Bitcoin Was Created By DARPA

[PatColo]

Bitcoin Was Created By DARPA (http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/bitcoin-was-created-by-darpa/69573)

Posted on December 20, 2013 (http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/bitcoin-was-created-by-darpa/69573) by # 1 NWO Hatr (http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/author/number-1-nwo-hatr)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dSWtkoD1ykU/UrPMEN7hm1I/AAAAAAAAHtU/YgWkz4oU3uY/s400/Unknown-2.jpeg
The Usuary Free Eye Opener

(http://usuryfree.blogspot.com/2013/12/bitcoin-was-created-by-darpa.html)

There is no way to stop what is going to happen to bitcoin. It’s an issue of sociology. It’s an issue of human greed. It’s an issue as to WHO created bitcoin and WHY.


Who is the single largest holder of BTC right now? “Satoshi”. Who is he? I will say it again. NSA/DARPA created bitcoin under the guidance of the IMF. The IMF has been openly calling for a digital, one-world, deflationary currency for 2 decades. OPENLY. It has been discussed and promoted OPENLY at G8 and G20 summits.


from the early 90s-96 the NSA was OPENLY investigating cryptographic money networks.


http://groups.csail….int/nsamint.htm



One of their researchers and investigators is a man named Tatsuaki Okamoto. When they actively started writing the code they chose the pseudonym “Satoshi Nakamura” to ultimately promote the idea that Tatsuaki Okamoto to any and all who investigated the source of bitcoin long enough. But Tatsuaki Okamoto is just a cog. He’s not some rogue savoir out to topple centralized banks. Not at all. He is a crypto scientist who was paid by government and intelligence agencies to do research.


Bitcoin is an NSA/DARPA lab set into the wild. Scientific technology grants issued by government and intelligence agencies are how these labs are funded and promoted. The regulation and control of bitcoin has been actively developed alongside the development of the network. In fact, the controls, policy and regulation are WAY WAY more mature than the bitcoin protocol itself. That’s why we see things like Greenlist written into law without a mention of bitcoin until recently.


This is not tinfoil hattish. This is just reality. No one forced ANYONE to believe the Satoshi fairytale.. The libertarian Satoshi myth has been promoted in stealth to specifically promote ADOPTION and DEVELOPMENT. It’s no different than the internet and WWW itself. EXACTLY the same. That is why you see many www early adopters saying bitcoin “feels” the same as the early internet. I am one of those people.


In 94-96 the public internet was ALL about freedom of information. FREE COMMUNICATION. It was ALL about liberty and freedom. I wish i could transport some of you back in time so you could see for yourselves. The promise of free phonecalls with the freeworlddialup, free media with IUMA and the MBONE. All this freedom and liberty had people pouring their heart and soul into developing it. Now look at it. Facebook, google.. it is a GIANT SURVEILLANCE grid. And if you look for and read DARPA/NSA docs from the 80s and early 90s that was what it was always meant to be. I am not discounting all the socially great things that happen online.. But from the perspective of DARPA/NSA and control freaks.. it was created for the express purpose of control. A military purpose. A strategic purpose.


What is bitcoin? Bitcoin IS the one world digital currency. We all have a deterministic UUID that has been generated from our biometric data. This UUID will be related to all your datastores. This UUID is your mark. This UUID is what is used to buy and sell online and in the real world. This UUID is the primary key in your Greenlist identity.


Coinbase, blockchain.info and it would appear Coinsetter are inline to be the first to roll out the incoming policy and regulation. This policy and regulation is WORLD WIDE. It is CORPORATE. It is not about governments. Governments ADOPT corporate organized policies. If you think this is new than you need to investigate ACH and NACHA. https://www.nacha.or…l-services-hsbc



Bitcoin is THEIR network. And for the minority early adopters that is going to be a hard pill to swallow.. But for those in the know.. Like Gavin, it’s PAYDAY. Realization and monetization of their massive bitcoin holdings is being guaranteed by regulators. That is why they are all literally RUSHING to regulate.


Legitimization of bitcoin is all about hosted wallets. The centralization of bitcoin. Hosted wallet providers approve/dissaprove transactions before they are actually issued on the network. Greenlist enabled wallets will be the fastest. (offline transactions). Greenlist enabled wallets will be hooked directly to your bank account, ease of buying and selling. Greenlist enabled exchanges will have the largest market with the best prices. Greenlist enabled wallets will completely eliminate risk of stolen coins. No more security worries AT ALL. And this is what the masses have come to expect. And this is why it’s going to happen. And Greenlisted wallets will be accepted everywhere. And in the physical world you will identify yourself and your wallet with your biometrics.


https://bitcointalk….?topic=173715.0



TL;DR bitcoin is a global digital currency, regulation was created in tandem with development and adoption, bitcoin is not and never was meant to be a liberty promoting value exchange. There is no “satoshi”. The central banks are already the largest holders of bitcoin. Bitcoin IS going to the moon because of this.


NOTE: This article is originally posted at these websites. (Lots of interesting comments about “Bitcoin” to read also at the forums on these websites.


1. websites (websiteshttp://forums.thechaniproject.com/topic/6465-bitcoin-was-created-by-darpa:%201.)http://forums.thechaniproject.com/topic/6465-bitcoin-was-created-by-darpa:
2.http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1r7iks/bitcoin_was_created_by_darpa_xpost_rbitcoin

(http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/1r7iks/bitcoin_was_created_by_darpa_xpost_rbitcoin)

NOTE: Check out the list of digital (crypto-currencies) otherwise referred to as “virtual currencies at this website: (http://coinmarketcap.com/)http://coinmarketcap.com



These “virtual currencies: do not exist in the physical world as coins or paper notes. They exist exclusively in cyberspace.
Another interesting article: “Why Virtual Currency Is Here To Stay (http://moneymorning.com/2013/11/22/why-virtual-currency-is-here-to-stay-bitcoin-or-no-bitcoin).”


NOTE: Bitcoin and the other “virtual currencies” that are semi-anonymous, and decentralized may one day be identified as the pioneers of “internet-finance.” We’ll see what happens in 2014 and beyond!


At this time, I am choosing not to negotiate transactions with Bitcoin or any other virtual currency. Perhaps at some future date, when I am convinced that the “virtual currencies” are indeed “free of usury” or “usuryfree” and when I fully understand how to “earn” Bitcoin or any other “virtual currency,” I will embrace and promote the concept.


In the meantime, I prefer to create and spend my own usuryfree time currency called Kennedy Hours within my own loyal networks of participating time-traders.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JMC77E3AV7k/UrPevK045yI/AAAAAAAAHto/8Ei9Gx7Wr9w/s400/1069370_10153037032535637_296399164_n.jpg

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JMC77E3AV7k/UrPevK045yI/AAAAAAAAHto/8Ei9Gx7Wr9w/s1600/1069370_10153037032535637_296399164_n.jpg)

My one hour of basic, unskilled labour is valued at $13.00 (Canadian funds) – that’s just above the minimum wage here in Canada. Other people choose to value their one hour of unskilled labour at $12.00 (Canadian Funds) because it is easier to divide into half hours, quarter hours etc.


When I am engaged for professional consulting services, at a rate of $65,00 per hour, I simply request 5 hours for the one hour of professional service – according to the free market. ($13.00 x 5 = $65.00)
My perception is that the value of any currency is based on “trust.” Why should I “trust” Bitcoin or any other “virtual currency?”


I would rather trust the time-traders within my own loyal networks and they trust me - because we know each other and we have a track record of honour and integrity when we negotiate trades using a combination of federal cash and our own usuryfree time currency.


We search out and find or produce quality products in our local community and we offer these products and/or services that local time-traders need for themselves, their families and their SDI (Self Directed Income) enterprises.


We cover our wholesale costs with federal cash and we commonly accept the retail mark-up portion of the sale in the usuryfree time currency. This model works during these transitory times any anyone and everyone in invited to participate. Eventually, when our databases grow, we will most likely be able to negotiate our transactions with 100% of usuryfree time currency.


Right now, my preference at this time is to “trust” the “usuryfree time currency” movement as it continually gains popularity from the proven models as offered by “Ithaca Hours (http://www.ithacahours.org/)” in Ithaca, New York, USA and “Mountain Hours (http://www.mtnhours.com/)” in Summit County, Colorado, USA.


http://usuryfree.blogspot.com/2013/12/bitcoin-was-created-by-darpa.html

[Ares]

Where the hell did this guy come up with this bullshit?

The DARPA project this clown refers to was a CENTRALIZED version of crypto currency. Even the white paper references a "BANK" to keep track of and maintain the transaction log.


To protect against multiple spending, the Bank maintains a database of spent electronic coins. Coins already in the database are to be rejected for deposit. If the payments are on-line, this will prevent multiple spending. If off-line, the best we can do is to detect when multiple spending has occurred. To protect the payee, it is then necessary to identify the payer. Thus it is necessary to disable the anonymity mechanism in the case of multiple spending.

Does this even sound remotely close to Bitcoin? The paper references removing anonymity in order to secure against double spending.

Here's another example of the DARPA paper this clown refers too:


PROTOCOL 3: Untraceable On-line electronic payment.

Withdrawal:

Alice creates an electronic coin and blinds it.

Alice sends the blinded coin to the Bank with a withdrawal request.

Bank digitally signs the blinded coin.

Bank sends the signed blinded coin to Alice and debits her account.

Alice unblinds the signed coin.

Payment/Deposit:

Alice gives Bob the coin.

Bob contacts Bank and sends coin.

Bank verifies the Bank's digital signature.

Bank verifies that coin has not already been spent.

Bank enters coin in spent-coin database.

Bank credits Bob's account and informs Bob.

Bob gives Alice the merchandise.

Notice it still references a BANK? How is it that TPTB would create a system that they do not control? I have yet to see any proof of it being controlled by anyone. Most central banks, and payment processing companies have been shunning Bitcoin.

I'm all for being cautious, especially with something this new. But come on, read the paper this guy pulls this from and try to find where he's making these accusations. And if you want to read the paper yourself. It's right here:
http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nsamint.htm

Another point to add:

here's the DARPA proposed system:

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.805/articles/money/nsamint/nf2.jpg

Here's the Bitcoin system as it works today:

http://asset2.cbsistatic.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/10/31/bitcoin-640x274_270x116.jpg

Crypto currencies were researched and tried for close to a decade in the cyber punk (think computer only sci-fi geeks) realm of the Internet. No one could figure out the double spend issue since computers are so good at copying until Satoshi. Was he a DARPA / NSA asset? I have no idea, it's possible. They're always looking for talented cryptographers.

[Ponce]

Just in case?........."If you don't hold it, la la la".....I hold little and at the same time, I hold alot.

In what is to come they will find many ways to take all that you have and then all that will exist will be...."Roboman" where every human will be only a robot at the service of "THEM".

V

[Dogman]

Is that better than being "created" by AL Gore?

:)

[mick silver]

can anyone show me proof that NSA/DARPA did not come up with bitcoins ? thats the billion dollar ?

[Ares]

can anyone show me proof that NSA/DARPA did not come up with bitcoins ? thats the billion dollar ?

Staring you right in the face. You just refuse to see it.

Peer To Peer backend technology is the proof that the NSA / DARPA didn't come up with it.

[mick silver]

i still dont see nothing show us .

[Ares]

i still dont see nothing show us .

Show you what? I've explained how it works. I've given you the white paper, source code, and detailed in depth explanations. I'm either failing in my task, or its just out of your realm of understanding.

Read Peer-to-peer technology, and get back with me on how something that is volunteer peer to peer can be controlled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer

[mick silver]

if this is so easy i know a code writer an a tech guy they travel the world setting of stuff then why cant i made something called mickcoin an sell them if it this easy

[Ares]

if this is so easy i know a code writer an a tech guy they travel the world setting of stuff then why cant i made something called mickcoin an sell them if it this easy

The number of alt crypto's that are out there. That's proof enough that it is easy. But they all employ the same method that Satoshi solved. Which was the issue of double spending, and counterfeit counter measures using advanced cryptography with a reversible hash.

The not so easy part is market adoption. Since it's not centralized and there are no bullshit legal tender laws. You have to provide a reason why someone would want to buy / sell, and use mickcoins. The other altcoins are struggling with that same issue. They do not offer anything different than what Bitcoin already does. So why mine it, buy it, or even use it?

First mover advantage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-mover_advantage

[Horn]

Bitcoin is the gatekeeper to a cashless society, the people within it will hold and present 0 intrinsic value to others.

Transferring the 0% intrinsic quality into the broader economy it will menace all trust and freedom that has been ever created with honest and real money itself as an effective anti-money. As a result mankind itself will be thrust back into the dark ages (well before money was available) and into the slave trade and barter systems only when men themselves were the only thing left that hadn't been confiscated into the castle walls left with intrinsic value.



It is the greatest evil mankind has ever faced, literally the matrix.

5836


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qEsTCTuajE

[mick silver]

like i said i know two guys that does tech writing codes and we were talking and they told me if i fucked with any of they type of coins they we all were going hunting and thats a trip i may not come back from

[Ares]

Bitcoin is the gatekeeper to a cashless society, the people within it will hold and present 0 intrinsic value to others.

Transferring the 0% intrinsic quality into the broader economy it will menace all trust and freedom that has been ever created with honest and real money itself as an effective anti-money. As a result mankind itself will be thrust back into the dark ages (well before money was available) and into the slave trade and barter systems only when men themselves were the only thing left that hadn't been confiscated into the castle walls with intrinsic value.

It is the greatest evil mankind has ever faced.

People already use 0 intrinsic value mediums of exchange called credit / debit cards, FRN's government issued fiat in general. So using a virtual currency that has 0 intrinsic value isn't anything different. What's different about it is that a government entity didn't issue it, doesn't control it, and is designed to disrupt their strangled hold over every aspect of our life. The ruling elite already control 90%+ of the precious metals that do have intrinsic value. Nothing we do will ever change that by playing their game with their rules. We can continue buying precious metals, but none of us here will ever be a billionaire of have enough personal wealth to do anything to disrupt that. They rig the game, manipulate the paper price and if they can't deliver they'll settle in more worthless fiat.

It's time we flipped the game into our favor.

[Ares]

like i said i know two guys that does tech writing codes and we were talking and they told me if i fucked with any of they type of coins they we all were going hunting and thats a trip i may not come back from

:rolleyes:


Yet these jokers are perfectly happy and content accepting digital FRN's...

Yeah Okay..

[Horn]

....faithless pagan gibberish.....

We don't need to do anything differently, only you do...

[Ponce]

I simply sit back and count my rolls of tp while laughing like hell hahahahahahah.

V

[JohnQPublic]

DARPA did create the internet.

[EE_]

My God, how some people have fallen so hard for this fraudulent money scheme. Totally blinded by it.
It just shows how ready so many are for the transition into a global currency. It going to be a cake walk for them!

People will look back one day and realize how easy it would have been to beat them. All they needed to do, was to keep the cash based system they had and be their own central bank by holding gold and silver to back up the cash. Just like the bankers do it.

China knows this already.

[Cebu_4_2]

I simply sit back and count my rolls of tp while laughing like hell hahahahahahah.

V

So true! I would give you a gold star if I could, instead I only thanked you for your humerus yet intelligent comment.

