
Do you know anything about cryptography? If so what do you know about SHA-256?
What's a reverse hashing algorithm and why can't even a quantum computer crack it?
Do you know anything about P2P technology?
Where did you come up with the bullshit "peer to peer FRN transactions"? That's a new one to me.
How can a government tax a currency it did not create and does not control?
How can the U.S. government tell China, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, India, etc. on what they can or cannot do with Bitcoin or crypto currencies in general?
How are they going to stop the Chinese from using crypto currencies?

Did you even bother looking at the Bitcoin whitepaper? Source Code? the basic economic theory behind it?

Can you even answer any of these questions?
Or just keep throwing shit hoping that something eventually sticks?

Per your typical non-response on previous questions of this nature, I'll just expect silence and more shit flinging. :rolleyes:

For your other typical baseless accusation I'm not making anything on Bitcoin. I haven't cashed out, so where are my "gains"? I don't know if it'll win, or if it will get crushed. Unlike you I choose not to sit on my ass and actually pursue a real possibility. If it fails, so what? I didn't lose what I didn't have. The idea is what has value, it's the idea that we do not need a government or a central banking cartel controlling our currency that is the pinnacle of this endeavor. It would be great if it succeeds, but I'm not physic and have no idea what card they might play to try and crush it. But I do know through a lot of research (something you appear to lack in this subject matter) that it is not currently controlled, and would be extremely difficult to do so considering the global nature of it's architecture.

[Horn]

Even a oneway ticket with scalped and delayed return to and from Mt. Gox is better than a noway ticket.

http://moneyweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/13-11-26-DR-1.gif

Just in the nick of time with that S&P peaking out also. How fortunate, and what timing!

[EE_]

So you're not going to prove your "feeling" I take it? Just going to follow on your "belief"?

I'm not playing anything, I'm asking you to put your money where your mouth is. Don't write checks your ass can't cash.

How can a government, or central bank control a decentralized P2P technology?
A. They can make any law they wish in their own country.

Do you know anything about cryptography? If so what do you know about SHA-256?
What's a reverse hashing algorithm and why can't even a quantum computer crack it?
Do you know anything about P2P technology?
A. You know more then I. What you don't know is how controlled the internet has become and what new technology is being develveloped that will control it.

Where did you come up with the bullshit "peer to peer FRN transactions"? That's a new one to me.
A. I'm refering to a two party exchange

How can a government tax a currency it did not create and does not control?
A. By banning it?

How can the U.S. government tell China, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, India, etc. on what they can or cannot do with Bitcoin or crypto currencies in general?
How are they going to stop the Chinese from using crypto currencies?
A. Why don't you stick to the US. I'm not going to China, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, India, etc...are you?
I don't see anyone transfering millions of dollars in an unsecured computer algorithm that's subject to being hacked, or that might crash at any time.

Did you even bother looking at the Bitcoin whitepaper? Source Code? the basic economic theory behind it?
A. Yes, all sounds great. Charles Ponzi had a great whitepaper too!

Can you even answer any of these questions?
Or just keep throwing shit hoping that something eventually sticks?

Per your typical non-response on previous questions of this nature, I'll just expect silence and more shit flinging. :rolleyes:

For your other typical baseless accusation I'm not making anything on Bitcoin. I haven't cashed out, so where are my "gains"? I don't know if it'll win, or if it will get crushed. Unlike you I choose not to sit on my ass and actually pursue a real possibility. If it fails, so what? I didn't lose what I didn't have. The idea is what has value, it's the idea that we do not need a government or a central banking controlling our currency that is pinnacle of this endeavor. It would be great if it succeeds, but I'm not physic and have no idea what card they might play to try and crush it. But I do know through a lot of research (something you appear to lack in this subject matter) that it is not currently controlled, and would be extremely difficult to do so considering the global nature of it's architecture.

You've really shown your true colors. And they're brown, just like an asshole.

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGIOip5zc4

What kind of a dumbass sells "illegal" drugs on the internet?

Excusing the Bitcoin drug, of course.

[Sparky]

I'll just pull a book and talk with pictures:

...

The "mania" of Bitcoin has not even begun, in my estimation. And Bitcoin will succeed or fail with or without me. But if it succeeds, then having some now might come in handy...

How can you look at that chart and think the mania has not even begun?

[Ares]

How can a government, or central bank control a decentralized P2P technology?
A. They can make any law they wish in their own country.

That they can, and always will. But what's stop anyone from installing Tor and transferring their BTC's outside of the country? Or hell even placing them into a paper wallet which is off the internet entirely.


Do you know anything about cryptography? If so what do you know about SHA-256?
What's a reverse hashing algorithm and why can't even a quantum computer crack it?
Do you know anything about P2P technology?
A. You know more then I. What you don't know is how controlled the internet has become and what new technology is being develveloped that will control it.

I know it's controlled quite a bit, and the choke point always is and always has been the Root DNS servers. But with Cryptography they are at a severe disadvantage and that's what scares them the most. That a kid can download an encryption algorithm that can hide his message among useless data that would take every computer on the planet working in unison a million+ years to crack.



How can a government tax a currency it did not create and does not control?
A. By banning it?

Because that's worked so well for P2P file sharing? :rolleyes:


How can the U.S. government tell China, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, India, etc. on what they can or cannot do with Bitcoin or crypto currencies in general?
How are they going to stop the Chinese from using crypto currencies?
A. Why don't you stick to the US. I'm not going to China, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, India, etc...are you?
I don't see anyone transfering millions of dollars in an unsecured computer algorithm that's subject to being hacked, or that might crash at any time.

That's your problem, you're thinking micro instead of macro. Bitcoin isn't isolated to this nation it comes and goes at will regardless if they try to ban it.
For your second remark, at what point is it an unsecure computer algorithm? The Bitcoin Protocol to date has NEVER been compromised. Exchanges and wallets certainly have though. For the most secure way to "hold" bitcoins would have to be the paper wallet solution. Some of these exchanges deal with 30-75 million USD equivalent daily. So some people are putting serious money into it. I've seen million dollar+ orders on the 3rd largest exchange almost every day.


Did you even bother looking at the Bitcoin whitepaper? Source Code? the basic economic theory behind it?
A. Yes, all sounds great. Charles Ponzi had a great whitepaper too!

Just when I thought we were starting to have a civil discourse. Ignorance arises again. Not that I'm surprised I guess. Don't even know the definition of a Ponzi scheme. Just like you didn't even know the definition of fiat. Here I thought you were an educated individual. Thanks for showing me your true colors.

Ponzi Scheme:
A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from existing capital or new capital paid by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.
So whose the investment operation promising these types of returns? :rolleyes:


You've really shown your true colors. And they're brown, just like in ass hole.

Indeed you have.

Thanks for at least trying to answer the questions honestly though. I know it's difficult trying to answer questions for something you don't understand or even want to learn. But thanks. :)

[Horn]

How can you look at that chart and think the mania has not even begun?

If its still there, snort it!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj8W5LhvMtQ

[Ares]

How can you look at that chart and think the mania has not even begun?


Because hardly anyone knows about it, or let alone uses it. It has a market cap of 13 billion. Twitter which isn't even a medium of exchange or has any effective way of generating profit has a market cap of 24.5 billion.

Bitcoin however is competing for market share in international monetary transfers, currency remittance, as well as with regional and global currencies. That is a huge market cap potential. So mania? Maybe? Maybe not? Honestly we don't know. There's never been a newly introduced form of currency in our lifetimes outside of our 300+ year monetary prison system.

[Horn]

Because hardly anyone knows about it, or let alone uses it. It has a market cap of 13 billion. Twitter which isn't even a medium of exchange or has any effective way of generating profit has a market cap of 24.5 billion.

Bitcoin however is competing for market share in international monetary transfers, currency remittance, as well as with regional and global currencies. That is a huge market cap potential. So mania? Maybe? Maybe not? Honestly we don't know. There's never been a newly introduced form of currency in our lifetimes outside of our 300+ year monetary prison system.

