Man vs Animals, property rights?

[Hitch]

Do you believe animals have inherent rights, because they have been in the habitat longer?

There's a lot of activity going on where I live, man vs the animals. Primarily sea lions, and sadly sea otters. I have a neighbor who's trigger happy with his red rider BB gun shooting everything, every sea lion and sea otter he can see. He's an old guy, but non stop pop pop pop. He has a good reason, the otters are "damaging" his boat he says. They bang clams on boats, to feed. It sounds like a hammer hitting the hull. I personally think he enjoys the battle.

The sea lions cause a lot of damage here. They congregate and sink sections of the dock. The harbor master shoots them with paint ball guns, but they keep coming back. Literally the peace and quiet here is interrupted constantly with the sounds of paint ball guns and BB guns going off. It's some bizarre war zone. You can't use real guns because obviously it will harm them, heck there's only 3000 sea otters in the whole state of california, you kill one you are done.

[Glass]

Animals don't see ownership. A duck will eat something it finds wherever it finds it and doesn't care if you think you own it. I think that is a big lesson for humans. Why don't ducks pay tax? Because they can't be made to pay. Are ducks smarter than people then?

Also animals (and some people) have age old habits or instincts for going to particular areas for feeding and breeding. The fact that humans turned up and built something there then thats nothing the animals can do anything about or care about. Same thing for highways and so on. Often a highway is built on an ancient track or pathway that was used by animals or people.

So maybe the sea lions need some nicer digs or as nice, close by and maybe the otters need something that works better than a boat hull for cracking clams. Maybe the just need encouragement to go elsewhere. What ever it is that attracts them could be less attractive. I don't know what seals are doing when they are laying about. Are the hibernating and building up fat stocks? Are they getting some vitamin D? If they couldn't lie still or there was too much shade for sun baking they might have to move somewhere else. Also could something be done to make climbing on the pontoons more difficult of unpleasant. Maybe some spikes underwater on the pontoon or something.

[Cebu_4_2]

Either leave them alone or drop fucking bombs to kill them all. After all man rules the sea, they have no business there right Solid?

[Hitch]

Animals don't see ownership. A duck will eat something it finds wherever it finds it and doesn't care if you think you own it.

I was trying to explain this to my neighbor, the trigger happy BB gun guy. I have an old kayak that a sea otter "claimed". By claimed means he bangs his clams on the kayak. He often jumps up in it to relax. Watching him, he thinks the kayak is just there. A part of nature, something to enjoy, but...animals do not claim ownership, but they do claim territory. Sea lions, the males during breeding season, which is now, they claim a section of the dock. That section is theirs, and the female bounce around and mate with the males they like.

Basically, sea lions do own property, like we do. To them it's territory. They stake out a claim, protect it, and if a female comes a long, will attack you to defend it.

It's an interesting dynamic. They understand, they are smarter than we give them credit for.

[Hitch]

Either leave them alone or drop fucking bombs to kill them all. After all man rules the sea, they have no business there right Solid?

Man does not, and will never, rule the sea. It is the last frontier.

[zap]

I think its kinda like shooting squirrels , only they shoot to kill them , Maybe sea lions and seals are just a pain in the ass and he should shoot them, but with the bb gun he is just scarring them away! no real problem

I think I would shoot them with a BB gun,and I would feel ok about that.


As long as I didn't shoot their eye out !

[Celtic Rogue]

All animals us included all have equal rights to existence. Unless they are harming your property or livelihood. Then if possible they should be relocated to an area that they will not bother humans... if that is not feasible then the offending creature would need to be destroyed. I am not talking about destroying the complete species but only the offenders. Its not about how long you have been on the planet... its about life is sacred and creates a web of interdependency that once disrupted can crash the system down upon our necks! We all play a part in nature. In short in the animal world might makes right. I just hope we would use our brains to work out a better solution than to kill everything... and it seems that we are on a good start at that.

[aeondaze]

This whole concept is classic example which shows the essence of the way most humans on the planet live, not all but most.

As said animals do understand ownership to a degree. teritorially speaking. An alpha lion has no moral problem taking territory from another or killing the cubs of his defeated opponent.

Yet we always here about animals rights which translates to giving animals the same rights as humans. Its never framed about giving the same rights that animals have to humans. And the reason that often given is that we are't animals, but technicaly they have more rights than we do. The right to roam, to feed freely and defeat an opponent or threat with violence. We aren't. Clearly the moral code for wild animals isWAY better in regards to self determination and true freedom of association.

The top elite however, reserve every one of those rights for themselves, hence the reason we have monolothic, heavily financed large state run standing armies.