[PatColo]

I'll give another plug here for Clif High's interview, the 2nd half hour of which was all bitcoin-- he's a super bc fan!
Clif High - Hour 1 - Bandwidth Caps, Bitcoin, ISON & Nummo Origins (http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2013/11/RIR-131125.php)

[PatColo]

DARPA did create the internet.

from a year ago,


48 mins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq2V_LkgRdo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq2V_LkgRdo

Download (http://www.corbettreport.com/mp3/crr265.mp3) < MP3 if you prefer to just listen

The internet. GPS. Windows. Videoconferencing. Siri. Smart dust. Why isn’t it common knowledge that these technologies started as DARPA-funded projects? When the government, defense contractors and tech giants team up to create the next generation of military technology, who wins and who loses? Find out on tonight’s broadcast.

WORKS CITED:
Army of Extreme Thinkers (http://articles.latimes.com/2003/aug/14/science/sci-darpa14)
12 Insane But True DARPA Projects (http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/government/12-insane-but-true-darpa-projects.html)
Fifty years of DARPA: Hits, misses and ones to watch (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13907)
FANG Challenge: Design a Next-Generation Military Ground Vehicle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMa1657gYIE)
10 brilliant DARPA inventions (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/373546/10-brilliant-darpa-inventions)
Director of DARPA departs Pentagon for Google (http://www.activistpost.com/2012/03/director-of-darpa-departs-pentagon-for.html)
High-Traffic Colluding Tor Routers in Washington (http://cryptogon.com/?p=624)
Creepy DARPA Robots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdYSStF4fqc)
Future World – Smart Dust (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvdGggusRYU)
Berkeley Smart Dust Project (http://robotics.eecs.berkeley.edu/%7Epister/SmartDust/)
DARPA Project List (http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/technology-article.asp?artnum=59)


35:20 he starts getting into "private/anon 'net surfing" via the TOR network. And raises questions about just how private it is, or is it another spook data mining venue.

[Ares]

We don't need to do anything differently, only you do...

Okay, explain how playing their game, with their rules is beneficial to our stated goals.

[Ares]

My God, how some people have fallen so hard for this fraudulent money scheme. Totally blinded by it.
It just shows how ready so many are for the transition into a global currency. It going to be a cake walk for them!

People will look back one day and realize how easy it would have been to beat them. All they needed to do, was to keep the cash based system they had and be their own central bank by holding gold and silver to back up the cash. Just like the bankers do it.

China knows this already.

Because the central bank, central issuing, central controlling authority cash based system we already have for 100+ years is working so well? Even using gold and silver doesn't help since they control all of it. There is no way to win this game, the sheep too indoctrinated to ever begin using gold and silver as mediums of exchange again. Don't believe me? Look at all the cash for gold commercials that have sprung up. Instead of wanting to use gold and silver, these idiots go in and trade it for worthless fiat.

The cash based system is a complete failure, every avenue controlled to the point that you can't even leave the country with large quantities of it. Thanks, but no thanks I'm done putting my faith in a centrally controlled system.. I'll choose which medium of exchange I feel is in MY best interest. You can keep using the money they control, nothing is stopping you.

[EE_]

Because the central bank, central issuing, central controlling authority cash based system we already have for 100+ years is working so well? Even using gold and silver doesn't help since they control all of it. There is no way to win this game, the sheep too indoctrinated to ever begin using gold and silver as mediums of exchange again. Don't believe me? Look at all the cash for gold commercials that have sprung up. Instead of wanting to use gold and silver, these idiots go in and trade it for worthless fiat.

The cash based system is a complete failure, every avenue controlled to the point that you can't even leave the country with large quantities of it. Thanks, but no thanks I'm done putting my faith in a centrally controlled system.. I'll choose which medium of exchange I feel is in MY best interest. You can keep using the money they control, nothing is stopping you.

It's not the cash based system that has worked well, it's gold and silver that has for a much longer time.

As I said, holding gold and silver just like central banks do and making everyone else use cash, just like banks do, is the only way to beat them at their own game. The more the banks debase the currency, the more you hold in gold then in cash.

Gold doesn't have to be the exchange between two parties, but it can be. When you need something, you exchange the amount of gold needed for cash to get what you need. Get rid of the cash quickly before it loses more value from being debased. This is the policing action of the dollar I speak of.

You are correct on one point, the sheep are too indoctrinated to have hope of anything better. So we will go where we are destined to go from the beginning.

As far as leaving the country with any amount of money and putting your faith in bitcoin instead, you are really assuming this will be possible for very long with bitcoin.

The song remains the same, so we will go where we are destined to go from the beginning.
There really is no hope.


This is the way I see it, I could be wrong.

[Ares]

It's not the cash based system that has worked well, it's gold and silver that has for a much longer time.

As I said, holding gold and silver just like central banks do and making everyone else use cash, just like banks do, is the only way to beat them at their own game. The more the banks debase the currency, the more you hold in gold then in cash.

Gold doesn't have to be the exchange between two parties, but it can be. When you need something, you exchange the amount of gold needed for cash to get what you need. Get rid of the cash quickly before it loses more value from being debased. This is the policing action of the dollar I speak of.

You are correct on one point, the sheep are too indoctrinated to have hope of anything better. So we will go where we are destined to go from the beginning.

As far as leaving the country with any amount of money and putting your faith in bitcoin instead, you are really assuming this will be possible for very long with bitcoin.

The song remains the same, so we will go where we are destined to go from the beginning.
There really is no hope.


This is the way I see it, I could be wrong.

I'm hoping in the long haul, that crypto currencies destabilize their control over just about every facet of our lives. It is a very disruptive technology in the respect that there is no central issuing authority and no one to debase it. Even with a gold backing you're still relying on a trusted institution or government not to debase the currency. Gold has a 5,000 year history as a store of value. But it also has a 5,000 year history of manipulation by those who control most of it. There isn't a single country in the history of man going back to the dawn of civilization itself where gold wasn't manipulated to favor the few who controlled its backing and issuance. The Greeks, Romans, English, and even the U.S. have all taken part in the age old practice of currency debasement.

It's time something changed to remove them from the equation. No human being should be trusted to control the value of the medium of exchange again. They simply cannot be trusted to do what is right. No matter what checks and balances are in place. History has proven time and time again that those who control the money supply will abuse it for their own interests. I prefer mathematics, it is based on logic and it simply cannot lie.

Will bitcoin stay for the long haul? I simply have no way of knowing. But through my countless hours of research into human history I know what doesn't work. This concept is totally new. It might be a completely and totally wrong concept, but I'm at least willing to give it a benefit of a doubt and try it out.

[EE_]

I'm hoping in the long haul, that crypto currencies destabilize their control over just about every facet of our lives. It is a very disruptive technology in the respect that there is no central issuing authority and no one to debase it. Even with a gold backing you're still relying on a trusted institution or government not to debase the currency. Gold has a 5,000 year history as a store of value. But it also has a 5,000 year history of manipulation by those who control most of it. There isn't a single country in the history of man going back to the dawn of civilization itself where gold wasn't manipulated to favor the few who controlled its backing and issuance. The Greeks, Romans, English, and even the U.S. have all taken part in the age old practice of currency debasement.

It's time something changed to remove them from the equation. No human being should be trusted to control the value of the medium of exchange again. They simply cannot be trusted to do what is right. No matter what checks and balances are in place. History has proven time and time again that those who control the money supply will abuse it for their own interests. I prefer mathematics, it is based on logic and it simply cannot lie.

Will bitcoin stay for the long haul? I simply have no way of knowing. But through my countless hours of research into human history I know what doesn't work. This concept is totally new. It might be a completely and totally wrong concept, but I'm at least willing to give it a benefit of a doubt and try it out.

If bitcoin topples the Fed, I will be the first to congradulate you for your insight and gladly admit I was wrong.

But if bitcoin only makes you rich and enslaves the rest by introducing a global digital currency. I will congradulate you for making a wise investment choice and cast some of the blame to you for our enslavement. I will be vindicated.

If bitcoin does neither, I'll tell you the same thing Mick would. :)

[Ares]

If bitcoin topples the Fed, I will be the first to congradulate you for your insight and gladly admit I was wrong.

But if bitcoin only makes you rich and enslaves the rest by introducing a global digital currency. I will congradulate you for making a wise investment choice and cast some of the blame to you for our enslavement. I will be vindicated.

If bitcoin does neither, I'll tell you the same thing Mick would. :)

If Bitcoin topples the fed, and puts this leviathan of a corrupt government back into its limited and confined cage. Words won't even be able to express how happy I would be at that happening.

If Bitcoin falls apart and is proven to be a complete fraud, I'll admit I was wrong and thank you and Mick for having the foresight to see it.

[Ponce]

Well, people went for the Fed funny money in 1913 so why not for the funny bitcoins in 1913?.......remember what I said about religion long ago?....."Men creates their Gods and saints, place them on a pedestal, and then pray to do for favors"...what do you think that people have done with the bitcoin with nothing behind it?

V

[Ares]

Well, people went for the Fed funny money in 1913 so why not for the funny bitcoins in 1913?.......remember what I said about religion long ago?....."Men creates their Gods and saints, place them on a pedestal, and then pray to do for favors"...what do you think that people have done with the bitcoin with nothing behind it?

V
Because mathematics isn't religion. It either equals the outcome or it doesn't. It doesn't lie, it doesn't obfuscate, cheat, steal, or enslave. It just is. Men didn't create math, we only try to understand it, and what it means for us and this small spec in the universe we call home. Bitcoin is pure math.

You're still of a mindset that a currency needs to be backed. When in reality a medium of exchange can be anything 2 people agree upon to use as the medium of exchange. Through a lot of reading on human history, every currency you back you are TRUSTING someone to maintain that value. There hasn't been a single incident in all 5,000 years that gold has been used where it hasn't been debased to benefit a few, pay for wars of privilege. I refuse to put my faith and trust in a government or institution to maintain the backing of a currency when history has shown us repeatedly that it does not and will not work. Those who are determined to game that privilege for their own benefit will do so in time. Then we're right back where we started all over again. Isn't it time we learned our lesson and stop relying on someone else to tell us what the value of the medium of exchange is and just let us determine what we want to use?

[Horn]

Okay, explain how playing their game, with their rules is beneficial to our stated goals.

Holding any asset class will not topple an age old system, it will fall apart by itself or by decree. Where our path and goals fork is in the interest and definition of what is, and what is not money.

To value a nothing as something, and to wish that same nothing upon others as a token for exchange all the while feeding the matrix more and more could be considered a base level approval for the direction that has been taken in our recent modern history. Leaving all money creation decisions up to the machine.

Good Morning, Don Quixote


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwlrx2rLFsE

[Hitch]

If Bitcoin topples the fed, and puts this leviathan of a corrupt government back into its limited and confined cage. Words won't even be able to express how happy I would be at that happening.

If Bitcoin falls apart and is proven to be a complete fraud, I'll admit I was wrong and thank you and Mick for having the foresight to see it.

Could there be a third scenario, the FED buys a controlling amount of bitcoins, manipulates the price, and takes profits the whole time folks using bitcoins think they are being free. Couldn't JPMorgan, as well, maniputate bitcoin price like they do silver?

The big money always seems to go one direction, up.

[Ares]

To value a nothing as something, and to wish that same nothing upon others as a token for exchange all the while feeding the matrix more and more could be considered a base level approval for the direction that has been taken in our recent modern history. Leaving all money creation decisions up to the machine.

And who are you to place value on a medium of exchange? I was under the impression that the free market determines what is, and what is not a medium of exchange and what value it holds. Am I wrong in that assessment?

Glad you can admit that holding an asset class will never topple an age old system. I'll never sell my gold or silver holdings unless I have to do so. But at the same time, I as well as the free market are looking for alternative mediums of exchange to use in order to conduct transactions outside the strangulation regulation control of central banks. They have been in power for far too long, and up until now there has NEVER been an alternative. You can keep playing their game, with their rules and holding whatever asset class you feel comfortable with. That's the beauty of the free market, but just as you stated it won't change our current system.

[Ares]

Could there be a third scenario, the FED buys a controlling amount of bitcoins, manipulates the price, and takes profits the whole time folks using bitcoins think they are being free. Couldn't JPMorgan, as well, maniputate bitcoin price like they do silver?


That's the big question, right now there isn't a way to short Bitcoins. If they buy up a sizable portion of bitcoins they just increase the value. If they dump it, someone else will buy it and in the end the price will again stabilize. The issue with gold and silver is that the big banks claim to hold X amount of tonnage of gold. We really have no way to tell if its true or not and have to take them at their word, which history has shown is even more worthless than their advice and investment "opportunities". Even when they've been caught lying, the SEC has done jack shit about enforcement. The BTC Blockchain is a public ledger, so say JPM says they have 1,000 BTC's in their investment trust. It better add up to the address that the share holders see, or they are caught lying to their share holders.


The big money always seems to go one direction, up.

That's easy to do when they are a controlling interests in the money creation machine. Take the machine away, or just refuse to use it's money will it go up then?

[Horn]

Could there be a third scenario, the FED buys a controlling amount of bitcoins, manipulates the price, and takes profits the whole time folks using bitcoins think they are being free. Couldn't JPMorgan, as well, maniputate bitcoin price like they do silver?

The big money always seems to go one direction, up.

There is no free market, never has been.

With Senate subcommittee , and Federal Reserve tentative approval one could find all the evidence they need to prove it is already easily manipulated to suit and serve their purpose. The Silk Road case proves its weakness in providing crypto's stated goals.

Those that embolden weakness will get their just deserts on natures stage, the Colosseum's floor.

[Ares]

There is no free market.

With Senate subcommittee , and Federal Reserve tentative approval one could find all the evidence they need to prove it is already easily manipulated to suit and serve their purpose. The Silk Road case proves its weakness in providing crypto's stated goals.

Those that embolden weakness will get their just deserts on natures stage, the Colosseum floor.

The silk Roads case? You mean where Dread Pirate Roberts was sloppy with his identity when he started promoting the Silk Road in the begining? With that, yeah I agree. But the down fall of silk road 1.0 wasn't because of the crypto currencies, it was because of it's leader.

If you go to the Silk Road forums now, they've some how implemented a system so that if the site gets confiscated again, the merchants and buyers bitcoins will not be taken. I'm not exactly sure how they accomplished that, and the new DPR doesn't go into any details about it. Just saying that they could take the site and users would still be able to withdraw their funds. They also implemented a new tumbling service to mix up payment and withdraws making the tracking process even more difficult.

[Horn]

But the down fall of silk road 1.0 wasn't because of the crypto currencies,it was because of it's leader.

Weakness begets weakness.

Admit that you are being "sold" on cryptos ability to act as a decentralized currency when all indicators point towards it being easily manipulated (and probably created) by those same centralized forces. This will make the pain of your execution by silver easier.

Now go, lay your head easily on the block that it might be lopped off.

[Hitch]

The BTC Blockchain is a public ledger, so say JPM says they have 1,000 BTC's in their investment trust. It better add up to the address that the share holders see, or they are caught lying to their share holders.




Nothing to stop JPM from buying bitcoins using multiple entities. Since bitcoins are limited in quantity. I don't understand why some big player can't buy up a whole bunch of them...driving the price up. Then dump them at the top and sell them at the high price. Then when the price tanks, buy them back at the low price again. You wouldn't even need to short bitcoin, just have a bunch of FRN's to gamble with.

[StreetsOfGold]

can anyone show me proof that NSA/DARPA did not come up with bitcoins ? thats the billion dollar ?

Can anyone show me proof a group of trained monkeys did not sit at a computer and type until they eventually came up with this code?