Really sounds like you must be purchasing .00001 satoshis daily...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckRaL5ks8Rs



Within such frame work, Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:
1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.
2.) It must be portable. Money hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.
3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:
"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."

and last but not least.


4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.

Or did you mean to say since money's/currency's inception itself?

Because we're talking about something with less intrinsic value than a tulip bulb here.

The value of Bitcoin's utility is no more than Litecoin's or anyone else coin. This should be on par with the service fee charged by a moneygram store, or Bank's International wire service.

[sirgonzo420]

How can you look at that chart and think the mania has not even begun?

Because I'm the only "bitcoiner" that I know locally, other than a couple people that I have introduced to the subject.

When Bitcoin and Facebook are approximately equally well-known, then Bitcoin would be nearer to a "top".

Have you read the bitcoin whitepaper (http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf)?

[Horn]

Because I'm the only "bitcoiner" that I know locally, other than a couple people that I have introduced to the subject.

When Bitcoin and Facebook are approximately equally well-known, then Bitcoin would be nearer to a "top".

Have you read the bitcoin whitepaper (http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf)?

Have you spoken to them about all the other coins that have all the same and even more potential with affordability?

Facebook sounds stable enough to become a currency...

[sirgonzo420]

Have you spoken to them about all the other coins that have all the same and even more potential with affordability?

Link me to the whitepapers in question and I will let you know.

:)

[Horn]

Link me to the whitepapers in question and I will let you know.

:)

They're written on Chinese yuan, and only Chinamen can touch them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HnGNuj9RL0

[Horn]

5748

I took a mobile light, lookin' for a moonbeam. Ow!
Yeah, ya stand in line ya got lost in a jet stream

[Sparky]

Because I'm the only "bitcoiner" that I know locally, other than a couple people that I have introduced to the subject.

When Bitcoin and Facebook are approximately equally well-known, then Bitcoin would be nearer to a "top".

Have you read the bitcoin whitepaper (http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf)?
The bitcoin whitepaper characterizes bitcoin as a peer-to-peer electronic version of cash. It may have had a noble original intent.

But bitcoin is no longer acting as cash. Cash has a reasonably stable value, such that each person in the transaction has a common understanding of the purchasing power of the exchange medium. That's why cash works. I can sell my pig today, and use the cash next month to purchase a chain saw. Not ten chain saws. Not half a chain saw. The buyer isn't hesitant to hand over his cash for fear that next week it would have bought him four pigs.

So the entire premise which is the foundation for the white paper has been blown out of the water. Though it still works mechanically, it has demonstrably failed its original intent. It's become purely speculative. If you think most people engaged in the bitcoin market right now are interested in state-less "peer-to-peer" transactions, you are kidding yourself.

What we have now is massive bitcoin deflation. Its holders do not want to let go of it for fear that it may purchase more tomorrow, due to its grossly disproportionate availability. So it is no longer serving as an exchange medium, in contrast to what is stated in the abstract of the whitepaper.

[Horn]

What we have now is massive bitcoin deflation. Its holders do not want to let go of it for fear that it may purchase more tomorrow, due to its grossly disproportionate availability. So it is no longer serving as an exchange medium, in contrast to what is stated in the abstract of the whitepaper.

That's a pretty good summation there, Sparky.

But it just doesn't matter, because you don't know anything about crypto-currencies.

MtGox is no ordinary exchange, and the 3 major mining guilds are not to be compared to precious metals miners. (unless it satisfies your argument of support) Alls you have to know is that Bernanke is lying when he says he likes it.

Just keep posting nonsense positive posts about white papers, and as the price rises people will thank you for it.

[Dogman]

Houses made of glass.


Or cards...!

[Horn]

Houses made of glass.


Or cards...!

But when it falls we will be rained upon by golden 2.0 satoshi dividends.

Keep looking up, it will be magical when it happens.

[Dogman]

But when it falls we will be rained upon by golden 2.0 satoshi dividends.

Keep looking up, it will be magical when it happens. Sorry I do not want to choke...Also I do not want to trip in this phase of life..

[Horn]

Ares take to the stage... :)

Golden Showers 2.0 tonight only...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzKdYM5Ouo

[Shami-Amourae]

You might like this Horn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWi6H01Nans


Also a useful tool:
Crypto-Currency Market Capitalizations
http://coinmarketcap.com/

[sirgonzo420]

The bitcoin whitepaper characterizes bitcoin as a peer-to-peer electronic version of cash. It may have had a noble original intent.

But bitcoin is no longer acting as cash. Cash has a reasonably stable value, such that each person in the transaction has a common understanding of the purchasing power of the exchange medium. That's why cash works. I can sell my pig today, and use the cash next month to purchase a chain saw. Not ten chain saws. Not half a chain saw. The buyer isn't hesitant to hand over his cash for fear that next week it would have bought him four pigs.

So the entire premise which is the foundation for the white paper has been blown out of the water. Though it still works mechanically, it has demonstrably failed its original intent. It's become purely speculative. If you think most people engaged in the bitcoin market right now are interested in state-less "peer-to-peer" transactions, you are kidding yourself.

What we have now is massive bitcoin deflation. Its holders do not want to let go of it for fear that it may purchase more tomorrow, due to its grossly disproportionate availability. So it is no longer serving as an exchange medium, in contrast to what is stated in the abstract of the whitepaper.

Perhaps. But Bitcoin as a protocol is a revolutionary idea, and it is currently in a somewhat violent (and speculation-fueled) price discovery mode.

If one percent of the trillions of dollars that are in offshore tax havens were put into bitcoin, the price would be $2,000,000+.

In 5 years, one bitcoin will be worth nothing, or $100,000s - $1,000,000s.

It is one opportunity when a well-placed $1 or $10 or $100 or $1000 "investment" could make one a millionaire in dollar standards.

It's a fun little internet play money experiment if nothing else.

[madfranks]

Sparky basically reiterated the premise I put forward in the OP. Bitcoin is currently not functioning as money, but as a speculative commodity. Is this, as gonzo points out, violent price discovery, or is it the modern iteration of tulip mania? I don't know, but I am in for the ride.

[Horn]

You might like this Horn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWi6H01Nans


Yes the spill over into the all the tiny pore coin part, like a giant zit of nothingness popping onto the face of the Earth.

Some people here have no idea the volume of evil void they have helped raise and elevate to the surface.

It will grow and be consumed by the high priests communion,

we will be left cast into the void, naked with nothing but our eyes.

The Valley of Death is upon us.

https://myspace.com/fastlane2hell/video/heavy-metal-mob-rules/4565217

[Sparky]

Perhaps. But Bitcoin as a protocol is a revolutionary idea, and it is currently in a somewhat violent (and speculation-fueled) price discovery mode.

If one percent of the trillions of dollars that are in offshore tax havens were put into bitcoin, the price would be $2,000,000+.

In 5 years, one bitcoin will be worth nothing, or $100,000s - $1,000,000s.

It is one opportunity when a well-placed $1 or $10 or $100 or $1000 "investment" could make one a millionaire in dollar standards.

It's a fun little internet play money experiment if nothing else.

Yes, it's an exciting internet play that could be a big score. No argument about that. Best of luck to the players here.

[EE_]

BITCOINS, THE SECOND BIGGEST PONZI SCHEME IN HISTORY
Posted on 29th November 2013 by Zarathustra in Economy

AWD, You can’t say you weren’t warned.

The Number of Fools is Limited
By Gary North



I hereby make a prediction: Bitcoins will go down in history as the most spectacular private Ponzi scheme in history. It will dwarf anything dreamed of by Bernard Madoff. (It will never rival Social Security, however.)

To explain my position, I must do two things. First, I will describe the economics of every Ponzi scheme. Second, I will explain the Austrian school of economics’ theory of the origin of money. My analysis is strictly economic. As far as I know, it is a legal scheme — and should be.

