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madfranks
8th December 2013, 04:00 PM
I've done alright this year with virtual currencies, so I took some small profit taking a couple weeks ago, to satisfy some numismatic cravings. I bought a PCGS slabbed MS-63 1926 sesquicentennial $2.50 gold eagle, and a roll of mixed morgan/peace silver dollars. Roughly $50 in BTC/LTC purchased earlier this year turned into this:

http://www.images-apmex.com/handlers/ThumbJpeg.ashx?VFilePath=~/Resources/Catalog%20Images/Products/75311_Obv.jpg&width=300&height=300

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PBSazCGaL._SX300_.jpg

Son-of-Liberty
8th December 2013, 04:05 PM
Very nice madfranks! That is how you do it.

Cebu_4_2
8th December 2013, 08:03 PM
I still have a couple hundred Morgans left, the price is way too soft to be popping them on ebay.

Horn
8th December 2013, 08:32 PM
http://freedomshammer.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/jesus-casting-better.jpg

Even Jesus himself would not be able to find your Bitcoins, they are so anonymous.

JohnQPublic
8th December 2013, 11:34 PM
Very nice madfranks! That is how you do it.

That's the way you do it- money for nothin' and chicks for free.

Shami-Amourae
9th December 2013, 04:30 AM
Personally I want to get a larger percentage of my wealth in cryptocurrencies. I like trading with alt-cryptos and take "profits" in Bitcoins. If I made $100,000 or something, sure I'd take some cash and buy a truck or some land. But until that, I'd rather keep it in the market.

Son-of-Liberty
9th December 2013, 08:26 AM
Personally I want to get a larger percentage of my wealth in cryptocurrencies. I like trading with alt-cryptos and take "profits" in Bitcoins. If I made $100,000 or something, sure I'd take some cash and buy a truck or some land. But until that, I'd rather keep it in the market.

I like trading crypto's too. Where else can you trade something and not get totally screwed with fee's. Most of the crypto exchanges charge 0.2% or 0.002 of the trade and it doesn't matter if it is a $10000, trade or $10 trade. With stocks and options and such the fees alone make it unprofitable to trade unless you are fairly wealthy.

madfranks
18th December 2013, 08:25 AM
Wow, for once my timing was right. A bit of profit taking at high points is not a bad thing.

Neuro
19th December 2013, 03:03 AM
Wow, for once my timing was right. A bit of profit taking at high points is not a bad thing.
No one has died from taking a profit once in a while. Aiming to get the absolute peak in an overheated market is exceedingly difficult. I think Ponce managed to do that in 1980, when he sold silver at $47 or so. Well done MF! And Ponce of course!!!

Shami-Amourae
19th December 2013, 03:17 AM
I honestly just want a to have a percentage of my wealth now in cryptos. Maybe 10%.

I heard a recent interview with Adam Kokesh. If you don't recall he went to jail. The police stole all the money out of his bank accounts, all his cash, and his entire Silver horde. The only thing they couldn't get to was his Bitcoins/Litecoins. That's a piece of mind I'd like to have.

Neuro
19th December 2013, 04:46 AM
I honestly just want a to have a percentage of my wealth now in cryptos. Maybe 10%.

I heard a recent interview with Adam Kokesh. If you don't recall he went to jail. The police stole all the money out of his bank accounts, all his cash, and his entire Silver horde. The only thing they couldn't get to was his Bitcoins/Litecoins. That's a piece of mind I'd like to have.
They could still detain you forever, without bringing out any charges against you... Anyway, yeah I see your point, and now you can buy the bitcoins with a 60% discount... Wouldn't that stink? Getting released from jail and the 10% you put away for a rainy day is only 4%...

Sorry Shami I can't stop needling you! ;)

Shami-Amourae
20th December 2013, 12:55 PM
They could still detain you forever, without bringing out any charges against you... Anyway, yeah I see your point, and now you can buy the bitcoins with a 60% discount... Wouldn't that stink? Getting released from jail and the 10% you put away for a rainy day is only 4%...

If everything else is taking from you that still is a good deal to me.


Sorry Shami I can't stop needling you! ;)

You were?

Neuro
20th December 2013, 02:34 PM
If everything else is taking from you that still is a good deal to me.



You were?
I guess, and not.

Horn
20th December 2013, 02:47 PM
Adam probably purchased Terracoins.

The simple fact is niether Lite, Bit, nor Name have any market credence to last longer than a Netscape web browser.

They all can and will be easily replaced for one that has a viable real market hookup besides online casinos, and the like.

Son-of-Liberty
20th December 2013, 07:22 PM
You guys are forgetting that Kokesh was in Jail since July when BTC was about $100. So even if they are down 50% now he is still up 600% since he went to jail. Not too shabby.

Neuro
21st December 2013, 12:02 AM
You guys are forgetting that Kokesh was in Jail since July when BTC was about $100. So even if they are down 50% now he is still up 600% since he went to jail. Not too shabby.
Just what you want when you are in jail, a hidden treasure that varies in price between the moon and worthlessness... Why not just put a few gold coins under a big rock in the forest. You really don't want to risk being jailed and released at the wrong time. I guess Kokeshill was lucky with his timing though, how many bit coins does he have?

mick silver
21st December 2013, 05:56 AM
i took some Profit yesterday i bought some 1 oz silver bars

Horn
21st December 2013, 10:36 AM
Just what you want when you are in jail, a hidden treasure that varies in price between the moon and worthlessness... Why not just put a few gold coins under a big rock in the forest. You really don't want to risk being jailed and released at the wrong time. I guess Kokeshill was lucky with his timing though, how many bit coins does he have?

