Prosecutor: Minn. homeowner lay in wait for teens

[mick silver]

Prosecutor: Minn. homeowner lay in wait for teens

http://l.yimg.com/os/152/2012/04/21/image001-png_162613.png (http://www.ap.org/) By AMY FORLITI6 hours ago



LITTLE FALLS, Minn. (AP) — A Minnesota man on trial for killing two teenagers after they broke into his house had been lying in wait in his basement with a book, some snacks and two guns, a prosecutor said Monday in his opening statement.



Byron Smith, 65, of Little Falls, is charged with first-degree premeditated murder in the slayings of 17-year-old Nick Brady and 18-year-old Haile Kifer on Thanksgiving Day in 2012. The killings rocked the small central Minnesota town of about 8,000 and stirred debate about how far a person can go in defending their home.
Smith has claimed self-defense, saying he feared the teens were armed and he was on edge after earlier, repeated break-ins at his home. Under Minnesota law, a person may use deadly force to prevent a felony from taking place in one's home or dwelling, but authorities have said Smith crossed a line when he continued to shoot the teens after they were no longer a threat.
Assistant Washington County Attorney Brent Wartner outlined for jurors Monday the evidence that prosecutors will present, including Smith's statements and audio from a recorder that Smith had set up in a bookcase the day of the break-in.
"He's down in the basement, in a chair, tucked between two bookcases at the bottom of the stairs. He said he was down there reading a book ... with his Mini-14, a .22-caliber revolver, some energy bars and a bottle of water," Wartner said.
Wartner said Smith heard the door of his house rattle at about 12:30 p.m., then someone walking across the deck, then a window breaking.
"And he waited," Wartner said.
As Brady descended the basement steps, Smith shot him in the chest, then in the back while Brady fell, Wartner said. Smith fired a final shot into Brady's head, the bullet passing through Brady's hand, Wartner said.
Smith put Brady's body on a tarp, dragged it into his workshop, reloaded his Mini-14 rifle and sat down again, the prosecutor said. A few minutes later, Kifer walked down the stairs and Smith shot her, Wartner said. He tried another shot, but his rifle jammed, Wartner said, and Smith told police he believed Kifer laughed at him.
"He was angry," Wartner said. "So he pulled out his revolver and he shot her twice in the head, once in the left eye and once behind the left ear."
Smith dragged Kifer's body into the workshop and laid it on top of Brady's. Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he pulled out his revolver for what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head," the assistant prosecutor said.
Smith's attorney, Steve Meshbesher, was to present his opening statement later Monday.
Smith is a retired security engineer for the U.S. Department of State. Kifer and Brady were cousins. The two were well-known in the community, and both were involved in sports.
After their deaths, authorities said a car linked to Brady and Kifer contained prescription drugs that had been stolen from another house, apparently the day before they were killed. Court documents from another case show Brady had burglarized Smith's property at least twice in the months before he was killed.
___
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[Uncle Salty]

Dude is going away for a long time.

I get he was pissed, but shooting to kill like that looks a little premeditated.

[Ponce]

Yeap..........

V

[palani]

that looks a little premeditated.

Ever watch Fargo?

Had he a woodchipper he would fit right in.

[Bigjon]

Cops do this every day and its legal.

Are they better than ordinary citizens?

[Dogman]

Cops do this every day and its legal.

Are they better than ordinary citizens?

They act it, but no!

[midnight rambler]

Cops do this every day and its legal.

Are they better than ordinary citizens?

They are extensions of the corporate state - the hands and strong arms of the corporate state, so yeah, they are 'better'. They're 'special'.

[Ares]

Dude is going away for a long time.

I get he was pissed, but shooting to kill like that looks a little premeditated.

Yep, don't get me wrong I would of shot them as well. One shot would of been enough though. He wouldn't be going to prison now if he went that route. Instead he went vindictive and was intent on killing them......

[PatColo]

Sounds like TPTB seeking to 'discourage' actually exercising 2nd Amendment rights, even against young serial-burglarizing tweekers in the act of breaking into your home.

"Shoot to maim" leaves yourself open to the tweekers testifying against you in the future.

[midnight rambler]

Sounds like TPTB seeking to 'discourage' actually exercising 2nd Amendment rights, even against young serial-burglarizing tweekers in the act of breaking into your home.

"Shoot to maim" leaves yourself open to the tweekers testifying against you in the future.