To the elite we are just rentiers, inseatd of just killing us, they put us to work for them via their abstract and predatory monopolistic money practices . To them we've the same rights as a stable horse, we earn our keep via heavy graft and giving of our 'labour'

The idea that the concepts of animal rights and what constitues human rights are completely different, I find utterly offensive.

To me, humans ARE animals. To differentiate in way shape or form PROVES that the whole psychology of what are as humans is a sinister and rigrously enforced directive from the top down via insidious gatekeeping and intelectual thuggery wrapped in a sophisticated layer of marketed paradigm management.

This is the ultimate result of all those fancy bullshit philosophers from the past prognosticating that because of our higher abstract cognitive ability that humans aren't animals and therefore two seperate moral codes apply.

So this is what we get when we fall for the bullshit that humans and animals are somehow 'different', if anything all it proves is that we've allowed ourselves to be treated worse than an animal and more like a slave while believing wholeheartedly that we're free.

[singular_me]

Completely agreeing here.

Though I'd also add that what differentiates animals from us is that they live in the *now* , humans plan long time ahead and this is why we have more conflicts of interest than animals. Time is an illusion, created by linear thinking, and it is precisely that very linear thinking that makes history repeat itself. So, maybe there is something we can learn from the animal realm in the end. But there is a catch 22 here, when surrendering to the *now*, serendipity makes events happen a lot more positively and tell us that there is no fear to have. This constant race for the future and competition is what brought us to the abyss and the reason why we are destroying Nature.

“We cannot command Nature except by obeying her.” ~ Francis Bacon
Its masonic insight but we can clearly see how "they" subvert Universal Knowledge again to use it against us



All animals us included all have equal rights to existence. Unless they are harming your property or livelihood. Then if possible they should be relocated to an area that they will not bother humans... if that is not feasible then the offending creature would need to be destroyed. I am not talking about destroying the complete species but only the offenders. Its not about how long you have been on the planet... its about life is sacred and creates a web of interdependency that once disrupted can crash the system down upon our necks! We all play a part in nature. In short in the animal world might makes right. I just hope we would use our brains to work out a better solution than to kill everything... and it seems that we are on a good start at that.

[iOWNme]

Do you believe animals have inherent rights, because they have been in the habitat longer?

Rights are not derived from the amount of time that has been lived in a certain place. This is a silly question.

This is a comon misconception among believers in 'Government'. The idea that since 'Government' existed before you were born that must mean they have more 'Rights'.

[aeondaze]

Though I'd also add that what differentiates animals from us is that they live in the *now* , humans plans long time ahead and this is why we have more conflicts of interest than animals.

This is another chestnut, lol.

What the fuck does living in the 'now' mean anyhow? We all live in the NOW, or else where do you think we all live, what pure hyperbole.

Enjoying the present is completely different to this vacuous concept of 'living the now' and has nothing to do with time whatsoever

Perceived time is not time. Time is a strict vector quantity that moves in only one direction.

If you think humans are the only ones that plan ahead, you're insane.

Dingos have been known to think ahead days and even weeks in advance. You'll believe anything!

That ability by the way is one of the greatest gifts we humans posses but all you can do is somehow find a way to ridicule it, how predictable.

[singular_me]

get a grip aeon... and especially if you only have a plethora of insults to offer.

you are subverting what I am saying... yes humans are the only creatures planning DECADES AHEAD... find me animals that do this or back off.

yes humans would be better off if they could let go some of their planning because we are stock market assets to start with

leave me alone and go after others who share the similar thinking. It is called stalking.

Thanks

BTW: the NWO plans are 100-200 years ahead. If not more.


This is another chestnut, lol.

What the fuck does living in the 'now' mean anyhow? We all live in the NOW, or else where do you think we all live, what pure hyperbole.

Enjoying the present is completely different to this vacuous concept of 'living the now' and has nothing to do with time whatsoever

Perceived time is not time. Time is a strict vector quantity that moves in only one direction.

If you think humans are the only ones that plan ahead, you're insane.

Dingos have been known to think ahead days and even weeks in advance. You'll believe anything!

That ability by the way is one of the greatest gifts we humans posses but all you can do is somehow find a way to ridicule it, how predictable.

[aeondaze]

yes humans would be better of they they could let go some of their planning

Ain't going to happen, looks like you'll just have to plan better, if you are capable of it that is, lol


leave me alone and go after others who share the similar thinking. It is called stalking.

No. Its called a public forum, where people discuss issues and agree or disagree, I just happen to find almost all of what you say frivolous disinfo attempting to masquerade as scintiliating logic and hence, disagree.

You're just going to have to deal with it...

