The likely outcome from listening to a 'CCW expert'

[midnight rambler]

The problem is largely stupid people taking a 'concealed carry' course from someone who holds themselves out to be an 'expert'. Generally that 'expert' is some 'legal expert' and someone who has no real up close and personal combat experience where they were compelled to utilize deadly force (outside of a bona fide battlefield)*. And the 'expert' advice they render is founded on "when can I 'legally' use lethal force?" rather than developing skill sets focused primarily on "how do I 'read' situations which *may* morph into a potential problem for me, how do I AVOID problems entirely, and when I DO encounter a problem HOW do I SAFELY extricate myself without causing myself a shitload of grief?"** (one of my very seasoned instructors [an actual combat vet] advised me to, "Be a man of many options." [he was the one who originally got me started on the "ALWAYS read your immediate set of circumstances and be prepared to extricate yourself early on BEFORE you have a problem you have to deal with" path] while another [another seasoned combat vet] advised, "[Learn to] Run with confidence" [as in if some asshole catches up to you while you're doing your best to escape the kill zone it WILL CERTAINLY be fatal for them, IOW you're not running as a result of fear]).

*a real expert would spend 10% of the course on 'the law' (statutes) and 90% on "This is what you need to know regarding your conduct so you don't get all tangled up with 'the law' (as a result of having to shoot someone)." any real 'expert' EMPHASIZES disengagement always RATHER THAN the use of deadly force (i.e. exercise ANY option other than having to shoot, however this requires some forethought and intelligence which apparently some 'experts' lack)

**these are merely generic examples in no particular order, this forum is not the place to go into these sort of details for the purposes of OPSEC

This guy's (not the aggressor, the one who was the target of the aggressor) mistake is that he unassed his automobile. (actually, both of them would likely have lived had NEITHER of them unassed their cars) -

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/268289/280/Enraged-drivers-shoot-kill-each-other

[midnight rambler]

FWIW, when it gets down to that very moment of having to defend one's self or someone else with deadly force the ONLY 'law' applicable is the Law of Necessity. Everything else is extraneous bullshit.

[midnight rambler]

A couple of things an 'expert' will probably never impart to his 'students' (aka the rubes):

1) NEVER allow the fear of death to have a grip on you EVER, be at peace and be ready to meet your maker AT ANY TIME

2) "Learn to take your time in a hurry." --Wyatt Earp (the one thing that DESPITE all their intensive training very few donut munchers get - which is why more often than not they empty their mags and only manage to hit the shootee a couple of times*, i.e. when they're not being a very heavily armed pack of psychopathic jackals hunting down some unarmed homeless guy** INTENT ON KILLING HIM, throwing a flash bang at him and sicing the K9 on him)

*of course this generally only occurs when the shootee has a gun pointed at them and they're all soiling their trousers, whereas when they're stalking/shooting someone 'for sport', e.g. the homeless guy in NM, THEN they take their time for shot placement (plus it helps that they have long arms with optical sights for the 'kill' FROM A RANGE OF 10-12 YARDS [I bet that was a real challenge for 'em])

**the NATURAL responses to violent aggression are fight or flight, standing in place passively and allowing someone to visit extreme violence on you would require enough presence of mind to override the NATURAL responses and most folks lack that discipline (it ain't easy) since very few have ever considered finding themselves in such a situation; only genuine cowards would NATURALLY allow someone to visit extreme violence upon them while passively standing there and taking it 'CAUSE IT'S FAR REMOVED FROM WHAT REASONABLE PEOPLE WOULD NATURALLY DO - imo

[madfranks]

Good thread midnight, thanks.

[midnight rambler]

A couple of more things any 'ccw expert' is unlikely to advise you on is the fine art of camouflage for one, i.e. 'what you see is what you get' - another way of deterring any bad guys 'cause 1) they don't perceive any gain in attacking you and/or 2) they are uncertain about the softness/hardness of their target. And the other thing is how to quickly recognize, assess, and respond to those with no compunction whatsoever about harming you.

[midnight rambler]

Thanks Donald Trump, at least this is a start -


...

IIRC you posted that anyone who fails to take a CCW course is stupid, or something to that effect.

In the OP I linked to a report of an incident which is a glaring example of the sort of sheer stupidity that entails when one takes a state sanctioned 'CCW course' and then they cling to the cherished delusion that they are now well advised on how to conduct themselves.

