The Constitution…Be Careful What You Wish For

[Ares]

I’ve discussed before the trouble with relying on the Constitution when making arguments for this or that policy, particularly among libertarians. There is a great irony in seeing those that deride “statism” stand side-by-side with a document that created one of the largest, most overreaching states in the history of the world.

Before the Constitution, the “united” states were loosely affiliated under the Articles of Confederation, but there was no overriding federal authority until the Constitutional Convention formed the federal government in 1787. I see no need to delve into history further; if you so choose there are many avenues by which one can educate themselves on U.S. history.

During the recent standoff at the Bundy Ranch which I discussed earlier this week, many of his supporters were giving reverence to the Constitution in their defense of Bundy. Cliven Bundy himself has referenced the Constitution in his defense, stating to Fox News:

This is a lot bigger deal than just my cows…It’s a statement for freedom and liberty and the Constitution.

So what’s the problem? I’m all for freedom and liberty; heck, I’m all for encouraging the Federal Government to, at the very least, limit itself to the powers clearly defined in the Constitution. Powers which are far too broad, but I digress….

The problem is that the Constitution has ushered in many of the very issues which Cliven Bundy and his supporters are battling with right now. The Constitution not only created the federal government; it also allowed that very same federal government to own and acquire land for public use. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution allows the federal government to own land for a variety of uses (though of course, “protecting tortoises” was not one of them.) Additionally, the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution essentially codifies the federal government’s right to use eminent domain to seize formerly private property for its own use. Most of the fifth amendment sounds just peachy until you get to the end (emphasis mine):

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

There’s always a catch! The “just compensation” clause essentially means that the government does have the power to take private property, as long as it justifies some sort of “public use” and compensates the owner with whatever it deems to be “just compensation.” This is the concept of eminent domain, and it essentially means that private property doesn’t really exist in this country. You may own your property and have a title for it, but when the government can claim the power to take it from you by force, is it really even your property?

There are reasonable arguments Cliven Bundy could make to the use of the “public” land where his cattle have been grazing. He could make the case that the land should be unowned and therefore he has the right to use them in lieu of an actual owner. He could even homestead areas of the land himself and make an argument that by doing so he has become the rightful owner. These would be arguments based on principle, first and foremost.

The Constitution is not a principle. It is simply a document by which the entity known as the U.S. government spells out its powers. It’s true that this entity has in no way limited its power to those in the Constitution, and it’s a worthy enough cause to point this out when appropriate.

Libertarians in particular need to stay focused on principles. If one has no principles and simply keeps pointing to this document that the government itself could care less for, they will be one “hey, what about this clause” away from losing every single argument.

http://lionsofliberty.com/2014/04/15/the-constitutionbe-careful-what-you-wish-for/

[Carl]

Why do you post such unmitigated bullshit? What the fuk are you gonna do, WISH government out of existence?

There is one fuking truth in that entire fuking idiotic rant that is true; No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

That's it.

Now, show everybody exactly where in the constitution that it says the central government can appropriate vast swaths of land within any state.

Show everybody exactly where in the constitution that it says the central government can have vast policing powers.

Show everybody exactly where in the constitution that it supports any of that idiotic rant accuses it of permitting.

It's called Abuse Of Power and the unlawful appropriation of power where no grant exists.

Whose fault is it that we've been reduced to such circumstance? OURS, for sitting around on a fat asses and allowing it to happen.

[Ares]

Why do you post such unmitigated bullshit? What the fuk are you gonna do, WISH government out of existence?

There is one fuking truth in that entire fuking idiotic rant that is true; No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

That's it.

Now, show everybody exactly where in the constitution that it says the central government can appropriate vast swaths of land within any state.

Show everybody exactly where in the constitution that it says the central government can have vast policing powers.

Show everybody exactly where in the constitution that it supports any of that idiotic rant accuses it of permitting.

It's called Abuse Of Power and the unlawful appropriation of power where no grant exists.