PONZI ECONOMICS

First, someone who no one has ever heard of before announces that he has discovered a way to make money. In the case of Bitcoins, the claim claim is literal. The creator literally made what he says is money, or will be money. He made this money out of digits. He made it out of nothing. Think “Federal Reserve wanna-be.”

Second, the individual claims that a particular market provides unexploited arbitrage opportunities. Something is selling too low. If you buy into the program now, the person running the scheme will be able to sell it high on your behalf. So, you will take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity.

Today, with high-speed trading, arbitrage opportunities last only for a few milliseconds seconds in widely traded markets. Arbitrage opportunities in the commodity futures market last for very short periods. But in the most leveraged and sophisticated of all the futures markets, namely, the currency futures markets, arbitrage opportunities last for so brief a period of time that only high-speed computer programs can take advantage of them.

The individual who sells the Ponzi scheme makes money by siphoning off a large share of the money coming in. In other words, he does not make the investment. But Bitcoins are unique. The money was siphoned off from the beginning. Somebody owned a good percentage of the original digits. Then, by telling his story, this individual created demand for all of the digits. The dollar-value of his share of the Bitcoins appreciates with the other digits.

This strategy was described a generation ago by George Goodman, who wrote under the pseudonym of Adam Smith. You can find it in his book, Supermoney. This is done with financial corporations when individuals create a new business, retain a large share of the shares, and then sell the stock to the public. In this sense, Bitcoins is not a Ponzi scheme. It is simply a supermoney scheme.

The Ponzi aspect of it comes when we look at the justification for Bitcoins. They were sold on the basis that Bitcoins will be an alternative currency. In other words, this will be the money of the future.

The coins will never be the money of the future. This is my main argument.


THE AUSTRIAN SCHOOL’S THEORY OF MONEY’S ORIGINS

The best definition of money was first offered by Austrian economist Carl Menger in 1892. He said that money is the most marketable commodity. This definition was picked up by his disciple, Ludwig von Mises, who presented it in his book, The Theory of Money and Credit, published in 1912.

In that book, Mises argued, as Menger had before him, that money arises out of market transactions. That which did not function as money before, now functions as money. Something that was valuable for its own sake, most likely gold or silver, becomes valuable for another purpose, namely, the facilitation of exchange. People move from barter to a monetary economy. This increases the division of labor. As more and more people use the money commodity in order to facilitate exchanges, the division of labor extends, and as a result, people’s productivity increases. They can specialize. This specialization produces increased output per person, and therefore increased income per person.

In this scenario, something that had independent value becomes the focus of traders, who find that their ability to buy and sell increases as a result of the use of this commodity. Money develops out of market exchanges. Money was not used for its own sake initially, but it becomes widely used as money as a result of innumerable transactions within the economy. (I discuss this in my chapter in Theory of Money and Fiduciary Media, published by the Mises Institute in 2012.)

Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of anunplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time. It spreads slowly, as new people discover it as a tool of production, because it increases the size of the market for all goods and services. No one says, “I think I’ll invent a new form of money.”

Note: any time you see a proposal of a new form of money, hold on to your old form of money.

The central benefit of money is its predictable purchasing power. A monetary commodity is not easy to produce. The cost of mining is high. Money is slowly adopted by a large number of participants. These participants use money as a means of exchange. Why? Because it was valuable the day before. They therefore expect it to be valuable the next day. Money has continuity of value. This is not intrinsic value. It is historic value. So, a person can buy money by the sale of goods or services, set this money aside, and re-enter the markets in a different location or in a different time, in the confidence that he will probably be able to buy a similar quantity of goods and services.

Money is not accumulated for its own sake. It is accumulated to buy future goods and services. It is useful in the facilitation of exchange precisely because its market value varies little over time. It is the predictability of money’s market exchange rate that makes it money.

BITCOINS ARE NOT MONEY

Now let us look at bitcoins. The market value of one bitcoin has gone from about $2 to $1,000 in a year. This is not money. This commodity is not being bought for its services as money. It is unpredictable to a fault.

Admittedly, those who got in early on this Ponzi scheme are doing very well. They will probably continue to do well for a time. As more people hear about this investment, which is justified in terms of its future potential as money, more people will buy it. Late-comers are not buying it because they understand its potential as future money, any more than the late investors in Charles Ponzi’s scheme thought they were buying into the arbitrage potential of foreign postage stamps. They are buying Bitcoins because we are in the midst of a Ponzi scheme mania. They will continue to buy because they think this time it’s different.

This digital so-called money will not be used to facilitate exchange. Nobody is going to be getting rid of an asset that has moved from $2 to $1,000 in one year in order to buy pizzas. People want to hang onto it, refusing to sell, in the hopes that it will go to $2,000. This is the classic mark of Ponzi scheme psychology.People do not buy the investment for the benefits that the investment provides as an investment, in other words, because it is a capital asset. They buy it only because it has gone up in price. They expect this to continue.

Here is the Austrian school’s theory of money. People buy money because it has not fallen in price. But it has also not gone up in price much, either. It is predictable. Why? Because it is held in reserve by a large number of people over a large geographical area. It has become money through tradition, through experience, and through endless numbers of exchanges on a voluntary basis. It has proven itself in the marketplace as a means of facilitating exchange, and thereby as a means of preserving value over time. This is not the characteristic feature of a Bitcoin. People are not buying it to serve as money; they are buying it because they are in the midst of a mania, and they are gambling that the number of buyers will continue upward forever.

Here is an economic fact: the number of fools is limited. They are a scarce economic resource. As the price of bitcoins rises, more fools will be lured into the market. But this is a finite market.

In other words, bitcoins cannot possibly fulfill their supposed purpose: to serve as an unregulated currency unit. Bitcoins are not an alternative currency. They are something you buy in the midst of a mania, and you will sell at some point in order to get back your money. You are thinking of buying Bitcoins, not because Bitcoins will serve as a means of exchange, as originally argued, but because you want to get back lots more money than you paid for them. In other words, Bitcoins are not money; dollars are money. There has been no challenge from Bitcoins to the reign of the dollar.

JUST SAY NO

When you see an offer of an investment which inherently cannot possibly exist on its own merit, and yet lots of people are coming into the market to buy the item, you know, without any question, that this is a Ponzi scheme. In other words, people are buying into the program, not because of an arbitrage opportunity, and not because of a capital breakthrough in terms of technology, but because somebody else bought it cheaper yesterday. You buy it today, not because you think it is going to offer a stable value, but because you think you’re going to make a bundle of money when more people come into the market. Again, this is the classic mark of a Ponzi scheme.

In order for Bitcoins to become an alternative currency, there will have to be millions of users of the currency. There will have to be tens of millions of users of the currency. They will have to develop in a market on their merit as money, not as an investment of dollars in order to get more dollars back. It would have to develop through exchange, not bought as an investment. In other words, the free market will have to adopt Bitcoins as a means of increasing the division of labor.

Bitcoins are not increasing the division of labor. They are bought on the basis that somebody can get into a game of musical chairs. Instead of running out of chairs, leaving one person the great winter, the promoters started with a given number of chairs, and then they hoped that lots would come and bid on the chairs. “If we issue it, they will come.” This took place. The promoters creators are now very rich, as measured in dollars.

The fact of the matter is this: Bitcoins will not increase the division of labor by serving as an alternative currency. Inherently, Bitcoins have made their mark, not on the basis of their stable value in exchange, that is, their value in increasing the division of labor in alternative markets that do not use the dollar. On the contrary, Bitcoins are being purchased for one reason only: to get in on the deal. Buy low; sell high. Buy with what? Dollars. Sell for what? Dollars.

The mania has destroyed Bitcoins’ use as money. Bitcoins are too volatile in price ever to serve as a currency.

Which is money: dollars or Bitcoins? The answer is obvious: dollars.

This is a Ponzi scheme.