Kokesh even mentioning his Bitcoins only proves he's the agent provocateur everyone suspects he is.

What exactly was the reasoning given by authorities for delving into his assets?

Neuro
21st December 2013, 11:56 AM
Kokesh even mentioning his Bitcoins only proves he's the agent provocateur everyone suspects he is.

What exactly was the reasoning given by authorities for delving into his assets?
I doubt it even to be true. Trying to steal the assets of a Jew would be one of the most heinous anti-Semitic acts against proper humanity possible. No authority who wants to remain in that position would attempt that. I knew he was taken into custody prior to that 4th of July March on Washington, but I sort of remember he was released after a week or so. Was he arrested later again?

Horn
21st December 2013, 12:38 PM
Sounds like his own people did him in...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SuEZq7WGSY

madfranks
30th November 2017, 06:33 AM
Personally I want to get a larger percentage of my wealth in cryptocurrencies. I like trading with alt-cryptos and take "profits" in Bitcoins. If I made $100,000 or something, sure I'd take some cash and buy a truck or some land. But until that, I'd rather keep it in the market.

Or a house? Hey, you've met your goal, maybe now is a good time to cash in and take some of that profit!

madfranks
30th November 2017, 06:35 AM
And as we're on the subject of profit taking, yesterday when BTC was ~$10,300, I traded 1 BTC for SEVEN ounces of gold.

Hitch
30th November 2017, 07:10 AM
And as we're on the subject of profit taking, yesterday when BTC was ~$10,300, I traded 1 BTC for SEVEN ounces of gold.

You madfranks, are my new hero. I want to be like you when I grow up.

When the smart folks start selling and taking profits, it can and will cause a mass panic in the huge BTC bubble that's been created.

Jewboo
30th November 2017, 02:21 PM
And as we're on the subject of profit taking, yesterday when BTC was ~$10,300, I traded 1 BTC for SEVEN ounces of gold.

Shami should listen to Madfranks and buy that Idaho house now.

:)

TroyOz
30th November 2017, 03:46 PM
And as we're on the subject of profit taking, yesterday when BTC was ~$10,300, I traded 1 BTC for SEVEN ounces of gold.

If you don't mind me asking, what was your entry point on the bitcoins. Feel free not to answer.

madfranks
1st December 2017, 06:46 AM
If you don't mind me asking, what was your entry point on the bitcoins. Feel free not to answer.

My first bitcoins I paid $40 for on ebay, but I traded those ones long ago, some as documented on this thread, trading some for gold earlier this year. (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?96121-Pre-33-gold-vs-bullion&p=903548&viewfull=1#post903548) My biggest bitcoin purchase however, was this:

https://s33.postimg.org/3ktnd3gf3/10_BTC.jpg

Of all of those, I'm down to less than 1 now (other than my physical BTC coins), mostly because I had to sell most of them earlier this year to pay for some unexpected and expensive financial hardships. The timing was really bad, because that was just before this crazy rally started and I had to sell most of my holdings for ~$1300/BTC.

Jewboo
1st December 2017, 07:12 AM
Count your blessings Madfranks. You got out with some real money just before the mob goes insane in our streets:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?97485-The-Death-of-Paper-Money

Bitcoins are "jew confetti".

:)



The currency became known as "Judefetzen" (Jew- confetti), hinting at the chain of events that would lead to Kristallnacht a decade later.

madfranks
1st December 2017, 08:09 AM
Count your blessings Madfranks. You got out with some real money just before the mob goes insane in our streets:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?97485-The-Death-of-Paper-Money

Bitcoins are "jew confetti".

:)


I don't think bitcoins are going away, but I do think we're on the verge of another massive bear market in cryptos. Once this mania fizzles out, watch BTC crash back down to between $1-2k.

Camp Bassfish
1st December 2017, 08:18 AM
I don't think bitcoins are going away, but I do think we're on the verge of another massive bear market in cryptos. Once this mania fizzles out, watch BTC crash back down to between $1-2k.

I'll admit not paying much attention to the whole crypto boom, so this question may sound dumb, but can you short them?

TroyOz
1st December 2017, 08:28 AM
I'll admit not paying much attention to the whole crypto boom, so this question may sound dumb, but can you short them?

Soon:

http://www.cmegroup.com/media-room/press-releases/2017/10/31/cme_group_announceslaunchofbitcoinfutures.html


News Release
CME Group Announces Launch of Bitcoin Futures
Tue Oct 31 2017

CHICAGO, Oct. 31, 2017 /PRNewswire/ -- CME Group, the world's leading and most diverse derivatives marketplace, today announced it intends to launch bitcoin futures in the fourth quarter of 2017, pending all relevant regulatory review periods.

