New York City confiscating rifles and shotguns

[Ares]

The New York City Police Department (NYPD) is sending out letters telling gun owners to turn over their rifles and shotguns — or else face the consequences.

New York City’s ban on rifles and shotguns that hold more than five rounds is now being enforced, according to a letter the NYPD is sending out to targeted city gun owners.

“It appears you are in possession of a rifle and/or Shotgun (listed below) that has an ammunition feeding device capable of holding more than five (5) rounds of ammunition. Rifles and shotguns capable of holding more than five (5) rounds of ammunition are unlawful to possess in New York City, as per NYC Administrative Code 10-306 (b).”

“You have the following options,” the letter explains.

“1. Immediately surrender your Rifle and/or Shotgun to your local police precinct, and notify this office of the invoice number. The firearm may be sold or permanently removed from the City of New York thereafter.

2. Permanently remove your Rifle and/or Shotgun from New York City and provide the following…Disposition Report/Registration Certificate…Notarized statement of permanent removal…Utility bill or other proof of residency regarding the address where the firearm will be stored outside the City of New York.

3. You may call to discuss the matter if you believe your firearm is in compliance…”

Departing New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg is a major gun-control activist, with his coalition recently sponsoring an ad that depicts an Adam Lanza-type character entering a school full of children.

New York state, meanwhile, passed the NY SAFE Act in 2013 in response to the Sandy Hook shooting. The law, which bans “high-capacity magazines” and puts in place other stringent controls, was signed by governor and 2016 presidential hopeful Andrew Cuomo.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/06/new-york-city-confiscating-rifles-and-shotguns/

[Ares]

http://truthaboutguns.zippykid.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Screen-Shot-2013-11-27-at-9.31.12-AM.png

Actual Letter

[Dogman]

What the state does not know about they can not act on.

It is great not to live in city's/states that require registration.

[Libertytree]

The key word in this is NY CITY, the folks in upstate NY ain't the same breed as the pussies in the Big Snapple.

[palani]

Ok ... that is an OFFER. If you don't respond within 72 hours it gains the authority of a contract.

Go ahead and accept it conditionally ... might be a good chance to think up some REALLY challenging conditions ... like ... IF I TURN IN MY RIFLE AND GET SUBSEQUENTLY MURDERED DO YOU AGREE TO SUPPORT MY WIFE AND FIVE CHILDREN FOR THE NEXT 300 YEARS?

[Dogman]

The key word in this is NY CITY, the folks in upstate NY ain't the same breed as the pussies in the Big Snapple.Agree

Years ago had to go to Buffalo to do a quick oil field job on a 3 phase horizontal separator. Asked the young couple that ran the lease while drinking good Canadian beer on the Canada side of Niagara falls, how they felt about NY city.

They said that most people in new York state wouldn't mind if ny city slid into the Atlantic and sank.

[midnight rambler]

No one needs a long arm in the city, the donut munchers will keep ya safe.

[Libertytree]

Ok ... that is an OFFER. If you don't respond within 72 hours it gains the authority of a contract.

Go ahead and accept it conditionally ... might be a good chance to think up some REALLY challenging conditions ... like ... IF I TURN IN MY RIFLE AND GET SUBSEQUENTLY MURDERED DO YOU AGREE TO SUPPORT MY WIFE AND FIVE CHILDREN FOR THE NEXT 300 YEARS?

YOU think YOU can negotiate with these people!? LMMFAO!!

[mick silver]

they pick there master , if they dont like them hires some news ones

[palani]

YOU think YOU can negotiate with these people!? LMMFAO!!

You use the same tricks they use ... and it isn't negotiation .. it is commerce.

Didn't you know that any firearm manufactured before 1899 was deemed never entered into commerce. Every letter such as the one in the OP is nothing more than an offer. You obviously would rather engage in dishonor when dealing with contract offers so in the end YOU WILL LOSE AND YOU WON'T EVEN KNOW WHY.

Learn the rules of commerce or be ruled by them.

[Libertytree]

You use the same tricks they use ... and it isn't negotiation .. it is commerce.

Didn't you know that any firearm manufactured before 1899 was deemed never entered into commerce. Every letter such as the one in the OP is nothing more than an offer. You obviously would rather engage in dishonor when dealing with contract offers so in the end YOU WILL LOSE AND YOU WON'T EVEN KNOW WHY.

Learn the rules of commerce or be ruled by them.

You seem to be under the illusion that said guns are pre 1899. In that case I doubt that they are even registered and subsequently would not have generated a notice of confiscation.

If you are under the radar the last thing you would want to do is volunteer any info.