[mick silver]

there a few here . carry on

[madfranks]

I have to say, I'm also a member over at the bitcoin forums, and over there they don't have near as quality debates over the future of cryptos as we do here. Many of them don't even know what the word "fiat" means.

And for what it's worth, having bought and spent bitcoins over the last year, it is a truly remarkable feeling to be using currency that is completely outside the government's control. It reminds me of when I got my CCW and started carrying, how empowered I felt, that I was not subject to the protection and control of the state. It's the same when you use this kind of money, you feel empowered using it, due to the fact that it really is two free individuals voluntarily choosing to transact with it. There are no legal tender laws, no state issuance or guarantees about it. FWIW, it makes you feel free.

Not to say I prefer cryptos over gold and silver, but I can't recall a single instance where I've been able to buy anything with gold or silver.

[madfranks]

There isn't a single country in the history of man going back to the dawn of civilization itself where gold wasn't manipulated to favor the few who controlled its backing and issuance. The Greeks, Romans, English, and even the U.S. have all taken part in the age old practice of currency debasement.

I have to correct you on this. Historically this is not quite accurate. Ancient Byzantium issued gold coins known as Bezants that were never debased, and were used as money for over 700 years, longer than the Byzantium empire existed. Their money was of such good repute, the Bezant commanded a premium over other contemporary gold coins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezant


The first "bezants" were the Byzantine solidi coins, minted at a constant weight and purity since the time of Constatine I (died 337) until the mid-11th century.

[Horn]

Not to say I prefer cryptos over gold and silver, but I can't recall a single instance where I've been able to buy anything with gold or silver.

Your silver has been substituted by copper, which you use on a daily basis at the corner store.

http://www.coinflation.com/coins/1965-2007-Washington-Quarter-Value.html

[Ares]

I have to correct you on this. Historically this is not quite accurate. Ancient Byzantium issued gold coins known as Bezants that were never debased, and were used as money for over 700 years, longer than the Byzantium empire existed. Their money was of such good repute, the Bezant commanded a premium over other contemporary gold coins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezant

I stand corrected... My apologies about my previous comment. I need to read more into the Byzantium empire, I hadn't previously studied them. Thanks for the correction.

[Serpo]

if this is so easy i know a code writer an a tech guy they travel the world setting of stuff then why cant i made something called mickcoin an sell them if it this easy

Why not back your Mickcoins with err SILVER ,,,, or do you want me to do it .

Sheesh ,how many coins can you make ..........

1 kilo of silver is equal to say 1000 grams.

From 1000gms you could divided each gram into whatever ,say 10,000.

So 1000 times 10,000 equals 10 million

So take 10kilos and thats 100million mickcoins valued at whatever the 10 k is worth.

Then one day they become popular and so you add another 10ks of silver which should double the price of them .

Why make cryptos based on nothing at all when you could just as easily back them by silver.

Its really only a matter of how much silver you got to back your currency.

You cant send silver over the internet in instant money transactions EVER and NEVER.

The only way to do this could be with Micoin (mickcoin)or Silcoin(silvercoin)

Take the best from both worlds ,the old and the new......the old was silver......the new is crypto (we will just forget about fiat as if it never happened) add them together and you get a mining /hashing / encryption internet transaction but on a coin entirely based on silver ,real physical silver. Redeem these coins for silver or fiat.

There Ive invented a global crypto currency ..............this forum could probably set it up in fact if we wanted too......................

I can see it now.................SILCOIN the only crypto currency redeemable in 100% pure physical silver.

Every other currency out there is based on nothing at all ,think about it .

A lot of what these cryptos worth is based basically on the encryption and method of delivery and secruity.

Then eventually all this encryption currency will become blase and people will want their crypto to be backed by something REAL.

Cryptos are weird at the moment but people can trust a crypto based on the fact it has a nice dog picture on the coin or for whatever reason,but the time will come when some people will prefer the coin based on physical silver say.

Those people who want to go with the cute doggie face coin can still do that,others may want to go with the silver backed one.What Im trying to say is that in the future people are going to have a choice perhaps of what type of currency they would prefer to use in transactions...................


And the best part ,,,,people would have to start mining silver on their computers............it would be a new SILVER RUSH..............

[Serpo]

The number of alt crypto's that are out there. That's proof enough that it is easy. But they all employ the same method that Satoshi solved. Which was the issue of double spending, and counterfeit counter measures using advanced cryptography with a reversible hash.

The not so easy part is market adoption. Since it's not centralized and there are no bullshit legal tender laws. You have to provide a reason why someone would want to buy / sell, and use mickcoins. The other altcoins are struggling with that same issue. They do not offer anything different than what Bitcoin already does. So why mine it, buy it, or even use it?

First mover advantage - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-mover_advantage

Quark is running on its added layers of encryption basically and its able to be mined on home computers,unlike bitcoin.
They have to add one million Quarks a year so people keep mining for them and if no one is mining for them then the whole transaction system breaks down.

People mining the coins are really registering transactions and activity in Quark (or whatever coin) and get paid something to do this.

I got into these coins more in a small way so I could understand them more,good or bad.

Here is my logo entry in the competition they had going ,what do you think................








http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3744/11347661153_449a9476bc_n.jpg







http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3744/11347661153_449a9476bc_q.jpghttp://quarktalk.com/index.php?p=/discussion/3/quark-logo-contest-120000-00-qrk-pledged/p10

[Serpo]

My entry is based on the flower of life symbol. This is an ancient symbol found all over the world from ancient times.

I got interested in this design a week or so before I heard about the logo competition. After I heard about the competition I remembered the flower of life symbol and looked for a Q in it.

Now I see why it is called the flower of life.

My designed has evolved and evolved and still is .

I read on a forum where they were saying it would be good to have lines running through the logo coin design so someone in India could recognise it as money.
I have put them on an angle and not straight up and down but they could be straight up and down.
This pattern has lines running through it naturally.

Then I read where people are saying it would be good to keep the old symbol somehow. Low and behold, there it as well in the pattern also. This was one of the last things I found and implemented.

Plus the letter Q is found naturally within the design as well as a six sided hexagon shape.

There are many circles representing coins.

Pyramid shapes with the star in the centre, unlike the American dollar with their eye at the top of a pyramid and separated, denoting elite control and separation.

This pyramid is intact with the star in the middle of six pyramids representing people power.

There are curves (female) and straight lines (male) in the design giving balance.

The colours used are related to the feng shui of wealth creating.

Purple was a colour of nobility once as the dye was very expensive to make. I toned this colour down to mauve.

Green has a well-known association with money or wealth, greenbacks for instance. This was made a light green colour that blends well with the mauve.

The red was also toned down so all the colours look better together.
Red is a good activator in small amounts.
Red is colour of luck to the Chinese and courage and passion in the west.

White is the colour of purity and innocence
Its energy is crisp, clear, clean and fresh. White is the colour of beginnings, as well as clear endings or that belongs to the element of Metal. Its energy is crisp, clear, clean and fresh.
It will also fill your subconscious with the energy of ever-expanding possibilities and a bright new future.

The colors can be changed .

In summary this design has lines running through it to represent “money”.

It is a round shape depicting a coin shape.

It has the old design “built in “

There is the six sided shape representing the hashing.

There is a natural Q embedded within the shape.

The star or flower in the centre points to the various corners of the world and has six petals.




I enjoyed creating this logo even though it took days and days of work and many hours I never got sick of looking at this symbol. I felt divinely inspired to create the logo this way. It also makes me think that Quark may have a bright future.

In the end I was over whelmed by the possibilities of this design and when I found the old logo in it as well, it took my breath away. I knew it was there from earlier but it was the last thing I decided to try and found that it improves the overall effect.

I think this design ,shapes ,colors ect can all be changed around and it will still be recognizable as the quark symbol.
It would be easy for a business to adopt a colour or variant shape and at the same time be able to tell that it is quark.

web site about flower of life pattern..........

http://www.sacred-geometry.es/en/content/flower-life (http://www.sacred-geometry.es/en/content/flower-life)

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/geometria_sagrada/esp_geometria_sagrada_4.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/geometria_sagrada/esp_geometria_sagrada_4.htm)

http://thespiritscience.net/spirit/flower-of-life/ (http://thespiritscience.net/spirit/flower-of-life/)

http://quarktalk.com/index.php?p=/discussion/3/quark-logo-contest-120000-00-qrk-pledged/p10

[EE_]

How To Steal Bitcoins In Three Easy Steps
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 12/21/2013 18:58 -0500

Over the past several months, Bitcoins have soared in popularity, acceptance and price. Naturally, it was only a matter of time before Bitcoin crime followed. As reported here previously, earlier this month, the largest heist in the history of Bitcoin was pulled off when the illegal drug bazaar Sheep Marketplace was plundered, either by hackers or insiders, and about $100 million worth of the currency was stolen from customers.

That was only the most recent heist however: the reality is that Bitcoin theft has been around for years. In June of 2011, a user named Allinvain was the victim of what is arguably the first recorded major Bitcoin theft. As The Verge reports, "Allinvain awoke to find that a hacker had stolen about half a million dollars’ worth of bitcoins. “I feel like killing myself now,” he wrote at the time."

Outright robbery is not the only crime plaguing the new digital currency, as more sophisticated thefts have emerged including ponzi schemes:

The supposedly high-return investment fund Bitcoin Savings & Trust turned out to be a pyramid scheme, its owner charged with ripping off investors for $4.5 million in bitcoins. MyBitcoin, a “wallet” service that stored bitcoins like a bank account, disappeared with about $1 million worth of users’ bitcoins. Several of the most trusted and well-known Bitcoin companies, including the Mt. Gox and the now-defunct Bitcoinica exchanges, have also suffered high-profile thefts.



Victims of credit card theft can cancel a card or reverse fraudulent transactions, but Bitcoin is attractive to thieves because its transactions are irreversible. “Bitcoin is like cash,” says Nicolas Christin, an assistant research professor at Carnegie Mellon University who has done extensive analysis of Bitcoin. “The only way to get it back is by tracking you down and basically beating you up with a lead pipe.”

So it appears that despite the advent of the digital, hard physical objects - like lead pipes - still rule supreme.

But going back to Bitcoin is, where the vast majority still aren't exactly clear what the fiat currency alternative actually is, it’s difficult to understand exactly how digital theft works. What are you stealing, exactly? And once you’ve got it, what do you do with it?





The Verge provides the explanation on how to steal Bitcoins in three easy steps:



1. Copying the keys

There is no such thing as a Bitcoin. The virtual currency is nothing more than a public ledger system, called the blockchain, that keeps track of an ever-expanding list of addresses, and how many units of bitcoin are at those addresses.

If you own Bitcoin, what you actually own is the private cryptographic key to unlock a specific address. The private key looks like a long string of numbers and letters. You may choose to store your key, or keys if you have multiple addresses, in a number of places including a paper printout, a metal coin, a hard drive, an online service, or a tattoo on your body.

All methods can be protected with various levels of security, but all methods are vulnerable to theft since the robbery simply depends on gaining access to the string. “I recommend creating physical paper wallets using an Arch Linux boot which has never been online,” says Marak Squires, an early Bitcoin adopter who is developing a secure Bitcoin bank. “Unfortunately, this is not an option for most people. For the average user there are no good options right now to securely store cryptocurrencies.”

The most lucrative attacks are carried out on online services that store the private keys for a large number of users, as Sheep Marketplace did. It seems these attacks are often carried out by insiders who don’t have to do much hacking at all. Just copy the database of private keys and you can gain control of the bitcoins at all those addresses. You, the thief, can now spend those bitcoins whenever you want, as long as the owner doesn’t move them first.

2. Getting away with it

While Bitcoin has some features that make it great for thieves, it also has some features that make it not so great. The fact that the blockchain is public means that anyone can see to which address the coins were transferred next. After the Sheep Marketplace heist, some users tracked the thief as he or she moved the stolen coins from address to address.

This tracking technique isn’t very helpful for the time being, since the thief’s identity is still unknown. However, Bitcoin forensics is getting better and better as programmers figure out new ways to extract information from the blockchain. A thief may leave traces that are undetectable now but could be uncovered in the future, inspiring a retroactive investigation.

That’s why this step, money laundering, is so important. Laundering Bitcoin is done with “mixers,” also called “tumblers,” which randomly crisscross your bitcoins with other users’ bitcoins so that you get a clean address that the blockchain cannot connect with any of the addresses from which the coins were stolen.

Most of the time it works basically like this: you transfer your stolen bitcoins to a new address owned by the Bitcoin tumbler. That address is still “dirty” because there is a clear path from the victim’s address, so the tumbler leaves the coins there. The tumbler makes a note to transfer the same amount of bitcoins from other users to a new “clean” address owned by you. But it doesn’t make the transfer right away. Anyone watching would probably notice if the same exact amount of bitcoins — say, 96.1 — were moved into a new address, so the tumbler has you withdraw your coins over time in smaller amounts. When you request 10 bitcoins, the tumbler will transfer 10 bitcoins to your clean address. Extra-careful tumblers may also split these payouts further, especially if it is a noticeably large number of bitcoins.

Over time, the tumbler will sip bitcoins from the “dirty” addresses in order to replenish the pool. By the time your dirty address gets tapped, you’re long gone. The tumbler is only accessible through the anonymizing Tor network, making it difficult for law enforcement to trace traffic to it or discover the people behind it.

Of course, that also means you have to trust the tumbler. “Caution: Mixing services may themselves be operating with anonymity. As such, if the mixing output fails to be delivered or access to funds is denied there is no recourse. Use at your own discretion,” reads the Bitcoin wiki.

Another option is to launder the money the way the mob might: spend it at Satoshi Dice or another Bitcoin casino.

3. Get rich

Now you’ve got clean bitcoins — hopefully a lot of them! — and you’ve got your eye on a villa in the south of France. Unfortunately, the landlord doesn’t accept Bitcoin. Like most merchants in the world, she wants a government-sanctioned currency, preferably the euro.

So now you’ve got to convert your bitcoins to euros. But you’ve got a lot of bitcoins. If you’re the owner of Sheep Marketplace, you’ve got $100 millions’ worth. The Bitcoin economy is still tiny and relatively illiquid — there aren’t many buyers who could cash you out for that much Bitcoin all in one sale, and a transaction of that size would surely raise alarms. It also becomes much harder to conceal your identity when you exchange Bitcoin for other currencies. Most exchanges require some type of identifying information, and at the very least you need an account into which the euros can be deposited.

It’s time to get creative. There are several ways you can unload a lot of Bitcoin while maintaining your anonymity. Find a rich buyer who is willing to take the bitcoins without verifying your identity in exchange for a discount on the price, for example. However, the best way to protect yourself is to remain patient. Unload your bitcoins in a series of transactions over weeks, ideally months or even years, in order to avoid arousing suspicion from those watching the blockchain as well as real-life authorities that might wonder how you suddenly came into millions of dollars.

[Horn]

The above post is the reason for Bitcoins testbed release to the public via DARPA.

Thieves are far more creative in their art than any advanced defense engineer could ever imagine.

Let the crowd decide the best way to implement safeguards against, then come out with your legal tender versions.

[singular_me]

not surprised to read this

people who think that Bitcoin is going to save the day are misled. Everything is an elite plot/conspiracy. As long as we can't find a way to get rid of them, pipe dreams will follow one another.

[Ares]

not surprised to read this

people who think that Bitcoin is going to save the day are misled. Everything is an elite plot/conspiracy. As long as we can't find a way to get rid of them, pipe dreams will follow one another.