The new contract will be cash-settled, based on the CME CF Bitcoin Reference Rate (BRR) which serves as a once-a-day reference rate of the U.S. dollar price of bitcoin. Bitcoin futures will be listed on and subject to the rules of CME.

"Given increasing client interest in the evolving cryptocurrency markets, we have decided to introduce a bitcoin futures contract," said Terry Duffy, CME Group Chairman and Chief Executive Officer. "As the world's largest regulated FX marketplace, CME Group is the natural home for this new vehicle that will provide investors with transparency, price discovery and risk transfer capabilities."

Since November 2016, CME Group and Crypto Facilities Ltd. have calculated and published the BRR, which aggregates the trade flow of major bitcoin spot exchanges during a calculation window into the U.S. Dollar price of one bitcoin as of 4:00 p.m. London time. The BRR is designed around the IOSCO Principles for Financial Benchmarks. Bitstamp, GDAX, itBit and Kraken are the constituent exchanges that currently contribute the pricing data for calculating the BRR.

"We are excited to work with CME Group on this product and see the BRR used as the settlement mechanism of this important product," said Dr.Timo Schlaefer, CEO of Crypto Facilities. "The BRR has proven to reliably and transparently reflect global bitcoin-dollar trading and has become the price reference of choice for financial institutions, trading firms and data providers worldwide."

CME Group and Crypto Facilities Ltd. also publish the CME CF Bitcoin Real Time Index (BRTI) to provide price transparency to the spot bitcoin market. The BRTI combines global demand to buy and sell bitcoin into a consolidated order book and reflects the fair, instantaneous U.S. dollar price of bitcoin in a spot price. The BRTI is published in real time and is suitable for marking portfolios, executing intra-day bitcoin transactions and risk management.

Cryptocurrency market capitalization has grown in recent years to $172 billion, with bitcoin representing more than 54 percent of that total, or $94 billion. The bitcoin spot market has also grown to trade roughly $1.5 billion in notional value each day.

For more information on this product, please visit cmegroup.com/bitcoinfutures.

As the world's leading and most diverse derivatives marketplace, CME Group (www.cmegroup.com) is where the world comes to manage risk. Through its exchanges, CME Group offers the widest range of global benchmark products across all major asset classes, including futures and options based on interest rates, equity indexes, foreign exchange,energy, agricultural products and metals. CME Group provides electronic trading globally on its CME Globex platform. The company also offers clearing and settlement services across asset classes for exchange-traded and over-the-counter derivatives through CME Clearing. CME Group's products and services ensure that businesses around the world can effectively manage risk and achieve growth.

CME Group, the Globe Logo, CME, Chicago Mercantile Exchange, CME Direct and Globex are registered trademarks of Chicago Mercantile Exchange Inc. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

CME-G

TroyOz
1st December 2017, 08:45 AM
Madfranks - you did well anyway. At least you had the foresight and risk appetite to give it a go. I just sat on my hands, even though I started reading about bitcoin around when they were a few bucks, just didn't understand what they were - I thought they were gamer tokens, then a payment system. I mentioned to my wife several times that we should buy a few hundred worth just to do it. Oh well, just missed the biggest thing of the century :)

edit to add: What is a physical Bitcoin?

Ares
1st December 2017, 09:16 AM
I don't think bitcoins are going away, but I do think we're on the verge of another massive bear market in cryptos. Once this mania fizzles out, watch BTC crash back down to between $1-2k.

I've been watching and I'm not so sure about a bear coming into the crypto space anytime soon. Yeah we had a correction down to 8500, but it bounced back to 10730 as of this post. CME opening trading, CBOE, Goldman Sach's, JPM, etc jumping into the space for trading this is a huge spigot of money that is going to soon get dumped into a relatively small market.

If someone wants to get a good idea of where some of the big crypto players are thinking Bitcoin is going I recommend giving this article by Trace Mayer a read. He recommended to his readership to get into Bitcoin when it was 25 cents a coin.

The Great Bitcoin Bull Market Of 2017
http://www.runtogold.com/the-great-bitcoin-bull-market-of-2017/

He is a gold bug by the way.

I believe we're on the cusp of completely transforming the financial world.


Camp Bassfish, you could of shorted Bitcoin on some other unregulated Exchanges for a while. They also allow margin trading. I think what this will do is prevent Naked short selling that is used to suppress the Gold and Silver price whenever it runs up. With Bitcoin every wallets allotted amount is public record.

You can see some of the current Exchange wallets now and how much they contain here: https://www.walletexplorer.com/

The reason I say that is say for Example Goldman Sucks, and or JPM decide to open trading directly on their platform, they'll need a Bitcoin wallet, that will show up on the blockchain and likely get identified relatively quickly. So if they end up having 5,000 BTC in their wallet, you see a short of 25,000 BTC you'll know they'll be full of shit and can call them on their bluff by raising an option against the short.

They aren't used to transparency, so this will get interesting.

EE_
1st December 2017, 09:56 AM
We do know the government/global elite wants a global currency. Now that Wall Street is fully involved in the crypto market, they should be able to prop it up at every turn, just like everything else. Lots of reasons to keep this going.
Also, we know the government/global elite do not want the common man to have real money and they will do everything to stop you from owning precious metals.