Are you sure you're not just yankin' my chain? You're smarter than this...ain't ya?

[gunDriller]

The key word in this is NY CITY, the folks in upstate NY ain't the same breed as the pussies in the Big Snapple.

is that a Seinfeld/ Whinefeld reference ?

[Hitch]

I think this is a big deal. Sets a precedent where city ordinances can over ride the constitution. NYC is just the start. They will send letters in all major cities telling folks to turn in their guns. It will only get worse from here. Just send a letter saying we know what you have, and you can't have it anymore. They are even going after 22lr.

[palani]

You seem to be under the illusion that said guns are pre 1899. In that case I doubt that they are even registered and subsequently would not have generated a notice of confiscation.

If you are under the radar the last thing you would want to do is volunteer any info.

Are you sure you're not just yankin' my chain? You're smarter than this...ain't ya?

Kindly go back and read my previous post again since you got it bass ackward. Firearms post 1899 are deemed engaged in commerce. The whole topic of seizing guns is commercial.

[Libertytree]

Kindly go back and read my previous post again since you got it bass ackward. Firearms post 1899 are deemed engaged in commerce. The whole topic of seizing guns is commercial.

I've been of the impression that you advocate remaining outside of commerce, thus the notation of pre 1899 guns. FWIW, your post on the matter was poorly worded prompting the confusion.

My initial response still stands though, to them this is non-negotiable, that means you're SOL and better start doing some other kind of thinkin'.

[Libertytree]

is that a Seinfeld/ Whinefeld reference ?

Naw, that's from experience.

[palani]

I've been of the impression that you advocate remaining outside of commerce, thus the notation of pre 1899 guns. FWIW, your post on the matter was poorly worded prompting the confusion.
I admit that for proper communication one party must be capable of writing and the other of reading.


My initial response still stands though, to them this is non-negotiable, that means you're SOL and better start doing some other kind of thinkin'. You are guaranteed due process. Due process consists of notice and opportunity to inquire. Once afforded the OPPORTUNITY if you don't avail yourself of it then and only then are you SOL. But I suppose you have to recognize that you have a choice in the matter but why wait for someone to take what you have when you can just shoot yourself in the head and be done with the matter?

[Norweger]

Ban on a bolt action 22lr seems a bit overkill.

This is the future for the west I'm afraid. In a modern uprising against TPTB a semi-auto would be very effective. They know this of course and act against it. Regular hunting rifles can fuck up their plans too so those are next i guess.

[Norweger]

I think this is a big deal. Sets a precedent where city ordinances can over ride the constitution. NYC is just the start. They will send letters in all major cities telling folks to turn in their guns. It will only get worse from here. Just send a letter saying we know what you have, and you can't have it anymore. They are even going after 22lr.

The 22lr is no joke.

[Norweger]

Only fools poopoo the 22.

[Hitch]

Only fools poopoo the 22.

I just find it odd, and ignorant, of them to grab 22's. My 45-70 holds only four rounds and would not be grabbed by them, yet that bullet is a tank. They go by number of rounds.

I've seen firsthand that rifles tear up folks a lot more than pistols. Talked to folks who had multiple 45 acp bullets in them and they could hold a decent conversation. High powered rifles, regardless of how many rounds they hold, stop folks where they stand. No doubt the 22lr could be lethal, but shot placement is the key factor, and most turds spray and pray.

Bottom line, I'd rather have a high mag 22lr shooting at me than any other round. Probably including pistols too.

[madfranks]

Ok ... that is an OFFER. If you don't respond within 72 hours it gains the authority of a contract.

Go ahead and accept it conditionally ... might be a good chance to think up some REALLY challenging conditions ... like ... IF I TURN IN MY RIFLE AND GET SUBSEQUENTLY MURDERED DO YOU AGREE TO SUPPORT MY WIFE AND FIVE CHILDREN FOR THE NEXT 300 YEARS?

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in NY city, owned one of these rifles, and were presented with this notice?

[Twisted Titan]

The larger point is being missed.

How did NYPD know how to send out those letters???

Because to hold any type of permit in the 5 bouroghs you have to license that is renewed yearly (?) I saw one and it looked just like a DL you had to have your mug and addresse on it.


REGISTRATION HAS LEAD TO CONFISCATION AND NOW THE GENOCIDE WILL BEGIN IN EARNEST.



Whats the moral of the story.?

Never register ANYTHING above what it took for you to procure said weapon........ complience is akin to digging your own grave.

[Gold Rules]

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in NY city, owned one of these rifles, and were presented with this notice?