Nothing has changed really, it's still 'shoot to stop' - one just needs to take better aim so that the 'stop' is persistent, permanently.

[Jerrylynnb]

I can't believe this! Anybody who wants to criticize this homeowner only needs to be confronted with a life-threatening encounter - someone holding a gun pointed at you in a private-like setting. You loose your personals (liquid and solid). You loose your normal ability to think things through. Your whole life flashes by and you would, if you could, smash the intruders to smithereens, and then grind them up to mush (oh, if you only could). Well, this homeowner COULD, and DID. More power to him!

That is not vengeance, or weakness of character, but a normal animal reaction to being cornered in a threatening situation (such as having someone breaking into your house - your "castle", as it were).

And if you ever return to your house
after being away for a bit, to find out that someone has broken in, I promise you the reaction that will fill you mind will be as vile and deadly as you can imagine. You will feel violated, and feel like all your belongings are smothered in feces - you will want to find out who did this and beat the living hell out of them!
You will want to move out and leave every fecal-clad belonging behind!
It will be ruinous to your natural right to the pursuit of happiness, which, after all, a long and deadly war was fought over - no??????

I had two teenage creeps jump me once (a long time ago) and pointed a pistol right at me, ordering me around like mangy dog. I had all the expected accidents (soiling myself, seeing my whole life flash before me, fearing the immense pain from the upcoming bullet wound, etc.,), and, *IF* I had had a gun and could have gotten the jump on them, not only would I have emptied my gun into their sorry ass bodies, but, after that, I would have picked up a heavy bar and smashed their dead bodies until they were not recognizable as human flesh! You just don't know what happens to you when cornered and threatened with immediate great bodily harm and death. Don't think for a minute you know about it until you have had it done to you by surprise and with no hope of having any control over the outcome.

These teenagers made their own bed, knowing full well they were likely to get shot and killed by choosing to break into other people's houses - I got no sympathy for them and all the understanding in the world for the homeowner. To hell with house-breakers and violent intruders!

If we were to openly admire this home-savor, instead of ridiculing him and subjecting him to a mean-spirited prosecution, there would be far fewer house-breakins, no?

That prosecutor needs to be prosecuted himself for malicious prosecution.

As a nation, we have lost our way.

[Norweger]

He could have fired warning shots though, but still, they spilled their own blood.

[Celtic Rogue]

They were the aggressors... he was the defender.

They chose to burglarize the house... he chose to defend it!

I say if you break into my house with ill intent.... then that is what you will find!

All of these prosecutions of self deference shooters is obviously an attack on the ability to use/have the 2nd amendment. Why is it when the cops kill someone by mistake... its oh sorry it was a mistake... here is a paid vacation for you... but when a homeowner uses any force to defend his property it is gun violence and to jail with you. TOTAL BS!

I agree somewhat that the second shot to the head was not right. Once you have them immobilized its time to call the authorities to deal with the rest.

However I was not there and do not know ALL of the particulars.

It is also ridiculous to charge him with lying in wait for the intruders... Its his home... that's what you do when you at at home. So what is he supposed to do??? Leave the house at night so anyone that wants to break in can so he would not be charged with laying in wait?

[Cebu_4_2]

Propaganda.

[madfranks]

I agree with Jerrylynnb, it's very presumptuous to tell someone not to panic when you're experiencing a home invasion. They are trying to paint a picture of a calculated killer, calmly murdering and moving on without emotion, when in fact I suspect there was lots of panic and instinctual response. I've never suffered a home invasion, but I was once robbed at knife-point by a couple of thugs when I worked as a pizza delivery guy. Two thugs approached me, knives drawn and demanded I turn over the pizzas, so I did. I didn't think about it, I didn't consider my options, I instinctively turned the hot bags over, turned around and high tailed it out of there. It wasn't until after I had calmed down that I actually thought through what had happened and realized it was all instinct.

[Twisted Titan]

He definately should have dropped em

He is going to have a hell of a time explaining the back and head shots to the jury.

If you dump 30 slugs in a attackers chest ....you can say he kept coming at you ....lots of cases where bullets dont faze a attacker.

Back shot insinuates he was fleeing or no imminet threat.

Head shots insinuate the intent to kill not defend.


He is in a nasty bind because of liberal brainwashing

[Uncle Salty]

I can't believe this! Anybody who wants to criticize this homeowner only needs to be confronted with a life-threatening encounter - someone holding a gun pointed at you in a private-like setting.

