We Cannot Get Away from Gold or Silver....Hugo Salinas Price

[Serpo]

We Cannot Get Away from Gold or Silver



-- Posted Friday, 14 March 2014 | Share this article | Comment - New! (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1394806500.php#disqus_thread)


By Hugo Salinas Price

It is remarkable how billions of human beings are using fiat currencies in the world today without any understanding at all of what they are doing. Curiosity and intellect are indeed very limited in supply amongst humans.
Humanity is attempting to live by the use of fiat currencies – gold and silver as means of interaction between humans are not available today.
And humans are quite ignorant of the fact that the fiat currencies they use have each of them a HISTORY behind them, without which they would not exist.
We humans tend today to discount History. The past has lost its meaning to us. We live entirely in the Present; what happened just a few years ago is no longer of interest, except to a very small minority of humans. History has become irrelevant; we are so engrossed with Technology, the God of the present era, that we have little urge to direct our attention elsewhere.
The Bitcoin is - according to some at any rate - a technological marvel and should therefore do everything that is expected of it. But the fact that it may be a technological marvel is not enough, though people doubt that statement to begin with. "If the Bitcoin is a technological marvel, then surely it will have to be a brilliant success." This is optimistic thinking, but quite shallow.
The fact is that all currencies which we unthinkingly use incorporate a historic element. The digitalization of currencies does not eliminate the historic element. Digital currencies DERIVE from paper currencies, and paper currencies, ALL of them, derive from original monetary units which were various quantities of gold or silver.
Not all the technology in the world can eliminate the fact that all digital and paper currencies DERIVE from ancestral quantities of gold or silver which bore the names of the digital or paper fiat currencies we use today.
Humans appear to be willing to attribute derived values to fiat currencies, even when the derivation ascends into the many millions of units. Thus, the great inflations the world has experienced, one of the latest being that which took place in Zimbabwe.
Only when the number of units becomes totally unwieldy is the inflating fiat currency finally rejected, in favor of some alternative fiat currency (no recourse to gold or silver being possible at present.) And so we have had the Mexican peso that went into the thousands of units per fiat dollar, and prices of everything in Mexico into the millions of pesos, before the State decided to shave 1,000 units from the value of the Peso. And still it continues to devalue, now at $13,250 pre-1993 fiat pesos to the dollar, if the $1,000 peso haircut is ignored.
Zimbabwe had its currency go into 1 plus 22 zeros per dollar, before it was finally cast into the junk heap. Humanity is so tolerant!
I'd like to make the point, which I consider important, that critics of fiat currencies have been omitting the historic component of ALL fiat currencies. We are told by the Establishment gurus that gold is finished, that it can never return, that we are beyond gold in a new era of progress which gold could not sustain - the barbarous relic - but what remains unsaid is the enormous fact that ALL fiat currencies, digital and paper, remind us every day (if we care to think about it) that they are descended from gold or silver, and could not exist without this descent. So, gold and silver remain supreme, behind everything that is going on with digital and paper fiat currencies.
We cannot get away from gold or silver! All fiat currencies, digital or paper, testify to their origin in gold or silver.
The Bitcoin is not derived from gold or silver, it is parentless and thus will not and cannot ever circulate as a type of fiat currency, no matter how perfect its technological conception.
Originally published at http://www.plata.com.mx/Mplata/articulos/articlesFilt.asp?fiidarticulo=235

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1394806500.php

[mick silver]

silly people gold an silver not money ......... the goverment told me this

[Ares]

The Bitcoin is not derived from gold or silver, it is parentless and thus will not and cannot ever circulate as a type of fiat currency, no matter how perfect its technological conception.

The author seems to think that Bitcoin is "Fiat". The author would have more credibility if he actually understood the words he was using.

Bitcoin is more than a unit of account. It's also a payment system. Traditional currency systems are just units of account. The guy is comparing apples and oranges with this article.

Gold and Silver are STORES OF VALUE. While currency is a medium of exchange. Yes there was a time humans used a store of value as a medium of exchange. But a long time ago we separated the two and left the store of value at the bank while we used the medium of exchange (A paper receipt, which was "As Good As Gold") to conduct commerce. That hasn't worked out too well for us. While we have advanced and now have nations around the world that develop products or services that are desirable in other parts of the world, traditional currencies fail in their inefficiencies and too many middle man in the business transaction of John buying something from Anna in Germany. If you used Gold or Silver for international commerce I can only imagine the gross inefficiencies and inadequacies that would arise in having John send Anna in Germany 5 ounces of gold for a life saving alternative cancer treatment.

This author falls for the same misconceptions, misunderstandings and the same crap that members here fall for.. We've been advocating for competing currencies for years. One comes along this author, some members here don't like it because it's not gold or silver. I know I've never called crypto's a replacement for gold or silver they are just another form of doing commerce. Some of you I'm sure including this author call themselves free market thinkers and economist, even advocating for bartering when need be. How are crypto's different than bartering? If I want to buy something from Madfranks we settle on a price of a digital unit, and I send it to him, he then sends me what I wanted to purchase. How is that any different than saying if we lived next door to each other and traded 2-3 chicken eggs for a cup of sugar?

[Neuro]

How is that any different than saying if we lived next door to each other and traded 2-3 chicken eggs for a cup of sugar? Separate the trades six months from each other. Iow you trade 3 chicken eggs for one cup of sugar, but you agree to deliver the chicken eggs six months later, still a reasonable trade, yes? But would you agree to do the same with bitcoin?

[Ares]

Separate the trades six months from each other. Iow you trade 3 chicken eggs for one cup of sugar, but you agree to deliver the chicken eggs six months later, still a reasonable trade, yes? But would you agree to do the same with bitcoin?

If those were the conditions of the trade, sure thing. Once you have an agreement among parties for items being traded it's as good as a contract, and should be followed as such.

[Horn]

The author seems to think that Bitcoin is "Fiat"..... Gold and Silver are STORES OF VALUE. While currency is a medium of exchange. Yes there was a time humans used a store of value as a medium of exchange.

Oklahoma just returned Gold and Silver to legal tender currency (medium of exchange) status.