Why TF would anyone live in NYC ( sorry brother Twisty )

get out of that liberal hell hole & move to a freer state

you have the job skills ...........MOVE ( dont bitch about it - vote with your wallet )

while you still..........CAN

you are not going to change anything by staying there

get out .......NOW

[Twisted Titan]

Im in New Germany.........

There has been allot of talk of trying to revise New germany Gun laws it just seem that we keep doging the bullet.

The Old Jew latenberg was crafting a hellfied antigun bill that would have been his signature piece of legislation to screw over honest folk but fortunate his Master Satan called him home rather unexpectently.

Im under no misconceptions its just a matter time before the hammer falls......... especially now that Jew York has started its rollout in earnest.

The Wife is on notice that I am not giving up the means to protect me and mines and we will adjust our plan accordingdly.

[Hitch]

Whats the moral of the story.?

Never register ANYTHING above what it took for you to procure said weapon........ complience is akin to digging your own grave.[/B][/I]

They know what we all have. They can push a fucking button and it pops up on their screen.

All that's left, is to mail the letters. They will tax us for the postage stamp, too.

I am worried about this, TT.

[Twisted Titan]

Nothing to get worried about.

Just a mattter of acceptance.

I have made peace with my maker about this.

The greater portion of my life has been committed to avoidence, de escalation and non violence.

I cant tell you how many times I elected to walk away from a buttmunch mouthing off that was more then begging for a asskicking and some authority figure abusing their station at my expense.

I am not going to ask anbody for permisson to protect myself, that files in the face of natural law anytime you run afoul of natural edicts calamity is sure to follow soon enough.


When the time comes I am going to do WHATEVER TO WHOEVER thinks they have the right to deprive me of the above mentioned.

The time for any peacable discourse or solution is all but over.

The only thing left now is the physical enforcement of wills.

[midnight rambler]

They know what we all have. They can push a fucking button and it pops up on their screen.

lol You could not be more wrong. There is no way in the world that 'they' have any handle on the FTF secondary market (which is precisely why 'they' are so desperate to close the so-called 'gunshow loophole' - which in reality doesn't exist). I've done deals where I pulled up, parked (in one case not even shutting off my truck while I walked into someone's garage for no more than 60 seconds), walked into someone's house or office or met someone in a parking lot and handed them FRNs for their piece while only exchanging first names and the deal was done in under 2-3 minutes. From my experience some folks some to prefer the anonymity. However when selling I make sure to spend some time with them and engaging in a conversation to get a feel for who they are, and sometimes making out a BOS. Less than 10% of the time have I had someone ask to see my ID and/or make out a BOS.

[palani]

Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you lived in NY city, owned one of these rifles, and were presented with this notice?
Thank them for their offer and agree that I would be willing to comply with all terms conditioned upon a $20 million dollar escrow account being established by them in an offshore bank of my choosing which account would be surrendered to a third party fiduciary (who would be instructed to use the funds to care for my family or me) should any event happen which might have been prevented by my possession of a firearm.

If my kind and thoughtful offer was rejected I would propose an alternative one .. they agree to pay for a security detail of my choosing and armed appropriately. My thoughts would be along the lines of 'Bamas security detail only 10 times larger.

Now equally important to responding is to be able to actually prove you responded. So be prepared to send the letter certified return receipt. Take a notary along when you mail it and have her sign an affidavit that she saw it mailed. Another little trick is to make a copy of the letter and have the post office round stamp both the original and the copy with their date stamp ... then mail the original and keep the copy. Oh, and don't keep their original letter. After you counteroffer you really want to return their original ... just keep a copy.

Other ways to respond with your counteroffer are as a legal notice or you might post it on the oak tree in front of the courthouse or on their legal notice bulletin board. Make sure you take a witness to provide you with an affidavit of your posting activities.

[Hitch]

lol You could not be more wrong.

You don't live in CA or know what we have to deal with, regarding firearm purchases. DOJ background checks, and transfers of title, etc. They say there's no registration, but they know what we have here. All that paper trail, I'm sure they have access to with the push of a button.

I imagine the same for folks in NY. I hope you can see my concern here. It may be just a matter of time before we all simply get letters, to turn in any guns they might want from us.

[Dogman]

You don't live in CA or know what we have to deal with, regarding firearm purchases. DOJ background checks, and transfers of title, etc. They say there's no registration, but they know what we have here. All that paper trail, I'm sure they have access to with the push of a button.

I imagine the same for folks in NY. I hope you can see my concern here. It may be just a matter of time before we all simply get letters, to turn in any guns they might want from us. Storefront sales, yes.