I pose the same question to you as everyone else. How do you control a decentralized system of volunteer Peer To Peer nodes? They haven't been able to control the Bit Torrent protocol, or torrent sites in general due to its decentralized nature.

Sooner or later you guys are going to have to realize that the elite are not omnipotent, or omnipresent. They are flesh and blood human beings and as such are not capable of controlling every thing that exist. Stop giving them power they do not have.

[Horn]

I pose the same question to you as everyone else. How do you control a decentralized system of volunteer Peer To Peer nodes? They haven't been able to control the Bit Torrent protocol, or torrent sites in general due to its decentralized nature.

Sooner or later you guys are going to have to realize that the elite are not omnipotent, or omnipresent. They are flesh and blood human beings and as such are not capable of controlling every thing that exist. Stop giving them power they do not have.

On a deeper level they do not need or want to stop en mass Bit Torrent,

its the spoonful of sugar that increases market presence in emerging "to be" controlled markets.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S3WBDajLo8

[Ares]

On a deeper level they do not need or want to stop en mass Bit Torrent,


The number of claims the RIAA makes, the number of sites they go after. Lobbying ISP's to institute a 3 strikes rule before they cut off their own users. Yet they don't want to stop Bit Torrent?

It looks to me, at least on the surface they go after bit torrent users, and the uploaders of copyrighted content pretty regularly and aggressively. Just this past week the pirate bay changed its domain at least 5 times.

They are fighting a losing battle with a legacy top down control matrix.

[Horn]

It looks to me, at least on the surface they go after bit torrent users, and the uploaders of copyrighted content pretty regularly and aggressively. Just this past week the pirate bay changed its domain at least 5 times.

They are fighting a losing battle with a legacy top down control matrix.

I don't wanna have to go HT on your ass,

and explain how you're watching competing jesters fight over entertainment rights to make the king's court.

[Ares]

I don't wanna have to go HT on your ass,

and explain how you're watching competing jesters fight over entertainment rights to make the king's court.

lol, yeah I'd appreciate not hearing how the top sucks off the bottom spiel. But the technology of decentralization is only just a decade old. It's giving people ideas on how to conduct business, share content, and work in a completely decentralized way. I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride and hoping that it succeeds in its potential to kick the pedestal out from under the top and they are left hanging with their own noose.

[Horn]

Any self righteous King would collapse a system before it has a chance to collapse him.

Then just sit back and wait to see what big fish grows that is large enough that he can eat.

Perhaps the current reign isn't righteous enough?

[EE_]

lol, yeah I'd appreciate not hearing how the top sucks off the bottom spiel. But the technology of decentralization is only just a decade old. It's giving people ideas on how to conduct business, share content, and work in a completely decentralized way. I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride and hoping that it succeeds in its potential to kick the pedestal out from under the top and they are left hanging with their own noose.

Enjoying the weather Ares? Did you see our home team made the play-off's today

[Ares]

Enjoying the weather Ares? Did you see our home team made the play-off's today

Yeah yesterday was a pretty warm day. Got up to 71 degree's here. Took our daughter to a neighboring town to go see the Christmas lights. She had a good time.

[singular_me]

I see nothing wrong with what you are saying, Ares... yes decentralization is key to unroot them.

the slavery system structure is as old as mankind, it didnt start with the Rothschild, Rockefeller, etc. They just incarnate the paramount of an exponential evil. There is nothing we can do but help the global system collapse faster and be ready to rebuild it from scratch.

This is a "mind over matter" battle... Those who think it can just be reformed, that the implementation of PMs standard, or even Bitcoin, will suffice are just deluded, IMHO


I pose the same question to you as everyone else. How do you control a decentralized system of volunteer Peer To Peer nodes? They haven't been able to control the Bit Torrent protocol, or torrent sites in general due to its decentralized nature.

Sooner or later you guys are going to have to realize that the elite are not omnipotent, or omnipresent. They are flesh and blood human beings and as such are not capable of controlling every thing that exist. Stop giving them power they do not have.

[Ares]

This is a "mind over matter" battle... Those who think it can just be reformed, that the implementation of PMs standard, or even Bitcoin, will suffice are just deluded, IMHO

So you go against your previous thread of promoting a new paradigm by stating those of us who are working towards implementing a new paradigm are "deluded" got it.

[Horn]

Horn will not stand for any new paradigms promoting a cloudy perspective on intrinsic value combined into utility.

that's the same old "derivative boss" story of connect the dots.

Ares, rock and roll singer Cinderella.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p0m2E7eQKA

[Ares]

That's because you're deluded into thinking a medium of exchange must have intrinsic value. When history has shown that governments, and private institutions game that intrinsic value for their own benefit.

But go ahead, keep promoting time tested, and history proven failures. I'm sure it will work out well in the end. :rolleyes:

[Horn]

But go ahead, keep promoting time tested, and history proven failures. I'm sure it will work out well in the end. :rolleyes:

Aristotle was free with the intrinsic value of his silver coinage.

Ben and bitcoins luv internet incursion and liability.


http://21stcenturywire.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Bitcoin-ben-bernanke.jpg

Is easier to end a game then end end a controlled medium.

[singular_me]

I dont think money itself is a new paradigm :) The new paradigm is HOW we regard money.


So you go against your previous thread of promoting a new paradigm by stating those of us who are working towards implementing a new paradigm are "deluded" got it.

[singular_me]

Id rather view money as a time device...

however, I think to understand Gold money as a medium of exchange, we have to go back into time... The elites have managed to make us believe that IT IS a medium of exchange, so we'd fight to teeth for it and it has always benefited them... there is a story that it is NOT being told here. The medium of exchange (exoteric) argument is the tip of the iceberg, something that anybody could agree on... but the hidden part of the iceberg (esoteric) cannot be ignored.


That's because you're deluded into thinking a medium of exchange must have intrinsic value. When history has shown that governments, and private institutions game that intrinsic value for their own benefit.

But go ahead, keep promoting time tested, and history proven failures. I'm sure it will work out well in the end. :rolleyes:

[Horn]

Id rather view money as a time device...

however, I think to understand Gold as a medium of exchange, we have to go back into time... The elites have managed to make us believe that IT IS a medium of exchange, so we'd fight to teeth for it... there is a story that it is NOT being told here.

Nothing stands the test of time better than Gold. Bitcoins are tulip bulbs among the strawberry fields of forgetfulness.

Any thing that was done with violence has a choice of being done with work over time.

A dovetail joint takes much time and work.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He2EZ6-VOOk

[Ares]

Nothing stands the test of time better than Gold. Bitcoins are tulip bulbs among the strawberry fields of forgetfulness.

Any thing that was done with violence has a choice of being done with work over time.

A dovetail joint takes much time and work.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He2EZ6-VOOk

You're completely delusional Horn. But there's no stopping that is there?

Here's your "Intrinsic Value" being passed up for 25 FRN's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndshbH3qZ6Y

So much for that universal intrinsic value eh? There are COUNTLESS videos of Mark Dice trying to GIVE AWAY "intrinsic value". But you don't get it do you? Value is only derived by what other people will give you for it. If people won't even take a 1k+ gold coin for free or 25 Frn's does it really have "intrinsic value"?

[Horn]

There's delusional with regards to the point of not realizing, then there's delusional to the point of requesting inflicted pain over and over again.

Such the case is in your insistence that money does not require intrinsic (value to itself in the real world), as I constantly and repeatedly spank it into your rosy colored and Cinderella bottom...

[Ares]

There's delusional with regards to the point of not realizing, the there's delusional to the point of requesting inflicted pain over and over again.

Such the case is in your insistence that money does not require intrinsic (value to itself in the real world), as I repeatedly spank it into your rosy Cinderella bottom...

uh huh, sure. Still can't explain how an item according to you has "intrinsic value" (i.e. it's universal and everyone accepts it as such) cannot be sold for less, or given away?

The only thing you "spank" is your own stupid theory of intrinsic value. "Money" can be anything 2 people agree upon as a medium of exchange. If I shovel your driveway for 3 chickens, that would have no value to anyone else outside of the parties in that exchange. But I like eggs, and see the value of keeping chickens so I can have eggs every couple of days during nesting season.

[Horn]

But I like eggs, and see the value of keeping chickens so I can have eggs every couple of days during nesting season.

Not only do you like eggs, Ares.

if the world were gone and nothing but glass, they (your eggs) would keep you alive. The intrinsic value you fail to see.

Your hope that I will forgive your blindness, will not levy my heavy hand. no sympathy found here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lZ5mIh0vLU

[Ares]

Not only do you like eggs, Ares.

if the world were gone and nothing but glass, they (your eggs) would keep you alive. The intrinsic value you fail to see.

Your hope that I will forgive your blindness, will not levy my heavy hand. no sympathy found here.



I can eat the chicken and the egg's. That's the value, but I can't eat gold. If food is scarce, I will not accept gold or silver for my food stuffs because they WILL NOT MATTER.

Food, shelter, and clothing. The 3 basic needs of human survival have intrinsic value.

[singular_me]

intrinsic value is always subjective... it is the perception (enthusiasm or negativity) that gives value. And even gold cannot escape it... mind over matter, remember?

all is an illusion... everything

[mick silver]

you guys need to stop fighting and sale every thing you can and buy ecoins there the new money made out of nothing , stop fighting it

[Horn]

all is an illusion... everything

Talk to me when you have no eggs to make for breakfast.

[Horn]

Food, shelter, and clothing. The 3 basic needs of human survival have intrinsic value.

We went over this before how the ageless gold will afford you a fishing lure or easily malleable spear to for some rudimentary tool.

You can also wear gold as an effective insulator clothing no matter where you are, you spaceboy and reflector adviser.

5859

Go wear your Bitcoins on the moon, Ares...

5860

or while you're bouncing on stage with Beyonce's nipple jumpsuit, Rockstar.

[mick silver]

horn when you cant buy a egg because you dont have any ecoins i am going to say i told you so

[Ares]

We went over this before how the ageless gold will afford you a fishing lure or easily malleable spear to for some rudimentary tool.

You can also wear gold as an effective insulator clothing no matter where you are, you spaceboy and reflector adviser.

5859

Go wear your Bitcoins on the moon, Ares...

5860

or while you're bouncing on stage with Beyonce's nipple jumpsuit, Rockstar.

As the Mark Dice video previously posted earlier, you're no better off than the ecoins. If Mark can't fucking give a gold coin away what makes you think you're going to trade anything of value with it?

You and Mick need to wake the fuck up. People don't hold gold or silver as anything of value. If they did people would jump on Mark Dice's offer, and there wouldn't be cash for gold stands on every corner in every city in the U.S.

[mick silver]

mark not meet the right m f...er . there some people that dont know there alive also ...... when i said this it had nothing to do with you at all . if he was to hand me a coin i will take it you can bet your life on that

[Horn]

If Mark can't fucking give a gold coin away what makes you think you're going to trade anything of value with it?

You and Mick need to wake the fuck up. People don't hold gold or silver as anything of value.

Mark was contemplating with his clients to walk 50ft. to someone who knew better what value they were receiving.

Had he taken the time to form it into 500 ear ring sets, he'd have been even better off than walking 50ft.

Bad communication on his part, added to laziness.

[mick silver]

ares your a nasty mother fucker

[Ares]

mark not meet the right m f...er . there some people that dont know there alive also

Everyone, here is the PERFECT example of being fucking delusional. Here you and Horn are preaching the value of gold and silver. But if you can't give the shit away unless he "meets the right people" how the hell are you ever going to get a new monetary system in place when no one recognizes the "intrinsic value" but you and apparently a few of the "right people"?

Fucking delusional, let me know when I can come visit in never never land when I need a break from reality. :rolleyes:

[Ares]

ares your a nasty mother fucker

Reality is a bitch isn't it?

[Horn]

5861

I think it was probably Ares at the time who stated "those people are idiots"

Now he's here doing the same.

[Ares]

Mark was contemplating with his clients to walk 50ft. to someone who knew better what value they were receiving.

Had he taken the time to form it into 500 ear ring sets, he'd have been even better off than walking 50ft.

Bad communication on his part, added to laziness.

No, it's the people, the VERY people you and I depend on any medium of exchange having "intrinsic value". It's a perfect example of your fallacy of "intrinsic value". I mean if it was "intrinsic" people would know it right? It would be universally accepted and regarded as value right? That video just proves beyond a doubt that gold doesn't have intrinsic value and it's value is determined like everything else. THE FREE MARKET. You and I would of jumped on a 1K gold coin for 25 FRN's. But the VAST MAJORITY of people will not, because they do not see it as valuable.

[mick silver]

to start with you need something more then a computer that fast . you own no bitcoins you said this so why in the fuck do you caree what i post . and if i was betting i bet you dont have a silver dime to your name ... and you have said this i have NO bitcoins

[Horn]

That video just proves beyond a doubt that gold doesn't have intrinsic value and it's value is determined like everything else. .

No that video only proves that people do not like being solicited on a public street, and that his extremely low price for such intrinsic value was filtered through as the bullshit it was.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdfOqPhV3jY

[Ares]

No that video only proves that people do not like being solicited on a public street, and that his extremely low price for such intrinsic value was filtered through as the bullshit it was.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdfOqPhV3jY

In the real world, that's called speculation on your part.

[Horn]

In the real world, that's called speculation on your part.

Ha, my speculation is only eclipsed on board by yours...!

[Ares]

to start with you need something more then a computer that fast . you own no bitcoins you said this so why in the fuck do you caree what i post . and if i was betting i bet you dont have a silver dime to your name ... and you have said this i have NO bitcoins

No I said I haven't profited from Bitcoins. Reading and COMPREHENSION seem to be a sticking point for you. Reading is one thing, and COMPREHENDING what you just read is entirely different.

Go out right now and just prove it to yourself Mick. Go out to anyone on the street and try to sell a mercury dime for it's silver weight and let me know how it works out for you.

Stick your intrinsic value straight up your ass. Because your intrinsic value doesn't mean shit in the real world when the vast majority of the people have no fucking idea what the value of silver and gold is.

But by all means, keep thinking hording gold and silver is going to be a savior while the elite manipulate the price for their own benefit. Keep licking the masters hands, and calling yourself "free thinking". Whatever helps you sleep at night bud.

[Ares]

Ha, my speculation is only eclipsed on board by yours...!

Go and prove it to yourself Horn. Go out and try to sell a mercury dime for the silver content. Or even a Krugerrand for the current spot price. Let me know how many offers you get. :rolleyes:

It's "intrinsic" you should be able to sell them within 5 minutes right? :rolleyes:

[mick silver]

is there something wrong with you , i dont give a fuck , what part dont you seam to understand . you buy what you want , i buy what i want , but my say on this forum as good as your , so do you understand . if i am typing to fast let me know . i dont care what you buy again . oh by the way do people under stand them ecoin fucker . you started this nasty shit and i can play all day fucker

[Horn]

CrackerJack and Ares, Wooden nickel depression speculative coin list too long to post here

http://coinmarketcap.com/
....

[Horn]

Go and prove it to yourself Horn. Go out and try to sell a mercury dime for the silver content. Or even a Krugerrand for the current spot price. Let me know how many offers you get. :rolleyes:

It's "intrinsic" you should be able to sell them within 5 minutes right? :rolleyes:

No sympathy for the ill, even when only seeing spots.

[mick silver]

yep told you so
No I said I haven't profited from Bitcoins. Reading and COMPREHENSION seem to be a sticking point for you. Reading is one thing, and COMPREHENDING what you just read is entirely different.