WHAT GOES UP COMES DOWN

This will lead to the ruination of more people than any private Ponzi scheme in history. There will be the poor schnooks to get in at the end, paying perhaps thousands of dollars per Bitcoin. Then the market will unravel. It will unravel for the same reason that all Ponzi schemes have unraveled: not enough new buyers. When the new buyers do not show up in great numbers, the holders will start to dump them. What went up in price, as measured in dollars, the real money, will come down in price.

This mania is going to be the stuff of best-selling books. This is going to be this stuff of Ph.D. dissertations in economics and psychology. This is going to be the equivalent of Mackay’s book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

The interesting thing is the mania started among the most technologically sophisticated people on earth: computer techies. The techies who got in early are going to be fabulously wealthy . . . if they sell. But the poor schnooks who come in at the and are going to lose money. Collectively, this will be the greatest single scheme for lots of people losing money that we have ever seen. This Ponzi scheme is not illegal . . . yet. It will spread. It has gone viral.

The price will soon be too high for most people to buy one Bitcoin. What I think is going to happen next is that somebody is going to start a Bitcoin mutual fund. You will be able to buy fractional shares of a Bitcoins. Maybe you can get in for $250.

Anytime you buy an investment, you had better have an exit strategy. There is no exit strategy for Bitcoins.

You must get out at the top, or you lose your shirt.

CONCLUSION

Anytime that anybody tries to sell you an investment, you have to look at it on this basis: “What are the future benefits that this investment will give final consumers?” In other words, how does it serve the final consumer? If it does not serve the final consumer, then it is a Ponzi scheme.

Bitcoins cannot serve the consumer. There is nothing to consume. The only way that Bitcoins can work to the advantage of the consumer is that they provides the consumer with increased opportunities, based on Bitcoins’ function as money. But the fundamental characteristic of money is its relatively stable purchasing power.

Bitcoins will never achieve this. It is a mania going up. It will be a mania coming down. It will not increase the division of labor, because people will recognize it as having been a Ponzi scheme, and they will not again buy it. They will not use it in exchange. Companies will not sell goods and services based on Bitcoins. Bitcoins have to have stable purchasing power if they are to serve as money, and they will never, ever achieve stable purchasing power.

Whenever somebody tries to sell you an investment that is based on the economic analysis of a market — an analysis that cannot possibly be true — do not buy the investment. This is a simple rule. I adhere to this rule.

There has to be an economic justification for a capital investment, and there is no economic justification of buying Bitcoins as an alternative currency. That was how Bitcoins were initially sold, and it was impossible as an economic concept from the beginning. The Austrian theory of money shows why.

I do not invest in capital that has no economic justification other than the greater fool theory. There are too few fools to keep the scheme going.

Bitcoins are not illegal. They should not be made illegal. They should merely be avoided.
http://www.theburningplatform.com/2013/11/29/bitcoins-the-second-biggest-ponzi-scheme-in-history/

[EE_]

Peter explains why people will attack you when you say anything negative about their investment.
It's because they are emotionally attached to an investment that they believe will make them rich.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFcTJAQ7zc4

[madfranks]

EE, that was an exceptional article by Dr. North. I don't think he's correct in calling it a Ponzi scheme, because what bitcoin is now is not what it was a year ago. Right now it is a speculative commodity that people are trying to ride the wave up in order to get rich. People are "investing" in something that is not supposed to be an "investment". How do you invest in money? Here's where I think he's right:


In order for Bitcoins to become an alternative currency, there will have to be millions of users of the currency. There will have to be tens of millions of users of the currency. They will have to develop in a market on their merit as money, not as an investment of dollars in order to get more dollars back. It would have to develop through exchange, not bought as an investment. In other words, the free market will have to adopt Bitcoins as a means of increasing the division of labor.

...

Bitcoins have made their mark, not on the basis of their stable value in exchange, that is, their value in increasing the division of labor in alternative markets that do not use the dollar. On the contrary, Bitcoins are being purchased for one reason only: to get in on the deal. Buy low; sell high. Buy with what? Dollars. Sell for what? Dollars.

Regardless, I got in early enough to be on the wave right now, so my only question is when to get out??

[EE_]

EE, that was an exceptional article by Dr. North. I don't think he's correct in calling it a Ponzi scheme, because what bitcoin is now is not what it was a year ago. Right now it is a speculative commodity that people are trying to ride the wave up in order to get rich. People are "investing" in something that is not supposed to be an "investment". How do you invest in money? Here's where I think he's right:


Regardless, I got in early enough to be on the wave right now, so my only question is when to get out??

At least you know what you're playing with and not attacking me...thanks for that!

Is it a Ponzi scheme in a sense, if the original inventer kept the bulk of the coins for himself with the intent of hyping/running up the price, only to dump them at the appropriate time leaving most of the investors holding the bag?

[Ares]

At least you know what you're playing with and not attacking me...thanks for that!

Is it a Ponzi scheme in a sense, if the original inventer kept the bulk of the coins for himself with the intent of hyping/running up the price, only to dump them at the appropriate time leaving most of the investors holding the bag?

Yeah asking to explain your belief is attacking I guess. :rolleyes:

Look EE, your insight is equal to anyone else here on this forum. At least have the ability to back up your belief. Dr. North wrote a good article, but still fails in the definition of what is a Ponzi scheme. There IS NO PROMISE OF RETURNS. Plain and simple. The very definition of a Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from existing capital or new capital paid by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation. If you want to look into a Ponzi Scheme look at Social Security, The U.S. Dollar, Medicaid, Medicare, U.S. Treasuries etc.

You can keep calling it a Ponzi scheme until you're blue in the face, still doesn't change the fact that no where in the Bitcoin whitepaper, or any of the exchanges that you are promised a return on anything. I've said before I'm NOT emotionally invested into crypto currencies. They could all go to ZERO tomorrow for all we know, and what exactly would I be out again if they went to zero? You and Horn on the other hand are emotionally invested into Silver and Gold due to your sheer lack of ability to even see anything outside of Silver and Gold as a saving grace.

If you want to see the genesis block to show that it was not pre-mined that data is available here in the block chain, https://blockchain.info/block-index/1. Notice that those are the original coins, there are no others that were created before them. It's called the genesis block for a reason. Pre-Mined would indicate there are more coins than what the genesis block displays, so we can safely say Bitcoin was not pre-mined. If Satoshi is holding on to those coins, he's still far from a millionaire, and unable to sway the market in any direction by dumping a measly 50 coins.

But again it doesn't matter what I say to try and assuage your paranoia, in your eyes it's a fraud, ponzi scheme, unsecure, and just there to fleece people. Nothing Madfranks, Shami, Son Of Liberty say apparently will ever change what you BELIEVE. That's the beauty of the free market though. No one is forcing you to accept it.

[Horn]

Good posts EE_

What makes Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme is selling it as something it is not.

Mainly a good money, money needs to have intrinsic value in the real world to be called good money.

if someone wants to sell it as utility, or evil money, then it wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme.

[Sparky]

It's really not a Ponzi scheme, as Ares has explained. It may be speculative, fraudulent, risky, baseless, etc., but it's really not a Ponzi scheme.

[Horn]

It's really not a Ponzi scheme, as Ares has explained. It may be speculative, fraudulent, risky, baseless, etc., but it's really not a Ponzi scheme.

As Schiff said the losers will certainly view it differently, fact is you really can't know due to the anonymity of it.

Just recently a vulnerability was discovered that could allow an individual miner to burn the system down in a heartbeat, which could have possibly been implemented already, or not. With a dollar its easy to point it out as a Ponzi scheme.

Ponzi scheme really pales in comparison to what damage it could do the general economy if adopted as money. Along the lines but much faster than what the dollar is doing now. Scarcity is sold as a means to "good money" with it, but unless it has intrinsic value that scarcity is meaningless.