Ares
1st December 2017, 10:18 AM
We do know the government/global elite wants a global currency. Now that Wall Street is fully involved in the crypto market, they should be able to prop it up at every turn, just like everything else. Lots of reasons to keep this going.
Also, we know the government/global elite do not want the common man to have real money and they will do everything to stop you from owning precious metals.

But the key here is transparency. They want transparency when you conduct your transactions in their currency. They DO NOT want transparency when they conduct transactions in the currency. They also want to control it, with a distributed system like this there isn't a way to control it. Just ask China how their Bitcoin and ICO ban is going. It's a running joke on the Bitcointalk forum with the Chinese users discussing how they just trade at the Japan / South Korea exchanges to get around the Chinese Bitcoin ban.

madfranks
1st December 2017, 10:36 AM
edit to add: What is a physical Bitcoin?

It's essentially a bitcoin cold wallet, which is a printout of both the wallet address and the digital key needed to control the funds on the network. Anyone can see the balance of the wallet at any time (this is the transparency that Ares mentions), but you can't access the funds without the key, and the sole copy of key is printed on the underside of a tamper-proof hologram adhered to the reverse of a physical coin. They were developed by folks who recognized that bitcoin was the closest thing to a digital equivalent of gold/silver bullion, and wanted to marry the two into one package. Here's a picture of my most valuable coin:

https://s33.postimg.org/pgkh8ga8b/5_BTC_Hybrid_1.jpg

https://s33.postimg.org/3u5grfjdn/5_BTC_Hybrid_2.jpg

If I ever wanted to spend those bitcoins, I'd peel the hologram off the back, open a bitcoin wallet, import the wallet address and unlock the funds with the key.

madfranks
1st December 2017, 10:41 AM
I believe we're on the cusp of completely transforming the financial world.

Hmm, I agree bitcoin is a game changer, but I'm not convinced it's going to completely transform the financial world. I expect governments will stick to their central bank fiat money, and here's the thing, the only reason why the people use fiat money is because the government forces them to. The only way cryptos completely transform the financial world is for governments to adopt them and force their economies to use them the same way they force us to use fiat. I can't imagine any government giving up central bank funny money only to turn around and enforce cryptocurrencies as the mandated money for their nation. And without national economies using it, it'll always be second place to national fiat money.

Ares
1st December 2017, 11:13 AM
Hmm, I agree bitcoin is a game changer, but I'm not convinced it's going to completely transform the financial world. I expect governments will stick to their central bank fiat money, and here's the thing, the only reason why the people use fiat money is because the government forces them to. The only way cryptos completely transform the financial world is for governments to adopt them and force their economies to use them the same way they force us to use fiat. I can't imagine any government giving up central bank funny money only to turn around and enforce cryptocurrencies as the mandated money for their nation. And without national economies using it, it'll always be second place to national fiat money.

That's the beauty of crypto's. They don't have to be adopted by the government or forced to be used. People can use them now voluntarily, if they never convert them to fiat, they do not even have to pay a tax.

It will change the financial system one way or the other due to competition. But Bitcoin and other cryptos need to mature more before they can take on government currencies.

madfranks
1st December 2017, 12:48 PM
That's the beauty of crypto's. They don't have to be adopted by the government or forced to be used. People can use them now voluntarily, if they never convert them to fiat, they do not even have to pay a tax.

It will change the financial system one way or the other due to competition. But Bitcoin and other cryptos need to mature more before they can take on government currencies.

In this way they're the same as gold and silver bullion then. But Gresham's Law is why we don't see people generally using gold/silver for transactions when they can use fiat instead. For the most part, I'd rather spend the paper FRNs in my wallet than spend my bitcoin. Yes, bitcoin and cryptos are much easier to trade/barter with than physical gold/silver bullion, and that fact accounts for some additional economic use, but overall, given the opportunity to spend fiat or crypto, most people will tend to spend the fiat and keep the crypto.

Ares
1st December 2017, 02:17 PM
In this way they're the same as gold and silver bullion then. But Gresham's Law is why we don't see people generally using gold/silver for transactions when they can use fiat instead. For the most part, I'd rather spend the paper FRNs in my wallet than spend my bitcoin. Yes, bitcoin and cryptos are much easier to trade/barter with than physical gold/silver bullion, and that fact accounts for some additional economic use, but overall, given the opportunity to spend fiat or crypto, most people will tend to spend the fiat and keep the crypto.

True enough, but it goes without saying if the only thing people are using fiat for is to pay taxes to the governments with its own worthless currency and are actively using cryptos to avoid paying taxes it sets up a self supporting feed back loop.

Grishams law would apply to crypto as well. People horde Bitcoin using the deflationary value to purchase less valuable cryptos to engage in commerce with.

Jewboo
1st December 2017, 04:57 PM
That's the beauty of crypto's. They don't have to be adopted by the government or forced to be used. People can use them now voluntarily, if they never convert them to fiat, they do not even have to pay a tax. It will change the financial system one way or the other due to competition. But Bitcoin and other cryptos need to mature more before they can take on government currencies.

http://goodfilmguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Invention-of-lying-1.jpg

Cryptos are not "money" and must be first converted to fiat to actually buy anything. The moment you convert to fiat is the moment your government notices your sudden unexplained wealth.