Whose fault is it that we've been reduced to such circumstance? OURS, for sitting around on a fat asses and allowing it to happen.

You can piss and moan until you're blue in the face Carl. It doesn't change the fact that the checks and balances FAILED, it doesn't change the fact that the government is a CORPORATION that does not recognize it's governing document. It does not change the fact that we are salves to a system our forefathers put in place.

You go ahead and keep worshiping that parchment that has fucking failed you.

Just like every fucking government before it. Taking power that does not belong to them... There is no difference between a monarchy, democracy, republic, or dictatorship. All systems of government designed to rule YOU.

[Carl]

You can piss and moan until you're blue in the face Carl. It doesn't change the fact that the checks and balances FAILED, it doesn't change the fact that the government is a CORPORATION that does not recognize it's governing document. It does not change the fact that we are salves to a system our forefathers put in place.

You go ahead and keep worshiping that parchment that has fucking failed you.

Just like every fucking government before it. Taking power that does not belong to them... There is no difference between a monarchy, democracy, republic, or dictatorship. All systems of government designed to rule YOU. So what do you propose we do? Give us a viable option. You want to talk shit, let's hear it.


* The document didn't fail, it's still sitting there waiting for someone with enough gumption to uphold and enforce it.

[Ares]

So what do you propose we do? Give us a viable option. You want to talk shit, let's hear it.


* The document didn't fail, it's still sitting there waiting for someone with enough gumption to uphold and enforce it.

The document failed, plain and simple. It's there as an historical relic and gives the people a false sense of government.

If you must go down the government route, then scrap the Constitution altogether. The founders said as much in the Declaration of Independence.

Rewrite a new Constitution, and create a Confederacy. All states are equal, have militia for mutual as well as self defense. Create a Confederate Congress that has no authority whatsoever over the states and CLEARLY define their power which is nothing more than a medium to speak to powers outside the confederacy (i.e. world at large) and to discuss disputes between the states. It's in their best interest to work together instead of against each other. Confederate Congress has members elected in each state, by the people, the states are responsible for drawing up their congressional districts NOT THE CONGRESS ITSELF. There is no president, there is no judiciary. CLEARLY spell out that the people and their respective states are sovereign and are subjects to no one. Laws enacted by localities within each state. States only responsibility is to ensure no ones rights have been infringed upon, place severe restrictions and punitive damages for state members who violate a sovereigns rights. I.E. cop beating someone, for "jaywalking". Have a citizens grand jury form for that particular incident outside of the cops jurisdiction to decide the case. Each side can present evidence to the citizen grand jury, and the jury has final say. An appellate citizen grand jury can be formed for appeal processes at the state level. Each grand jury member can only be picked 3 times per year and can never serve more than 5 times in a 5 year period. After that the individual(s) are no longer eligible to serve on a grand jury to weed out possible corruption.

Taxing authority is deregulated to the states. Each state is responsible for how to collect and regulate taxation. No Congressional oversight or power to intervene. If a state over taxes its populace it will show when people leave the state and it implodes under its own weight with no possibility of a "bailout". I like to call it natures way of keeping corruption and taxation in check.

Public Sector unions are strictly forbidden. Private sector unions can form if they so desire. Free market keeps their power in check in the private sector, but not at the state level.

That covers the gist of what I would have in mind for a government. Obviously its no where near complete, as there are still interstate / international commerce, cross state disputes such as people crossing state lines to avoid capture etc. But those could also be worked out at the Congress and setting up agreements and extradition pacts by each state. If you've got ideas feel free to add to it, or tear it to shreds. We all learn by looking for something that could work without having an overbearing and abusive master who thinks we are designed for nothing more than to serve them.

[Carl]

Oh, that's just fuking special, please do tell us; how do we get from here to there?

How many states' legislators are on board with this plan?

[Horn]

You go ahead and keep worshiping that parchment that has fucking failed you.

Oh ye of wayward Silver (and now also Constitutional) faith.

http://artnectar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/smokey_the_bear.jpg

[Ares]

Oh, that's just fuking special, please do tell us; how do we get from here to there?