[Ares]

Just recently a vulnerability was discovered that could allow an individual miner to burn the system down in a heartbeat

:rolleyes:

Still have no clue what you are talking about do you horn? An Individual miner? Really? Show me an individual miner that can even get close to 25% of the network hash rate. :rolleyes:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

- Carl Sagan

[Horn]

:rolleyes:

Still have no clue what you are talking about do you horn? An Individual miner? Really? Show me an individual miner that can even get close to 25% of the network hash rate. :rolleyes:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

- Carl Sagan

The controllers of the privatized pool by a redirect of the blockchain.

You know what I mean, so don't claim I'm the foolish one while we argue semantics infront of the board.

Or claim it wouldn't be in their best interests, the entire thing could be a Ponzi scheme to destroy the E-coins notion to begin with by its enemies. Or actually promote them into existence and destroy existing currencies bringing us into other world type and expendable E-currencies.

[Ares]

The controllers of the privatized pool by a redirect of the blockchain.

You know what I mean, so don't claim I'm the foolish one while we argue semantics infront of the board.

Or claim it wouldn't be in their best interests, the entire thing could be a Ponzi scheme to destroy the E-coins notion to begin with by its enemies.

You said individual Miner. But you meant a Mining Pool? Redirect the blockchain? :rolleyes: good god, you have no idea what you are even talking about. STILL!!! I've already demonstrated to you why it wouldn't be in their best interest. Do you mine? (yeah I know a rhetorical question) If you did, you would be more in touch with the mining community. You'd realize that a pool that sapped their miners pay for 1-2 months while it built up it's own share chain wouldn't be in the miners best interests.

That article even said that the "selfish miner" technique would NOT INVALIDATE the coins already in circulation. So again with the hyperbole of "burn the system down in a heartbeat." It would be the pool cheating the other miners and pools out of their INCOME. Not destroying the system, do you even bother researching a topic before you discuss it? Did you even bother reading the white paper? Looking at the protocol? Or hell even comprehending the article you keep misquoting?

Again, why do I even bother? You haven't the faintest idea of what you are talking about with your bullshit claims. Even when Sparky agrees with me that BTC is not a ponzi scheme yet you still just pull the bullshit label as if it's some type of shield to protect your precious ego. :rolleyes:

Risky? You bet, fraudulent? Not able to be determined yet, but it could be a possibility. Controlled? As of current network hash rate and miner payment structure no. Just sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

[Ares]

mises.org on Bitcoins recent rise.


http://youtu.be/J9g9kh07Nio

Link to video: http://youtu.be/J9g9kh07Nio

[Horn]

The vulnerability is clearly sited and left uncontested, are you contesting the vulnerability as is proven, or only the possibility of its occurance?

To dismiss it as an impossibility would be another fraudulent misgiving. Along with other questionable activities over double selling was sited just a couple weeks ago with Ghash. Who knows if the Winkle brothers and Satoshi don't have a million wallets each and sell back and forth to each other through the exchanges just as the banks do with paper gold lease.

I realize that when everyone is profiting those can be things that are easily dismissed and forgotten, but if it lands into the general economy will cause damage just the same if not even faster and with greater impact than the dollar is doing currently.

[mick silver]

so tell us is china the goverment that making bitcoins the money that we all will be using any better then the buck we have now , you keep being china into this
Because dipshit China no longer buys treasuries and has plans to remove the dollar from its crumbling pedestal. What good is a controlled debt based currency? BTC China eclipses Japans MtGox for volume, and Coinbase (u.s. exchange) doesn't even make it in the top 5. So where is this FRN money velocity that you speak of? BTCChina DOES NOT ACCEPT or USE U.S. Dollars. If you knew a fucking thing about crypto currencies you wouldn't look like such a fool trying to justify your paranoia. You and Horn are perfect for each other. Bashing something you have no idea about, and looking completely stupid doing it because your baseless accusations aren't matching up to reality. Just try getting U.S. dollars out of MtGox, your going to wait about a month. So much for that money velocity. The U.S. is being left behind because of their oppressive surveillance apparatus, debt based monetary system that only benefits those at the top and screws everyone else.

Tell me, how the fed is going to control a decentralized p2p based medium of exchange for their benefit? If it's mined in China, or Russia, how is the U.S. going to tax it to support their military? Government? police state? How?

You can come up with all the baseless bullshit excuses in the world, and you and horn have certainly tried. But to anyone here who knows anything about crypto currencies, your bullshit theories just don't pan out. Because you can't explain how, and continue to fail to do so. Why not stick to general topics? You're in crypto currencies where crypto's will be discussed. I know, I know, taboo subject but we have our own subsection here on gsus. If you don't want to learn about it, and continue to just throw shit and hope it sticks feel free not to post under this subsection.

[Ares]

so tell us is china the goverment that making bitcoins the money that we all will be using any better then the buck we have now , you keep being china into this

Nope not at all. A bitcoin mined in China would be of the same quality and quantity if it were mined in the United States. The reason I keep bringing China into the discussion is because they're extremely open about adopting this crypto currency. I haven't quite figured out why, considering it is the exact opposite of their monetary system. They've still shown a desire to implement said currency into their economy. Which brings up the United States regulatory concerns, how can the U.S. Government regulate what China does with their economy?

[Ares]

The vulnerability is clearly sited and left uncontested, are you contesting the vulnerability as is proven, or only the possibility of its occurance?

So is the 51% attack, but you pick whatever one suits your agenda best. Okay?


To dismiss it as an impossibility would be another fraudulent misgiving. Along with other questionable activities over double selling was sited just a couple weeks ago with Ghash. Who knows if the Winkle brothers and Satoshi don't have a million wallets each and sell back and forth to each other through the exchanges just as the banks do with paper gold lease.

Even the author said it would be unlikely given how open the pools and the mining community are. The Ghash double selling was with their flawed cex.io selling Gigahash engine (which they've rewritten). But again to you that's just "semantics".


I realize that when everyone is profiting those can be things that are easily dismissed and forgotten, but if it lands into the general economy will cause damage just the same if not even faster and with greater impact than the dollar is doing currently.

How am I profiting again? You keep claiming we're all profiting, but for me personally I haven't profited a single penny as I haven't cashed out. So where is all this profit you speak of?

[mick silver]

if we put this much time into silver and gold then maybe we could be drivers in controlling the price of it more

[Horn]

Just sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

I hope you realize you're acting like JoeKing with his regard to space junk.

"I want more and don't care how I get it or the implications for the future"

is my interpratation

[Ares]

if we put this much time into silver and gold then maybe we could be drivers in controlling the price of it more

I wish that were true Mick... :( But with such large quantities locked up by the owners of our current monetary system (300+ years now) that will never happen. It will take a completely different approach to remove them.

Even if we had a gold / silver standard that still leaves them in control of said system because they have the vast majority of the reserves. They manipulate the gold and silver price with their paper derivatives. Almost like clock work just before the BLS labor stats get released Gold and Silver get hammered. Yet they aren't out a single ounce as they game their paper derivatives. Even if the comex can't settle a contract what does the holder get? They get a cash settlement which they can print from nothing.

So as much I truly wish we could use gold and silver as a medium of exchange its just not going to happen. :(

[Horn]

if we put this much time into silver and gold then maybe we could be drivers in controlling the price of it more

Is one thing to talk about it, and another to actually do something.

Look at all the exposure of the comex, but the world keeps ticking along on it. Investing in any asset is only going to get any of us so far, why petitions haven't been signed and repetitive legal actions taken? we can only see whoever has tried gets eliminated...

[Ares]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/n/a/gcpjndkf.jpeg

is my interpratation

Yes I know Horn. Go sit in a corner and cry somewhere then.

[Horn]

How am I profiting again? You keep claiming we're all profiting, but for me personally I haven't profited a single penny as I haven't cashed out. So where is all this profit you speak of?

That's not my problem, I realize the sell and utility you think these things are.

I'm just here to let you know that if they reach the general economy (which is clearly your aim) they will be the scourge of mankind due to their lack of intrinsic value.