What Bitcoin is not, is money, as it has no intrinsic value.

The author was comparing Bitcoin's INTRINSIC VALUE to that of Fiat, to wit they are one and same level, bar none.

Know your apples, oranges, plums and pears, Ares.

[Ares]

Oklahoma just returned Gold and Silver to legal tender currency (medium of exchange) status.

What Bitcoin is not, is money, as it has no intrinsic value.

The author was comparing Bitcoin's INTRINSIC VALUE to that of Fiat, to wit they are one and same level, bar none.

Know your apples, oranges, plums and pears, Ares.

I do know the difference. Oklahoma, Utah, and any other state in the Union can legislate that Gold or Silver is money in their respective state until the cows come home. I don't see you, me or anyone using gold or silver in a transaction. Why would you spend gold or silver for an object when Federal Reserve Notes are just as accepted? Why spend intrinsic value when junk is widely accepted?

Is this your litmus test for competing currencies? How exactly do those states writing something into "law" that is already the law of the land change anything? I didn't see Article 1 Section 10 get removed from the U.S. Constitution with the Ratification of the 16th Amendment. So why does Utah and Oklahoma feel it necessary to say they'll accept Gold and Silver for all debts public and private when they are already able too??

Bitcoin is a MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE and a Payment Processing System. It fails to meet the intrinsic value. But so do all world currencies anymore. But you use them for commerce don't you? Or we all to believe that you really do spend gold and or silver when you go to the store or pay your taxes?

In your world Horn, how do you conduct international commerce on a Gold or Silver standard? I've asked you that before but you've never told me anything. Say we have a gold standard again, how do you pay for something in Europe or Asia? What if they aren't on a gold standard and that precious metals are illegal to own in those countries? What do you do? How do you get them your "intrinsic value"?

[hoarder]

I do know the difference. Oklahoma, Utah, and any other state in the Union can legislate that Gold or Silver is money in their respective state until the cows come home. I don't see you, me or anyone using gold or silver in a transaction. Why would you spend gold or silver for an object when Federal Reserve Notes are just as accepted? Why spend intrinsic value when junk is widely accepted?Suppose I had thousands of ounces of silver and wanted to buy some land. Suppose the land seller wanted the silver. Such a transaction would be much more expedient than enriching a bullion dealer and paying tax on the "gain".

[Serpo]

Gold and Silver are REAL ............they have true value when used in transaction.

Bitcoin on the other hand isnt in my observation ,it has no value its self but can be used in transactions all over the world because everyone agrees to it having value, but by its self it is WORTHLESS as it has no value.Very similar to fiat at the moment.

[Ares]

Suppose I had thousands of ounces of silver and wanted to buy some land. Suppose the land seller wanted the silver. Such a transaction would be much more expedient than enriching a bullion dealer and paying tax on the "gain".

Yep I agree, but outside of a FEW people who would accept Gold or silver, and the even fewer people who would part with their gold or silver in such a transaction. I still don't see why the states restating what's already there in Article 1 Section 10 will change people into thinking they'll use gold or silver in their commercial dealings.

Back in Indiana my neighbor sold 100 Acre's for over 150 head of cattle for another 200 acre parcel he turned into grazing. What capital gains was there when all the state saw was that it was a trade?

Answer = 0

[Ares]

Gold and Silver are REAL ............they have true value when used in transaction.

Bitcoin on the other hand isnt in my observation ,it has no value its self but can be used in transactions all over the world because everyone agrees to it having value, but by its self it is WORTHLESS as it has no value.Very similar to fiat at the moment.

Same question I asked of Horn. How do you go about sending that REAL value over seas? I used an Alternative Cancer treatment for an example as Germany does sell equipment that can be used, but you can't acquire in the U.S. How do you pay for that in Gold or Silver without spending more on the transaction than what the item itself is worth?

What is Intrinsic value? Is gold or silver worth that much to you if you're stranded on an island with a 1000 oz comex brick? How intrinsic is it?

Value is whatever 2 individuals agree to as a medium of exchange and how much. The ONLY reason gold and Silver were ever used was because it was THOUGHT that it would keep governments in check on their spending. Any idea on how that's worked out? They debased it anyway to the point that people accept a Debt note as a medium of exchange. An IOU.... At least with Bitcoin it wasn't borrowed into existence, and I know that no bank, or no government controls it. To me, THAT is value unto itself.

Unless of course you can persuade the governments the world over to agree to a gold standard and start relinquishing the central banks massive horde of gold locked away in bunkers....

Some how I don't think that's ever going to happen. They've cheated, conned and stolen that gold and they'll never give it to you, me or anyone unless there is another gold standard and THEY control it. But we'll never know how much they control, and slowly debase it again over time.

Yeah maybe that has value to you, but it's nothing but complete shit and fantasy to me.

[hoarder]

Yep I agree, but outside of a FEW people who would accept Gold or silver, and the even fewer people who would part with their gold or silver in such a transaction. I still don't see why the states restating what's already there in Article 1 Section 10 will change people into thinking they'll use gold or silver in their commercial dealings.

Back in Indiana my neighbor sold 100 Acre's for over 150 head of cattle for another 200 acre parcel he turned into grazing. What capital gains was there when all the state saw was that it was a trade?

Answer = 0Agree that it ain't revolutionary in impact. Every little thing helps as it educates others about metals and monetary matters....exactly what the banksters don't want. I hope Montana follows suit.

[Serpo]

Same question I asked of Horn. How do you go about sending that REAL value over seas? I used an Alternative Cancer treatment for an example as Germany does sell equipment that can be used, but you can't acquire in the U.S. How do you pay for that in Gold or Silver without spending more on the transaction than what the item is worth?

By having a crypto currency backed by SILVER and GOLD...........................

[mick silver]

is that why china buying all the gold an silver up
By having a crypto currency backed by SILVER and GOLD...........................

[EE_]

Yep I agree, but outside of a FEW people who would accept Gold or silver, and the even fewer people who would part with their gold or silver in such a transaction. I still don't see why the states restating what's already there in Article 1 Section 10 will change people into thinking they'll use gold or silver in their commercial dealings.