How many states' legislators are on board with this plan?

You asked for an example of an option. Do you think the founding fathers had it all worked out on what they were going to do before the Revolutionary War?

If you've got nothing to contribute other than your "let's just stick with the Constitution"(which you refuse to acknowledge as FAILED). Then what do you purpose, how many state legislators are on board? How do we get from here to there?

[Ares]

Oh ye of wayward Silver (and now also Constitutional) faith.

http://artnectar.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/smokey_the_bear.jpg

Horn quick tell the cops his constitutional rights are being violated... :rolleyes:

http://www.a-w-i-p.com/media/blogs/articles/Directory2/police_brutality_america_81.jpg

[Horn]

Did they say throw away the Constitution, or the government attached to it?

Your ilk is a failure to the Constitution, Oh Ares prince of the underworld interpretations.

[Carl]

You asked for an example of an option. Do you think the founding fathers had it all worked out on what they were going to do before the Revolutionary War?

If you've got nothing to contribute other than your "let's just stick with the Constitution"(which you refuse to acknowledge as FAILED). Then what do you purpose, how many state legislators are on board? How do we get from here to there?
So that's your plan?


Wait until after the civil war, after 10's of millions are dead and the land is a scorched cinder, they'll get their chance to build the perfect society where everybody holds hands?

[Ares]

Did they say throw away the Constitution, or the government attached to it?

Your ilk is a failure to the Constitution, Oh Ares prince of the underworld interpretations.

My ilk?? Why because I see that the Constitution failed I'm the bad guy? lol

[Ares]

So that's your plan?


Wait until after the civil war, after 10's of millions are dead and the land is a scorched cinder, they'll get their chance to build the perfect society where everybody holds hands?

I asked you first for your example, or option. Given that the Constitution has failed, how do you amend it or correct it? How do you avoid the scorched earth scenario? How do you change a form of government without bloodshed?

[Horn]

My ilk?? Why because I see that the Constitution failed I'm the bad guy? lol

No, because you fail to recognize real intrinsic value in anything that does not reward your underworld desire for immediate self profiteering.

[Carl]

I asked you first for your example, or option. Given that the Constitution has failed, how do you amend it or correct it? How do you avoid the scorched earth scenario? How do you change a form of government without bloodshed? Why do you continue to insist upon repeating a bald faced lie as a qualifier? The Constitution is still the Supreme Law of the Land, whether you chose to believe it or not.

And why do you insist upon making me repeat myself, as if this is the very first time we've had this conversation?

Convince the states' legislators into reclaiming their Article 5 protected right to equal suffrage in their Senate and then, letting human nature take its course.

[Ares]

No, because you fail to recognize real intrinsic value in anything that does reward your underworld desire for immediate self profiteering.

LOL Horn, you're hilarious. The bitcoin section is in the cryptocurrency forum.

[Ares]

Why do you continue to insist upon repeating a bald faced lie as a qualifier? The Constitution is still the Supreme Law of the Land, whether you chose to believe it or not.

And why do you insist upon making me repeat myself, as if this is the very first time we've had this conversation?

Convince the states' legislators into reclaiming their Article 5 protected right to equal suffrage in their Senate and then, letting human nature take its course.

Human nature has already taken its course has it not? The states even though they didn't have the power to do so relinquished their suffrage with the NON-PASSAGE I might add of the 17th Amendment. If they refuse to recognize their rights now, how do you expect them to claim and DEFEND their Article 5 protected rights when they all have their hand out for "federal" money to keep their own bloated political apparatus afloat?

[Horn]

LOL Horn, you're hilarious. The bitcoin section is in the cryptocurrency forum.

Tell me I don't know the hole from where all your punditic parabol propagate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joi2F60Veqo

[Ares]

Tell me I don't know the hole from where all your punditic parabol propagate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joi2F60Veqo

I'll tell this to you with a straight face.