[Ares]

That's not my problem, I realize the sell and utility you think these things are.

You don't realize jack shit.


I'm just here to let you know that if they reach the general economy (which is clearly your aim) they will be the scourge of mankind due to their lack of intrinsic value.

You're just here to throw shit at a wall like zoo monkey hoping something sticks.

Give it up Horn. The "scourge of mankind"? Even gold doesn't have "intrinsic" value. What good is a chest full of gold if you're stranded on a deserted island Horn? How good is that "intrinsic" value? Can you eat it? It would have the same value as a Bitcoin then. COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. The value of ANYTHING is what some else will give you for it. ALWAYS HAS BEEN ALWAYS WILL BE. The only thing you're used to is the state determining the value of gold and silver and approving the weight and measure of said unit of exchange.

If I were stranded on an island FOOD would have intrinsic value due to life sustaining function. Gold wouldn't mean shit in that scenario.

Your failed ideology is the scourge of mankind Horn. Gold and Silver WILL NEVER be what we want it to be due to the majority of it being locked up and controlled.

But keep using and praying that the medium of exchange that has been locked up, controlled and manipulated for 300+ years is going to some how set you free. :rolleyes:

[Horn]

So as much I truly wish we could use gold and silver as a medium of exchange its just not going to happen. :(

Silver was a medium of exchange less than 40 years ago, don't under estimate it.

In fact a centralized E-coin could come along that was backed by it, as Schiff mentioned.

[Horn]

Even gold doesn't have "intrinsic" value. What good is a chest full of gold if you're stranded on a deserted island Horn? How good is that "intrinsic" value? Can you eat it?

I could make a shiny fishing lure and catch enough fish to feed myself.

Maybe a spearhead to cannibalize other unequipped idiots on the island...such as yourself :)

Intrinsic value is everything, with regards to good money.

[Ares]

Silver was a medium of exchange less than 40 years ago, don't under estimate it.

In fact a centralized E-coin could come along that was backed by it, as Schiff mentioned.

No one is stopping you from starting that type of currency. Hell I'd even mine it knowing it was backed by a physical commodity.

[Ares]

Intrinsic value is everything, with regards to good money.

And what is "good money" if no one will exchange anything for it?

Intrinsic value is whatever someone will give you for the item that has said intrinsic value. It's whatever someone ELSE thinks it's worth NOT YOU!

[mick silver]

a banker dream ................... mickcoin ... then we will not have to build banks to rob people . just a room in someone basement

[Ares]

a banker dream ................... mickcoin ... then we will not have to build banks to rob people . just a room in someone basement

I'll pose the same question I've asked of Horn, EE, and now you. Yet I have yet to get an answer.

How do you control a Peer to peer network of volunteer's all over the world?

How do bankers benefit from a decentralized medium of exchange that bypasses all of their regulations, and controls?

[mick silver]

because the bankers own bitcoins ,,, test run test run test run .

[mick silver]

ares i really hope you make some silver are gold out of what you done with your bitcoins , if you do that a plus , but again i would want it in my hands . one has to ask why would the bankers not love something like bitcoins . i did trade stocks made money lose money . had a big 401 got out of that why the getting was good . the bank an gov have there hand in every thing . we all have seen this , this game is the same as the last game just newer . all it takes is one big player in bitcoin to cashout and it over

[Ares]

because the bankers own bitcoins ,,, test run test run test run .

How do bankers own Bitcoins? I'm really wanting to know where you see the evidence of it. I'd dump it immediately if I saw that it was under some kind of control. So please by all means show me where the evidence is that the bankers control it so that I can get out of it.

Bankers are not open, they are secretive and have all their transactions hidden. So how can a protocol that has everything open from the protocol source code to its transaction log be banker owned?

[mick silver]

ares i dont know ... but the game is the same . just newer way . i wish you well i hope you run off with a pocket full of silver are gold coins from this , but again just one big player could cash out if that was to happen in a few seconds what would happen . i dont know the answe to if banker own bitcoin but if i was betting man i would they have a hand in it just like the gov does

[Ares]

ares i really hope you make some silver are gold out of what you done with your bitcoins , if you do that a plus , but again i would want it in my hands . one has to ask why would the bankers not love something like bitcoins . i did trade stocks made money lose money . had a big 401 got out of that why the getting was good . the bank an gov have there hand in every thing

I'm hoping to get some silver and gold out of it too. Honestly the whole point I got into it. But I don't really have enough to part with to get any significant quantities of either Silver or Gold. I cashed out my 401K to move to the location for my new job.

I'm sure the bankers and governments are scratching their heads wondering how they are going to regulate and tax Bitcoins. If you watched the Senate hearing a couple weeks ago, you'll see that they advise registering your bitcoin business with FinCEN. But if no one does, what's there to regulate? It even came up by a Russian who said how is the U.S. going to police the global bitcoin network?

Right now we see a power struggle in the fiat game against the east and the west. I think that over all is driving the price of Bitcoin as a lot of people want to get out of either currency.

[Ares]

ares i dont know ... but the game is the same . just newer way . i wish you well i hope you run off with a pocket full of siler are gold coins from this , but again just one big player could cash out if that was to happen in a few seconds what would happen . i dont know the answe to if banker own bitcoin but if i was betting man i would they have a hand in it just like the gov does

It's also why I watch the the bitcoin blogs and a member of a number of different pools so that I can see if there is any manipulation going on. Even for an investment, wouldn't it be nice to have an ear to the ground of the company you own stocks in? In this case you do, and if something is fishy head for the exit.

[mick silver]

how do you know the banker are not in bitcoins , because someone on a computer said they were not ? you sound like a real smart person , but i dont know an i bet you dont know is whois really behind bitcoin are mickcoins

[Ares]

how do you know the banker are not in bitcoins , because someone on a computer said they were not ? you sound like a real smart person , but i dont know an i bet you dont know is whois really behind bitcoin are mickcoins

Because you can watch the transaction log in real time. www.blockchain.info. Last week there was a 150 million (FRN Valued) transaction. The note was "A Shitload Of Money" they transferred from one address to another. Well that much Bitcoins sparked a speculation of who it was. Someone on Bitcointalk I believe thinks it was Bitstamp moving their holdings to a new address.

In the old (current) financial system, we have no idea how much money changes hands. But with a public ledger you can see it in real time. Granted addresses are not linked to any identity, if done in the public and not behind a tumbling service you can get a rough idea who the address belongs too. Especially if its a business type entity.

Imagine the stock price of investment companies who worked strictly in bitcoins. You'd have a real idea of their valuation by unfettered access to their daily revenue stream not subject to manipulation. It would be an honest investment without the accounting fudging the numbers Enron / JPM style.

[Horn]

And what is "good money" if no one will exchange anything for it?

Intrinsic value is whatever someone will give you for the item that has said intrinsic value. It's whatever someone ELSE thinks it's worth NOT YOU!

Intrinsic value - value unto itself, such as fishing lures and spearheads.

All you Bitcoin miners deserve to be deserted on an island without wi-fi somewhere.

Just sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

[Ares]

Intrinsic value - value unto itself, such as fishing lures and spearheads.

All you Bitcoin miners deserve to be deserted on an island without wi-fi somewhere.

Just sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

Why? So it can have the same value is your gold and silver?

Keep riding that manipulated wave down. Okay? :)

Even the definition of YOUR intrinsic value doesn't hold in the REAL WORLD.


Intrinsic Value: The actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. This value may or may not be the same as the current market value. Value investors use a variety of analytical techniques in order to estimate the intrinsic value of securities in hopes of finding investments where the true value of the investment exceeds its current market value.

So much for your fucking delusion.

[Horn]

Why? So it can have the same value is your gold and silver?

Keep riding that manipulated wave down. Okay? :)

Mine Your Cellphone for Gold and Silver Before Throwing It AwayRetired consumer electronics appliances could bring you a fortune, even before recycling, if you decided to mine them for precious metals. The new trend is as scientific as possible, and even got a name: "Urban mining". The idea behind it is the fact that scrap parts hold significant amounts of gold, silver, copper, or precious gems such as iridium.