Can you read?


Smith told investigators he thought he heard Kifer gasping, so he pulled out his revolver for what he told police was a "good clean finishing shot to the head'

So, after he drags the second body and lays it on top of the first one, he thought he heard Kifer gasping and then puts another to the head. So he is still in fear for his life at that point? Really? That is murder, sorry. The threat had been stopped. It was an unarmed chick, limp and shot and unable to function. And he shoots again. He deserves prison.

[midnight rambler]

Can you read?



So, after he drags the second body and lays it on top of the first one, he thought he heard Kifer gasping and then puts another to the head. So he is still in fear for his life at that point? Really? That is murder, sorry. The threat had been stopped. It was an unarmed chick, limp and shot and unable to function. And he shoots again. He deserves prison.

It's a very fine line between murder and bona fide self-defense, as George Zimmerman found out. Sound judgment can mean the difference between a 'no bill' by a grand jury and hard time in prison. His completely unjustified coup de grace shot will earn him a prison sentence.

[PatColo]

what about... if you've fired 1-2 rounds into an invader, and they're on the ground but you "hear them gasp"; you just WAIT AWHILE, b4 calling coppers. Then your story just pushes the "event timeline" up 1-2-3-whatever hours you waited for them to die? Coz "they" can determine approx time of death of a fresh corpse. Body doesn't start "going cold" until the moment of death, right? It's a risky play for sure, and with 2 intruders it's too complicated, & something I wouldn't even think about. It's very complicated anyways by circumstantial items, like are there neighbors? At what time did they hear gun shot(s)? etc.

Anyways, this guy violated the rule, if you shoot someone, you say exactly one thing to the coppers: "I feared for my life." Then u shut up completely and let lawyers battle it out. This guy couldn't resist boasting to the coppers about his "good clean finishing shot to the head"...
:rolleyes:

[Spectrism]

Bodies? What bodies?

Why would anyone even involve LEOs in such an affair? If I had been burglarized a few times, you can bet I would tediously lie in wait and end the efforts of my tormenter. And nobody else would be so tormented either. But I would not go looking for a medal.

But there are other factors I would consider.

[7th trump]

Bodies? What bodies?

Why would anyone even involve LEOs in such an affair? If I had been burglarized a few times, you can bet I would tediously lie in wait and end the efforts of my tormenter. And nobody else would be so tormented either. But I would not go looking for a medal.

But there are other factors I would consider.

Yeah and you just committed murder in the eyes of the Father....a serious punishment of being destroyed (uncreated)
All for worldly material possessions....hardly a Christian!

The Father addresses stealing differently such as paying back what was stolen 7 fold.....not laying in wait to take a life (murder).

[Spectrism]

Yeah and you just committed murder in the eyes of the Father....a serious punishment of being destroyed (uncreated)
All for worldly material possessions....hardly a Christian!


The Father addresses stealing differently such as paying back what was stolen 7 fold.....not laying in wait to take a life (murder).

The slobbering dog is back. Did someone ring a bell?


When someone wants to strike another in his delusional confusion, he makes up a straw argument when a good one cannot be found.

In this case, we have a pretend christian who twists scripture for his goal.

If some people are breaking into my house repeatedly, I would lay in wait.... and in fact, I have done this. I did not have the intent to kill but to confront vandals. If I had caught them, anything could have happened. But what is a thief? It looks like 7th Dump needs a little lesson in reality.

A thief comes to take away from me. He takes my earnings, my tools, my livelihood, my safety, my energy, my life. He cares not what I need. He cares not how many hours of labor I expended for the things that he steals. He cares not about the bills and debts I owe. He viciously rips from me what I have set aside for my needs - and my family's. He steals from my children and takes pieces of their lives.

And what does the bible really say about this? Don't listen to Dump because he has no clue and cares not what the bible says.


Exo 22:1 When a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it, or sells it, he shall pay five oxen for the ox, and four sheep for the sheep.
Exo 22:2 If the thief is found breaking in, and is stricken and dies, no blood shall be shed for him.
Exo 22:3 If the sun has risen on him, blood is due for him; repaying he shall repay. If he has nothing, then he should be sold for his theft.


Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the housemaster had known in what watch the thief comes, he would have watched and not have allowed his house to be dug through.


Joh 10:10 The thief does not come except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life and may have it abundantly.