Say, why don't you take teaspoon full of concrete and harden the fuck up...:cool:

[singular_me]

well, show everybody you have a agenda then if you only stalk me and not those who share same ideas :)

that's where you show your incomprehension of reality... eventually we'll have to learn that the less planning the better.. look what is coming ahead. Total breakdown of society and total police state because of our fears of the future that morphed us into stock market asses and sheeple...

eventually humans will learn that THE LESS = MORE ... but at what price ???


Ain't going to happen, looks like you'll just have to plan better, if you are capable of it that is, lol

[aeondaze]

look what is coming ahead. Total breakdown of society and total police state because of our fears of the future that morphed us into stock market asses and sheeple...

You don't know jack shit about what the future holds, so stop pretending you do, all you're doing is guessing.


eventually humans will learn that THE LESS = MORE ... but at what price ???

I wish you'd practice what you preach, your bullshit is mind numbingly repetetive...:D

[Hitch]

Rights are not derived from the amount of time that has been lived in a certain place. This is a silly question.

This is a comon misconception among believers in 'Government'. The idea that since 'Government' existed before you were born that must mean they have more 'Rights'.

It is not a silly question, you just gave a silly answer. Of course, rights can be derived from the amount of time lived in a certain place. If I set up a tent on your property, and say I live there now, is that trespassing still? According to you, it's not, because the second I say it's my home and I live there, that property is not yours anymore, it's mine.

I guess in that sense, that's what animals do. The sea lions do that. So, the question is, if a person, or animal, does not believe in property rights, but you do, does that give you the right to enforce your 'ownership' on to them.

[EE_]

I think we're all a bunch of sea otters banging clams on the elite's boats...

[Santa]

The solution is obvious. Integration. California should legalize intermarriage between species. That way if a neighbor shoots a man's sea otter spouse with a bb gun, he will have legal rights to protect her. And then eventually ALL creatures great and small will have equal rights under the LAW.:D

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/Otter.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/jackconrad/media/junk/Otter.jpg.html)

[EE_]

The solution is obvious. Integration. California should legalize intermarriage between species. That way if a neighbor shoots a man's sea otter spouse with a bb gun, he will have legal rights to protect her. And then eventually ALL creatures great and small will have equal rights under the LAW.:D

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/Otter.jpg (http://s915.photobucket.com/user/jackconrad/media/junk/Otter.jpg.html)

PLEASE don't give California any more ideas like that. It's bad enough that sodomy has become accepted as a normal, healthy and beautiful expression of man on man love.
Please God, spare the Sea Otters rectums!

[Neuro]

get a grip aeon... and especially if you only have a plethora of insults to offer.

you are subverting what I am saying... yes humans are the only creatures planning DECADES AHEAD... find me animals that do this or back off.

yes humans would be better off if they could let go some of their planning because we are stock market assets to start with

leave me alone and go after others who share the similar thinking. It is called stalking.

Thanks

BTW: the NWO plans are 100-200 years ahead. If not more.
Planning ahead is what makes us intelligent advanced beings that separates us from the beast. The elites are in their position of power exactly because of exceptionally long term planning and conspiracy. Your solution? Plan less?

I would say that the best course of action is first to have a plan on how not to obey their dictates on how we should live our lives, and pay their lifestyles with our work. Plan less and you are nothing but cattle in their eyes, or goy as they prefer.

[iOWNme]

It is not a silly question, you just gave a silly answer. Of course, rights can be derived from the amount of time lived in a certain place. If I set up a tent on your property, and say I live there now, is that trespassing still? According to you, it's not, because the second I say it's my home and I live there, that property is not yours anymore, it's mine.

You are increasingly harder and harder to even comprehend. Im not even sure what your talking about. The contradictions in your post are bordering on hallucinations.

It scares the fucking HELL out of me that you used to be a 'Cop'. You dont have the slightest understanding of what 'Rights' are, yet you IMAGINE that you were the good guy while you violently dominated your fellow man.

PUKE.

[Hitch]

[/B]You are increasingly harder and harder to even comprehend. Im not even sure what your talking about. The contradictions in your post are bordering on hallucinations.

It scares the fucking HELL out of me that you used to be a 'Cop'. You dont have the slightest understanding of what 'Rights' are, yet you IMAGINE that you were the good guy while you violently dominated your fellow man.

PUKE.

You know, there no point in debating anything with you anymore. You get way to emotional. Look at this post. You accuse me of "violently dominating" fellow man, when you, yourself are the most aggressive poster on this forum.

You continuously result to personal attacks, because you can't get a grip on your emotion.

Take your hypocrisy, and piss off with it. Either that or calm down, and come back with an honest point.

[singular_me]

My only intention here, to stay on topic was that we should learn from the animal kingdom. Most likeLY, we create problems (specified in the OP) in our interaction with nature because we are too attached to our habits resulting from planning much too far ahead. Less sedentarity (move out and relocate) could be a good option instead of being upset at the sea lions.

