It's official: The M-16/M4/AR platform SUCKS

[midnight rambler]

Gee, who didn't see this coming - eventually??


Documents obtained by The Washington Times show the Pentagon (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/pentagon/) was warned before the Afghanistan (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/afghanistan/) and Iraq (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/iraq/) wars that the iterations of the M4 carbine were flawed and might jam or fail, especially in the harsh desert conditions that both wars inflicted.

U.S. Special Operations Command (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/us-special-operations-command/) in 2001 issued a damning private report that said the M4A1 was fundamentally flawed because the gun failed when called on to unleash rapid firing.



http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/19/troop-left-to-fend-for-themselves-after-army-was-w/

[Shami-Amourae]

What rifle platform is superior? I know the AK platform is reliable, but it's not very accurate.

[midnight rambler]

What rifle platform is superior? I know the AK platform is reliable, but it's not very accurate.

Sometimes one has to sacrifice accuracy for down and dirty reliability. And it's the 7.62x39 round that contributes significantly to lack of precision in the AK (there is a LOT of barrel whip on the AK), an AK in 5.45 or 5.56 isn't as bad on accuracy as 7.62x39.

As for another platform other than the AK that depends upon what caliber you've chosen. Generally I wouldn't want to rely on anything that isn't battle proven (e.g. the M-14 or FAL) however I've been considering a Bushmaster ACR for my 5.56 (poodle shooter) platform (currently have an Arsenal AK filling that role).

[hoarder]

What rifle platform is superior? I know the AK platform is reliable, but it's not very accurate.All military rifles are flawed, it's really just a matter of which flaws you can live with and which flaws you can mitigate.

Most are flawed due to weight....just too damn heavy. The M1A is probably the best in that category. Some, like the Uzi and the Tommy gun are flawed because they fire inaccurate handgun cartridges.

It really comes down to either the M16/AR15 or the Ak47, both of which have many flaws, IMO.

[EE_]

If I want something for long range accuracy with reliability, I'll get a bolt action rifle.
If I want something for crowd control, it's an AK for me!

[Jewboo]

If I want something for crowd control, it's an AK for me!




http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/d0/830px-RiotShotgun_(1).png.png/600px-830px-RiotShotgun_(1).png.png


12 gauge shotgun for crowd control.


:rolleyes: with real 00 buckshot...not those silly rubber plugs...lol.

[Jewboo]

All military rifles are flawed...





http://fortunewallstreet.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/henry_kissinger.jpg

Goyim soldiers on both sides with cheap weapons is ideal

[Shami-Amourae]

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/d/d0/830px-RiotShotgun_(1).png.png/600px-830px-RiotShotgun_(1).png.png


12 gauge shotgun for crowd control.


:rolleyes: with real 00 buckshot...not those silly rubber plugs...lol.

I prefer shotguns over rifles. I only see rifles as useful for long-range combat/sniping/hunting.

[brosil]

I got to work for Gene Stoner for a while . Try and remember that the M-16 was designed as a replacement for a trench shotgun. What's remarkable is that an M-4 works as well as it does.

[midnight rambler]

I got to work for Gene Stoner for a while . Try and remember that the M-16 was designed as a replacement for a trench shotgun. What's remarkable is that an M-4 works as well as it does.

If the DOD had adopted the AR-18/180 instead of the M-16 there'd never have been any real problems. And fwiw, the DOD tested the AR-10 in the 'nam just prior to adopting the M-16 - I know someone who carried an AR-10 prototype in the 'nam. The gun he clearly remembers that he was issued was an AR-10, NOT a M-16. I recall he related to me regarding the AR-10: "To maintain reliability we had to clean that rifle at least once a day even if we didn't fire it, just the dust from our footfalls on the trail would cause problems with it."

[Ponce]

No matter who I was with I always choose the M-1, never failed me and easy to reload......the only time that had something else was the British Jungle Carabine when I was in Cuba.......those M- whatever are nothing but toys.

V

[Ares]

Maximum reliability and accuracy? Bolt action rifle.
Accurate but lose some reliability AR-16 / M-16 platform
Reliable yet not very accurate AK-47, or any of it's variants.