Horn, You don't know jack shit!

[Carl]

Human nature has already taken its course has it not? The states even though they didn't have the power to do so relinquished their suffrage with the NON-PASSAGE I might add of the 17th Amendment. If they refuse to recognize their rights now, how do you expect them to claim and DEFEND their Article 5 protected rights when they all have their hand out for "federal" money to keep their own bloated political apparatus afloat? Funny, you can spend hours dwelling upon your utopian shangri la, yet can't see how the act of states' reclaiming their Article 5 protected right to equal suffrage would be of benefit.

I'm sure that there will be those in the states' who will seize upon the idea of controlling the flow of funds via the senate as a way to stick their hand deeper into the central government's cookie jar, any reason they choose to claim their Constitutional right, is OK by me. The central powers, can't use the withdrawal of funds as a threat, that takes legislation, and the states will control the senate which controls the flow. I'm really not concerned with those things. What I'm looking for is the paradigm shift in politics. Senators who do not campaign for office effectively cut the flow of campaign contributions, to both houses. Party politics will shift from left vs. right to the people vs. the states. The DNC and RNC reduced to writing campaign slogans once every four years. Corporations cut out of the loop. People reorienting their focus back upon their House representatives and local/state politics. The left/right paradigm collapsing as people seek common ground. On and on....<----Human Nature. I figure it will take a few years for the complete shift but the advantages will be felt immediately.

If the states' refuse, we've lost nothing and I'll join you in the bleachers to watch the show unfold.....

[Ares]

Funny, you can spend hours dwelling upon your utopian shangri la, yet can't see how the act of states' reclaiming their Article 5 protected right to equal suffrage would be of benefit.

It isn't a utopian idea. I can also see how the states growing a pair and reclaiming their suffrage would be beneficial for all. However I'm also a realist and know that funds would get cut immediately. If we have our current elected dictator he would declare it a crisis of government, and cut off all funding to the states who are reclaiming their Article 5 rights. He could label it however he wanted, but he would take whatever power is left by the states reclaiming their rights. There was a war fought over this once already when the states decided they knew what was best for them. I could see that turning into another civil war unfortunately. It would divide the senate, where you have states siding with the "All Powerful" federal government on one side and the states just wanting equal representation on the other. I just don't see any way to retake power from those who have stolen it without watering the tree of liberty. It's taken them over a century to steal, subvert, and outright lie to get to where they are. They aren't going to just give that up.......


If the states' refuse, we've lost nothing and I'll join you in the bleachers to watch the show unfold.....

We need more than spectators, we need viable and agreeable alternatives. I'm not opposed to the Constitution if it can be fixed to greatly limit the governments influence and power. It's obvious it cannot be trusted with coining money, creating laws, or even self regulating. We need to fix it or replace it so that this type of thing doesn't happen again.

[Horn]

I'm not opposed to the Constitution if it can be fixed

You're sitting in my chair.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA_trUrPQbI

[Carl]

It isn't a utopian idea. I can also see how the states growing a pair and reclaiming their suffrage would be beneficial for all. However I'm also a realist and know that funds would get cut immediately. If we have our current elected dictator he would declare it a crisis of government, and cut off all funding to the states who are reclaiming their Article 5 rights. He could label it however he wanted, but he would take whatever power is left by the states reclaiming their rights. There was a war fought over this once already when the states decided they knew what was best for them. I could see that turning into another civil war unfortunately. It would divide the senate, where you have states siding with the "All Powerful" federal government on one side and the states just wanting equal representation on the other. I just don't see any way to retake power from those who have stolen it without watering the tree of liberty. It's taken them over a century to steal, subvert, and outright lie to get to where they are. They aren't going to just give that up.......

We need more than spectators, we need viable and agreeable alternatives. I'm not opposed to the Constitution if it can be fixed to greatly limit the governments influence and power. It's obvious it cannot be trusted with coining money, creating laws, or even self regulating. We need to fix it or replace it so that this type of thing doesn't happen again.