But person to person = private sales can not be tracked unless someone is dumb enough to report the sale and numbers to the ptb.

[Hitch]

But person to person = private sales can not be tracked unless someone is dumb enough to report the sale and numbers to the ptb.

Not in CA Dogman, all private sales/transfers must go through an authorized FFL dealer. Background checks, 10 day waiting period, the works.

[Dogman]

Understand what you are saying about the law.

I agree with midnight rambler in part.

Wonder how many sales are done under the table, and kept locked out of sight? Never taken into the public?

Nothing to stop friends/neighbors and such to do a cash and carry, it may be illegal but bet that does not stop most from doing it.

[Hitch]

Understand what you are saying about the law.

I agree with midnight rambler in part.

Wonder how many sales are done under the table, and kept locked out of sight? Never taken into the public?

Nothing to stop friends/neighbors and such to do a cash and carry, it may be illegal but bet that does not stop most from doing it.

Cash and carry would stop me from doing it. Say I circumvented the law, and sold a gun cash under the table. They can still link that firearm to me. If it was ever used in a crime, I'd be screwed. Not only would I have sold it illegally, but also could be an assessory to any crime used by that gun.

I know Midnight knows what he's talking about. I think we are just so far gone here in CA regarding our gun rights, it's just inevitable. They will take what they want to take. We may be forced with a hard choice, to stand up and just say NO.

[Libertytree]

Thank them for their offer and agree that I would be willing to comply with all terms conditioned upon a $20 million dollar escrow account being established by them in an offshore bank of my choosing which account would be surrendered to a third party fiduciary (who would be instructed to use the funds to care for my family or me) should any event happen which might have been prevented by my possession of a firearm.

If my kind and thoughtful offer was rejected I would propose an alternative one .. they agree to pay for a security detail of my choosing and armed appropriately. My thoughts would be along the lines of 'Bamas security detail only 10 times larger.

Now equally important to responding is to be able to actually prove you responded. So be prepared to send the letter certified return receipt. Take a notary along when you mail it and have her sign an affidavit that she saw it mailed. Another little trick is to make a copy of the letter and have the post office round stamp both the original and the copy with their date stamp ... then mail the original and keep the copy. Oh, and don't keep their original letter. After you counteroffer you really want to return their original ... just keep a copy.

Other ways to respond with your counteroffer are as a legal notice or you might post it on the oak tree in front of the courthouse or on their legal notice bulletin board. Make sure you take a witness to provide you with an affidavit of your posting activities.

Yeah do this! And become a Palaniholster at your own peril. Naw... who would really do that? Seriously, would anyone here paint a target on themselves in such a manner? Or? This is the tryouts for an opening at the comedy club.

[Blink]

Thank them for their offer and agree that I would be willing to comply with all terms conditioned upon a $20 million dollar escrow account being established by them in an offshore bank of my choosing which account would be surrendered to a third party fiduciary (who would be instructed to use the funds to care for my family or me) should any event happen which might have been prevented by my possession of a firearm.

If my kind and thoughtful offer was rejected I would propose an alternative one .. they agree to pay for a security detail of my choosing and armed appropriately. My thoughts would be along the lines of 'Bamas security detail only 10 times larger.

Now equally important to responding is to be able to actually prove you responded. So be prepared to send the letter certified return receipt. Take a notary along when you mail it and have her sign an affidavit that she saw it mailed. Another little trick is to make a copy of the letter and have the post office round stamp both the original and the copy with their date stamp ... then mail the original and keep the copy. Oh, and don't keep their original letter. After you counteroffer you really want to return their original ... just keep a copy.

Other ways to respond with your counteroffer are as a legal notice or you might post it on the oak tree in front of the courthouse or on their legal notice bulletin board. Make sure you take a witness to provide you with an affidavit of your posting activities.


Wouldn't they at that point just come over, beat the shit out of you, confiscate your guns, throw your ass in jail (after maybe getting you patched up at the hospital), abuse/torture/threaten you some more before "they let" you see your lawyer. Then maybe on a conditional release (without your guns mind you) throw your sorry ass to the curb and tell you not to come back. You will quote your knowledge of judicial legalese back at them, but alas, to no avail. In the end (months maybe years) you might get back "some" of your firearms back as well as a file number as a domestic terrorist. Now, that is just one scenario and it ends rather peacefully. I would imagine that when SWAT turns up that you would be killed right off the bat and they just take everything thus negating any delays in the justice system. Sorry, thats how it seems to work to me and how the justice system works for the man........

[palani]

Yeah do this! ...who would really do that?
My guess is a timid little rabbit would avoid standing out at all costs. But then a timid little rabbit has no rights at all does it?