We have previously reported about a man who ended up poisoned to death with mercury in an attempt at mining his PC hardware (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Man-Gets-Killed-In-an-Attempt-at-Squeezing-Gold-From-Computer-Hardware-82613.shtml), and one aspect should be clear before proceeding: such things are to be done in industrial, well-controlled environments and only by qualified personnel.

Urban mining can bring significant profits, as precious metals are getting more and more expensive. Even the common rough materials, such as copper, are well priced, not to mention the re-usable plastics. Gold is used on a large scale in manufacturing computer hardware and mobile phones, as it has higher conductive properties than copper or silver.

"It can be precious or minor metals, we want to recycle whatever we can", said Tadahiko Sekigawa, president of Eco-System Recycling Co, owned by Dowa Holdings.

According to Sekigawa, a ton of ore extracted from a conventional mine produces about 5 grams of gold, while a ton of scrap mobile phones would account for about 150 grams. The same amount of waste cell phones could also bring 100 kilograms of copper and about 3 kilograms of silver, that can be melted, then sold as ingots to jewelers.

Japan is one of the countries that take recycling seriously. Since the country has extremely limited natural resources, and a blooming electronics industry, most of the rough materials used in new products are extracted from the previous generations of consumer electronics devices.

"To some it's just a mountain of garbage, but for others it's a gold mine", said Nozomu Yamanaka, manager of the Eco-Systems recycling plant, one of the biggest facilities of its kind in Japan.

[madfranks]

how do you know the banker are not in bitcoins , because someone on a computer said they were not ? you sound like a real smart person , but i dont know an i bet you dont know is whois really behind bitcoin are mickcoins

Mick, you can see the sell orders on btc-e, just wait for one person to sell 100 or so bitcoins, and you can see for yourself the thousands of people that buy fractions of that sell order. The bankers aren't controlling this, when tens of thousands, millions of people are buying them and you can see for yourself all the transactions.

[Horn]

Mick, you can see the sell orders on btc-e, just wait for one person to sell 100 or so bitcoins, and you can see for yourself the thousands of people that buy fractions of that sell order. The bankers aren't controlling this, when tens of thousands, millions of people are buying them and you can see for yourself all the transactions.

Oh man, I need a wave file that sounds like an evil laugh.

What gullible man you are, as if in the land of computers you can't have multiple eyes purchasing and selling all under the same operator.

Talk to Ares, he should learn you in computers.

[mick silver]

from now on i am not growing food raising beef , guy;s in the next week i will start a site were you can mine all the food for your family , the price is being work out as i post this mickcoin food trader ... i wonder just how many people would buy into my made up site ... dont be left out in the cold without your only really true mickcoin money to buy your food with

[madfranks]

You guys are just having fun, I get it, but you're not even trying to understand what it is you're debating against...

[Horn]

You guys are just having fun, I get it, but you're not even trying to understand what it is you're debating against...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s-PiIbzbhw

[drafter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs6F91dFYCs&feature=player_detailpage#t=257



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs6F91dFYCs


This might be educational for some of the people here.

[drafter]

Guess I don't know how to embed. Oh well.

[Horn]

Make a silver ring for 25 cents


http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FLQ/KH55/FRXW6RZD/FLQKH55FRXW6RZD.LARGE.gif

Do you have a quarter from 1964 or before? If you do, it is made of silver. You can turn that coin into a nice silver band using a spoon, a drill, and a metal file.

A quarter will yield a small ring, size ~7 or less. You can get a larger size but the ring will be very skinny. If you want a larger size ring, a Kennedy half dollar will work well. Again, anything 1964 and earlier will be silver.

Materials needed:
-Silver quarter
-spoon
-drill
-metal file

Optional but recommended
-Vice grips
-dremel

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-silver-ring-for-25-cents/

[Cebu_4_2]

Now this is how to make money, take a quarter and make a ring, sell it for a couple hundred...

I would be into the bitcoin deal but I wont chase a freight train uphill. I lost all incentive when I couldn't mine, and wallet didn't work.

Most systems can only mine with intel... an israel company, I stopped out right there and tried a way around it.

Did not have much luck. Anyways guys I am glad someone is cleaning up in this before the banksters cash out.


Make a silver ring for 25 cents


http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FLQ/KH55/FRXW6RZD/FLQKH55FRXW6RZD.LARGE.gif

Do you have a quarter from 1964 or before? If you do, it is made of silver. You can turn that coin into a nice silver band using a spoon, a drill, and a metal file.

A quarter will yield a small ring, size ~7 or less. You can get a larger size but the ring will be very skinny. If you want a larger size ring, a Kennedy half dollar will work well. Again, anything 1964 and earlier will be silver.

Materials needed:
-Silver quarter
-spoon
-drill
-metal file

Optional but recommended
-Vice grips
-dremel

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-silver-ring-for-25-cents/

[Cebu_4_2]

What is a bitcoin worth? Here is a trade:


12,881.50876826 BTC

[mick silver]

You guys are just having fun, I get it, but you're not even trying to understand what it is you're debating against...
in away we are mad , but also hoping people see there is a crash thats coming

[Shami-Amourae]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlSU9sBnJUY

[EE_]

Crypto's growing like weeds. Looks like the deth knell for gold and silver. Maybe time to sell metals?
People want rising prices, not lumps of metal that go nowhere.