[7th trump]

The slobbering dog is back. Did someone ring a bell?

Beware people....some here claim to be Christian.

I bet you had a ham for easter huh Spectrism?

[Spectrism]

Beware people....some here claim to be Christian.

I bet you had a ham for easter huh Spectrism?

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down, the one accusing them before our God day and night.


Rom 14:2 One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables.

Act 10:11
And he saw the heaven being opened and a certain vessel like a great sheet coming down on him, being bound by four corners, and let down onto the earth;
Act 10:12 in which were all the four-footed animals of the earth, and the wild beasts, and the creeping things, and the birds of the heaven.
Act 10:13 And a voice came to him, Rise up, Peter, slay and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not at all, Lord, because I never did eat anything common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And again a voice came to him a second time, What things God made clean, you do not make common.

[Celtic Rogue]

Dont you just love all of the judeo christian archeo-superstition dogma? Why is it that these words which have long since lost any relevance or meaning to most of the world are often spouted to try an "prove" a point?

And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil So there were dragons? and an old snake is the devil?
And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven Where is Heaven exactly? They must of had really keen hearing back then as well. How did he know it was from heaven?

Sorry... but I guess I am doomed to hell because I choose the real world instead of one based on blind faith. There is no boogie man called satan that is a snake in a tree or a horned beast that pokes you with his pitch fork or pointy horns and tail in hell.

If god is so powerful and can do anything as you and the scriptures say... then why doesnt he do us mortals a favor and make evil disappear from our midst's? Why does your god make the world suffer with the evil known as satan? Just curious... as

It makes no sense to me. If I was a supreme being and I created the universe and all in it. I would make sure that my creations had every advantage to a good life as they define it for themselves.

[Spectrism]

Dont you just love all of the judeo christian archeo-superstition dogma? Why is it that these words which have long since lost any relevance or meaning to most of the world are often spouted to try an "prove" a point?

As your liberties dwindle, remember that all liberty is from God and you, even you, denied the source of your liberties and deserve the slavery that you have chosen.



And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent being called devil So there were dragons? and an old snake is the devil?


This you will get to see for yourself.



And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven Where is Heaven exactly? They must of had really keen hearing back then as well. How did he know it was from heaven?


You need to read the context to understand the text.



Sorry... but I guess I am doomed to hell because I choose the real world instead of one based on blind faith. There is no boogie man called satan that is a snake in a tree or a horned beast that pokes you with his pitch fork or pointy horns and tail in hell.


And there are no global controllers, evil bankers, corrupt politicians or psychopaths running this world.



If god is so powerful and can do anything as you and the scriptures say... then why doesnt he do us mortals a favor and make evil disappear from our midst's? Why does your god make the world suffer with the evil known as satan? Just curious... as


Mankind was given dominion over this world and free choice... the ability to deny God. That is what happened. The evil is the result of mankind allowing it and choosing it to enter this world. Because of this, God set out time limits. We cannot live in this corrupted flesh forever. We are terminal and this world is finite. BUT, the world was made a fit habitation for fallen man.

Those who will be saved are grown up next to the weeds and in the harvest the two are separated. The end is near. We have reached fulfillment of most of the prophecies. You will get to see the big shake-out of this world.



It makes no sense to me. If I was a supreme being and I created the universe and all in it. I would make sure that my creations had every advantage to a good life as they define it for themselves.

And if your creatures told you to get lost and leave them alone, what would you do?

[Santa]

Someone may find the words in the bible to be uplifting, but those same words may also slam someone into the dirt.

[Jerrylynnb]

How did this thread turn into a corny biblical (so-called) argument?

I thought it was about whether or not we can excuse a homeowner who goes overboard in exacting revenge and intentionally kills his burglars in the same setting as the actual break in, within a reasonable time frame (an hour, or two, etc.).

I am firmly convinced that any one of us is likely to be out of our normal mind for at least a day, more probably a month, after being the victim of a break-in, mugging, or any kind of blatant action by parties demonstrating no regard for your person or things.

I have experienced it myself, discussed it with the police (who had lots of experiences with victims, and cautioned me to give myself plenty of time to regain my normal happy-go-lucky attitude), and I would, as a juror, excuse this homeowner outright, and quickly, and I would argue with other jurors to think of themselves and their loved ones being the hapless victims of hooligans who break in and how do you feel about it then?