I've made several trades with gold and silver...I've given it and received it on the deal. And it didn't have to travel through the internet for anyone to see!

There are a lot of states that don't classify gold/silver as money and they tax the sale of it. Also, the IRS still considers a rise in gold/silver price as a capital gain and requires you to pay tax on said gains. This is why states need to restate Article 1 Section 10.

[Ares]

By having a crypto currency backed by SILVER and GOLD...........................

Then you're still relying on the same flaw that has faulted the gold standard since it's inception..... Trusting a government or institution that they'll keep the amount of gold on hand to back that currency.

Yeah we get audits, but does anyone here really think the Comex has the metals it SAYS it has? Or that Fort Knox has gold? LMAO

See the problem?

[Jewboo]

By having a crypto currency backed by SILVER and GOLD...

The fatal flaw of all crypto currencies is their "Exchanges" where they convert it back to dollars. That's where all the stealing happens.

WHO will audit the physical silver and gold that "backs" these crypto currencies?

[Serpo]

Then you're still relying on the same flaw that has faulted the gold standard since it's inception..... Trusting a government or institution that they'll keep the amount of gold on hand to back that currency.

Yeah we get audits, but does anyone here really think the Comex has the metals it SAYS it has? Or that Fort Knox has gold? LMAO

See the problem?



Only in a system that runs on lies...........which it does today



Does anyone believe Mtgox

[mick silver]

dam i was by Fort Knox today there adding more stuff to keep you from getting any of that gold ... more waste of paper

[Ares]

Only in a system that runs on lies...........which it does today



Does anyone believe Mtgox

But that's just it though. Even the founding of the U.S. was based on a lie. We didn't actually win the revolutionary war, and were still required to pay the king for the trouble of being kicked off our continent. The Treaty Of Paris outlined our repayment as one of the conditions of surrender upon the English.

Governments run on lies. Hasn't this and many other resources on the internet shown you that by now? How can you ever trust anyone let alone complete strangers to you and I to "promise" you that the gold is there?

Mt.Gox lost trust by about the 3rd hack. The only people who left their coins in there after that weren't paying attention. What you had with Mt.Gox was a digital bank run. Just some depositors thought it was safe when it wasn't.

[EE_]

The fatal flaw of all crypto currencies is their "Exchanges" where they convert it back to dollars. That's where all the stealing happens.

WHO will audit the physical silver and gold that "backs" these crypto currencies?


Wall Street is in control of cryptos now...you have nothing to worry about!

[Ares]

Wall Street is in control of cryptos now...you have nothing to worry about!

Which one? :)

http://coinchoose.com/

[Serpo]

Which one? :)

http://coinchoose.com/

They have become like a plague of mice............

[Neuro]

If those were the conditions of the trade, sure thing. Once you have an agreement among parties for items being traded it's as good as a contract, and should be followed as such.
Well the problem would be that, bitcoins can and does vary a lot in price, it changes more in price than the commodities or goods you would trade, which really makes it unsuitable to use as a contracting 'currency'. Imagine if you rented out an apartment in 2011 and you stipulated in the contract that the rent would be 5000 bitcoins a month, you would certainly end up with a default on the contract.

[Serpo]

Something else from Hugo


By Charles Hugh Smith, Of Two Minds (http://www.oftwominds.com/blog.html):
The only way to eliminate the financial parasites is to stop subsidizing their skimming and scamming, and the only way to stop subsidizing the financial parasites is to shut down the Fed.
Before I explain how the Federal Reserve has failed America, let’s do a little thought experiment. Let’s imagine that instead of creating $3.2 trillion and giving it to the banking sector to play with–funding carry trades and high-frequency trading, for example–the Fed had invested in carry trades itself and returned the profits directly to taxpayers.
Before we go through the math, let’s recall how a carry trade works: Financiers borrow billions at near-zero interest from the Fed and then use the free money to buy bonds in other countries where the return is (say) 5%. The financiers are skimming 4.75% or more for doing nothing other than having access to the Fed’s free money.
If the bonds rise in value (because interest rates decline in the nation issuing the bonds), the financiers skim additional profit. If the trade can be leveraged via derivatives, then the annual return can be bumped up from 5% to 10%.
OK, back to the experiment. The Fed created $3.2 trillion in its quantitative easing (QE) programs. let’s say the Fed’s money managers (or gunslingers hired by the Fed to handle the trading) earn around 5% annually with various low-risk carry trades.
http://www.oftwominds.com/photos2014/usfed-sum2-14.png