If it were to play out as you suggest, we'll know beyond any shadow of a doubt exactly where they and we stand, won't we? Saves us the guess work.

But I don't see it playing out as you suggest, too many variables, the Whitehouse can't control them all and declaring outright war on a state, this ain't 1861 and they don't control the information. And the corruption, which is the flow of campaign contributions, will be cut in half. Corporations will be left with buying half a congress with the people being right up the ass of their representatives as their last line of defense. Corporations won't stand a chance.

Nope, if it don't work then it will be up to the ones that survive to figure out....

[Ares]

If it were to play out as you suggest, we'll know beyond any shadow of a doubt exactly where they and we stand, won't we? Saves us the guess work.

But I don't see it playing out as you suggest, too many variables, the Whitehouse can't control them all and declaring outright war on a state, this ain't 1861 and they don't control the information. And the corruption, which is the flow of campaign contributions, will be cut in half. Corporations will be left with buying half a congress with the people being right up the ass of their representatives as their last line of defense. Corporations won't stand a chance.

Nope, if it don't work then it will be up to the ones that survive to figure out....

I think a lot of us are just sitting back and watching to see how this all plays out. I think if anything the Bundy Ranch incident has demonstrated that people are drawing a line in the sand. Hopefully the states follow suit.

[Carl]

I think a lot of us are just sitting back and watching to see how this all plays out. I think if anything the Bundy Ranch incident has demonstrated that people are drawing a line in the sand. Hopefully the states follow suit.

I agree. It's too big for the people to handle, we need the states' to stand up and represent on our behalf. And as war with Russia being pushed by the psychopathic control freaks, the states are the only chance we have of stopping them.

[Ares]

I agree. It's too big for the people to handle, we need the states' to stand up and represent on our behalf. And as war with Russia being pushed by the psychopathic control freaks, the states are the only chance we have of stopping them.

Agreed. Listening to Russian's and American's speak on GLP ( I know not an embodiment of the populations on either side) neither want war with the other. I'm not sure Putin even wants war with the United States. The U.S. certainly keeps itching for a war with the Russians for some damn reason. Unless they are doing it for some stupid Agenda 21 garbage to wipe out a sizable portion of humanity to make it more "manageable" for them...

If the states don't stand up to reign this psychopath monster in, then war we most certainly will have.......

[mick silver]

oil and natual gas and and like you said ....... wipe out a sizable portion of humanity to make it more "manageable" for them... the great one's talk about this out in the open now ... wink wink the one's that think that they are gods anyways

[Ares]

oil and natual gas and and like you said ....... wipe out a sizable portion of humanity to make it more "manageable" for them... the great one's talk about this out in the open now ... wink wink the one's that think that they are gods anyways

That's why I threw that in there. As I was typing up my response that thought came to mind so decided to add it. From a viewpoint on "their side" of the fence it makes sense. Too many sheep for them to corral, the sheep are starting to get brave and are turning on the wolves. We are the last nation on the planet who has weapons, at least enough to make a difference. But small arms alone don't win a war or start a rebellion. You need ideas, answers to questions, and the will to push forward.

A good study of Sun Tzu's Art Of War doesn't hurt either. :)

[Horn]

A point to stand for revisions to the Constitution is domestic enforcement. While the U.S. military is not permitted on domestic soil the states policing forces are militarizing themselves.

This may also work towards a successful "politicking" strategy by joining or "taking in" your dumber opponents in arms control. You see it everywhere how only certain arms an appurtenances are only allowed for law enforcement.

They (your opponents) will be fitting subjects left to be reconstituted.

Another point is agenda 21 and private tax proceeds when dealing directly with your state reps.

If we can't get rid of them.

[Hypertiger]

without the mass media...you would not even be aware of him.

and any constitutional crisis in the USA will collapse the economy of the USA and the world...and the rest of the world...who generally still believes the USA is the super hero that saves the day in the end...will see the USA as the super villain...and the USA will take the fall for it all...