This whole criminal scene would have been avoided had these deceased ruffians simply minded their manners and not broken into other people's houses.

To me, it is very simple and it wouldn't matter to me whatever the hell this homeowner did to them, especially in the same setting as their break in.

I don't care to examine the exact second-by-second supposed sequence of events to pinpoint the exact ping when the homeowner's jeopardy had ended, so as to then require him to be a fully functioning sane and civil man, as we all strive to be - no sir! I give him plenty of time to be a wild man bent on revenge due to the state of mind his assailants DROVE HIM TO.

NOT GUILTY (of anything)!

[Twisted Titan]

I don't care to examine the exact second-by-second supposed sequence of events to pinpoint the exact ping when the homeowner's jeopardy had ended, so as to then require him to be a fully functioning sane and civil man, as we all strive to be - no sir! I give him plenty of time to be a wild man bent on revenge due to the state of mind his assailants DROVE HIM TO.


You know what........i cant really argue against that.
No one knows what the fear of death will do to you....untill its being done.


I would have to dismiss him as well

[lapis]

Reading this kind of stuff makes me afraid for my elderly parents being alone in their home. My dad has guns, but honestly due to his health issues I don't think he'd be able to defend himself against teenage thugs like this. It's so unfair; you're damned if you do (defend yourself) and damned if you don't. But I certainly don't blame Smith for what he did.

[Tumbleweed]

When Claude Dallas shot two game wardens in Idaho with his revolver the Jury would have found him not guilty if he hadn't gone in to his tent, got a .22 and shot both of them behind the ear trapper style to make sure they were dead.

He did some time for it but he's out now.

[Libertytree]

Here's the things that've always been in my mind. (a)Someone is intent on causing me possible death or at least an ass kicking I didn't ask for or initiate,(b) someone is breaking into my home and I have no idea what their ultimate mindset is.

If I can I'm gonna kill them, period. I DO NOT want them pissed off and hell bent on retribution/revenge. I may have to deal with their relatives or friends but they'll know they will be met with lethal force. What's the old sayin'? I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. That term may no longer apply, sadly.

[zap]

This was the 12 th time he was broke into ! They deserved what they got.

[7th trump]

This was the 12 th time he was broke into ! They deserved what they got.

How do you know it was the same people all 12 times to deserve being murdered.

God's law says laying in wait to take a life is murder which is punishable by being uncreated.
Taking a thief's life over worldly possessions isn't how God has instructed us in dealing with thieves.
Thieves are to pay back 7 fold what they stole.

Remember God destroyed the first earth age bringing in this flesh age (the second age) for a testament of each and everyone of us.
You get one chance in the flesh to see who you are going to follow.
1. Now these thieves are most likely going to be admitted into the kingdom as they hadn't any opportunity to come clean with God....this is not what God wants to do.
2. Or God has to destroy them over petty thieving because they didn't have an opportunity come clean....this also is not what God wants to do.
They were cut short of any opportunity for them to repent and come to God on their own free will.

[Dogman]

One shot and then had to reload his mini-14 ? They feed using mags, tho one can pullback the bolt and feed a single cartage. Not enough detail on that.

What the guy did was major overkill and did overstep the line.

His finishing shot will finish him in court. The two ass hats did deserve what they got, breaking in and the first shots did the trick, and put them down and after that they were no threat to him,

they were both down!

Overkill and the shooter will pay for it, in this society methinks.

[Libertytree]

How do you know it was the same people all 12 times to deserve being murdered.

God's law says laying in wait to take a life is murder which is punishable by being uncreated.
Taking a thief's life over worldly possessions isn't how God has instructed us in dealing with thieves.
Thieves are to pay back 7 fold what they stole.

Remember God destroyed the first earth age bringing in this flesh age (the second age) for a testament of each and everyone of us.
You get one chance in the flesh to see who you are going to follow.
1. Now these thieves are most likely going to be admitted into the kingdom as they hadn't any opportunity to come clean with God....this is not what God wants to do.
2. Or God has to destroy them over petty thieving because they didn't have an opportunity come clean....this also is not what God wants to do.
They were cut short of any opportunity for them to repent and come to God on their own free will.

So, you would give them the opportunity to kill your family? Once? Twice? Thrice?

[zap]

He did over kill, and it I'm sure it was different people breaking in, I guess they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Kinda wonder what state of mind he was in after 12 times?