I have a Bushmaster AR-15 Modular carbine, it hasn't jammed on me once in the 5 years that I've had it. BUT, I also clean it after every use, and before I go to the range I give it a light oiling after sitting x number of months in a gun safe. That routine has served me well. But I also haven't been in any deserts or an under fire situation. Hopefully never have to be in that situation but so far my weapon has served me well.

I plan on getting an AK when I get some more funds just so I can have a mix bag of go to weapons.

[old steel]

Go with a high end AR like a Knights Armament or a Noveske, it's more money but how much is your life worth if it's on the line?

Good thing about an AR is ammo's lighter so you can carry more on you.

[brosil]

If the DOD had adopted the AR-18/180 instead of the M-16 there'd never have been any real problems. And fwiw, the DOD tested the AR-10 in the 'nam just prior to adopting the M-16 - I know someone who carried an AR-10 prototype in the 'nam. The gun he clearly remembers that he was issued was an AR-10, NOT a M-16. I recall he related to me regarding the AR-10: "To maintain reliability we had to clean that rifle at least once a day even if we didn't fire it, just the dust from our footfalls on the trail would cause problems with it."
I agree on the AR-18. Stoner always said that was the firearm that the M-16 should have been. There's nothing inherently wrong with the Stoner system. The biggest problem was Bob McNamara and his college boys. Leaving the chrome off the chamber to save a buck killed many a man. Bastard!

[Uncle Salty]

The system doesn't suck.

I have put thousands of rounds through mine without a problem.

And since I don't plan on any desert fighting, I think I'll be fine. Should I end up there, I guess I'll use my SKS.

[horseshoe3]

I prefer shotguns over rifles. I only see rifles as useful for long-range combat/sniping/hunting.

Distance is your friend. Especially if you're outnumbered.

[midnight rambler]

I knew beforehand that some folks would get butthurt over the OP. lol

[vacuum]

Since none of our weapons are full auto, doesn't the reliability gap narrow? I'd think that a scope with long range and semi-auto would probably be the most common use.

[Half Sense]

I believe Jesus used a lever-action Winchester and did okay with it.

[Ares]

I believe Jesus used a lever-action Winchester and did okay with it.

Lever action indeed.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/FBC_CYN/JesusRifle_02.jpg

[Shami-Amourae]

If you had one level-action rifle, what caliber would you guys go for, and why?

[Horn]

Accuracy with an Ak is subjective, I never have any problem hitting the subject.

.223 is more difficult for me to place down range, can't feel it slipping out of the barrel.

Who would want to fire one more rapid than a short burst, I don't know?

Guess they're hoping for a shrapnel score.

[midnight rambler]

If you had one level-action rifle, what caliber would you guys go for, and why?

1886 Browning (exact reproduction of the 1886 Winchester) made in the mid-'80s in .45-70. Once one masters the rainbow trajectory of the .45-70 it's a very versatile round (can take any game in N. America), including handloading black powder (no need to measure the powder charge when using black powder just fill that case up and let 'er rip, the '86 can handle it).

[hoarder]

If you had one level-action rifle, what caliber would you guys go for, and why?30-30 in either a pre-1964 Winchester 94 or a Marlin 336.

the 30-30 is comparable to the 762-39 and one of the most common cartridges in the US. Will take any game up to elk.

Peep rear sight recommended.

[mick silver]

30/30 Winchester is what i use for deer now , at one time i used a 7mm it f the deer up to bad . i have never had to shot a deer at 400 ft are 500 ft away so the 7mm was over kill for deer . i own a ar15 but i like my ak47 alot more . hell i have had the barrel smoking hot from running ammo though the gun , never have trouble with the gun . but i just dont think my ar15 would take what i done with the ak . plus the ar a money hole just look at all money with all the add on stuff they sale for the gun i have seen guys put more add on stuff on there gun the the gun cost

[tekhen]

This is a 50+ y/o known issue and is far from breaking news. For a change in the platform... see gas piston over direct impingement.

Manufacturers have made many advances in the M4/16 - AR platform. The 'brass' has yet to allow the advancements to the field. Those politics can be debated if you so choose.

Not only reliability... the 5.56 has also been an issue. A larger round has also been found to have the needed accuracy along with the knock down power. See the 6.8mm.

Follow the money on why the soldier does not have the 'needed' material.

[midnight rambler]

Not only reliability... the 5.56 has also been an issue.

The Swiss hit the sweet spot with the 6.5mm.