You can't just start flashing money and expect nobody to notice...especially the IRS and your local bank teller.











https://content.newsinc.com/jpg/1970/33105393/65095304.jpg?t=1507762380https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/e5690929b4f4bb873c5f686a1f20ffb3819ecc21/c=118-0-3478-2520&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2015/07/23/JacksonMS/B9318126085Z.1_20150723002329_000_GJJBDDGFD.1-0.jpg
Of course I gotta fill out the IRS "suspicious money" form sweetie...

Ares
1st December 2017, 05:33 PM
http://goodfilmguide.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Invention-of-lying-1.jpg

Cryptos are not "money" and must be first converted to fiat to actually buy anything. The moment you convert to fiat is the moment your government notices your sudden unexplained wealth.

You can't just start flashing money and expect nobody to notice...especially the IRS and your local bank teller.











https://content.newsinc.com/jpg/1970/33105393/65095304.jpg?t=1507762380https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/e5690929b4f4bb873c5f686a1f20ffb3819ecc21/c=118-0-3478-2520&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2015/07/23/JacksonMS/B9318126085Z.1_20150723002329_000_GJJBDDGFD.1-0.jpg
Of course I gotta fill out the IRS "suspicious money" form sweetie...



Wrong, I've purchased many items using cryptos. Guess how much capital gains tax I paid? ZERO. I never converted to fiat, and stayed within Crypto. The IRS rules are very clear on this point. If you "cash out" you owe a capital gains. As more businesses convert to using cryptos you do not have to "cash out" and are able to use cryptos as their intended design, as money.

Jewboo
1st December 2017, 05:42 PM
If you "cash out" you owe a capital gains.



http://blog.independent.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2658137_ML-230x153.jpg

No "if" about it. WHEN you cash out.













https://volkundvaterland.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/jewsfedres.jpg

Ares
1st December 2017, 05:47 PM
http://blog.independent.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/2658137_ML-230x153.jpg

No "if" about it. WHEN you cash out.













https://volkundvaterland.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/jewsfedres.jpg


IF you cash out. If I purchase anything I'll find a retailer that accepts Bitcoin as payment and will use them to avoid cashing out.

https://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/16-6277/index.html

You can also do a round about way of spending Bitcoin on Amazon. Venezuela uses it to get around their countries atrocious capital controls. egifter.com which will accept up to $2000 USD worth of Bitcoin to generate an Amazon gift card which will buy you virtually anything you'd like.

So no, there is no "WHEN" I cash out there is an "IF" I cash out as there is absolutely no need to.

Hitch
2nd December 2017, 11:28 AM
You can also do a round about way of spending Bitcoin on Amazon. Venezuela uses it to get around their countries atrocious capital controls. egifter.com which will accept up to $2000 USD worth of Bitcoin to generate an Amazon gift card which will buy you virtually anything you'd like.

Which is .gov speak for money laundering. The problem with bitcoin, is that it's value is denominated in dollars (or other gov currency), not in the bitcoin itself. Would you buy a pizza with one bitcoin? No, because the value is over $10,000 for a bitcoin, and a pizza delivered is $20. The value is in dollars, in that case. Same point if you actually traded 20 bitcoins for a house. That house is valued at $200,000 and you have to pay taxes on that amount.

You might sneak around the taxman for small purchases, but anything in real value you will have to pay taxes in dollars, not bitcoins.

Hitch
2nd December 2017, 11:37 AM
Furthermore, for bitcoin to be truly money, people would have to sell things n bitcoin while refusing dollars, or yen, or any other currency. You'd have to be completely stupid to do that though. Say I list a house for 20 bitcoins. Bitcoins are so volatile, that the very next day that house could be only worth 10 bitcoins....or maybe 50 bitcoins if the value tanks. The only thing that gives bitcoins value is exchanging them for currency, which is what is actually used as money. Money needs to be a fairly stable store of value and determining value, bitcoins are not.

That's why this thread is about profit taking....you only take profits when you cash OUT of bitcoin (and get slammed with taxes as Jewboo pointed out).

Ares
2nd December 2017, 12:34 PM
Furthermore, for bitcoin to be truly money, people would have to sell things n bitcoin while refusing dollars, or yen, or any other currency. You'd have to be completely stupid to do that though. Say I list a house for 20 bitcoins. Bitcoins are so volatile, that the very next day that house could be only worth 10 bitcoins....or maybe 50 bitcoins if the value tanks. The only thing that gives bitcoins value is exchanging them for currency, which is what is actually used as money. Money needs to be a fairly stable store of value and determining value, bitcoins are not.

That's why this thread is about profit taking....you only take profits when you cash OUT of bitcoin (and get slammed with taxes as Jewboo pointed out).

You people are asking a lot of a currency that is only 8 years old.

There are places that you can buy products / services in Bitcoin directly. But most do convert them to USD or Euro.

Everything you listed could be said about Gold and Silver. One is controlled and shorted to near worthlessness while being used for thousands of years as a medium of exchange. The other is only 8 years old, and decentralized.