[Buddha]

He definately should have dropped em

He is going to have a hell of a time explaining the back and head shots to the jury.

If you dump 30 slugs in a attackers chest ....you can say he kept coming at you ....lots of cases where bullets dont faze a attacker.

Back shot insinuates he was fleeing or no imminet threat.

Head shots insinuate the intent to kill not defend.

He is in a nasty bind because of liberal brainwashing

This is the "big" one. In my view, some one breaks into a private home, expecting no resistance, then sees some guy in a folding chiar, with some ramen noodles, Finger Prints of the God's, and a 12 guage, there is no excape. You took your chances and broke into to the wrong home, turning around and running away doesn't call it all off "Muligan!" nah. Now I don't know what firearms he had but if I had a pistol, or pretty much anything but a shot gun, I would MOST definantly be shooting for the head, and no matter what firearm, I would shoot them in the back, who knows that they aren't going to come back "heavy" next time.

LOL i read the OP actually now, guy gets the badass of the year award from me. the mini 14 jammed and the WOMAN laughed after being shot so he pulled out the 22 and shot her in the eye LMAO.

[Spectrism]

Please excuse moronic attempts to misconstrue biblical concepts. To "lay in wait" refers to setting up an ambush in a place that the intended victims would be traveling lawfully. It is not possible to "lay in wait" for law-breakers in your own home. We all defend our homes. We lock the doors and windows. We defend aggressively if we hear a break-in during the night.

If someone breaks into my home with evil intent, I won't need the police and society will be a better place the next morning.

[mick silver]

they got what they ask for no more no less the old man did what most men cant do

[7th trump]

So, you would give them the opportunity to kill your family? Once? Twice? Thrice?

Oh...I get it!
Its exactly what the police said it was........premeditated murder.

A shot to the leg or to the arm is all that was needed.....not multiple head shots.
This guy can shoot to kill unarmed teens in fear they were armed (where have we heard this before?)......and yet when the police do this they are criminal bastards that need to be put down like sick rabid animals?
Do you see your hippocracy?

You are another dishonest person.

[7th trump]

Please excuse moronic attempts to misconstrue biblical concepts. To "lay in wait" refers to setting up an ambush in a place that the intended victims would be traveling lawfully. It is not possible to "lay in wait" for law-breakers in your own home. We all defend our homes. We lock the doors and windows. We defend aggressively if we hear a break-in during the night.

If someone breaks into my home with evil intent, I won't need the police and society will be a better place the next morning.

It's another way for you unintelligent beings to understand what "premeditated" means.

Sure go ahead and just shoot someone.....they and God will be waiting for you....criminal trial will be in session when you arrive!
You'll get Christ and satan as your attorneys....satan is the accuser..and Christ will be on your side if the truth allows.

And that's just it...you have no idea if anyone coming into your home has evil intent or just needing immediate help....but hey...just blast away like a fool!

[Libertytree]

Oh...I get it!
Its exactly what the police said it was........premeditated murder.

A shot to the leg or to the arm is all that was needed.....not multiple head shots.
This guy can shoot to kill unarmed teens in fear they were armed (where have we heard this before?)......and yet when the police do this they are criminal bastards that need to be put down like sick rabid animals?
Do you see your hippocracy?

You are another dishonest person.

Did he know? or would you know? that they are unarmed or what age they were? Did he or would you know their intent?

[midnight rambler]

Shoot EFFECTIVELY* to stop the threat, anything beyond that** is going to cause you grief.

*i.e. double tap head shot, center of mass double tap, or anything in between (and don't be using ball ammo) - get a solid center of mass shot with a 12 ga. buck or slug and the the varmint won't be in any position to put you in danger

**it's just plain stupid to do a 'finishing shot' when the shootee is clearly incapacitated and having difficulty breathing

[Libertytree]

7th Trump,

I am very honest, I consider myself a reborn Christian but I am not the biblical scholar that you are.

Have you ever been confronted with evil people that tried to take your life and those that you loved? I don't know the answer to that. I can say that I have, regretfully. We have no idea what we're capable of, strength wise, mentally wise, anger, fear, pain on top of pain even when beaten to a bloody pulp. That's when it gets interesting, just when you think you're a goner you find things inside that you never dreamed possible, barely able to walk but you can run like hell and jump as if you were sprung from a trampoline. Anything to protect those that you love so much from the evil that you've already seen those bastards commit.