Bretton woods in 1944...made the US dollar the global trade medium of exchange...the US credit instrument...and all the rest of the currencies...which were credit instermunts...were fixed to the US dollar...making every currency a derivative of the US dollar.

the belief by the population of the USA that they are an independent nation state...or by any member of the population outside the USA that they are members of independent nation states....is a figment of their imaginations.

The Bretton woods agreement is a globalist system...and it is ultimately incompatible with national systems.

in 2008...The USA which was the supply of inflation to the global system...reached maximum potential...ran out of resources to supply the demand of the global system...and the USA along with the rest of the world has been collapsing since then.

It's all over...

There is no escape...there is no way to vote your way out of what you all and everyone else in the world has voted their way into.

The people in the have class...have taken the people in the have not class...for granted...and the slaves that supply the demand of the master...have collapsed.

Civilization as you all know it...is doomed...and you have to head out of the cities...which are all debt inflated bubbles...that will pop.

[Buddha]

I din't even read the thread, just the first few posts. Do you really think that the Consitution has any bearing, now adays? "It's a fucking God-damn peace of paper" These people do what ever they want, missles and guns make the law, not a man... Trying to realy on a paper form fucking almost 300 years ago... when we have drones flying over our heads and the gov knows when you take a fucking shit... was is runny or compact? shit, sometimes it's better to not rely on the past because it's over. A Brave New World was the title of the book...

[Hypertiger]

You killed yourselves...one way or the other...you will either find an nice secluded place to die...or you will try to resist your fate an be euthanized.

it's every Man, Woman and child for themselves...

You all have become so weak mentally and physically...You can not even survive in the natural environment of the planet you were born on without technological life support.

Me?

If you are worried about my fate...you an idiot.

I was born a loser and will die a loser...I never try to win...If it looks like I'm winning...then you are suffering from some kind of mental problem.

[iOWNme]

I love these threads....LOL


The 'Constitution' PRETENDED to give something called 'Congress' the moral Right to:

KIDNAP individuals - Sometimes called 'Conscription'
MURDER individuals - Sometimes called 'War'
PLUNDER individuals - Sometimes called 'Taxation'.
STEAL from individuals - Sometimes called 'Eminent domain'


And there are members here who IMAGINE that the US Constitution actually protected individual Rights. LOL

The belief in 'Government' is a religious faith based indocturnation, made up of a set of dogmatic teachings and irrational doctrines which fly in the face of both evidence and logic. Meaning, none of the Founders had the Right to do any of the things laid out in the US Con. Yet people are raised in a Nationalistic brain mushing propaganda system which makes them see all other 'Governments' as the bad ones, while viewing their own Oppressors as righteous and noble.

These Anarchist threads REALLY bother some members here. :)

[Buddha]

You killed yourselves...one way or the other...you will either find an nice secluded place to die...or you will try to resist your fate an be euthanized.

it's every Man, Woman and child for themselves...

You all have become so weak mentally and physically...You can not even survive in the natural environment of the planet you were born on without technological life support.

Me?

If you are worried about my fate...you an idiot.

I was born a loser and will die a loser...I never try to win...If it looks like I'm winning...then you are suffering from some kind of mental problem.

We have all lost, it's just wether or not you are willing accept it or not and move on.

[singular_me]

that is why nothing can save the constiution , it has gone beyond a point of no return, I am afraid. Anything reaching that threshold must be abandoned.


and any constitutional crisis in the USA will collapse the economy of the USA and the world...and the rest of the world...who generally still believes the USA is the super hero that saves the day in the end...will see the USA as the super villain...and the USA will take the fall for it all...p

[Horn]

that is why nothing can save the constiution , it has gone beyond a point of no return, I am afraid. Anything reaching that threshold must be abandoned.

Bologna, the U.S. is collapsing one way or the other, and it ain't all that anymore around the world.

HT's just a blueblood Canadian.

[hoarder]

HT's just an Israeli Canadian.Fixed it for ya!