Hitch
2nd December 2017, 01:11 PM
Everything you listed could be said about Gold and Silver. One is controlled and shorted to near worthlessness while being used for thousands of years as a medium of exchange. The other is only 8 years old, and decentralized.

Wrong, gold and silver have been used for thousands of years as a currency because it's value is stable, and there's no inflation or deflation. The amount of gold/silver increases roughly at the same rate as population growth, through mining. The money supply grows with the population. Bitcoin is the opposite. It's shrinking while the population (ie demand) is growing.

Bitcoin is the biggest deflation bubble ever created, having gone up from pennies on the dollar to $10,000 in only 8 years. A great investment? Yes, for the smart folks who CASHED OUT their profits. A currency, heck no.

Ares
2nd December 2017, 01:25 PM
Wrong, gold and silver have been used for thousands of years as a currency because it's value is stable, and there's no inflation or deflation. The amount of gold/silver increases roughly at the same rate as population growth, through mining. The money supply grows with the population. Bitcoin is the opposite. It's shrinking while the population (ie demand) is growing.

Bitcoin is the biggest deflation bubble ever created, having gone up from pennies on the dollar to $10,000 in only 8 years. A great investment? Yes, for the smart folks who CASHED OUT their profits. A currency, heck no.

Wrong, I guess you don't remember reading what the Comstock lode did to the price of silver?

How many times have crypto guys here argued with you guys pointing out the utility of crytpo currencies only to watch you guys piss and moan non-stop about it not being gold and silver?

Money evolves over time, and Bitcoin isn't the only game in town anymore. This is the free market looking for alternatives to being regulated, constrained and oppressed to the point of being near useless to exchange value.

Don't like it? I honestly don't care, it's not up to me. Me and others have just pointed out the usefulness of it.

As far as increase in price, when you have 70 trillion dollars sloshing around and even a tiny bit of that goes into a market of a finite supply of any item you can damn well expect a price increase. The only reason you're seeing it rise is because the big controllers haven't been able to figure out a way to hide the inflation of the major currencies like they have with gold and silver.


And don't feed me a line of pure bullshit about crytpo currencies being controlled, every aspect of a coin is open sourced and reviewable, and requires VOLUNTARY compliance to participate.

Hitch
2nd December 2017, 03:29 PM
Wrong, I guess you don't remember reading what the Comstock lode did to the price of silver?

How many times have crypto guys here argued with you guys pointing out the utility of crytpo currencies only to watch you guys piss and moan non-stop about it not being gold and silver?

Money evolves over time, and Bitcoin isn't the only game in town anymore. This is the free market looking for alternatives to being regulated, constrained and oppressed to the point of being near useless to exchange value.

Don't like it? I honestly don't care, it's not up to me. Me and others have just pointed out the usefulness of it.

As far as increase in price, when you have 70 trillion dollars sloshing around and even a tiny bit of that goes into a market of a finite supply of any item you can damn well expect a price increase. The only reason you're seeing it rise is because the big controllers haven't been able to figure out a way to hide the inflation of the major currencies like they have with gold and silver.


And don't feed me a line of pure bullshit about crytpo currencies being controlled, every aspect of a coin is open sourced and reviewable, and requires VOLUNTARY compliance to participate.

Ares, this is a gold and silver forum. Of course folks are going to gripe and complain about bitcoin. I'm proud of you guys who were able to make big profits on bitcoin, but bitcoin is not the solution for honest money. It's an investment to gamble on and hopefully take profits.

As far as being controlled, I bet .gov and the cia has recruited the smartest tech geeks out there to try and find some flaw in bitcoin. If people lose faith in bitcoin, it will crash overnight. Plus, what if a pissed off government printed a bunch of money, bought a huge stake in bitcoin then dumped millions of bitcoins on the market....a classic pump and dump.

Bitcoin is a fashion, not a currency. There's no limit to the number of crypto currencies that could actually be created. The most "popular" one seems to win out. The only reason bitcoin has so much value is because it's popular, but that could change overnight.

Ares
2nd December 2017, 04:00 PM
Ares, this is a gold and silver forum. Of course folks are going to gripe and complain about bitcoin. I'm proud of you guys who were able to make big profits on bitcoin, but bitcoin is not the solution for honest money. It's an investment to gamble on and hopefully take profits.

And that's where the gripe comes into play. It's more than money. It's a solution that has existed since the concentration of wealth into hands who are hell bent on having you live under their rules. That includes gold supposedly locked away in Fort Knox, but most likely in the basement of a Federal Reserve Bank in New York. You do not know how much gold they hold, they do not allow audits. The entire system even if we went back to a gold / silver standard is setup to rob from YOU. Your wealth, and your labor which you use to put food on your table. Crypto currencies are honest in a way that mankind has not had in centuries. Every single coin can be accounted for, can you say that about Gold, Silver, or hell even the USD? That removes the barrier of corruption, I'm not saying it's not possible, but it certainly makes it harder.


As far as being controlled, I bet .gov and the cia has recruited the smartest tech geeks out there to try and find some flaw in bitcoin. If people lose faith in bitcoin, it will crash overnight. Plus, what if a pissed off government printed a bunch of money, bought a huge stake in bitcoin then dumped millions of bitcoins on the market....a classic pump and dump.