Donald why don't you share with us the name of the instructor who instilled all this confidence and bravado in you?

[7th trump]

You were just reported.
Please remove the post Midnight.............you have no business doing what you did.

I didn't post in this thread....remove the post as its mischaracterizing.

[Uncle Salty]

Smooth is fast in a gun fight.

And if you have never been in a gun fight....

The best gun fighters are typically in their fifties. By that age, you aren't all jacked up with testosterone. You can assess the situation without getting all hyped up.

Don't fuck with old people.

[midnight rambler]

Mischaracterizing? Indeed. This coming from someone who accuses me of being a 'Soviet'* while you hold the Ten Planks in a position superior to the Ten Commandments. Gawd how I love irony. You're such a hoot. Thanks again for the yuks! (*I dare say there are far more 'Soviets'/Bolsheviks in the US now than in Russia)

Not only are you a drama queen, it appears to me you're one of these derelict morons who can't wait for the shooting to start. With regards to your "if you don't take a CCW course you're a dumbass (or something to that effect)" assertions, you remind me of some child who only recently discovered self-gratification and now all of a sudden is a sage expert on all things having to do with sex. lol

[midnight rambler]

Regarding the incident with the two Michigan CCW licensees who managed to shoot each other to death - the EIGHT HOUR COURSE requirement for CCW licensees in Michigan didn't do either of them a whole lot of good did it?? No, the fact is that these 'CCW courses' ONLY address the 'legal' side of things (as in WHEN can I LEGALLY shoot someone) and as a result of that many people fail to conduct themselves APPROPRIATELY. IMO, the 'victim' in the link in the OP drew that set of deadly circumstances to himself LIKE A MAGNET 'cause his thinking was "I'm armed so don't fuck with me" and consequently he most likely brake checked* the guy who ended up starting the violent incident thus their attitudes threw them together and they died together.

*when someone tailgates me my response is one of "let me hurry up and get the hell out of your way because you're obviously in a much greater hurry than me."


The best gun fighters are typically in their fifties. By that age, you aren't all jacked up with testosterone. You can assess the situation without getting all hyped up.

Don't fuck with old people.

Something I learned many years ago is don't be messing with people 'cause you NEVER KNOW who you're messing with and WHAT they're capable of.

[7th trump]

Mischaracterizing? Indeed. This coming from someone who accuses me of being a 'Soviet'* while you hold the Ten Planks in a position superior to the Ten Commandments. Gawd how I love irony. You're such a hoot. Thanks again for the yuks! (*I dare say there are far more 'Soviets'/Bolsheviks in the US now than in Russia)

Not only are you a drama queen, it appears to me you're one of these derelict morons who can't wait for the shooting to start. With regards to your "if you don't take a CCW course you're a dumbass (or something to that effect)" assertions, you remind me of some child who only recently discovered self-gratification and now all of a sudden is a sage expert on all things having to do with sex. lol

So you're mad because you took a quote and applied it in another thread unrelating and it was removed by a moderator upon my request.

And no I never said if you don't take the CCW course you are dumbass.
What I said is if you don't take the CCW you'll never understand the position I take about using lethal force. The law specifically states you can use lethal force when presented with life threatening advancements.....the transient criminal trespasser was-
1. disobeying the law.
2. disobeying a direct order
3. presented a life threatening weapon in a situation to remove him from the property.

Not a very "wise" guy if you ask me.

Yeah you dare say huh?
Just how do you know there are more Bolsheviks in the US than in Russia?
Are you privy to something we are not?

Show me one, just example, of where I hold the ten planks of communism over and higher than the ten commandments?
All coming from the guy who was once known as "sukio fan" and now uses the war machines of communist Bolsheviks as his picture......"you will know them by the fruits they bear" comes to mind about you comrade rambler.

A derelict moron who cant wait for the shooting to start huh?
Just where in your demented brain did you get that from?

If you like calling me an expert from taking the ccw course then....OK, but I already told I don't agree with your decision. All I'm doing is repeating what is taught in the CCW course...and it sure isn't anything you've been posting lately.
Funny how you accuse me of being an expert and using related, but misguiding, material you found on the web to hopefully justify attacking me to discredit me. Your game is all to well recognizable.
You're not honest either.......and using dishonesty to discredit someone always blows up in your face...and it has for you.

[midnight rambler]

I have to wonder if some people are as big of a douchebag in person as they are on the interwebs.