Go out right now and just prove it to yourself Mick. Go out to anyone on the street and try to sell a mercury dime for it's silver weight and let me know how it works out for you.

Stick your intrinsic value straight up your ass. Because your intrinsic value doesn't mean shit in the real world when the vast majority of the people have no fucking idea what the value of silver and gold is.

But by all means, keep thinking hording gold and silver is going to be a savior while the elite manipulate the price for their own benefit. Keep licking the masters hands, and calling yourself "free thinking". Whatever helps you sleep at night bud.

[Ares]

is there something wrong with you , i dont give a fuck , what part dont you seam to understand . you buy what you want , i buy what i want , but my say on this forum as good as your , so do you understand . if i am typing to fast let me know . i dont care what you buy again . oh by the way do they under stand them ecoin fucker

Nothing wrong with me. I can read and comprehend just fine. You're typing so fast that your sentences are broken and fragmented. Tisk tisk tisk, someone is flustered. Having your delusions pointed out for what they are is a pretty tough pill to swallow. I had to do that myself when I realized gold and silver weren't going to save me because of the vast amounts of fraud and manipulation. Not to mention 90% of it locked away in globalist vaults.


Now run along BOY, the master is tugging at your chains he needs some boots licked.

[Ares]

yep told you so

LOL Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night. BOY

[mick silver]

again never ............... said ................ gold ....... an ......... silver .... would ... save ... anyone ... is . that . slow . enough, ... but i told you so

[Ares]

again never ............... said ................ gold ....... an ......... silver .... would ... save ... anyone ... is . that . slow . enough, ... but i told you so

LOL so what gives them value? Why keep it? Why try to use it?

And what exactly did you tell me? You've never detailed that you told me anything. Just using the childish "told you so" with no details really doesn't tell me or anyone anything.

But from you, I'd expect nothing less. :)

[mick silver]

the only thing that can save someone would be there self . and not living in a big city may help .... and take this to the bank , i told you so

[madfranks]

Ares - horn is just trolling you, for laughs. Mick believes in gold and silver, like we all do in comparison to fiat. Crypto-currencies are a hard thing for people to understand, hell I've been trying to explain it to my folks but they simply don't get it. At this point on the forum I believe there's enough info posted here so that anyone who is really interested can learn enough to figure it out.

And while it's commonly said that gold and silver have intrinsic value, it is always superseded by what people will actually pay for it. If someone offers you $500 for an oz of gold, that is its value, to that person. If someone offers you $1500 for one oz, that is its value to him. In the exact same way, if someone is willing to pay $700 for one digital bitcoin, that is its value to that person, no matter what anyone else says.

[mick silver]

is ecoins:rolleyes: not digital also so what make them better


Yet these jokers are perfectly happy and content accepting digital FRN's...

Yeah Okay..if ecoins are digital also so what make them better

[Horn]

Ares - horn is just trolling you, for laughs.

What is so difficult for you numbskulls to understand about the statement "value unto itself = intrinsic value"?

So that there's an impossibility of it ever reaching the value of 0, Money by definition should not reach the value 0. Paper still having the ability to wipe your ass with, or fuel to light a fire.

A superseded value or otherwise speculated value has no bearing whatsoever in that denominator that is a common to anything called money. Bitcoin and E-coins are not money due to this fact. A currency or derivative possibly, but not money.

[mick silver]

mad this is what get me ok .... if someone is willing to pay $700 for one digital bitcoin, that is its value to that person, no matter what anyone else says. ... you said this bitcoins are digital so what make them any better then the paper i carry around an buy with , the people i give it to dont know me from jack shit in the woods , so why would i want them there both the same ... all i get from ares is a nasty mouth why there better

[Son-of-Liberty]

I have to agree with Ares and Madfranks on this.

The "intrinsic value" of precious metals is highly overstated.

PM's are useful in electronics, catalytic converters, some medical uses, but 90% of their value is based on perception.

What do gold and silver coins or bullion actually do for you? Nothing really. They sit in a safe or hiding place. They don't earn interest. They don't perform work for you.

Food, fuel, shelter, clothing, ammunition, land, vehicles. Have real intrinsic value. They can sustain you, keep you warm or cool, perform work for you.

The value of PM's is based more on the perception of value then actual value. This is why the bankers can use paper games to manipulate the price. They change the perception of the value of PM's with paper and the people selling PM's change their prices based on this perception.

It's a harsh reality, it sucks, but that is the way it is.

Money is simply what two or more people are willing to agree to accept in exchange.

The Mark Dice video is proof that not everyone is willing to take gold as a medium of exchange.

Crypto currency is an agreed upon medium for a growing number of people.

[mick silver]

i bought a 100 ac of land with gold so you tell me what again . payed around 300an oz for the gold , did i miss something

[singular_me]

exactly what I says here in a short sentence

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?74793-Bitcoin-Was-Created-By-DARPA&p=682417&viewfull=1#post682417

This shows the power of the Mind.



I have to agree with Ares and Madfranks on this.

The "intrinsic value" of precious metals is highly overstated.

PM's are useful in electronics, catalytic converters, some medical uses, but 90% of their value is based on perception.

What do gold and silver coins or bullion actually do for you? Nothing really. They sit in a safe or hiding place. They don't earn interest. They don't perform work for you.

Food, fuel, shelter, clothing, ammunition, land, vehicles. Have real intrinsic value. They can sustain you, keep you warm or cool, perform work for you.

The value of PM's is based more on the perception of value then actual value. This is why the bankers can use paper games to manipulate the price. They change the perception of the value of PM's with paper and the people selling PM's change their prices based on this perception.

It's a harsh reality, it sucks, but that is the way it is.

Money is simply what two or more people are willing to agree to accept in exchange.

The Mark Dice video is proof that not everyone is willing to take gold as a medium of exchange.

Crypto currency is an agreed upon medium for a growing number of people.

[Horn]

The "intrinsic value" of precious metals is highly overstated.

PM's are useful in electronics, catalytic converters, some medical uses, but 90% of their value is based on perception.

Silver is unable to be brought out of the ground or recycled for anything less than the $17 it costs currently.

Yet its overvalued, while Bitcoin has no value but as a derivative form of money that needs no intrinsic value to operate as a savings device.

Money needs a value unto itself to be called money. E-coins are not money and cannot be saved from a value of 0

[Son-of-Liberty]

To address the OP.

I have briefly looked into the DARPA angle on Bitcoin and it has some merrit but Bitcoin is not exactly wht was layed out in the DARPA paper. It is quite possible someone with knowledge of the DARPA paper created Bitcoin and improved upon those ideas. It doesn't mean that the government is behind it.

Even if they have the keys to crack Bitcoin they have unleashed a monster that will destroy them. There are so many alternatives to Bitcoin now that I know for sure are not government ops that they have to compete with. Good luck with that. Only tyrannical regulation that would show them for the tyrants they are would be enough to stop adoption by the public.

[Ares]

mad this is what get me ok .... if someone is willing to pay $700 for one digital bitcoin, that is its value to that person, no matter what anyone else says. ... you said this bitcoins are digital so what make them any better then the paper i carry around an buy with , the people i give it to dont know me from jack shit in the woods , so why would i want them there both the same ... all i get from ares is a nasty mouth why there better

You get returned what you spit out Mick. Calling me a fucker and mother fucker isn't going to have me respond with the respect and admiration that I do have for you.

No where did I state Cryptos were better. They are a tool. I just pointed out that the gold and silver you use is subject to the same market mechanics as everything else. Its a tool that COULD be used to throw off our chains, it has that potential. Whether it happens or is realized I just state the potential, and try to show the value of said tool. I love gold and silver and hope to acquire more.

[mick silver]

big boy you are the one that started the fuck you shit go back an look dont troll me boy. again you started the nasty mouth stuff . plus i dont care what you buy are hold , thats what make whats left of the once great country good . it non on my biz what you hold . if you dont hold it what was it never mind

[Son-of-Liberty]

Silver is unable to be brought out of the ground or recycled for anything less than the $17 it costs currently.

Yet its overvalued, while Bitcoin has no value but as a derivative form of money that needs no intrinsic value to operate as a savings device.

Money needs a value unto itself to be called money. E-coins are not money and cannot be saved from a value of 0

I never said that silver was overvalued I said that 90% of the value of PM's is perception. I suppose I should have been more specific and just said Gold because Silver is more of an industrial metal. Gold is generally just used as a store of value or a hedge against inflation. There is already so much above ground gold that you could stop mining it today and the stockpiles we already have would probably cover industrial use for a century.

In the case of Gold it is mainly just used for jewellery and bullion which other then looking pretty serves no function at all.

Just because something costs a certain amount to produce does not mean that it has a functional use.

I can dig up a bunch of rocks and say that it costs $20 a ton to dig up these rocks but if there is nobody buying them it doesn't matter what it costs me to produce the rocks, they have no value until someone wants them.

[EE_]

To most people, a key thing determining the value of something is 'rising prices'.

When gold was climbing in price, everyone was starting to look at it as a valuable item. Once price fell, interest fell.

Same thing with homes and the stock market.

People buy a lot of things they think will cost more in the future. People don't buy things they see falling in price.

If bitcoin price were to keep dropping, interest in them would fall too.

All that really matters to most people, are rising prices.

[Ares]

big boy you are the one that started the fuck you shit go back an look dont troll me boy. again you started the nasty mouth stuff . plus i dont care what you buy are hold , thats what make whats left of the once great country good . it non on my biz what you hold . if you dont hold it what was it never mind

That reading and comprehension again. Where did I say fuck you Mick? Please point that out because I'll retract it. The only thing I said was wake the fuck up. I never said fuck you, or called you a fucker or mother fucker. You better look again. boy

[singular_me]

doom comes along with rising prices... the only game in town/universe is the zero-sum game.... in other words, stay neutral/balanced or endure irrational exuberance




To most people, a key thing determining the value of something is 'rising prices'.

When gold was climbing in price, everyone was starting to look at it as a valuable item. Once price fell, interest fell.

Same thing with homes and the stock market.

People buy a lot of things they think will cost more in the future. People don't buy things they see falling in price.

If bitcoin price were to keep dropping, interest in them would fall too.

All that really matters to most people, are rising prices.

[Son-of-Liberty]

To most people, a key thing determining the value of something is 'rising prices'.

When gold was climbing in price, everyone was starting to look at it as a valuable item. Once price fell, interest fell.

Same thing with homes and the stock market.

People buy a lot of things they think will cost more in the future. People don't buy things they see falling in price.

If bitcoin price were to keep dropping, interest in them would fall too.

All that really matters to most people, are rising prices.

I generally agree which is why the public is so easily manipulated and why they will never get ahead.

Even within crypto currencies you can see this phenomenon. Maybe 25% believe in them and see their value as a payment system and alternative to debt based money. They other 75% just want to make a quick buck.

[EE_]

I generally agree which is why the public is so easily manipulated and why they will never get ahead.

Even within crypto currencies you can see this phenomenon. Maybe 25% believe in them and see their value as a payment system and alternative to debt based money. They other 75% just want to make a quick buck.

There's a lot of people out there right now pushing the bitcoin story. "This is going to be very valuable someday and the price is going way higher..." There are people pusing it that you wouldn't expect and some you wouldn't have given the time of day. Bankers, CEO's etc. Seems like people are being manipulated.

[EE_]

doom comes along with rising prices... the only game in town/universe is the zero-sum game.... in other words, stay neutral/balanced or endure irrational exuberance

Doom only happens to people that are experiencing doom. I'm not sure we'll ever see abrupt mass scale doom?

[singular_me]

not that I entirely agree on what you say, BUT I can see this too, EE :(

[EE_]

If the NSA was tapped into your computer or cell phone, could they copy your code and password to steal your bitcoins?

The NSA's 50-Page Catalog Of Back Door Penetration Techniques Revealed
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 12/29/2013 15:39 -0500

While the world may have become habituated to (and perhaps revels in, thank you social media exhibitionist culture) the fact that the NSA is watching anyone and everyone, intercepting, recording, and hacking every electronic exchange regardless if it involves foreign "terrorists" or US housewives, the discoveries from the Snowden whistle-blowing campaign continue.

The latest revelation from the biggest wholesale spying scandal since Nixon, exposed by Germany's Spiegel which continues the strategy of revealing Snowden leaks on a staggered, delayed basis, involves a back door access-focused NSA division called ANT, (which supposedly stands for Access Network Technology), described by Spiegel as "master carpenters" for the NSA's TAO (Tailored Access Operations, read more about TAO here).

The ANT people have "burrowed into nearly all the security architecture made by the major players in the industry -- including American global market leader Cisco and its Chinese competitor Huawei, but also producers of mass-market goods, such as US computer-maker Dell." More importantly, thanks to Spiegel (and Snowden of course), the NSA's 50-page catalog of "backdoor penetration" techniques has been revealed.

The details of how the NSA can surmount any "erected" walls, via Spiegel:

These NSA agents, who specialize in secret back doors, are able to keep an eye on all levels of our digital lives -- from computing centers to individual computers, from laptops to mobile phones. For nearly every lock, ANT seems to have a key in its toolbox. And no matter what walls companies erect, the NSA's specialists seem already to have gotten past them.

This, at least, is the impression gained from flipping through the 50-page document. The list reads like a mail-order catalog, one from which other NSA employees can order technologies from the ANT division for tapping their targets' data. The catalog even lists the prices for these electronic break-in tools, with costs ranging from free to $250,000.

Nothing quite like an extensive, taxpayer funded catalog listing back-door entry strategy imaginable. Say you wanted to have some backdoor fun with Juniper Networks, the world's second largest network equipment manufacturer (which claims the performance of the company's special computers is "unmatched" and their firewalls are the "best-in-class.")

In the case of Juniper, the name of this particular digital lock pick is "FEEDTROUGH." This malware burrows into Juniper firewalls and makes it possible to smuggle other NSA programs into mainframe computers. Thanks to FEEDTROUGH, these implants can, by design, even survive "across reboots and software upgrades." In this way, US government spies can secure themselves a permanent presence in computer networks. The catalog states that FEEDTROUGH "has been deployed on many target platforms."

It gets better, because when simple penetration is not enough, the NSA adds "implants."

In cases where TAO's usual hacking and data-skimming methods don't suffice, ANT workers step in with their special tools, penetrating networking equipment, monitoring mobile phones and computers and diverting or even modifying data. Such "implants," as they are referred to in NSA parlance, have played a considerable role in the intelligence agency's ability to establish a global covert network that operates alongside the Internet.

So what exactly is to be found in the 50-page catalog?

Some of the equipment available is quite inexpensive. A rigged monitor cable that allows "TAO personnel to see what is displayed on the targeted monitor," for example, is available for just $30. But an "active GSM base station" -- a tool that makes it possible to mimic a mobile phone tower and thus monitor cell phones -- costs a full $40,000. Computer bugging devices disguised as normal USB plugs, capable of sending and receiving data via radio undetected, are available in packs of 50 for over $1 million.

The ANT division doesn't just manufacture surveillance hardware. It also develops software for special tasks. The ANT developers have a clear preference for planting their malicious code in so-called BIOS, software located on a computer's motherboard that is the first thing to load when a computer is turned on.

This has a number of valuable advantages: an infected PC or server appears to be functioning normally, so the infection remains invisible to virus protection and other security programs. And even if the hard drive of an infected computer has been completely erased and a new operating system is installed, the ANT malware can continue to function and ensures that new spyware can once again be loaded onto what is presumed to be a clean computer. The ANT developers call this "Persistence" and believe this approach has provided them with the possibility of permanent access.