They'll create a short dip, but buyers will buy as the price goes down. With only 21 million ever to be mined and last estimates show that 2.78 million coins are gone forever (people lost the private keys, died, forgot about them etc.) You can only dump so many. You can view market volume all over the world to see that. As far as being able to find a flaw Bitcoin and Crypto currencies in general are not like normal exploitable software as software can be exploited, PROTOCOLS cannot. Protocols in computer language is certain procedures have to be followed in order to accomplish a task. Think of Crypto currencies like the TCP/IP protocol which has been around since the dawn of the information age as a means of transporting data from point A to point B. It is susceptible to certain exploits (IP spoofing), but even the spoof follows the specific protocol standards or it will not work. Same with Bitcoin, that's the nature of how it was built. You have every single Node on the network (not just miners) validating the transactions. Once the miners validate a transaction and broadcast it to the network its up to the nodes to write it to the blockchain. It has to follow that procedure, if for any reason a transaction will show up as invalid it does not get written into the blockchain and is discarded as invalid. There isn't a way to exploit that procedure. The only known way would be the 51% network attack, meaning an adversary would have to accomplish 51% of the network hashrate to insert fraudulent transactions, but current hashrate is about 8,457,005,236 GH/s, so good luck to anyone trying to overcome 51% of that..


Bitcoin is a fashion, not a currency. There's no limit to the number of crypto currencies that could actually be created. The most "popular" one seems to win out. The only reason bitcoin has so much value is because it's popular, but that could change overnight.

Wrong, it was the first and if you follow technology it has market advantage. There are issues with Bitcoin, namely scalability it takes far to long to confirm a transaction. It usually averages a backlog of 20,000 to 100,000 unconfirmed transactions just waiting to be confirmed into the blockchain. So used as an everyday currency you're absolutely right it is not suitable, BUT there are others who have implemented segwit with lightening network (Litecoin) who can complete a transaction in seconds similar to a credit card. Would that not make it a currency?

Some of you fail to understand that a currency is whatever 2 people agree to use when a buyer and a seller decide to exchange value. With the internet age it was bound to happen to have a currency come along that could be used to send value electronically to anyone around the planet.

Bitcoins value is that it was first, it paved the way. It's not fashionable, if it was there sure as hell would not be satellite uplinks to broadcast the blockchain to any node wanting to listen for it who does not have internet access.

https://media.coindesk.com/uploads/2017/08/Blockstream_Satellite_Phase12_Coverage_Areas.jpg

All of this infrastructure being built has value. If it increases to the price of 100k to 1 million USD a coin like so many are saying it has the potential too, then I could see it being used for large international settlements. Its far cheaper to use Bitcoin to exchange value between major players without an international bank taking a percentage of a billion dollar settlement contract paying 100k in transaction fee's and taking close to a week vs Bitcoin which would cost you 1 USD to send 1 billion USD in value across the globe in 10 minutes to an hour.

The Free market is all about efficiency. If Bitcoin dies tomorrow another will rise to take its place. Blockchain technology is not going away. Research a coin, find something you like and ride it up in value and purchase gold and silver to bring the banksters to heel. Crypto currencies are a tool when used correctly and wisely they are empowering.

Hitch
2nd December 2017, 04:34 PM
Ares, thank you. That was by far the most informative breakdown of bitcoin and crypto currencies I ever read. The reference to tcp/ip protocols as an example, I understand more now, being an obsolete tech guy myself.

One thing I do like about bitcoin, is that it's people that give it value. People that really want an honest and government free way of exchange and store of value. With 21 million bitcoins as a max possible, for it to be worth over $10K a coin...that's a lot of people speaking right there, dumping dollars and other currencies to go into this.

Ares
2nd December 2017, 05:04 PM
Ares, thank you. That was by far the most informative breakdown of bitcoin and crypto currencies I ever read. The reference to tcp/ip protocols as an example, I understand more now, being an obsolete tech guy myself.

It helps it try and compare Bitcoin to a protocol because once you read the code you'll see that that is how it operates. Step 1 equals step 2, to step 3 and complete process. Everything in that order has to be accomplished in that specific order and it does not allow for any variances. Reading through Satoshi Nakamoto's writings on the blog he (they?) first published it said it took them over 2 years to work out the methodology to complete. Reading the white paper as well as his (their?) writing you'll see a lot of thought went into it. He took a lot of careful considerations to solve the double spending problem.


One thing I do like about bitcoin, is that it's people that give it value. People that really want an honest and government free way of exchange and store of value. With 21 million bitcoins as a max possible, for it to be worth over $10K a coin...that's a lot of people speaking right there, dumping dollars and other currencies to go into this.

There is, when Bitcoin first got above 1k 90% of the volume was with 1 exchange (Mt. Gox). Now with the current run up in price to a little north of 11k, you'll see that the volume is pretty evenly distributed around the globe. https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

This shows that a lot of fiat currencies are flowing into Bitcoin and other crypto currencies at the moment. Likely in preparation for when the CME starts allowing future trading for Bitcoin on 12/18/2017. I can't remember the guys name, but he's projecting $40,000 per Bitcoin by the end of December 2018.