[Hitch]

Wouldn't they at that point just come over, beat the shit out of you, confiscate your guns, throw your ass in jail (after maybe getting you patched up at the hospital), abuse/torture/threaten you some more before "they let" you see your lawyer. Then maybe on a conditional release (without your guns mind you) throw your sorry ass to the curb and tell you not to come back. You will quote your knowledge of judicial legalese back at them, but alas, to no avail. In the end (months maybe years) you might get back "some" of your firearms back as well as a file number as a domestic terrorist. Now, that is just one scenario and it ends rather peacefully. I would imagine that when SWAT turns up that you would be killed right off the bat and they just take everything thus negating any delays in the justice system. Sorry, thats how it seems to work to me and how the justice system works for the man........

Palani is an idealist, bless his soul. You are a realist. God bless you both.

[palani]

Palani is an idealist

Less idealist and more practical application.

You find yourself in a commercial plane. Don't you believe it is a good idea to know the rules by which that plane operates?

When you achieve independence from the commercial plane don't doubt but that the system will come up with some other rules to throw at you. Then it will be up to you to figure out what plane they have tossed at you this time.

[Libertytree]

My guess is a timid little rabbit would avoid standing out at all costs. But then a timid little rabbit has no rights at all does it?

This is laughable, you yourself has openly stated it's better to not be a target and to take the quiet way out. Which is it? Now you're contradicting yourself.

[Hitch]

When you achieve independence from the commercial plane don't doubt but that the system will come up with some other rules to throw at you. Then it will be up to you to figure out what plane they have tossed at you this time.

Real life suggests the FED plane, or drone, would show up, and just blow me out of the sky at that point.

Look at the folks in NYC. They just got a letter to turn in their guns. Do you really think some fancy mumbo jumbo terms are going to get them out of that?

[BrewTech]

You find yourself in a commercial plane. Don't you believe it is a good idea to know the rules by which that plane operates?



http://cbsla.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/point_mugu_plane_crash_110518_53.jpg?w=300&h=225

I guess the trick is to never get on the "plane" in the first place.

Once you're on, you're at the mercy of the "plane".

[7th trump]

This is laughable, you yourself has openly stated it's better to not be a target and to take the quiet way out. Which is it? Now you're contradicting yourself.
You notice that too.

Also, if palani knew how to get off the commercial plane this discussion of rabbits wouldn't be taking place.
It would just be easier to modify the guns to only accept 5 rounds and keep the guns?

In all, I hope I don't ever have to fire more than 2 or 3 rounds in any gun fight.

[palani]

This is laughable, you yourself has openly stated it's better to not be a target and to take the quiet way out. Which is it? Now you're contradicting yourself.
This IS the quiet way out.

[Hitch]

It would just be easier to modify the guns to only accept 5 rounds and keep the guns?

In all, I hope I don't ever have to fire more than 2 or 3 rounds in any gun fight.

I don't like it and it stinks. Also, I hope to never get into any gun fights.

[palani]

Do you really think some fancy mumbo jumbo terms are going to get them out of that?
Yes. Very likely.

You will likely not understand this but for background read up on the Laws of the Forest. One of the animals that populate a forest is a Hart. One of the animals that populate a chase is a Buck. Now what are they? Male deer. Both are the same critter yet are called by separate names should they be in a forest or in a chase. You will find neither of these named critters in a warren though. Yet someone wandering around in a woods can't tell if he is in a forest, a chase or a warren. They are all the same place although in different PLANES.

Wait. There is more. The forest belongs to the king. The stag doesn't become a Hart until the king gives chase to him. And if the king chases him and he gets away he is a Hart Royal. Then if the king chooses to make a proclamation that places this particular buck out of bounds to anyone else he becomes a Hart Royal Proclaimed.

[palani]

I guess the trick is to never get on the "plane" in the first place.

Once you're on, you're at the mercy of the "plane".
I admit avoidance is the preferred method but once you realize you are not where you want to be maybe you could look at structuring your life differently?

Your house for example. Rather than just going out and buying one (how you going to do that when there is no MONEY?) look at obtaining a shelter that has not been entered into commerce. Granted the easy way is plunk down some FRNs and work your tail off to pay the mortgage and property tax. You get to pretend that you own the structure this way but it is going to consume your entire life to pay it off.

[palani]

if palani knew how to get off the commercial plane this discussion of rabbits wouldn't be taking place
Knowing what is and what is not a contract offer is the first step. I am afraid you will never achieve this level of freedom though.

That's ok. The system needs worker slaves and I guess you choose to volunteer for the office.