[7th trump]

Did he know? or would you know? that they are unarmed or what age they were? Did he or would you know their intent?

That's the question isn't it.....intent.
So just blast away in the dark at unsuspecting thieves.
Think about....what intent was there if the thieves didn't know you were there hiding in the dark.
He obviously didn't tell them he was there armed. If he did would you think one minute these teenagers would have kept advancing?

I'd take the shot if they kept advancing, knowing I was there pointing a weapon at them, and them having a weapon brandished....but that wasn't the case was it?
Nope it wasn't...it is premeditated murder.

How about this....why didn't the guy simply just hide a camera to catch these thieves instead of pumping them full of unnecessary lead.
Or just simply switch on the lights and tell them to put their hands on their heads and sit while he calls the police...all while having a gun drawn on them?
Gee.... how many times have you seen that on the boob tube?
Nope he didn't do that either...............simple premeditated murder!

He wanted to take their lives over worldly material......................he has a trial waiting for him when he arrives in front of God.

[Libertytree]

What if he'd come to the point of living in fear for his family and himself and he snapped?

We ALL have a trial waiting for us in front of God.

[7th trump]

Mathew 7:14

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[madfranks]

they got what they ask for no more no less the old man did what most men cant do

The simplest answer is usually the right one.

[Twisted Titan]

That's the question isn't it...




How about this....why didn't the guy simply just hide a camera to catch these thieves instead of pumping them full of unnecessary lead.
Or just simply switch on the lights and tell them to put their hands on their heads and sit while he calls the police...all while having a gun drawn on them?

d.



Yep that video would have been real sucessful in putting those tweekers behind bars.

The justice system would have bear brought to bear to protect this man and his property.

After the umpteeth time.

[Publico]

The man followed the first rule, Shooting; but failed to follow the next two rules, Shoveling, and Shutting up.

[midnight rambler]

This is all clearly an example of a failure to exercise intelligence and/or sound judgment. He obviously had plenty of time to consider his course of action(s) and yet he still managed to fuck his own self up completely. It appears to me that he's a thorough dumbass* and deserves all that he has coming.

*he was a retired FEDERAL EMPLOYEE - 'nuff said

[Uncle Salty]

So, you would give them the opportunity to kill your family? Once? Twice? Thrice?

The kids were unarmed. They were there to rob. They no longer were a threat to grandpa.

Guess what? When the threat is stopped, you stop or go to jail for a very long time. Pretty simple. Know the laws.

[Uncle Salty]

Did he know? or would you know? that they are unarmed or what age they were? Did he or would you know their intent?

When you start piling bodies, it becomes apparent.

[7th trump]

Yep that video would have been real sucessful in putting those tweekers behind bars.

The justice system would have bear brought to bear to protect this man and his property.

After the umpteeth time.

See an intelligent person would have had them on video breaking and entering and when they found me in the dark pointing a gun at them forcing them to sit until the police arrives would have been enough of a deterent for them to never return......isnt that what he wanted....the break-in's to stop?

Now hes up for murder and completely ruined his life and will be surrounded by the same people he wanted in jail.

[midnight rambler]

When you start piling bodies, it becomes apparent.

He was compounding his problem by tampering with evidence. If one alters the scene that fact WILL be picked on by anyone who is knowledgeable in modern forensics, and that will never reflect well on one's actions.

[Hitch]

This is all clearly an example of a failure to exercise intelligence and/or sound judgment. He obviously had plenty of time to consider his course of action(s) and yet he still managed to fuck his own self up completely. It appears to me that he's a thorough dumbass* and deserves all that he has coming.

*he was a retired FEDERAL EMPLOYEE - 'nuff said

He set a trap for them, then executed them. He's going away for a long time, whether folks think it's just or unjust.

Personally, if I was in that situation. I would have been awake reading a book or something, then would have been suddenly threatened for my life. Fearing for my life I would have used lethal force to protect my life, and in my scared state I fired until the threat was stopped. The threat was stopped when I heard the click click click because of an empty mag..

There's a saying, a guy who fires every round in his gun, is clearly scared for his life. A guy who fires only one round, just isn't sure about it.

[Horn]

Under Minnesota law, a person may use deadly force to prevent a felony from taking place in one's home or dwelling,

This is key, I'm not sure there are many other states in our fine union that add that liberating notion,

Of course how could a dead man defend his case otherwise, would be the question. I think the addition is an abomination.