That works out to an annual profit of $160 billion (5% of $3.2 trillion). Now let’s say the Fed divvied the profit up among everyone who paid Social Security taxes the previous year. That’s around 140 million wage earners. Every person who paid Social Security taxes would receive $1,100 from the Fed’s carry trade profits.
The point of this experiment is to suggest that there were plenty of things the Fed could have done with its $3.2 trillion that would have directly benefited taxpaying Americans, but instead the Fed funneled all those profits to financiers and banks.
The Fed apologists claim that lowering interest rates to zero benefited American who saw their interest payments decline. Nice, but not necessarily true. Try asking a student paying 9% for his student loans how much his interest rate dropped due to Fed policy. Or ask someone paying 19.9% in credit card interest (gotta love that .1% that keeps it under 20%)–how much did your interest drop as a result of Fed policy?
Answer: zip, zero, nada. The Fed’s zero interest rate policy (ZIRP)funneled profits to the banks, not to borrowers.
And let’s not forget that many Americans chose not to borrow at all. What did the Fed do for them? It stole the interest they once earned on their savings.Estimates vary, but it is clear that the Fed’s ZIRP transferred hundreds of billions of dollars in interest to the banking sector, income forceably “donated” by savers to the banks.
Lowering interest rates to zero is effectively a forced subsidy of borrowers by savers. But that’s not the only subsidy: who makes money from originating and managing loans? Banks. The more loans that are originated, the higher the transaction fees and profits flowing to banks. So incentivizing borrowing generates more profits for banks.
Humans make decisions based on the incentives and disincentives in place at the time of their decision. Lowering the cost of money (interest) to zero creates an incentive to gamble the money on low-yield bets. After all, if you can earn 3% on the free money, then why not skim the free 3%?
If speculators had to pay 6% for money and 7.5% for mortgages (the going rate in the go-go 1990s), then the number of available carry trades plummets.The only carry trades that make sense when you’re paying 6% for money are those with yields of 10%–and any bond paying 10% carries a high risk of default (otherwise, the issuer wouldn’t have to offer such a high rate of interest to lure buyers).
All of these incentives to borrow money at zero interest rate are only available to banks and financiers. And that’s the point of the Fed’s policies: to stripmine the bottom 99.5% and transfer the wealth to banks and financiers. Lowering interest rates to zero incentivizes carry trades and speculative bets that do absolutely nothing for America or the bottom 99.5% of taxpayers.
A self-employed worker pays 50% more tax than a hedge funder skimming billions of dollars in carry trades. A self-employed worker pays 15.3% in Social Security and Medicare taxes and a minimum of 15% Federal income tax for a minimum of 30.3%. (The higher your income, the higher your tax rate, which quickly rises to 25% and up.) The hedge funder pays no Social Security tax at all because the carry trade profits are “long-term capital gains” which are taxed at 15% (20% if the Hedgie skims more than $400,000 a year).
Despite the Fed apologists’ claims that ZIRP and free money handed to banks and financiers create jobs and start businesses, there is absolutely no evidence to support this claim. The only beneficiaries of Fed policies are tax accountants for the banks and financiers and luxury auto dealerships. Since Porsches and Maseratis are not made in the U.S., the benefits of the top .5% buying costly gew-gaws and evading taxes is extremely limited.
Attention, all apologists, lackeys, toadies, minions and factotums of the Fed: is there any plausible explanation for the wealthiest .5% pulling away from everyone else since the Fed launched ZIRP and QE other than Fed policies? And while we’re at it, how about publishing a verifiable list of companies that were founded and now employ hundreds of people because the owners could borrow millions of dollars at zero interest?
http://www.oftwominds.com/photos2014/wealth3-14.jpg
Get real–no new business can borrow Fed money for zero interest. The only entities that can borrow the Fed’s free money are banks and other financial parasites.
The truth is the Fed incentivizes and rewards the most parasitic, least productive sector of the economy and forcibly transfers the interest that was once earned by the productive middle class to the parasites. Though the multitudes of apologists, lackeys, toadies, minions and factotums of the Fed will frantically deny it, the inescapable truth is that the nation and the bottom 99.5% would be instantly and forever better off were the Fed closed down and its assets liquidated.
The only way to eliminate the financial parasites is to stop subsidizing their skimming and scamming, and the only way to stop subsidizing the financial parasites is to shut down the Fed.
http://www.silverdoctors.com/how-the-fed-has-failed-america-part-2/#more-39963http://www.oftwominds.com/photos2014/wealth-distribution3-14.png

[Ares]

Well the problem would be that, bitcoins can and does vary a lot in price, it changes more in price than the commodities or goods you would trade, which really makes it unsuitable to use as a contracting 'currency'. Imagine if you rented out an apartment in 2011 and you stipulated in the contract that the rent would be 5000 bitcoins a month, you would certainly end up with a default on the contract.

There have been instances of that already. Butterfly labs which is an ASIC manufacturer accepts Bitcoins for their hardware. Their initial generation 1 ASIC's at the time went for like 100+ Bitcoins. By the time they delivered the value of a Bitcon had sky rocketed. so that those 100+ bitcoins were literally thousands of dollars.

So its' been agreed upon in the community that if you buy or sell anything at the current time and value of a Bitcoin, then that is what is agreed. It doesn't matter if it goes up or down. So if Madfranks and I had an agreement that in 6 months I owe him 1 Bitcoin.. I Owe him 1 bitcoin. It could just as easily go down as well as up.

The same would be an ounce of gold or silver. Do you care what the dollar value is? You agreed on an ounce for a trade did you not? You expect an ounce. It matters not that Silver went down and that previous ounce is now worth 2 ounces than when the initial trade took place. It works the same with digital currencies.

That's why Payment processing companies like Coinbase, and Bitpay exist. To remove the volatility from the transaction for the seller and buyer. They (The payment processor) assume those risk and or reward.

[Neuro]

There have been instances of that already. Butterfly labs which is an ASIC manufacturer accepts Bitcoins for their hardware. Their initial generation 1 ASIC's at the time went for like 100+ Bitcoins. By the time they delivered the value of a Bitcon had sky rocketed. so that those 100+ bitcoins were literally thousands of dollars.

So its' been agreed upon in the community that if you buy or sell anything at the current time and value of a Bitcoin, then that is what is agreed. It doesn't matter if it goes up or down. So if Madfranks and I had an agreement that in 6 months I owe him 1 Bitcoin.. I Owe him 1 bitcoin. It could just as easily go down as well as up.

The same would be an ounce of gold or silver. Do you care what the dollar value is? You agreed on an ounce for a trade did you not? You expect an ounce. It matters not that Silver went down and that previous ounce is now worth 2 ounces than when the initial trade took place. It works the same with digital currencies.

That's why Payment processing companies like Coinbase, and Bitpay exist. To remove the volatility from the transaction for the seller and buyer. They assume those risk and or reward.
Who will bail them out when they fail?

[Ares]

Who will bail them out when they fail?

The same people who bailed out Mt.Gox. No one.

But they have very little risk, as they give the seller / buyer 15 minutes (The time starts at the moment a wallet is generated to receive the transaction usually towards the end of checkout) to complete the transaction at the current Bitcoin price. Once the transaction is complete, coinbase, and or bitpay will either sell an equal amount of bitcoin on the open market for the going price to give their client cash in the account. Or they'll deposit the bitcoin into the sellers wallet. Which ever method the seller preferred to receive payment is how they receive it. Most transaction under 1 million are free at coinbase (I THINK, it's been awhile since I've read their documentation) and Bitpay ask for 0.5% - 1% transaction fee's.