[Libertytree]

I admit avoidance is the preferred method but once you realize you are not where you want to be maybe you could look at structuring your life differently?

Your house for example. Rather than just going out and buying one (how you going to do that when there is no MONEY?) look at obtaining a shelter that has not been entered into commerce. Granted the easy way is plunk down some FRNs and work your tail off to pay the mortgage and property tax. You get to pretend that you own the structure this way but it is going to consume your entire life to pay it off.

IOW's...RENT. Or maybe it means squat on the land and post a notice of some sort?

[Hitch]

Yes. Very likely.

You will likely not understand this but for background read up on the Laws of the Forest. One of the animals that populate a forest is a Hart. One of the animals that populate a chase is a Buck. Now what are they? Male deer. Both are the same critter yet are called by separate names should they be in a forest or in a chase. You will find neither of these named critters in a warren though. Yet someone wandering around in a woods can't tell if he is in a forest, a chase or a warren. They are all the same place although in different PLANES.

Wait. There is more. The forest belongs to the king. The stag doesn't become a Hart until the king gives chase to him. And if the king chases him and he gets away he is a Hart Royal. Then if the king chooses to make a proclamation that places this particular buck out of bounds to anyone else he becomes a Hart Royal Proclaimed.

Palani, I'm not getting your point, though I wish I could understand what you are talking about...

If you have any real advise I could use to keep my guns, please let me know. I only see two options, turn them in when asked, or stand beside TT and deny their request.

[Son-of-Liberty]

Palani,

The problem is that even if you are right about sending a counter offer , the people sending the confiscation letter and the goons enforcing it might not know that. There is a high probability that SWAT will kick down your door at 3am and kill you.

When dealing with the tax man there are usually multiple threatening letters before they get to garnishment and then arrest so there is plenty of time to use legal jujitsu to protect yourself. In this situation the best option would be hand in the guns or move.

The solution in to the problem would be to not register your guns to begin with and this is a perfect example of why you shouldn't.

[palani]

IOW's...RENT. Or maybe it means squat on the land and post a notice of some sort? Don't use money to pay for your shelter.

Maybe that means you find some abandoned property and you put in sweat equity and salvaged parts. Maybe it means you find a nice woods and hoist a platform to live on at the 100 ft level. Maybe get some 55 gallon drums, build a platform and a hut on them and put it on the lake.

[7th trump]

Knowing what is and what is not a contract offer is the first step. I am afraid you will never achieve this level of freedom though.

That's ok. The system needs worker slaves and I guess you choose to volunteer for the office.

A city law, or any law for that matter, is not a contract.


In common law legal systems, a contract is an agreement having a lawful object entered into voluntarily by two or more parties, each of whom intends to create one or more legal obligations between them. The elements of a contract are "offer" and "acceptance" by "competent persons" having legal capacity who exchange "consideration" to create "mutuality of obligation."[1]
See anything in the definition that says a law is a contract?
I don't see anything about any law that even comes close to "whom intends to create one or more legal obligations between them". A law is not a voluntary contract with legal obligation between the two parties. There's no element of offer or acceptance in this gun law the city passed.
The city passed a law that particular guns are to have a limit on capacity....no negotiations period....end of story!

The only option left is for a New Yorker (a state citizen, not jurisdictional US citizen,...one of the People) to file suit and challenge the law in court and claim it violates his individual 2nd amendment Right.

Observe these court cases as to what they are saying.


“The governments of the United States and of each state of the several states are distinct from one another. The rights of a citizen under one may be quite different from those which he has under the other”.
Colgate v. Harvey, 296 U.S. 404; 56 S.Ct. 252 (1935)


“There is a difference between privileges and immunities belonging to the citizens of the United States as such, and those belonging to the citizens of each state as such”.
Ruhstrat v. People, 57 N.E. 41 (1900)


“The rights and privileges, and immunities which the fourteenth constitutional amendment and Rev. St. section 1979 [U.S. Comp. St. 1901, p. 1262], for its enforcement, were designated to protect, are such as belonging to citizens of the United States as such, and not as citizens of a state”.
Wadleigh v. Newhall 136 F. 941 (1905)


“...rights of national citizenship as distinct from the fundamental or natural rights inherent in state citizenship”.
Madden v. Kentucky, 309 U.S. 83: 84 L.Ed. 590 (1940)

City laws do not trump the Constitution, but a US citizen who doesn't have access to the 2nd amendment will lose in court.
Care to take a stab at why palani?

[palani]

Palani, I'm not getting your point, though I wish I could understand what you are talking about... Seeking to actually see what isn't there is an acquired skill.