Another program attacks the firmware in hard drives manufactured by Western Digital, Seagate, Maxtor and Samsung, all of which, with the exception of latter, are American companies. Here, too, it appears the US intelligence agency is compromising the technology and products of American companies.

Other ANT programs target Internet routers meant for professional use or hardware firewalls intended to protect company networks from online attacks. Many digital attack weapons are "remotely installable" -- in other words, over the Internet. Others require a direct attack on an end-user device -- an "interdiction," as it is known in NSA jargon -- in order to install malware or bugging equipment.

The conclusion here is an easy one, and one we have repeated ever since before the Snowden revelations: Big Brother is bigger and badder than ever, he knows exactly what you've been doing, and the second the NSA wants to nuke your computer out of orbit and/or destroy your digital life, it can do so in a millisecond. What is more amusing is that with each passing disclosure, it is increasingly clear that the NSA has gotten its inspiration for its dealings with the US public from a Danielle Steel book at best, or a Vivid Video bootlegged tape at worst.

[Horn]

All that really matters to most people, are rising prices.

If it were a battle for real intrinsic value Silver would be worth more than Gold as it has more practical uses. What makes precious metals precious, is that they can not be replaced to do certain duties, or work.

This is perfectly exemplified in comparison to Bitcoin's perceived finite nature. You can do the same thing they do with a host (and then some) of infinite numbers of others. Agreed value is subject to real intrinsic value, it is its maker.

You're all fiat. (Except for Mick, he's the real deal)

[madfranks]

What is so difficult for you numbskulls to understand about the statement "value unto itself = intrinsic value"?

So that there's an impossibility of it ever reaching the value of 0, Money by definition should not reach the value 0. Paper still having the ability to wipe your ass with, or fuel to light a fire.

A superseded value or otherwise speculated value has no bearing whatsoever in that denominator that is a common to anything called money. Bitcoin and E-coins are not money due to this fact. A currency or derivative possibly, but not money.

I won't argue your last point, but you say that gold cannot reach a value of 0. What about the people who are so ignorant they refuse a free gold coin? To them gold is worth 0. Now, regarding the fallacy of intrinsic value, I invite you to study up on the subject. The Austrian economists, those who champion the gold standard over government fiat, are the first to explain away the fallacy that anything has value unto itself. All value is subjective, bound by individual choice. Regarding gold, just look at the buy/sell markets: one man is willing to sell for $1200, another man not willing to sell until $1300. How can an item with "intrinsic value" have such different buy/sell prices? The answer is, that intrinsic value doesn't exist; all value is subjective.

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-fallacy-of-intrinsic-value#axzz2ouNPNYYF

Value: Historic vs. Intrinsic


There is a basic confusion here. The confusion rests on a mixing up of two very different proposi*tions: (1) gold and silver are his*torically valuable; and (2) gold and silver have intrinsic value. The first proposition is indisputably correct; in fact, there are few eco*nomic or historical statements that could be said to be more absolute. Professor Mises has built his whole theory of money on the fact that gold and silver (especially gold) were first valued because of properties other than their mone*tary function: brilliance, malle*ability, social prestige, and so forth. It was precisely because people valued these metals so highly that they were to become instruments of trade, i.e., money.4 Since they are so readily market*able, more so than other goods, they can become money.


Today we value silver and gold for many reasons, and on first glance, monetary purposes are not the main ones for most people. That is because so few populations are legally permitted to use gold in trade, and the statist policies of inflation have brought Gresham’s famous law into operation: silver coins have gone into hoards, since the value of their silver content is greater than their face value as coins. But on the international markets, gold has not yet been de*throned; governments and central banks do not always trust each other, but they do trust the historic value of gold.


Why this historic value? I do not want to involve myself in a rarefied philosophical debate con*cerning metaphysics, but I think it is safe to say that gold does have certain intrinsic qualities. It is highly durable, easily divisible, transportable, and most of all, it is scarce. Money must be all of these, to one degree or another, if it is to function as a means of ex*change. It is vital that we get our categories straight in our minds: it is not value that is intrinsic to gold, but only the physical prop*erties that are valued by acting men. Gold’s physical properties are the product of nature; its value is the product of acting men.


The Case for Gold


It would be a terrible mistake, however, to de-emphasize the his*toric value of gold and silver merely because they possess no in*trinsic value. That mistake is the one which the opponents of gold would have us make. They are equally guilty of mixing up the categories of intrinsic value and historic value, only they argue from the other direction. Conserva*tives appreciate the fact of gold’s historic value, but they mistakenly argue their case in terms of gold’s intrinsic value. Their opponents do not appreciate the argument from history, but they spend their time refuting the conservatives’ erro*neous presentation. They assume that because gold has no intrinsic value (true), gold’s historic value as a means of exchange is somehow invalidated. The two positions are diametrically opposed, yet they fo*cus on a common ground which is irrelevant to both positions; the conservatives do not help their case for gold by an appeal to intrinsic value, and gold’s opponents do not refute the case for gold by demon*strating the error of that appeal.






Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-fallacy-of-intrinsic-value#ixzz2oufUVwah

[mick silver]

well it started here ............ As the Mark Dice video previously posted earlier, you're no better off than the ecoins. If Mark can't fucking give a gold coin away what makes you think you're going to trade anything of value with it?

You and Mick need to wake the fuck up. People don't hold gold or silver as anything of value. If they did people would jump on Mark Dice's offer, and there wouldn't be cash for gold stands on every corner in every city in the U.

[mick silver]

what the hell are you talking about no one know how this works the goverment cant stop it
If the NSA was tapped into your computer or cell phone, could they copy your code and password to steal your bitcoins?

The NSA's 50-Page Catalog Of Back Door Penetration Techniques Revealed
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 12/29/2013 15:39 -0500

While the world may have become habituated to (and perhaps revels in, thank you social media exhibitionist culture) the fact that the NSA is watching anyone and everyone, intercepting, recording, and hacking every electronic exchange regardless if it involves foreign "terrorists" or US housewives, the discoveries from the Snowden whistle-blowing campaign continue.

The latest revelation from the biggest wholesale spying scandal since Nixon, exposed by Germany's Spiegel which continues the strategy of revealing Snowden leaks on a staggered, delayed basis, involves a back door access-focused NSA division called ANT, (which supposedly stands for Access Network Technology), described by Spiegel as "master carpenters" for the NSA's TAO (Tailored Access Operations, read more about TAO here).

The ANT people have "burrowed into nearly all the security architecture made by the major players in the industry -- including American global market leader Cisco and its Chinese competitor Huawei, but also producers of mass-market goods, such as US computer-maker Dell." More importantly, thanks to Spiegel (and Snowden of course), the NSA's 50-page catalog of "backdoor penetration" techniques has been revealed.

The details of how the NSA can surmount any "erected" walls, via Spiegel:

These NSA agents, who specialize in secret back doors, are able to keep an eye on all levels of our digital lives -- from computing centers to individual computers, from laptops to mobile phones. For nearly every lock, ANT seems to have a key in its toolbox. And no matter what walls companies erect, the NSA's specialists seem already to have gotten past them.

This, at least, is the impression gained from flipping through the 50-page document. The list reads like a mail-order catalog, one from which other NSA employees can order technologies from the ANT division for tapping their targets' data. The catalog even lists the prices for these electronic break-in tools, with costs ranging from free to $250,000.

Nothing quite like an extensive, taxpayer funded catalog listing back-door entry strategy imaginable. Say you wanted to have some backdoor fun with Juniper Networks, the world's second largest network equipment manufacturer (which claims the performance of the company's special computers is "unmatched" and their firewalls are the "best-in-class.")

In the case of Juniper, the name of this particular digital lock pick is "FEEDTROUGH." This malware burrows into Juniper firewalls and makes it possible to smuggle other NSA programs into mainframe computers. Thanks to FEEDTROUGH, these implants can, by design, even survive "across reboots and software upgrades." In this way, US government spies can secure themselves a permanent presence in computer networks. The catalog states that FEEDTROUGH "has been deployed on many target platforms."

It gets better, because when simple penetration is not enough, the NSA adds "implants."

In cases where TAO's usual hacking and data-skimming methods don't suffice, ANT workers step in with their special tools, penetrating networking equipment, monitoring mobile phones and computers and diverting or even modifying data. Such "implants," as they are referred to in NSA parlance, have played a considerable role in the intelligence agency's ability to establish a global covert network that operates alongside the Internet.

So what exactly is to be found in the 50-page catalog?

Some of the equipment available is quite inexpensive. A rigged monitor cable that allows "TAO personnel to see what is displayed on the targeted monitor," for example, is available for just $30. But an "active GSM base station" -- a tool that makes it possible to mimic a mobile phone tower and thus monitor cell phones -- costs a full $40,000. Computer bugging devices disguised as normal USB plugs, capable of sending and receiving data via radio undetected, are available in packs of 50 for over $1 million.

The ANT division doesn't just manufacture surveillance hardware. It also develops software for special tasks. The ANT developers have a clear preference for planting their malicious code in so-called BIOS, software located on a computer's motherboard that is the first thing to load when a computer is turned on.

This has a number of valuable advantages: an infected PC or server appears to be functioning normally, so the infection remains invisible to virus protection and other security programs. And even if the hard drive of an infected computer has been completely erased and a new operating system is installed, the ANT malware can continue to function and ensures that new spyware can once again be loaded onto what is presumed to be a clean computer. The ANT developers call this "Persistence" and believe this approach has provided them with the possibility of permanent access.

Another program attacks the firmware in hard drives manufactured by Western Digital, Seagate, Maxtor and Samsung, all of which, with the exception of latter, are American companies. Here, too, it appears the US intelligence agency is compromising the technology and products of American companies.

Other ANT programs target Internet routers meant for professional use or hardware firewalls intended to protect company networks from online attacks. Many digital attack weapons are "remotely installable" -- in other words, over the Internet. Others require a direct attack on an end-user device -- an "interdiction," as it is known in NSA jargon -- in order to install malware or bugging equipment.

The conclusion here is an easy one, and one we have repeated ever since before the Snowden revelations: Big Brother is bigger and badder than ever, he knows exactly what you've been doing, and the second the NSA wants to nuke your computer out of orbit and/or destroy your digital life, it can do so in a millisecond. What is more amusing is that with each passing disclosure, it is increasingly clear that the NSA has gotten its inspiration for its dealings with the US public from a Danielle Steel book at best, or a Vivid Video bootlegged tape at worst.

[mick silver]

bitcoin maybe the greatest thing that happen , but no one can say for sure that the banks and the goverments dont have a hand in them they love to the power and not for a second do i believe that there going to let it go, again till this happen i will stick with what works for me . i know i have made out good in my life better then alot i know . but what i trade with works for me

[madfranks]

mad this is what get me ok .... if someone is willing to pay $700 for one digital bitcoin, that is its value to that person, no matter what anyone else says. ... you said this bitcoins are digital so what make them any better then the paper i carry around an buy with , the people i give it to dont know me from jack shit in the woods , so why would i want them there both the same ... all i get from ares is a nasty mouth why there better

Well, having been a part of the bitcoin community for almost a year I can tell you that a form of money that can be traded on the internet, that is not issued by a central bank or controlled by a government, or monitored by a bank, that is supported and sustained by individuals freely choosing to do so, is vastly preferable to government and bank currency. If you had a bitcoin wallet, you and I could trade coins across the country as easy as if we were trading gold coins in person. Even though bitcoins are not backed by a hard asset, the service they provide by allowing individuals to ignore and defy government currency and money controls is a real advantage.

I will give you another example. My folks are going to be declaring bankruptcy soon, and part of the terms of their bankruptcy is that they have to submit to monitoring of all bank account transactions for the next 3 years! I am trying to get them to get a couple bitcoins in case they need to get something anonymously over the next few years. You can't deny that bitcoins provide value in this regard.

[Horn]

I won't argue your last point, but you say that gold cannot reach a value of 0. What about the people who are so ignorant they refuse a free gold coin? To them gold is worth 0. ....blah.... The answer is, that intrinsic value doesn't exist; all value is subjective.

To the dwarves who retrieved it, to chinese that place at the end of your phone line, to the banker that holds and suppresses. The only thing subjective about your test case is the people who it was presented to.

Gold's intrinsic value is held by Gold itself by the work it does that nothing else can.

Even madfranks has a certain amount of intrinsic value, albeit highly debatable, and sometimes suspect.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TZXw45V9CE

[mick silver]

it still digital mad .it like the stuff i get from the banks thats were we dont see eye to eye that why i know there someone with power behind ecoins just like the paper i trade with . it the same master we all hate in my post above i made alot on gold . but i cannot sale silver

[madfranks]

bitcoin maybe the greatest thing that happen , but no one can say for sure that the banks and the goverments dont have a hand in them they love to the power and not for a second do i believe that there going to let it go, again till this happen i will stick with what works for me . i know i have made out good in my life better then alot i know . but what i trade with works for me

In hindsight, it would have been a good move for me to sell every ounce of gold and silver I held at the beginning of the year and bought bitcoins at $11 each. But I didn't, because I value my physical enough that I won't sell them for an intangible digital currency. But I like having both, because I recognize the value in both.

[Cebu_4_2]

They both have value but,
If I wanted to expatriate to another country I couldn't bring all my silver or gold. And I am also limited to how much cash I am allowed to bring. And red flags go off for every transaction and withdrawal I do trying to send money to another bank, severely limiting the process. Now if I had a bitcoin wallet things get a buttload easier.

[Ares]

well it started here ............ As the Mark Dice video previously posted earlier, you're no better off than the ecoins. If Mark can't fucking give a gold coin away what makes you think you're going to trade anything of value with it?

You and Mick need to wake the fuck up. People don't hold gold or silver as anything of value. If they did people would jump on Mark Dice's offer, and there wouldn't be cash for gold stands on every corner in every city in the U.

Yeah??? So? Where did I say fuck you? Call you a fucker or mother fucker? Seriously Mick you need to work on your reading and comprehension skills.

[mick silver]

ares i work more then you will ever work , you dont know what work is i feed you and others till you walk in my shoes dont talk about me , if you were near me you would know me . never set at a computer . i started working when i was 16 no body gave me shit . hell my barn got more money in it then most will see in a life time . see dont tell me what i need to do . i dont live with mom and dad never have , so here how i see it there no one here better then anyone else . maybe in life you will see this . again never have set in front on a computer and call it a living . i works hard for my paper . i was building house for people as your mom slap your ass , again i have learned more the most and never set in front of a computer . like i said you started with the use of f with me . again i have a right to be here and say it like i see just as you do if you dont like that then when you see my name go around because i will not stop if i think i am right , like i said you maybe right on to something but i dont see it . that your right , if you learn anything from me buy some land learn to live on it and you will know work the kind that hurt ever morning till then

[Horn]

I can dig up a bunch of rocks and say that it costs $20 a ton to dig up these rocks but if there is nobody buying them it doesn't matter what it costs me to produce the rocks, they have no value until someone wants them.

We don't dictate the value of any real monetary asset, it has a say in the matter, and why Aristotle stated it as such.

E-coins are not a monetary asset and can be treated as the strictly subjective, multiplicative and derivative zero to hero whores they really aren't even.

Again if those were the only rocks available and the rest of the world gone, they would be the money.