Those are huge savings over credit cards which are 2-3% on average.

[Horn]

In your world Horn, how do you conduct international commerce on a Gold or Silver standard?

Send a Moneygram.


An oft-cited concern with crypto-currency is that it is not backed by anything “real.”

NoFiatCoin (XNF) (http://www.nofiatcoin.com/) is a digital currency backed by gold and silver bullion. The idea is to combine the benefits of digital currency with the relative security of precious metals.

At least one-third of every batch of XNF released into the market is backed by gold and silver coins. The transactions happen through Ripple, “the world’s open payment system.” You create a Ripple wallet, and buy XNF with U.S. dollars through Bitstamp, or exchange Bitcoins for XNF through Ripple. When you want to cash out, XNF will mail you (as in, physical mail) the value in coins.

http://venturebeat.com/2014/02/14/new-digital-currency-has-old-school-backing-from-gold-and-silver/

[Ares]

Send a Moneygram.

If gold or silver is the standard. What's the cost on insuring that type of transaction? :)


NoFiatCoin is a great idea, and honestly I like it. But we've already seen how that will work out. Centrally controlled or backed is a lynchpin they'll use to crush it. Just like they did with Liberty Dollar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar).

We all know Bernard von NotHaus was not the con man that the government tried to paint him to be. If NoFiatCoin is based in the U.S. the creators can expect the same treatment.... Unfortunately..

[EE_]

NoFiatCoin is a great idea, and honestly I like it. But we've already seen how that will work out. Centrally controlled or backed is a lynchpin they'll use to crush it. Just like they did with Liberty Dollar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar).

Well all know Bernard von NotHaus was not the con man that the government tried to paint him to be. If NoFiatCoin is based in the U.S. the creators can expect the same treatment.... Unfortunately..

So, if it's a threat to the government/Fed they'll crush it, and if it's not a threat you're good to go.
Is that what I gather here?

[Ares]

So, if it's a threat to the government/Fed they'll crush it, and if it's not a threat you're good to go.
Is that what I gather here?

For the most part yeah. The other issue I have is that you're still relying on the creators to store, account and publish their precious metals holdings and be honest about it.

The creators may have the greatest of intentions, but given enough time it will be cooped, corrupted and end up not even resembling the original creators intent.

[Horn]

Corrupted and end up not even resembling the original creators intent.

Why would you try to hold onto your moneygram receipts after you've received your money?

Tax purposes?

What happened to the great idea in post #30?

Who cares what the creators intent is?

[Neuro]

The same people who bailed out Mt.Gox. No one.

But they have very little risk, as they give the seller / buyer 15 minutes (The time starts at the moment a wallet is generated to receive the transaction usually towards the end of checkout) to complete the transaction at the current Bitcoin price. Once the transaction is complete, coinbase, and or bitpay will either sell an equal amount of bitcoin on the open market for the going price to give their client cash in the account. Or they'll deposit the bitcoin into the sellers wallet. Which ever method the seller preferred to receive payment is how they receive it. Most transaction under 1 million are free at coinbase (I THINK, it's been awhile since I've read their documentation) and Bitpay ask for 0.5% - 1% transaction fee's.

Those are huge savings over credit cards which are 2-3% on average.
Yes, but we were talking about a seller delivering 6 mths in the future. Will they be paid Immediatelly?

[Horn]

Could you imagine if Bitcoin were used for its true value, as a whore and utility conduit to transfer real items such as Gold and Silver,

Oh my gosh what a terrible God we would unleash!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shLlKb1AqkE

[EE_]

Right now there's 163 crypto's trading. How many do you think there will be by the end of the year? 1,630?

[Ares]

Right now there's 163 crypto's trading. How many do you think there will be by the end of the year? 1,630?

Your guess is as good as mine. All I can say is sit back and enjoy the ride. About all anyone can do whether they are taking part or not. It's still an interesting technology to watch.

[Horn]

Right now there's 163 crypto's trading. How many do you think there will be by the end of the year? 1,630?

And most all are easily convertable to the the fifth decimal place, which is actually more fiat then fiat could ever hope to be.

Fiat starts out as coinage.

[1970 silver art]

Right now there's 163 crypto's trading. How many do you think there will be by the end of the year? 1,630? Actually there are currently 173 crypto currencies out there. http://coinmarketcap.com/all.html

[Sparky]

The author seems to think that Bitcoin is "Fiat". The author would have more credibility if he actually understood the words he was using.

Of course Bitcoin is fiat. Fiat is a declaration of something representing value beyond its intrinsic value. Bitcoin has no true asset value. It's not even backed by the servers on which it is mined. I'd say it's less of a tangible asset than paper money. I can write on paper money, or burn it for heat or light. It has some small asset value.



If I want to buy something from Madfranks we settle on a price of a digital unit, and I send it to him, he then sends me what I wanted to purchase. How is that any different than saying if we lived next door to each other and traded 2-3 chicken eggs for a cup of sugar?

It's different because both the eggs and the sugar have tangible asset value. Their value is intrinsic, rather than a representation of something else.

[Ares]

Of course Bitcoin is fiat. Fiat is a declaration of something representing value beyond its intrinsic value. Bitcoin has no true asset value. It's not even backed by the servers on which it is mined. I'd say it's less of a tangible asset than paper money. I can write on paper money, or burn it for heat or light. It has some small asset value.

Nope.. Fiat = By decree. You can call it whatever helps you rationalize your distaste of digital currency. But NO ONE is decreeing Bitcoin. No one is forcing you to accept it. No one is decreeing it to be legal tender.

You people put too much emphasis on "intrinsic value". WTF is intrinsic value anyway? I've read accounts of Amazon tribes wanting nothing to do with gold or silver they want food. So what is intrinsic value to you, is absolutely worthless to someone else. Intrinsic value is SUBJECTIVE. Always has been, ALWAYS WILL BE. You don't want to see the VALUE of a completely decentralized system outside government control. You don't want to see the VALUE of sending something to someone in an instant that to them represents VALUE. You don't want to see the VALUE of a payment system with a very low barrier of entry, that's fine. You can be as stubborn, defiant, and nitpicking subjective terminology to best fit your distaste that's fine by me. But don't call it fiat, when you know damn well that no one is decreeing, declaring, or mandating anything in regards to crypto currencies. To call it fiat is to satisfy your wanton desire to devalue, ridicule, and degenerate a technology you want nothing to do with.