If you have any real advise I could use to keep my guns, please let me know. I only see two options, turn them in when asked, or stand beside TT and deny their request.
Learn contract law. When 'asked' look to your options (aka counteroffer). You deny anything and you engage in dishonor and that will definitely be punished.

[Hitch]

In this situation the best option would be hand in the guns or move..

This is the bottom line.

While this thread only affects folks in NYC, for now. For now. This is the trend our country is heading, and this is the choice we all may face one day.

[palani]

Palani,

The problem is that even if you are right about sending a counter offer , the people sending the confiscation letter and the goons enforcing it might not know that. There is a high probability that SWAT will kick down your door at 3am and kill you. Isn't this why you actually want to keep a weapon or three handy?


When dealing with the tax man there are usually multiple threatening letters before they get to garnishment and then arrest so there is plenty of time to use legal jujitsu to protect yourself. In this situation the best option would be hand in the guns or move. If you feel comfortable doing this then it becomes your choice.


The solution in to the problem would be to not register your guns to begin with and this is a perfect example of why you shouldn't. In this country firearms manufactured before 1899 or replica black powder guns are not subject to regulation. These older guns are just as lethal and much more LEGAL.

[palani]

A city law, or any law for that matter, is not a contract. City law regulates people in a city. What is a city? A municipality? And a municipality is

MUNICIPALITY. The body of officers, taken collectively, belonging to a city, who are appointed to manage its affairs and defend its interests.

Now are you in a city or not? Are you one of the officers appointed to manage affairs?


See anything in the definition that says a law is a contract? See anything in the code that says it is a law? A contract is the law of the case. Even if you presume there are silent contracts at work (Mercier) novation is still possible.



I don't see anything about any law that even comes close to "whom intends to create one or more legal obligations between them". A law is not a voluntary contract with legal obligation between the two parties. There's no element of offer or acceptance in this gun law the city passed.
The city passed a law that particular guns are to have a limit on capacity....end of story!
When you subject yourself to punishment through a municipal court you fail in constitution 101. Administrative courts are not actually constitutional .. instead they exist in a world called BILL OF ATTAINDER or the less lethal BILL OF PAINS AND PUNISHMENT. You cannot be judged in a court that wraps executive, legislative and judicial actions all in one. That is what BILL OF ATTAINDER is all about. So you being such a constitutional scholar just why are you afraid of being sent to a municipal court for judgment?

[Hitch]

When 'asked' look to your options (aka counteroffer). You deny anything and you engage in dishonor and that will definitely be punished.

Palani, this is the 'crux' of our discussion. There is 'no' counteroffer with madmen, maniacs, the folks who are hell bent to take our rights away.

Heck, read a MAGNES post. There is no reasoning with maniacs. There is no contracts.

I love your idealism, and I will try to understand and learn from your perspective, but it is just not realistic, imo.

[7th trump]

City law regulates people in a city. What is a city? A municipality? And a municipality is

MUNICIPALITY. The body of officers, taken collectively, belonging to a city, who are appointed to manage its affairs and defend its interests.

Now are you in a city or not? Are you one of the officers appointed to manage affairs?

See anything in the code that says it is a law? A contract is the law of the case. Even if you presume there are silent contracts at work (Mercier) novation is still possible.



When you subject yourself to punishment through a municipal court you fail in constitution 101. Administrative courts are not actually constitutional .. instead they exist in a world called BILL OF ATTAINDER or the less lethal BILL OF PAINS AND PUNISHMENT. You cannot be judged in a court that wraps executive, legislative and judicial actions all in one. That is what BILL OF ATTAINDER is all about. So you being such a constitutional scholar just why are you afraid of being sent to a municipal court for judgment?

You really are delusional!
The city law is codified as a law....not as a contract.
Contracts are not even codified.
Sure contracts are the law of a case. But we aren't talking about a contract going bad requiring court action....the courts will rule in favor as the contract was agreed upon between two party's and if one party fails the other will sue and wins 10 out 10 times....but in this case the law was never a contract to begin with.

That last part of your post I'd say ...no shit Sherlock.
I'd bet you'd also find when you are in a Bill of Attainder your also known as a US citizen.
Here's the proof.