[mick silver]

i just got five load of rock and it was over 1500.00 and that not cheap. the point i still need some rocks

[Ares]

ares i work more then you will ever work , you dont know what work is i feed you and others till you walk in my shoes dont talk about me

I grew up on a farm, I know what work is. Don't patronize me.


, if you were near me you would know me . never set at a computer . i started working when i was 16 no body gave me shit . hell my barn got more money in it then most will see in a life time . see dont tell me what i need to do . i dont live with mom and dad never have , so here how i see it there no one here better then anyone else .

I started working when I was 9 years old. First cutting the neighbors lawn with a push mower (3 acres worth of grass). Next bailing hay when I was in my teens. I worked 2 jobs every summer (bailing hay for a farmer down the road from my parents and Detasseling corn for Pioneer(now owned by DuPont) feed in Plymouth Indiana) until I graduated high school and went into the military. So you work hard, it doesn't make you special. But it does earn my respect because I know what that kind of work is.


maybe in life you will see this . again never have set in front on a computer and call it a living . i works hard for my paper . i was building house for people as your mom slap your ass
I was taught a motto by my grandfather growing up work smarter, not harder. The difference is I know I'm a slave and realize my labor and knowledge is worth more behind a computer than it is planting and harvesting each year. Most farmers I know barely scrape by after the globalist manipulate the prices of the grain and beef for their given agenda. Not to mention average farmers having to compete with agricultural businesses that are nothing more than mechanized robotic farms. I still grow my own food, I do my own canning, and when I lived back in Indiana took part in raising the head of beef that I intended on butchering for the year worth of food that it would provide. I know what work is.


, again i have learned more the most and never set in front of a computer . like i said you started with the use of f with me . again i have a right to be here and say it like i see just as you do if you dont like that then when you see my name go around because i will not stop if i think i am right , like i said you maybe right on to something but i dont see it . that your right , if you learn anything from me buy some land learn to live on it and you will know work the kind that hurt ever morning till then

I honestly don't know if I'm right. I just see the potential of it being a game changer. Along the lines of the internet when it was first introduced. Without it, neither you or I would be here. A new medium of exchange that isn't debt based, is issued on a given time frame by a hard coded computer algorithm is much more attractive to me, than Fed.gov just printing whenever they need a few trillion while the common people get stuck holding the bag like always. Peer To Peer technology is honestly the most open, least controlled system in existence because it relies upon volunteers.

[woodman]

Since this discussion has been going on so long and degenerated terribly, I will say again what I have been saying all along. I love the idea of a system that supercedes and makes irrelevant the banking schemes of the elite; a system that is usefull in negating the necessity of using their wampum; a system that makes purchases private. I don't think bitcoin is it though. I think it is wishfull thinking. I believe it is very possible that bitcoin is a creation of the PTB in some way. If not, then I think it will certainly be hijacked by them or destroyed. They will not go away and give up their obsession and drive for power. After all, this is the reason they have been manipulating asset prices so.

If bitcoin was to really become a force of some reckoning to abate their banking racket, they will surely pass legislation that nuetralizes the threat. Think they can't? Think again. I can think of many ways that a criminal elite could do this. They would treat it like a drug, a drug they cannot copyright and control, like pot. A fungible trade unit is indeed a very powerfull and mind bending drug. It operates on the most primitive and archetypical part of our brain\limbic system. The ability to purchase is the ability to control your environment and feed at will. No better drug on earth. Now comes along a drug that can't be patented and the masses wish to use it to circumvent the parasitical drain of life force that the elite have imposed upon us with their sysem of credit.

Do you really think they will let it stand? If so, why?

[Ares]

Woodman,.

Because they would have to legislate it on a global scale. Not every country is owned and operated by them. Drug laws for example, drugs were legalized in Portugal. If the elite can't keep even drug laws universal across the board (not to mention our own states legalizing marijuana) how do they ever have a chance of controlling crypto currencies? They have gone to war for much less than what Cryptos are doing now. Look at lybia and Iraq. Lybia never implemented its gold trading for oil bourse. Iraq only accepted euros for what 6 months before Saddam was taken out? Cryptos are doing what nations have failed to do because there is no figure head they can go after and exterminate. There is no one nation they can conquer to bring the game back in their favor. To control Cryptos it would have to be on a global scale and every country would have to outlaw its use. But that would just make it apparent to everyone how controlling and oppressive they are, and it would survive in Tor land and the black markets would thrive.

They are human subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us. They may have an advantage, but they are still flesh and blood and are no where near gods on this planet.

[Hitch]

I won't argue your last point, but you say that gold cannot reach a value of 0. What about the people who are so ignorant they refuse a free gold coin?

People instinctively know, nothing is free. A guy approaches you on the street offering a "gold" coin for some ridiculously low amount, people automatically assume it's a scam. Heck, Dice could go right into any coin shop and get spot price.

If we didn't know Dice's videos, we'd all assume the worst if he approached us. The advantage we have, is we can tell if it's real or not.

People know, even if ignorant, the value of gold and silver. When I was a kid, I'd always look for silver dimes. I can't explain HOW I know they were worth more, but I did.

Gold and Silver is God's way of keeping man honest, and truthful. It's man made currency, FRN's, paper, etc that corrupts everything.

This includes bitcoin. I don't care what someone joker is willing to cough up in our paper currency fraud for one. It is nothing. Literally. Some asshole created bitcoin in his garage, on some computer, probably for a joke and laugh. What a laugh it's become also. When it crashes and gets valued to zero, that will be a hoot too.

[Hitch]

Also, you can really tell when you buy something, your intentions, on it's value.

When buying a home, you think I'm going to live here forever, this is my home.

Buying gold and silver, I'm not getting rid of my gold, and will not sell my silver until it shoots to the moon.

Buying guns and ammo, this will save my life, I'm never selling...

What do you think when buying a bitcoin? How SOON can I get rid of this turd for a profit. Nobody in their right mind wants to hold bitcoin for any decent amount of time. You are just thinking of how soon you can sell it.

The point, when buying something of actual value, you tend to hold onto it. This is innate, it's in our nature.

[Ares]

Gold and Silver is God's way of keeping man honest, and truthful. It's man made currency, FRN's, paper, etc that corrupts everything.

How honest is gold plated Tungsten (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-10-oz-gold-bar-found-middle-manhattans-jewelry-district)?

The only way crypto's go to zero is if the encryption protecting it is somehow compromised. Or people just do not use them. So far SHA-256 is proving to be pretty resilient against brute force hacking. But that also goes without saying. Nothing invented by man is perfect.

[Hitch]

Nothing invented by man is perfect.

Gold wasn't invented by man. Gold IS perfect. We can not create it, nor destroy it. Gold plated tungsten is just man trying to steal from another man. God cracks a smile, I'm sure.

[Blink]

Woodman,.

Because they would have to legislate it on a global scale. Not every country is owned and operated by them. Drug laws for example, drugs were legalized in Portugal. If the elite can't keep even drug laws universal across the board (not to mention our own states legalizing marijuana) how do they ever have a chance of controlling crypto currencies? They have gone to war for much less than what Cryptos are doing now. Look at lybia and Iraq. Lybia never implemented its gold trading for oil bourse. Iraq only accepted euros for what 6 months before Saddam was taken out? Cryptos are doing what nations have failed to do because there is no figure head they can go after and exterminate. There is no one nation they can conquer to bring the game back in their favor. To control Cryptos it would have to be on a global scale and every country would have to outlaw its use. But that would just make it apparent to everyone how controlling and oppressive they are, and it would survive in Tor land and the black markets would thrive.

They are human subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us. They may have an advantage, but they are still flesh and blood and are no where near gods on this planet.


If anything, gotta love your commitment to BTC Ares. I think its to a point where you either have "faith" that crypto is the way to go (through the absolute unwavering belief that it is infallible to manipulation and control) or you think its a setup by the PTB to further their agenda of one world governance. Either way "I" don't think it will last in it's current form. One thing that isn't talked about as much is the amount of countries/people that don't even recognize or have heard of crypto currencies. This is mainly a game of "developed" nations, not third world countries (majority of the population on this planet). This whole argument is encapsulated to seem like a world wide phenomena when in fact its not. A distraction to cover the movement of gold around the globe, a repositioning of power and control to new hands. If BTC was the answer or even close, then China wouldn't be grabbing as much gold as they could get their hands on (or for that matter the demand that India is putting on it, which their government is vehemently trying to stop, why is that do you think?). You're obviously a tech dude and thats great that "you" and a select "minority" understand it and how it works, but, if your gonna sell something to the world, especially in these times, understanding how it works is paramount to "trust" and "faith". Insults won't win you converts and only enforces the idea that something is up. Though, this is all mute at the moment because its more of a speculative bubble than a currency, we'll have to wait it out and see who's reality shines through..........

[Ares]

Gold wasn't invented by man. Gold IS perfect. We can not create it, nor destroy it. Gold plated tungsten is just man trying to steal from another man. God cracks a smile, I'm sure.

How valuable would gold be if say 1/4th of the earth's crust contained gold? How valuable is sand?

In order to defeat our rulers we have to re-evaluate what we consider to be "money". Crypto's are proving that anything can be a medium of exchange. As it should be. No one should determine what people should be FORCED to use as a medium of exchange.

Give the man a gun, he can rob a bank. Give a man a central bank and he can rob a nation.

[Hitch]

How valuable would gold be if say 1/4th of the earth's crust contained gold? How valuable is sand?

In order to defeat our rulers we have to re-evaluate what we consider to be "money". Crypto's are proving that anything can be a medium of exchange. As it should be. No one should determine what people should be FORCED to use as a medium of exchange.

Give the man a gun, he can rob a bank. Give a man a central bank and he can rob a nation.

Everything was created by God, for a purpose. Anything tangible that is. The earth's crust of soil, so we can grow food. Sandy beaches to we can walk barefoot and enjoy life, with beautiful women with us.

Scammers created bitcoin and sold it to con folks. People create for greed, God created because he loves us.

The more and more I learn, nothing is more clear to me.

[Ares]

If anything, gotta love your commitment to BTC Ares. I think its to a point where you either have "faith" that crypto is the way to go (through the absolute unwavering belief that it is infallible to manipulation and control) or you think its a setup by the PTB to further their agenda of one world governance. Either way "I" don't think it will last in it's current form. One thing that isn't talked about as much is the amount of countries/people that don't even recognize or have heard of crypto currencies.
I believe in crypto's due to their ability to function outside of central bank and national control. I'm along for the ride, I have no idea if they'll win in the end. But the idea that you don't need a central bank or nation controlling a medium of exchange is an attractive idea.


This is mainly a game of "developed" nations, not third world countries (majority of the population on this planet). This whole argument is encapsulated to seem like a world wide phenomena when in fact its not.

Most third world nations use cell phones for communication, not to mention Kenya which is a third world nation is using Bitcoins to get around the expensive money remittance issue.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-28/bitcoin-service-targets-kenya-remittances-with-cut-rate-fees-1-.html



A distraction to cover the movement of gold around the globe, a repositioning of power and control to new hands. If BTC was the answer or even close, then China wouldn't be grabbing as much gold as they could get their hands on (or for that matter the demand that India is putting on it, which their government is vehemently trying to stop, why is that do you think?).

Because gold has value, bitcoins are only a digital currency. They know the dollar is done and are trying to protect their position. That's why they are buying gold hand over fist, as would I if I had billions laying around and wanted to protect it. I'd buy up as much physical silver and gold as I could.


You're obviously a tech dude and thats great that "you" and a select "minority" understand it and how it works, but, if your gonna sell something to the world, especially in these times, understanding how it works is paramount to "trust" and "faith". Insults won't win you converts and only enforces the idea that something is up. Though, this is all mute at the moment because its more of a speculative bubble than a currency, we'll have to wait it out and see who's reality shines through..........

I've encountered quite a few people who aren't tech savvy, and do understand it. Yes understanding the technical possibilities as well as limitations is handy. But it's not necessary to use it. I'd wager than 98% of the population has no idea how the dollar works, yet they use it. Or credit cards, and how they work. But they use it.

It could be a speculative bubble, or it could be the free market trying to find the market value. I agree, just waiting and seeing where it ends up is the best approach.

[EE_]

Also, you can really tell when you buy something, your intentions, on it's value.

When buying a home, you think I'm going to live here forever, this is my home.

Buying gold and silver, I'm not getting rid of my gold, and will not sell my silver until it shoots to the moon.

Buying guns and ammo, this will save my life, I'm never selling...

What do you think when buying a bitcoin? How SOON can I get rid of this turd for a profit. Nobody in their right mind wants to hold bitcoin for any decent amount of time. You are just thinking of how soon you can sell it.

The point, when buying something of actual value, you tend to hold onto it. This is innate, it's in our nature.

Actual value can fall into a catagory of necessity, meaning something you and others need to sustain life.

Outside of necessity, or things that have actual value, including love of friends and family...as I said before, everthing else is valued by rising prices.

Everyone wants in on rising prices. Why? Because everyone wants money! And they want money without actually working, breaking a sweat, or getting a callus for it. No one cares to produce anything anymore, just more money.

Look at gold, sentiment is so bad, no one in the US even wants to touch it anymore. No one is hawking it, or saying it's a good buy even. It doesn't matter what's happing anywhere else in the world, or that the vaults are empty. It's price isn't rising, so it has no value.

Wall Street commody traders have never been this barish and they are calling for sub $1,000 gold this year. Probably will happen barred any manufactured financial crisis.

So this is what we turned into, the majority of America will just keep chasing rising prices...doesn't matter what it is.

People are no longer worried about doom anymore either. TPTB have never lost control as many might have thought. What we are experiencing, is just an adjustment to a lower standard of living. Sorry, no doom.

Long live rising prices!
I hope bitcoin succeeds too...I want everyone to get what they deserve!

The American way to riches, my dog figured it out (see below)

[madfranks]

Since this discussion has been going on so long and degenerated terribly, I will say again what I have been saying all along. I love the idea of a system that supercedes and makes irrelevant the banking schemes of the elite; a system that is usefull in negating the necessity of using their wampum; a system that makes purchases private. I don't think bitcoin is it though. I think it is wishfull thinking. I believe it is very possible that bitcoin is a creation of the PTB in some way. If not, then I think it will certainly be hijacked by them or destroyed. They will not go away and give up their obsession and drive for power. After all, this is the reason they have been manipulating asset prices so.

If bitcoin was to really become a force of some reckoning to abate their banking racket, they will surely pass legislation that nuetralizes the threat. Think they can't? Think again. I can think of many ways that a criminal elite could do this. They would treat it like a drug, a drug they cannot copyright and control, like pot. A fungible trade unit is indeed a very powerfull and mind bending drug. It operates on the most primitive and archetypical part of our brain\limbic system. The ability to purchase is the ability to control your environment and feed at will. No better drug on earth. Now comes along a drug that can't be patented and the masses wish to use it to circumvent the parasitical drain of life force that the elite have imposed upon us with their sysem of credit.

Do you really think they will let it stand? If so, why?


Woodman,.

Because they would have to legislate it on a global scale. Not every country is owned and operated by them. Drug laws for example, drugs were legalized in Portugal. If the elite can't keep even drug laws universal across the board (not to mention our own states legalizing marijuana) how do they ever have a chance of controlling crypto currencies? They have gone to war for much less than what Cryptos are doing now. Look at lybia and Iraq. Lybia never implemented its gold trading for oil bourse. Iraq only accepted euros for what 6 months before Saddam was taken out? Cryptos are doing what nations have failed to do because there is no figure head they can go after and exterminate. There is no one nation they can conquer to bring the game back in their favor. To control Cryptos it would have to be on a global scale and every country would have to outlaw its use. But that would just make it apparent to everyone how controlling and oppressive they are, and it would survive in Tor land and the black markets would thrive.