It's different because both the eggs and the sugar have tangible asset value. Their value is intrinsic, rather than a representation of something else.

So who are you to tell others what they can or cannot value as a transaction in a medium of exchange?

[Sparky]

Ares, I see the value of a decentralized currency system. That's the good part about Bitcoin. And I will accept your point that no one has decreed it's value. So my argument should really be restricted to what I don't like about it. I don't like that there's no physical representation, which makes it too dependent upon technology. I don't like that it's creators benefited from it by early/easy mining. I don't like that it's too "copy-able" by other digital variants, which dilutes any individual digital currency. I don't like that it's not "natural" in the way that its finite availability is artificial and man-made. But I'll agree not to call it fiat.

[Ares]

Ares, I see the value of a decentralized currency system. That's the good part about Bitcoin. And I will accept your point that no one has decreed it's value. So my argument should really be restricted to what I don't like about it. I don't like that there's no physical representation, which makes it too dependent upon technology. I don't like that it's creators benefited from it by early/easy mining. I don't like that it's too "copy-able" by other digital variants, which dilutes any individual digital currency. I don't like that it's not "natural" in the way that its finite availability is artificial and man-made. But I'll agree not to call it fiat.

There are things I don't like about Bitcoin either. Most of them being technical in nature. Such as confirmation times. 10 minutes per block confirmation means that if your transaction gets put into the next block it'll take an hour (6 confirmations required to make sure the transaction isn't double spent, and to verify it was a legitimate private key that signed the transaction.) No one is going to wait an hour at the check out of a gas station or grocery store for them to verify that it is a legitimate transaction. I feel that that is it's biggest obstacle to adoption on a wider basis utilizing private transactions without the use of a payment processor like Bitpay or Coinbase. I don't like all the Bitcoin / Litecoin clones coming along either where each developer feels they can make a quick buck then abandon it on the people who believed in the initial selling point idea behind it. As much as I don't like the clones, I do realize that it is the free market doing what it does best. Weeding out the weak, leaving the strong. Will Bitcoin be the winner? It's tough to say. It definitely showed what is possible without centralized control over money which is an idea we've all advocated for since the days I joined GIM.

To me decentralization is the currencies value, or at least the idea of a decentralized medium of exchange. Gold used to be decentralized too, it was cooped, and corrupted and now serves a different master than what it was intended to do. It was enslaved, and since then its masters have enslaved the rest of us. I would love nothing more than to use a currency like gold and silver in my commercial and private dealings. But I've come to realize that will never happen in our lifetimes. I never foresaw something like Bitcoin upsetting their empire of intimidation and control. Hell when I first heard about it, I passed it off as a scam myself. Pretty sure I even said on here when I first heard about it from Shami that it wouldn't do anything and would be proven to be worthless.

Yep, I was wrong. It's not so much that Bitcoin is just a digital representation no more physical or intrinsic as the words that I type here on this screen. But it's value lies in the same category.... Ideas..... Words are of little to no value unless put together in a sentence or paragraph to describe an idea, or thought. Does that idea or thought represent value? It depends on if you think the idea or thought answers a question, relays knowledge or experience, and if you find the information of substance. Bitcoin is no more valuable than the idea of a decentralized medium of exchange without government controls or restrictions.

[Horn]

But I'll agree not to call it fiat.

Call it fiat-lite, with less intrinsic value.

[Neuro]

Actually there are currently 173 crypto currencies out there. http://coinmarketcap.com/all.html
Blythe is back!

[Serpo]

WTF is intrinsic value anyway?

Something that has value in its self. ie GOLD/SILVER

When I buy something then what I have in my hand ie gold/silver is worth what i am buying in its own right.

Unlike everything else unless you trade or barter for goods.

Gold and silver are very fundamental and whether they have the same flexibility as other mediums today Im not sure.

[Serpo]

Blythe is back!


He is going to make a move on Ponces whole TP stash this time,last time was just bait.............hehe

[Neuro]

He is going to make a move on Ponces whole TP stash this time,last time was just bait.............hehe
Hide it Ponce, hide it!

[1970 silver art]

Blythe is back! Blythe is back at JPM? I thought that Blythe left JPM and to try to join CFTC but got blocked by Twitter. You mean she got a position on the CFTC after all????

[1970 silver art]

He is going to make a move on Ponces whole TP stash this time,last time was just bait.............heheI am a male and ,if I am not mistaken, Blythe is a female. For some reason, you are confusing me with Blythe. I am not qualified to work for the CFTC. Hahahahahaha!!!!!!! Thanks for the laugh. :) As for Ponce's TP stash, I really did not want it. He knows that I was right on December 31, 2011 since he was kind enough to admit it on this forum back then. Bragging rights is money. :)

[1970 silver art]

I also want to say that to the title of this thread, it may be true that we cannot get away from gold and silver but I also am starting to think that cryptos are here for good and will not go away IMO. Whether it will continue to be bitcoin or some other alt crypto that will overtake Bitcoin, cryptos in general are here to stay. Just my opinion.

[Neuro]

Blythe is back at JPM? I thought that Blythe left JPM and to try to join CFTC but got blocked by Twitter. You mean she got a position on the CFTC after all????
Your feigned innocence is quite charming Blythe! But I haven't forgotten your amazing 'gut feelings'... What was your last one? No $50 silver until 2015? Any new 'gut feelings' that you can tell us about Miss Masters? ;D

[Ares]

Something that has value in its self. ie GOLD/SILVER

When I buy something then what I have in my hand ie gold/silver is worth what i am buying in its own right.

Unlike everything else unless you trade or barter for goods.

Gold and silver are very fundamental and whether they have the same flexibility as other mediums today Im not sure.