A bill of attainder (also known as an act of attainder or writ of attainder) is an act of a legislature declaring a person or group of persons guilty of some crime and punishing them without privilege of a judicial trial. As with attainder resulting from the normal judicial process, the effect of such a bill is to nullify the targeted person’s civil rights, most notably the right to own property (and thus pass it on to heirs), the right to a title of nobility, and, in at least the original usage, the right to life itself. Bills of attainder were used in England between about 1300 and 1800 and resulted in the executions of a number of notable historical figures. However, the use of these bills eventually fell into disfavour due to the obvious potential for abuse and the violation of several legal principles, most importantly separation of powers, the right to due process, and the precept that a law should address a particular form of behaviour rather than a specific individual or group. For these reasons, bills of attainder are expressly banned by the United States Constitution as well as the constitutions of all 50 US states.
Hmmm....civil rights huh.....which jurisdictional person again has "civil rights" and very little Bill of Rights?
Who is that person palani?

Like I said in post #53
" The only option left is for a New Yorker (a state citizen, not jurisdictional US citizen,...one of the People) to file suit and challenge the law in court and claim it violates his individual 2nd amendment Right."

In all honesty this 5 round city law isn't even infringing on the 2nd amendment. You still have a right to bear arms. So its going to be a tuff battle.

[palani]

There is no reasoning with maniacs. There is no contracts.

I love your idealism, and I will try to understand and learn from your perspective, but it is just not realistic, imo.
This is merely a discussion forum for entertainment and enjoyment. If thoughts were seeds then time is required to germinate.

[palani]

You really are delusional! I see things you will never see.

The city law is codified as a law....not as a contract. There are no people in any city.

Contracts are not even codified. Is this a bad thing?

Sure contracts are the law of a case. But we aren't talking about a contract going bad requiring court action....the courts will rule in favor as the contract was agreed upon between two party's and if one party fails the other will sue and wins 10 out 10 times....but in this case the law was never a contract to begin with. Duty is derived from oath or contract. Should you look and find no oath then you had best examine the field of contract.


That last part of your post I'd say ...no shit Sherlock. To which I reply .. TOURETTES.


I'd bet you'd also find when you are in a Bill of Attainder your also known as a US citizen. Bills of attainder are mortal. Bills of pains and punishments are less so. In any case administrative law is part and parcel of both of them. How do you propose fitting this fact in
Here's the proof.[/quote] Your PROOF is obviously from a more current lawbook than I possess. Here is what Bouviers had to say before words started shifting in meaning.


BILL OP ATTAINDER, legislation, punishment. An act of the legislature by which one or more persons are declared to be attainted, and their property confiscated.

2. The Constitution of the United States declares that no state shall pass any bill of attainder.

3. During the revolutionary war, bills of attainder, and ox post facto acts of confiscation, were passed to a wide extent. The evils resulting from them, in times of more cool reflection, were discovered to have far outweighed any imagined good. Story on Const. §1367. Vide Attainder; Bill of Pains and Penalties.



Hmmm....civil rights huh.....which jurisdictional person again has "civil rights" and very little Bill of Rights?
You use flawed definitions you are bound to come to flawed conclusions.

[palani]

See. No discrimination at all. Sock puppets get their weapons seized too

http://l.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/131209/sockmonkey3.jpg

http://news.yahoo.com/sock-monkey-s-toy-gun-detained-by-tsa-215850875.html

Sock monkey's toy gun confiscated by TSA


Transportation Security Administration workers can face real danger, as was demonstrated during the deadly shooting at Los Angeles International Airport last month.

Still, confiscating a sock monkey's sidearm? Washington state resident Phyllis May told Seattle's King5.com that she was chastised by a TSA agent over the fact that her stuffed sock monkey (name: Rooster Monkburn, a takeoff on Rooster Cogburn of "True Grit" fame) carried a toy pistol.

May told King5.com that she and her husband were going through security at St. Louis International Airport when a TSA agent held up one of her bags and asked who it belonged to.

May, who sells customized sock monkeys online, told the agent it belonged to her. That's then things took a turn for the surreal.

Via King5.com:

“She said, 'This is a gun,’ ” said May. “I said no, it’s not a gun it’s a prop for my monkey.”

“She said if I held it up to your neck, you wouldn’t know if it was real or not, and I said, 'Really?’ ” said May.

The "gun" is roughly the size of three quarters placed end-to-end. The TSA agent took Rooster's gun and told May that she was supposed to contact the police. May asked the agent if she was kidding, and the agent assured her that she wasn't.

View gallery
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The "gun" in question (Phyllis May via King5.com)

According to King5.com, the agent did not alert the police. May did get the rest of her sewing supplies back. No word on what happened to Rooster's gun, but May was able to see the humor in the situation.

Via King5.com:

“Rooster Monkburn has been disarmed so I’m sure everyone on the plane was safe,” she said. “I understand she was doing her job but at some point doesn’t common sense prevail?”