1 Bitcoin $ 12,334,962,332
12,062,825 BTC $ 1022.561.00 BTC 12,062,825 BTC -8.73 %

2 Litecoin $ 858,597,395
839,655 BTC $ 36.510.0357 BTC 23,519,742 LTC -2.62 %

3 Peercoin $ 143,342,445
140,180 BTC $ 6.870.00672 BTC 20,860,117 PPC -19.79 %

4 Namecoin $ 70,819,530
69,257 BTC $ 9.520.00931 BTC 7,439,000 NMC -5.28 %

5 QuarkCoin $ 55,176,499
53,959 BTC $ 0.220.0002197 BTC 245,600,449 QRK +290.22 %

6 Megacoin $ 33,163,312
32,432 BTC $ 1.570.001538 BTC 21,087,975 MEC -29.76 %

7 Feathercoin $ 26,820,412
26,229 BTC $ 1.080.00106 BTC 24,744,050 FTC -14.81 %

8 ProtoShares $ 26,472,936
25,889 BTC $ 26.690.02611 BTC 991,688 PTS +31.03 %

9 WorldCoin $ 20,513,700
20,061 BTC $ 0.620.0006048 BTC 33,172,038 WDC +8.30 %

10 Primecoin $ 20,399,217
19,949 BTC $ 6.140.006 BTC 3,324,861 XPM -15.43 %

11 Freicoin $ 12,831,103
12,548 BTC $ 0.380.000371 BTC 33,822,155 FRC +25.65 %

12 Novacoin $ 11,687,516
11,430 BTC $ 23.210.0227 BTC 503,509 NVC -8.13 %

13 Zetacoin $ 7,716,863
7,547 BTC $ 0.0494.793e-05 BTC 157,466,338 ZET +68.44 %

14 BBQCoin $ 7,330,066
7,168 BTC $ 0.260.0002575 BTC 27,839,326 BQC +93.27 %

15 Infinitecoin $ 6,282,000
6,143 BTC $ 7.1e-056.971e-08 BTC 88,125,211,149 IFC +2.06 %

16 Terracoin $ 5,282,634
5,166 BTC $ 1.180.00115 BTC 4,492,250 TRC -13.10 %

17 CryptogenicBullion $ 5,150,284
5,037 BTC $ 5.660.005533 BTC 910,376 CGB +6.35 %

18 Anoncoin $ 3,909,151
3,823 BTC $ 7.050.006891 BTC 554,793 ANC -0.84 %

19 Devcoin $ 3,631,041
3,551 BTC $ 0.000636.124e-07 BTC 5,798,070,050 DVC +3.59 %

20 GoldCoin $ 3,035,824
2,969 BTC $ 0.110.0001035 BTC 28,687,280 GLD +57.83 %

21 Yacoin $ 2,969,521
2,904 BTC $ 0.260.0002515 BTC 11,547,664 YAC +5.51 %

22 Ixcoin $ 2,893,145
2,829 BTC $ 0.170.0001681 BTC 16,830,866 IXC +12.06 %

23 Digitalcoin $ 2,594,937
2,538 BTC $ 0.240.0002299 BTC 11,037,741 DGC -9.12 %

24 Tickets $ 2,562,061
2,506 BTC $ 4.2e-054.089e-08 BTC 61,282,150,168 TIX -2.65 %

25 Copperlark $ 2,104,251
2,058 BTC $ 0.420.0004144 BTC 4,965,199 CLR +26.75 %

26 Fastcoin $ 1,624,389
1,589 BTC $ 0.0393.795e-05 BTC 41,859,049 FST +74.31 %

27 StableCoin $ 1,562,900
1,528 BTC $ 0.190.0001882 BTC 8,119,280 SBC +0.00 %

28 TagCoin $ 1,161,144
1,136 BTC $ 3.060.002996 BTC 379,020 TAG +19.11 %

29 BitBar $ 1,071,415
1,048 BTC $ 131.910.13 BTC 8,122 BTB +35.69 %

30 Mincoin $ 895,822
876 BTC $ 0.630.0006179 BTC 1,417,800 MNC +8.20 %

31 Luckycoin $ 719,695
704 BTC $ 0.0848.2e-05 BTC 8,583,136 LKY +13.47 %

32 Franko $ 638,861
625 BTC $ 8.920.00872 BTC 71,647 FRK +16.83 %

33 FlorinCoin $ 616,078
602 BTC $ 0.021.996e-05 BTC 30,178,900 FLO -24.79 %

34 I0Coin $ 612,003
599 BTC $ 0.0312.996e-05 BTC 19,976,985 I0C -23.00 %

35 Phoenixcoin $ 523,293
512 BTC $ 0.0827.988e-05 BTC 6,406,300 PXC +82.70 %

36 Bytecoin $ 332,337
325 BTC $ 0.200.0002 BTC 1,624,941 BTE -11.48 %

37 Argentum $ 319,795
313 BTC $ 0.820.0008 BTC 390,924 ARG +0.00 %

38 Elacoin $ 266,328
260 BTC $ 10.160.00994 BTC 26,202 ELC +0.00 %

39 CraftCoin $ 211,277
207 BTC $ 1.020.0009986 BTC 206,897 CRC +9.89 %

40 Junkcoin $ 179,158
175 BTC $ 0.0212.069e-05 BTC 8,467,750 JKC +107.46 %

41 Noirbits $ 61,352
60 BTC $ 0.100.0001 BTC 599,980 NRB +0.00 %

42 Colossuscoin $ 25,514
25 BTC $ 8.2e-067.985e-09 BTC 3,124,629,869 COL +0.00 %

[Horn]

27 StableCoin $ 1,562,900
1,528 BTC $ 0.190.0001882 BTC 8,119,280 SBC +0.00 %

Looks Stable, must be stable...

[EE_]

Looks Stable, must be stable...

Soon as I see BubbleCoin, BeenieCoin and TulipCoin I'm buying!
I'd bet on PetRockCoin too!

[Shami-Amourae]

Actually right now is probably the best time to buy Gold/Silver. There's a lot of negative sentiment which means it's probably going to skyrocket.

Like SilverFuturist said, the attitude of Bitcoiners now is the same as Silver bugs had right before the smack down @$50.

I wouldn't be shocked if we hit a top in the Bitcoin market already.

[EE_]

Actually right now is probably the best time to buy Gold/Silver. There's a lot of negative sentiment which means it's probably going to skyrocket.

That's not a good reason.
It's clear the money has moved on to something much more valuable...rising prices.

[EE_]

Like SilverFuturist said, the attitude of Bitcoiners now is the same as Silver bugs had right before the smack down @$50.

I wouldn't be shocked if we hit a top in the Bitcoin market already.

SilverFuturist don't know shit.
Bitcoiners are only getting started, seems soon for a smackdown.

[Shami-Amourae]

SilverFuturist don't know shit.
Bitcoiners are only getting started, seems soon for a smackdown.

Temporary.
;)

[Horn]

Soon as I see BubbleCoin, BeenieCoin and TulipCoin I'm buying!
I'd bet on PetRockCoin too!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6re2X6vI8P8

[Shami-Amourae]

I just noticed, but Quarks are skyrocketing now while everything is crashing. That's the SCAMcoin that the establishment shills are all pushing for.

[Horn]

I just noticed, but Quarks are skyrocketing now while everything is crashing. That's the SCAMcoin that the establishment shills are all pushing for.

It could get to a point where they realize they're throwing good money after bad.

When the field is full of bad candidates, the worst of them should finish first, or win the race.

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkpZ73GMG4


#9 Quark coin

Another altcoin in its infancy, launched in 2013, Quark coin takes the security elements of the cryptocurrency very seriously employing nine separate rounds of encryption using six different algorithms.

If those nine bitcoin alternatives weren’t enough for you, there are over 60 different altcoin currencies currently being traded at various exchanges like Cryptsy (https://www.cryptsy.com/), including AndroidsTokens, AlphaCoin, AmericanCoin, AnonCoin, Argentum, AsicCoin, BBQCoin, BitCar, ByteCoin, BitGem, BottleCaps, CryptoBuck, CryptogenicBullion, CopperLark, Cosmoscoin, CHNCoin, ColossusCoin, CopperBars, CraftCoin, CasinoCoin ...

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/28/bitcoin-alternatives-future-currency-investments

Looks like #9 Quark is the place to put your bets on.

[Son-of-Liberty]

You guys do realize that over a year ago after reaching $30 Bitcoin crashed back to $2, now that is a smack down. Now look where the price is?

Even a gut wrenching crash doesn't mean the end for cryptocurrency. The idea of money free from banker and government control and taxation isn't going to go away now that people have had a taste for it.

Is it a mania? maybe, but why do you guys give two shits? You aren't invested.

[Horn]

This Quark looks to be the worst of the worst, its already 98% mined within 6 months, talk about efficiency and getting what you want right now... Either that or the Ripple coin which will eat most all the other coins.

If I'm going to do this thing, I'm going to do it right by picking the worst of the worst to get into, so they all have 0 or little chance at ever permanently succeeding my 3000 yr old Silver... while still reaping the most disgusting of dirtiest E-currency benefits.

I wanna a bloodsucking evil E-leech coin!

http://www.quarkcoin.com/images/quark-logo-rotate.gif

http://www.quarkcoin.com/

[Neuro]

Even a oneway ticket with scalped and delayed return to and from Mt. Gox is better than a noway ticket.

http://moneyweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/13-11-26-DR-1.gif

Just in the nick of time with that S&P peaking out also. How fortunate, and what timing!
I think there are probably many billionaires and multimillionaires that are cashing out now or soon with the fed support, from the stock market those will go on inflation hedge physical gold and luxury consumption (last days of Rome scenario).

[mick silver]

Soon as I see BubbleCoin, BeenieCoin and TulipCoin I'm buying!
I'd bet on PetRockCoin too! what about mickcoins there about to hit the market , you can buy food from me with your mickcoins are you can just hold them and hope they buy more food someday

[mick silver]

horn when you get your evil E-leech coin i will trade you one of my mickcoins for one of yours

[Horn]

horn when you get your evil E-leech coin i will trade you one of my mickcoins for one of yours

Will do mick,

I have to go though that Dark Cloud thingy first,

hopefully I don't come out in an evil black Spiderman suit on the otherside.

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