But the value onto itself is relative. What you may think it is worth is different than what someone else think it is worth. As an example, watch the show Pawn Stars on History channel. People bring in gold and silver all the time for sale, but try to get above market price constantly.

What I'm trying to say is that value is subjective. Nothing is intrinsic other than food, shelter, and clothing. My example of earlier, abandoned on a deserted island. How valuable do you think a 1000 ounce bar of gold is if your concern is not starving to death?

[Neuro]

I think you have to be Jewish to swim ashore with a 1000 oz gold bar...

But of course gold is dependent on others putting a value on it, it is not worth anything if you don't have anyone to trade it with... The advantage with gold is that it has been recognized as valuable for several thousands of years by most people, and that it is tangible, and it will remain gold. The value it would have to the person on the deserted island is that the person would be a rich man if he makes it off the island some day, so it would provide some added hope and motivation perhaps. You would be less certain of that if you had 2000 bitcoins in a wallet, who knows what it would be worth 20-30 years down the line...

[Ares]

I think you have to be Jewish to swim ashore with a 1000 oz gold bar...

But of course gold is dependent on others putting a value on it, it is not worth anything if you don't have anyone to trade it with... The advantage with gold is that it has been recognized as valuable for several thousands of years by most people, and that it is tangible, and it will remain gold. The value it would have to the person on the deserted island is that the person would be a rich man if he makes it off the island some day, so it would provide some added hope and motivation perhaps. You would be less certain of that if you had 2000 bitcoins in a wallet, who knows what it would be worth 20-30 years down the line...

With free market mediums of exchange like crypto currencies. There's no telling what those coins will be worth next week, let alone in 20-30 years. lol

[Hitch]

I don't like that there's no physical representation, which makes it too dependent upon technology. I don't like that it's creators benefited from it by early/easy mining. I don't like that it's too "copy-able" by other digital variants, which dilutes any individual digital currency. I don't like that it's not "natural" in the way that its finite availability is artificial and man-made. But I'll agree not to call it fiat.

I wonder how long before .gov deems all crypto currencies fraud. Obama needs to win one for the team. He may decide that we need to be saved from ourselves, and come out with a .gov approved and controlled crypto, obamacoin.

[mick silver]

silly boys gold is not for you it;s for the bankers . the bankers tell me gold is not money .

[Ares]

silly boys gold is not for you it;s for the bankers . the bankers tell me gold is not money .

Gold is most certainly money. But WHO's money? Is really the question. :)

[mick silver]

ares we all know this but getting all the others on this ship would be a big help

[Ares]

ares we all know this but getting all the others on this ship would be a big help

Even if we did, and had half of the population clambering for gold. They still wouldn't release it to be used as money outside of their control. Look what happens every time a nation state goes belly up. TPTB (or were in that sense) take the gold from the country. If a large percentage wanted gold, I feel that would do it under a guise of "hey we're releasing gold from such and such place." Then poof it vanishes along with them to another non extradition country..

[1970 silver art]

Your feigned innocence is quite charming Blythe! But I haven't forgotten your amazing 'gut feelings'... What was your last one? No $50 silver until 2015? Any new 'gut feelings' that you can tell us about Miss Masters? ;D
Neuro, I like your sense of humor. Thanks for making me laugh. :) Although, I am not sure why you and others are confusing me with Blythe. There were two people on GSUS that met me in person and the people who were in chat when I did audio chat know what I sound like. I do not look like nor do I sound like Blythe Masters. :) I just wanted to clear that up. As for my "No $50 silver until 2015" gut feeling prediction, I think that it is safe to say that I will be right given the fact that spot is in the $21 range but I moved on to another gut feeling that I had and that is this..................Within 3 years from now, I see silver at $8 (or lower) and gold well under $1000/oz. I think that we will take out the 2013 silver intra-day low of $18.14 and possibly break $16 on the downside this year. As always, this is my gut feeling speaking to me and I have absolutely nothing to back up my gut feeling with.

[1970 silver art]

I wonder how long before .gov deems all crypto currencies fraud. Obama needs to win one for the team. He may decide that we need to be saved from ourselves, and come out with a .gov approved and controlled crypto, obamacoin.That is hard to say Hitch. Being that it is dencentralized, it will be hard (if not impossible) for the gov't to control if even if they ban it. No one really knows if/when/how cryptos will be regulated and no one really knows how much they will be worth in $ price.

[1970 silver art]

With free market mediums of exchange like crypto currencies. There's no telling what those coins will be worth next week, let alone in 20-30 years. lolBeing that it is a relatively young unregulated decentralized market, it is hard to say what will happen. The free marketplace will ultimately determine if bitcoin will continue to be the top crypto or not. The free marketplace will also determine which cryptos will "die" and go away. One thing that I think is safe to say is that cryptos are here to stay. It is just a question of which one(s) will be the top dog and will be in demand from consumers.

[mick silver]

when silver hits 8 there will no more stuff coming out of china and as far as the usa it will be done also . just to many things made out of silver and more new stuff everyday being added to the silver list

[EE_]

It will be interesting to see where bitcoin goes now that the bankers will be running all the exchanges.
They can smell money like a shark smells blood...and oh, yes, there will be taxes to be paid!
Interesting how the largest exchange got hacked out of existence and Wall Street bankers step right in behind it.

Some of you speak of "free markets/free market place"...you do know that corruption, manipulation, bribery, destroying the competition and murder are all part of a free market.

You'll never see Wall Street bankers promoting gold/silver exchanges for the masses.

Bitcoin is coming to Wall Street

Zach Miners
@zachminers Mar 11, 2014 12:12 PM

New York financial authorities said Tuesday that they would soon begin accepting applications for virtual currency exchanges including those dealing in bitcoins, in a sign of regulators’ growing interest in the technology.

Approved applications will ultimately have to adhere to a proposed regulatory framework that New York plans to enact for virtual currency firms operating in the state. That framework will be developed no later by the end of June, New York’s Department of Financial Services announced Tuesday.

New York recently held hearings on a proposed regulatory framework. Financial regulators in the state started looking at the use of Bitcoin and other virtual currencies last year.