Trace Mayer first recommended his readership to get into Bitcoin back in 2010 when it was just 25 cents a coin. If you have the time, give this article of his a read. He's been at this a while, he's a gold bug as well as a guy who detests governments in general.

http://www.runtogold.com/the-great-bitcoin-bull-market-of-2017/

It's a very good read and goes into far more detail about the advantages that crypto currencies have. There is also a YouTube video of him from October of this year where he discussed that eBay who dominated the mid to late 90s early 2000s had 2 network effects that were driving it. He said Bitcoin has 7 network effects. Like I said he goes into a lot of detail and is extremely informative.

EE_
2nd December 2017, 05:59 PM
It helps it try and compare Bitcoin to a protocol because once you read the code you'll see that that is how it operates. Step 1 equals step 2, to step 3 and complete process. Everything in that order has to be accomplished in that specific order and it does not allow for any variances. Reading through Satoshi Nakamoto's writings on the blog he (they?) first published it said it took them over 2 years to work out the methodology to complete. Reading the white paper as well as his (their?) writing you'll see a lot of thought went into it. He took a lot of careful considerations to solve the double spending problem.



There is, when Bitcoin first got above 1k 90% of the volume was with 1 exchange (Mt. Gox). Now with the current run up in price to a little north of 11k, you'll see that the volume is pretty evenly distributed around the globe. https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#markets

This shows that a lot of fiat currencies are flowing into Bitcoin and other crypto currencies at the moment. Likely in preparation for when the CME starts allowing future trading for Bitcoin on 12/18/2017. I can't remember the guys name, but he's projecting $40,000 per Bitcoin by the end of December 2018.

Trace Mayer first recommended his readership to get into Bitcoin back in 2010 when it was just 25 cents a coin. If you have the time, give this article of his a read. He's been at this a while, he's a gold bug as well as a guy who detests governments in general.

http://www.runtogold.com/the-great-bitcoin-bull-market-of-2017/

It's a very good read and goes into far more detail about the advantages that crypto currencies have. There is also a YouTube video of him from October of this year where he discussed that eBay who dominated the mid to late 90s early 2000s had 2 network effects that were driving it. He said Bitcoin has 7 network effects. Like I said he goes into a lot of detail and is extremely informative.

Can you explain for simple minds how a typical bitcoin transaction goes. (from home pc)
Say you are transferring money to me.

1. go on bitcoin site?
2. type in a code number?
3. ?
4. ?

Ares
2nd December 2017, 06:48 PM
Can you explain for simple minds how a typical bitcoin transaction goes. (from home pc)
Say you are transferring money to me.

1. go on bitcoin site?
2. type in a code number?
3. ?
4. ?

Here is a video that walks you through a Bitcoin transaction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71pM14enWik

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71pM14enWik

It's a pretty straight forward process, once you do it a couple times you'll get the hang of it relatively quickly.

EE_
2nd December 2017, 07:02 PM
Here is a video that walks you through a Bitcoin transaction.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71pM14enWik

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71pM14enWik

It's a pretty straight forward process, once you do it a couple times you'll get the hang of it relatively quickly.

That didn't explain it all. All the guy did was click withdraw?
The video left out signing on to the site with account #, typing in code/codes? This is the part I want to know about.

Ares
2nd December 2017, 07:27 PM
That didn't explain it all. All the guy did was click withdraw?
The video left out signing on to the site with account #, typing in code/codes? This is the part I want to know about.

That depends on the wallet you get. If you download the Bitcoin Core wallet that is about the most secure way you can use and store Bitcoins outside of a hardware wallet. You do not need to use a password to receive Bitcoins. You click the button under receive and you copy the address and send that address to someone you want to receive Bitcoins from. That is your "Public Key" and is used to receive Bitcoins.

If you do get Bitcoin Core you'll need to leave it running so that it's always in Sync with the network. It's about a 145GB download as it downloads every single block which started in January 2009, and a new block gets generated on average of 1 every 10 minutes, so it's a lot of blocks since 2009. :)

It will ask you during the installation to encrypt your wallet, this is your password to lock the private key. This is only used to Send Bitcoins. So if you send a Bitcoin you would use someone else's Public Key, paste that into address, and select the amount of Bitcoin you want to send, hit Send and it will ask you for your password to unlock the Private Key to sign the transaction to submit it to the blockchain.

This is all transparent to the user.

There are other wallets, Hybrid wallet (Blockchain.info) which you can access via a Webpage, or your smartphone. There is also a purely web based wallet for your smartphone like Mycelium. They all work essentially the same. Send / Receive.

You can also use client based wallets such as Exodus, which I used before I got a hardware wallet. It's easy to install, setup, and use and is very straight forward. I also like that it displays your assets in whatever currency you would like to use and provides you a graph to track your assets.

It's what is called a multi-coin wallet as you can use it for multiple coins.

https://www.exodus.io/

This would probably be about the easiest wallet to use, and doesn't require you to download the blockchain to use. Your private key is secure and it does encrypt the wallet.
When it installs it will generate a 12 word passphrase, these words are a way to generate your private key. You write these down on a piece of paper and lock it away in your safe. This is in case something ever happens to your computer / wallet you can recover your crypto assets.