They are human subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us. They may have an advantage, but they are still flesh and blood and are no where near gods on this planet.

Here's my prediction. Governments don't need to legislate it out of existence, Wall Street and the banks will simply kill it. 2014 is going to be the year that Wall Street and the big banks get in the BTC game. They've already started bitcoin investment funds, ETFs, and who knows what else. They don't even need to sell it, they can borrow cheap $ from the banks to pump this "investment" up. Just like they borrowed money to fuel the housing crisis, just like they borrowed money to fuel the tech boom, they can/will borrow money to fund the bitcoin bubble. The market cap of bitcoin right now is appx. $9 billion, chump change to these guys. Have Wall Street and the banks dump a few $100 billion or maybe a trillion into BTC to buy up a controlling share, then watch as they sell it all and dump the price to pennies. Nothing is as easy to pump and dump as bitcoin. Think about it, it can be bought with ownership transferred instantly, and there is no other asset on which anyone can base its perceived value. There is no historical standard upon which to base a price. What should BTC be valued at? $1, or $1,000,000 or one cent? It can be any of those things, so when Wall St pumps it up to 6 digits or higher, who will be able to say it's overvalued? Then they can dump it hard, crash it across the globe, and hope to make just enough people hate it that it never reaches mainstream again.

Why do you think that the US government came out with a favorable stance on BTC earlier this year? The bankers want in, so they can kill it.

This is what I think, but like a few others here, I'm already in the crypto game, so my only question is when is the right time to get out?

[Ares]

Madfranks,

That is the most likely scenario on how they'll kill their competitor. Nothing works as well as a nice pump and dump. They know government regulation won't work since it is global. But buy up a controlling share then sell it for cheap to a "partner" and crash it goes.

[Horn]

A most likely scenario that most likely already has occurred. Silver kills masonic banks, why it was so easily shed by the masses for Bitcoin.

Sun Tzu stated that the enemy must be given what appears to be a safe route to escape then surround him.

Bitcoin was created by DARPA to provide that safe route, tptb's enemies will be surrounded.

[woodman]

Woodman,.

Because they would have to legislate it on a global scale. Not every country is owned and operated by them. Drug laws for example, drugs were legalized in Portugal. If the elite can't keep even drug laws universal across the board (not to mention our own states legalizing marijuana) how do they ever have a chance of controlling crypto currencies? They have gone to war for much less than what Cryptos are doing now. Look at lybia and Iraq. Lybia never implemented its gold trading for oil bourse. Iraq only accepted euros for what 6 months before Saddam was taken out? Cryptos are doing what nations have failed to do because there is no figure head they can go after and exterminate. There is no one nation they can conquer to bring the game back in their favor. To control Cryptos it would have to be on a global scale and every country would have to outlaw its use. But that would just make it apparent to everyone how controlling and oppressive they are, and it would survive in Tor land and the black markets would thrive.

They are human subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us. They may have an advantage, but they are still flesh and blood and are no where near gods on this planet.

I will admit that I don't understand bitcoin. This is partially due to the fact that I simply don't want to invest time in researching and understanding it. Secondly, however, is the fact that it is seemingly complex, complex enough that someone needs to research it and learn to set up a wallet, etc. I was once an engineering student and aced college algebra, trig and calc tests and I find it confusing. Logarithms? I haven't used them in years. I don't think the average Joe knows anything about them.

When a system is complex it has more openings for attack. The more complexity, the more easily it is attacked. This seems somewhat counter-intuitive, but is true none the less. If we look at the natural world, we see this play out in the ability to destroy simple organisms. The more primitive an organism, i.e. simple it is, the more impervious to destruction. Bacteria have many points to make inroads, for example using viruses or anti-biotics. Viruses are harder to combat and as it stands, the most impervious are the pathogens that are so simple they are not even considered forms of life, that is miss-folded proteins or prions.

I don't know much, but this I surmise: Machines are set up to mine bitcoins, ok. The machines go to a site that has been set up for this purpose, ok. They search with code for bitcoins, performing untold queries per second to find hidden bitcoins that are lodged in a program like mario coins are lodged in a brick wall in mario land. Since bitcoin is set up as an imitation of reality we can use reality based systems to examine it and determine it's weaknesses. How secure is the mine for starters. The program exists somewhere. It has a concrete location on a computer somewhere, as do it's verification and redemtion loci. Although it is all cyber, it has a physical tether where it gets it's power. It has to have a home base somewhere. A physical spot where The program emanates from. I still think it is too complex and this is it's downfall.

[Horn]

A physical spot where The program emanates from. I still think it is too complex and this is it's downfall.

It emanates from a network connection between places, the network was also created by DARPA.

Its achilles, is that it was not supplanted in the real world enough firstly with being able to purchase real world physical items besides paper fiat. And a bloated ledger that can only be maintained by super computers, those will have physical locations.

The "mining" promotion is just a sales pitch to increase the size of the network with an initial temporary inflation of freely available digits over time.

[Hypertiger]

http://www.internetsociety.org/internet/what-internet/history-internet/brief-history-internet-related-networks

The instant you connected to the Internet whenever that was...It was checkmate.

"A gold sink is any game mechanic that removes currency from an in-game economy, thereby counteracting the inflationary effects of farming. Without gold sinks, in-game prices would spiral out of control, rendering it impossible for new and casual players to afford to trade with those that play frequently."

You all have been tranceformed into digital electronic computerized game players since the 1960's

http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/whatis.htm

You all have zero idea how gone you all are.

They have my computer hacked so I can not access Wikipedia currently.

[Hypertiger]

Bitcoin is easy to understand...

Bitcoin 1929 and 2013

[Horn]

They have my computer hacked so I can not access Wikipedia currently.

History is written by the winners... this is my chance at telling you that you've lost due to dark cloud ignorance.

[madfranks]

http://www.internetsociety.org/internet/what-internet/history-internet/brief-history-internet-related-networks

The instant you connected to the Internet whenever that was...It was checkmate.

"A gold sink is any game mechanic that removes currency from an in-game economy, thereby counteracting the inflationary effects of farming. Without gold sinks, in-game prices would spiral out of control, rendering it impossible for new and casual players to afford to trade with those that play frequently."

You all have been tranceformed into digital electronic computerized game players since the 1960's

http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/general/whatis.htm

You all have zero idea how gone you all are.

They have my computer hacked so I can not access Wikipedia currently.

Ha ha, you have no idea what you're talking about. Video game "gold sinks" are needed because there is no limit to how much video game gold can be gained by the players. The whole reason bitcoin succeeded is because it, like real gold, is fixed in supply, and cannot be double spent.

[woodman]

history is written by the winners... This is my chance at telling you that you've lost due to dark cloud ignorance.

lol

[Hypertiger]

ha ha...It still has not been used as the basis for fractional reserve banking...It is only being used a unit of account currently...like twitter stocks...It is not being used as money.

The only thing bit coin has succeeded in doing is fooling you into thinking it is succeeding or has succeeded.

I do not care in the slightest what you think...just like drug addict in a opium den...Yes I'm sure If I start smoking opium I'll feel better...But I'm a real worker...a net producer of power to society...that is then turned into fake power or money or now credit...to supply net consumers of yield.

oil is extracted wholesale and then marked up and sold retail and burnt...what is left over after this is the waste by products...exhaust mostly and 1's and 0's or electromagnetic polarity differentials on hard disk platters.

basically oil is modulated into digital information and then demodulated into money...soon there will be no money at all...that is the plan...it will all just be units of account...and you will have to switch to barter if you wish to exchange tangible things for tangible things without having a supply of 1's and 0's.

You all are committing suicide and do not even know it.

And for your information all the real gold in circulation has been lent into circulation by bullion banks and then deposited in bullion banks over an over again for decades and all the gold you all think you own...you do not...and when they call it back in...the top has pricing power...they will just raise the prices on everything and suck the gold out of your hands and then the flesh from your skeletons.

You all are lambs being led to the slaughter that think you are men...

You are digital electronic game players that have zero clue and think these Internet text adventures mean something...you are just yield locusts plundering the countryside into oblivion and then will die off.

[Hypertiger]

History is written by the winners and none of you are going to be winners...all this data and everything will be gone...the deflation will bankrupt all the data centres...and they will be switched off.

That is the beauty of the game you all are playing...you all think you are winning it or are going to win it until the logical conclusion of the reasonable assumption is reached.

The logical conclusion of any game is game over...where all that thought they were winning...find out they were losers all along.

Like the Germans or the Japanese in 1945 running around in rags in the smoldering ruins when the logical conclusion or defeat of the reasonable assumption of victory was reached.

[Horn]

History is written by the winners and none of you are going to be winners...all this data and everything will be gone...the deflation will bankrupt all the data centres...and they will be switched off.

Its too good an investment to let go they are one step ahead of you.


Solar-Powered Cloud Computing Datacenters

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=6109222

[Hypertiger]

in a real game of poker you can cheat of course but it's hard...and you can get blown away at the table if you are caught...in a digital game...there is no way to find out if you are being cheated...it's a simple operation to manipulate the data with algorithms you can not see.

Do you know how a random number is generated?

You ask GOD for what you want...and GOD gives you what you need...that is how random numbers are ultimately generated...you roll the dice...and GOD shows you the result.

unless you cheat...and with computers...you can write programs which are algorithms to milk gamblers or investors if that is what you want to be called with zero effort and zero chance of being caught unless someone that knows what is going on reveals what is going on...and you can have a program ready to erase evidence.

You all can not see the millions of calculations per second that draws/creates and erases/destroys the screen you are looking at which is a lie you believe is Truth 60 times a second.

You can not see the invisible order behind the visible chaos.

out of sight and out of mind is the religion of the blind

[Hypertiger]

too bad you are not solar powered...you all require more than the sun shining on you to sustain your existence...you are not plants...Please try to think before you waste time posting proof you do not know how to.

I worked in a data center and know more about them then you ever will in your wildest fantasies.

The entire global banking system is redundant and most of you are just a massive waste of limited resources...legacy software...barbarous relics...when the system hits the singularity you all will transform from fundable assets into unfundable liabilities and be liquidated one way or the other.

[Hypertiger]

The logical conclusion of any game is game over....the logical conclusion (or defeat) of the reasonable assumption (of victory)

Paddy cake paddy cake Bakers man... bake me a cake as fast as you can...but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

And you eventually run out of pi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSqiKLtWa7o

[Hypertiger]

The internet was handed to you all for free to get you hooked.

Internet = master/dealer

you all = slaves/addicts

too negative?

Then lets feed master/dealer and slave/addict through....the just think/embrace positive ignore/reject negative algorithm.

Master/dealer becomes server and slave/addict becomes client.

Then the master slave relationship turns into the client server model.

You all have zero idea how gone you are.

Posted 16 January 2003 - 06:52 PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Microsoft's strategy for the long term is to buy up the "tech" sector... They will be the last one left standing... To the people that wanted to stop Microsoft or break them up, the chance came and went close to 15 years ago to do something...

Microsoft is institutionalized... and will eat the dead...

I picked myself out of the carnage and walked off Microsoft battlefield over a decade ago... I took note at that time that the Microsoft Army appeared to have not even been scratched while Apple was reduced to a bloody mess...

The Microsoft Army is still not even scratched and the enemy weakens by the day...

Untill William Gates III relinquishes control of his empire, which by the way he can hold in the palm of his hand, The tears of joy at it's down fall will never show up...

The most diabolical of the diabolical work behind the scenes in Redmond... Don't be fooled...

Window Pain

Traveling at the speed of light through
Glass corridors of information
Then thrusting forth invisible waves towards infinity's
Culmination
Signals the windows have reached their intended
Destination

The millions who've been fed for years by the enlightened few
Have succumbed to the ethereal coercion
Which led to the gates of slaughter in pursuit of the latest version
All the others are kept in line by codependent confusion
While the unbelievers risk being left out of the synthetic
Revolution.

Control of the media, banks, payments, entertainment,
Wireless data, and the super highway
Is the next justification for monetary domination
A computer in every house and on every desk
Is just one king's new form of taxation
We've thrown off our chains of oppression
And exchange them for the puppet master's strings of persuasion
One mans dream for humanity
Or a megalomaniac's salvation?

1995 Hypertiger

"That function can only be preformed by an administrator, or Bill and Melinda Gates"

-What you see when you hit control-alt-delete on the computers at the local library...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

game set match...screwed blued and tattooed...checkmate...you name it.

You all know virtually zero about the toys you were handed by mommy and daddy to play with.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/may/31/new-york-billionaire-philanthropists

"Another guest said there was “nothing as crude as a vote” but a consensus emerged that they would back a strategy in which population growth would be tackled as a potentially disastrous environmental, social and industrial threat."

“This is something so nightmarish that everyone in this group agreed it needs big-brain answers,” said the guest. “They need to be independent of government agencies, which are unable to head off the disaster we all see looming.”

[Horn]

...when the system hits the singularity


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAaXLFvQRPY

[madfranks]

too bad you are not solar powered...you all require more than the sun shining on you to sustain your existence...you are not plants...Please try to think before you waste time posting proof you do not know how to.

Sorry HT, I am solar powered. I neither eat nor drink, rather step outside and bask in the sunlight which provides me all the energy I need to live. But you, I bet you're one of those filthy bottom feeders who actually has to eat food and drink water to synthesize your energy, boy do I feel sorry for you.

[Horn]

I actually eat whole old growth timber for breakfast, a completely unsustainable habit I've only been able to control since I left the Northern U.S. in 1913

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Forest_land_trends_in_the_United_States%2C_1850-1997.png

[Son-of-Liberty]

They both have value but,
If I wanted to expatriate to another country I couldn't bring all my silver or gold. And I am also limited to how much cash I am allowed to bring. And red flags go off for every transaction and withdrawal I do trying to send money to another bank, severely limiting the process. Now if I had a bitcoin wallet things get a buttload easier.

This in a nutshell is why BTC or alternatives are so powerful.

Anonymity and no permission needed to send money anywhere in the world instantly. What's not to like.

Cryptocurrency will make western union, bank wires, and services like paypal obsolete.

I personally know someone who was paid recently for online services by paypal and the fees and delays to use this payment method is ridiculous.

They take 2.9% plus a $0.30 transaction fee, it takes 5-7 business days to send your money to a bank account and you can't send less then $15 to your bank account.

A total rip off and shoddy service and completely transparent to the government. Paypal is obsolete. In a few years with greater public adoption of crypto's you will see these companies that gouge people and invade their privacy go the way of blockbuster.

[Horn]

This in a nutshell is why BTC or alternatives are so powerful.

Mt. Gox frowns on anyone making withdrawls from Bitcoin, depending on what country you visit you'd still have to pay the exchange rate into the local. My suggestion for anyone moving large undetectable amounts of money around is change purses full of 1/4oz. gold coins, they appear as nickels or quarters on most TSA scanners, and have the side benefit of not requiring transfer fees and long wait times from Bitcoin exchanges. A couple gold friendly competing dealers on the other end will be all that is needed.

If and when filling out your customs card for amount of monetary instruments,

then you all can use your "Money as a strictly Subjective Value" definitions. If the custom agent asks you how much they're worth say about $25 a piece.