News of the regulations comes following the fall of Tokyo-based Mt. Gox, previously the largest exchange for buying and selling bitcoins, likely due to a hacking attack and mismanagement.

"The recent problems at Mt. Gox and other firms further demonstrate the urgent need for stronger oversight of virtual currency exchanges, including robust standards for consumer protection, cyber security, and anti-money laundering compliance,” said Benjamin M. Lawksy, New York’s superintendent of financial services, in a statement.

"BitLicensing" in the offing
The state’s regulations could include the development of a “BitLicense” for virtual currency firms operating in the state. New York’s department of financial services is also looking to consider applications for other types of virtual currency firms beyond exchanges, which may include payment processors or storage services.

Companies may immediately submit formal proposals and applications to operate virtual currency exchanges to help expedite the process of establishing greater oversight for the industry, the department said.

The process for evaluating the proposals may include discussions with the department to ensure that the exchanges include robust consumer, cyber security and anti-money laundering protections, the department said.

In explaining its move, the department cited risks associated with a technology that are unlikely to go away. “Turning a blind eye and failing to put in place guardrails for virtual currency firms while consumers use that product is simply not a tenable strategy for regulators,” Lawsky said.

The Bitcoin Foundation, a nonprofit which advocates for the use of Bitcoin, did not immediately respond to comment on New York’s announcement.


Bitcoin exchange for high-frequency traders is launched
March 12, 2014, 10:19 a.m. EDT
Perseus Telecom, Atlas ATS collaborate on system for institutional investors
By Michael Casey

High-speed telecommunications provider Perseus Telecom and digital currency trading platform Atlas ATS formally launched Wednesday a globally integrated bitcoin exchange system in New York, Hong Kong and Singapore to facilitate trading in the digital currency by high-frequency trading firms and other large financial institutions.

The two firms’ collaboration, first reported last month by The Wall Street Journal, marks a milestone in the evolution of bitcoin out of a retail-oriented, loosely regulated low-tech environment to one that is open to the high-volume and strictly regulated activities of Wall Street. It comes after the sudden collapse of Tokyo-based bitcoin exchange Mt. Gox, which said it had lost 850,000 bitcoin—now worth more than $500 million—and a string of scandals, including a world-wide hacking attack that temporarily paralyzed Mt. Gox competitors such as Slovenia-based Bitstamp.

“Now, institutional investors and banks can see that there are known players with the right pedigree” engaged in bitcoin, said Jock Percy, chief executive officer of Perseus, whose high-bandwidth lines are used to connect securities exchanges around the world with institutional investors’ trade execution platforms. He said Perseus’s high-speed trading clients had expressed demand for such services, but needed assurances that such systems are compliant with their industry’s demanding regulatory requirements, and that the systems use fast-response technology that can meet their risk-limit requirements in high volume.

None of that is currently available for bitcoin trading, Percy said. Whereas most bitcoin exchanges reside on cloud-based servers that he says are “inherently glitchy,” Atlas ATS’s platform will be located within a robust, dedicated network, Percy added.

Atlas ATS CEO Shawn Sloves said the exchange integration across multiple locations will add liquidity to the trading pool for bitcoin by creating a single, global order book that gets around what he calls a “regionally focused, very fragmented” bitcoin trading environment that is “not considered Wall Street grade.” The network will incorporate both a private market, where bids and offers among members of a pool are kept outside the public domain, and a public market that broadcasts live, real-time prices, he said.

[mick silver]

ee just how many bitcoin do you own now , come on man . get in before there no more left for you

[EE_]

ee just how many bitcoin do you own now , come on man . get in before there no more left for you

I don't own any because I don't like that they are not anonymous, they are not money and they are controlled by bankers.

Bitcoin is a payment system that transfers government currencies. They are considered to be like a commodity and therefore will be subject to capitol gains taxes.

I'm on the iOWNme program, and I don't IMAGINE there's an 'Athority'.
Bitcoin users may need and support having an 'Authority', but it goes totally against the iOWNme principle.

[Horn]

The main lie, lies in the notion that all value is notional.

Hollow men and cyclops.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcP3NOCeiE

[Serpo]

Your feigned innocence is quite charming Blythe! But I haven't forgotten your amazing 'gut feelings'... What was your last one? No $50 silver until 2015? Any new 'gut feelings' that you can tell us about Miss Masters? ;D


The only feelings we have had since 50$ is gutted feelings................ha

[Neuro]

Neuro, I like your sense of humor. Thanks for making me laugh. :) Although, I am not sure why you and others are confusing me with Blythe. There were two people on GSUS that met me in person and the people who were in chat when I did audio chat know what I sound like. I do not look like nor do I sound like Blythe Masters. :) I just wanted to clear that up. As for my "No $50 silver until 2015" gut feeling prediction, I think that it is safe to say that I will be right given the fact that spot is in the $21 range but I moved on to another gut feeling that I had and that is this..................Within 3 years from now, I see silver at $8 (or lower) and gold well under $1000/oz. I think that we will take out the 2013 silver intra-day low of $18.14 and possibly break $16 on the downside this year. As always, this is my gut feeling speaking to me and I have absolutely nothing to back up my gut feeling with.
Who was the last one who saw you? K-os? Hmmm... She conveniently "disappeared" after that... Sub-8 you say... At this point anything is possible with paper silver.

[1970 silver art]

Who was the last one who saw you? K-os? Hmmm... She conveniently "disappeared" after that... Sub-8 you say... At this point anything is possible with paper silver.K-os was the last person to see me in person. Before I came here, I have not posted here in about 15 months so I do not know why K-os decided to not post on GSUS. I hope that she is doing well and enjoying life.

[Serpo]

Who was the last one who saw you? K-os? Hmmm... She conveniently "disappeared" after that... Sub-8 you say... At this point anything is possible with paper silver.


Considering it costs 20$ to mine it an OZ

[Neuro]

Considering it costs 20$ to mine it an OZ
Paper silver?

[Serpo]

Paper silver?


Real silver

[Horn]

Silver kills Masons, and Masons kill forums.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY-r66Jwl80