Forced entry and pursuit under threat should be enough to slaughter anyone.

[midnight rambler]

There's a saying, a guy who fires every round in his gun, is clearly scared for his life. A guy who fires only one round, just isn't sure about it.

That depends entirely on one's life experiences. A combat vet or someone who has expended the time and effort to be properly trained would DELIBERATELY fire a couple of rounds center of mass or head shot on each varmint then re-assess the situation (so as not to burn up ammo unnecessarily, for one thing). OTOH I can see where someone who lacks experience and/or training would fire rapidly and randomly until out of ammo (donut munchers come to mind). At the end of a storm it's desirable to have some ammo left in your mag.

"Learn to take your time in a hurry." --Wyatt Earp

[Hitch]

That depends entirely on one's life experiences. A combat vet or someone who has expended the time and effort to be properly trained would DELIBERATELY fire a couple of rounds center of mass or head shot on each varmint then re-assess the situation (so as not to burn up ammo unnecessarily, for one thing). OTOH I can see where someone who lacks experience and/or training would fire rapidly and randomly until out of ammo (donut munchers come to mind). At the end of a storm it's desirable to have some ammo left in your mag.

"Learn to take your time in a hurry." --Wyatt Earp

I agree with you, but I'd rather be assumed to be scared than experienced in this matter. People get tunnel vision anyway, and even the most experienced will swear they only fired a couple of shots, yet there's many casings on the ground around them. The worst thing you can do, is fire only one round. You can't go wrong with too many, imo.

[midnight rambler]

You can't go wrong with too many, imo.

You can if you miss, you're out of ammo and the varmint is still in a position to hurt you. lol One can burn up five rounds in a shotgun pretty damn fast (5 rounds being a standard shotgun capacity).

You do realize there's this thing called 'a dead man's five seconds' where someone with only a few seconds of life left can still kill you, right? (recall the incident last year in Michigan where the two CCW licensees managed to kill each other - at least one of them was dying when he still managed to kill the one who killed him)

[Libertytree]

I agree that the dude fucked up, there's no arguing that point. Temporary insanity is what I'd assert. Plus, given how the law reads, if I were a juror he would walk.

[midnight rambler]

Temporary insanity is what I'd assert.

Much better to PLAN on going with a 'for sure' rather than gambling on an ad hoc 'maybe' - imo.


Plus, given how the law reads, if I were a juror he would walk.

Of course that varies from state to state.

[Hitch]

You do realize there's this thing called 'a dead man's five seconds' where someone with only a few seconds of life left can still kill you, right? (recall the incident last year in Michigan where the two CCW licensees managed to kill each other - at least one of them was dying when he still managed to kill the one who killed him)

It's more than that. Did you hear about a bank robbery shooting, with PD, in florida (I think). The robbery suspect was hit in the heart, heart destroyed...and he kept fighting for a couple minutes after that. That was years ago.

The myth of a couple of shots taking someone down, is false. People keep fighting, even if they are dead, clinically. You reassess the threat, as you reload another mag. Imo.

[midnight rambler]

It's more than that. Did you hear about a bank robbery shooting, with PD, in florida (I think). The robbery suspect was hit in the heart, heart destroyed...and he kept fighting for a couple minutes after that. That was years ago.

The myth of a couple of shots taking someone down, is false. People keep fighting, even if they are dead, clinically. You reassess the threat, as you reload another mag. Imo.

I fully recognize that a 'dead' man can continue fighting and still remain dangerous for several minutes after being mortally wounded, much more than you realize.

However 'shooting until your magazine is empty' is just plain stupid. Less is more. Also, not everyone uses a pistol, some folks rely on a revolver (or a shotgun with a 5 round mag or worse a single or double) and in those cases one is limited to 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 rounds (depending upon the make/model of the revolver) and of course consequently reloading a revolver is not nearly as quick as reloading a pistol with a detachable mag.

At the end of a storm I only had one round left, and lemme tell you I was getting very anxious about that.

[Hitch]

At the end of a storm I only had one round left, and lemme tell you I was getting very anxious about that.

They train you not to count your rounds. They train you that it's a surprise when your out, and for a split second you look at your gun like it's broken. Then it kicks in to slam in another mag.

Even to this day, at the range, it's a surprise to me when I hear the click (revolver) or the chink and the slide is locked back (auto). No matter how hard I try, I can't count how many rounds I fire. It's nuts.