Now on a large scale, this planet is suffering from the ILLS of centralization (planning) ... obviously, you dont know what you are talking about. Can't you see this or not?

so the less planning (centralization) = MORE (freedom)

actually, those who grasp this are volunatryists in essence.

I DO practice what I preach: I am a world traveler living day by day. Since I left the big city, my horizon is not more than 3-6 months ahead. Living off the grid, house sitting, living off random jobs and guess what? Opportunities come to me spontaneously. I do all kinds of jobs, from taking care of a paralyzed woman, landscaping, working at a gaz station, doing facials at the wellness center of the area and writing internet columns. Look how diversified I am! The more freedom the more flexible your life is....

Too much PLANNING forces people into becoming automatons as they are much too afraid to lose their jobs , their plans cannot fall apart, they are stuck. A prison without bars, planned by the NWO

I have learned to live with little fear about the future, even with the NWO lurking in the background.

It is not about to know what the future holds but understanding that with too much planning brings about insecurities...

CONCLUSION: Observe the animal kingdom and ponder a bit.



You don't know jack shit about what the future holds, so stop pretending you do, all you're doing is guessing.



I wish you'd practice what you preach, your bullshit is mind numbingly repetetive...:D

[Hitch]

CONCLUSION: Observe the animal kingdom and ponder a bit.

Great post, Singular.

I always enjoy paddling out in the surf and sharing the waves with the sea lions. I see them out there all the time, and they are having just as much fun as me. They interact with you out there, you both have the same goal, catching waves.

It's amazing to see nature not focused on survival, or the future, but just enjoying life.

6443

[singular_me]

I get the issue but in my view animal right activism is an aberration, in the sense that man is blatantly destroying nature, then must fight to preverse it. It should be the habitat that defines animals' rights not the stock market. There are plenty of vast areas that could welcome new cities from scratch, involvng much less struggle to settle.

From what I gather, it also has a lot to do with salmon runs, marine mamals are fond of it. The population of California sea lions has rebounded from a low of 1,000 in the 1930s to 300,000 today, they were hunted almost to exinction prior the 30s precisely because of their great number.

They know salmons will come by and just wait for them. Their number has been booming since the massive killing because nature simply provides them with enough fish to sustain their huge population. We cannot fight that.

All this because of a government deception at the core under the guise (an incentive) to help people relocate in this particular area - and obviously created a fake housing boom?

Now another massive killing is being considered to save the fishing industry.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20120203/NEWS01/702029790

All this will end in tears as government-sponsored-Fukushima's side effects will eventually decimate marine mammals and humans alike.

two choices: move out and forget about your property rights. Life is more precious than a house. Or stay and deal with marine mamals and harzardous pollution

[Hitch]

From what I gather, it also has a lot to do with salmon runs, marine mammals are found of it. The population of California sea lions has rebounded from a low of 1,000 in the 1930s to 300,000 today, they were hunted almost to extinction prior the 30s precisely because of their great number.

Same with the sea otters, 1930's they thought they were extinct, but discovered a small colony of about 50 otters near Big Sur. The otters however, never fully recovered. There is only about 3000 along the whole California coast.

This is why I don't like folks shooting them with BB guns.

On the same note however, environmentalists can be way out there in their expectations. I know of one deconstruction project, that will spend millions trying to prevent birds from nesting at the site. I worked a boat, where all we did was birdwatch. Thousands of dollars a day for that boat, all because they spotted a nesting falcon nearby. Thousands of dollars a day, for 1 bird. Yes, one bird.

Your taxes paid me to birdwatch all day. It was a lot of fun, thank you. I had a set of binoculars too. The weather was beautiful. The only thing that went wrong was I almost got hurt. If I actually did get hurt while birdwatching at work, my coworkers would never let me forget it.

[Hitch]

[/B]You are increasingly harder and harder to even comprehend. Im not even sure what your talking about. The contradictions in your post are bordering on hallucinations. .

OK, sui, I will try to explain further because I am curious on your thoughts on "your" property. Now, your words you throw back at me. Say, a bear sets up a den on your property and hibernates for the winter. Do you own that den? or does he? Furthermore, say no bear, but I set up an army tent with a stove to hibernate/camp for the winter, do you agree that I am trespassing on your property?

If you do, you are statist. Because I am human, and not a bear, I am trespassing. Do you see my point now? Property rights are granted by .gov. They give title, water/mineral rights, as long as you pay your taxes.

If you go back to your point, that time does not dictate ownership, you just lead yourself back to my original argument. If you leave for the day, and I set up a tent, I then own your property.

You own property because .GOV allows you too.

[Cebu_4_2]

BB Guns

I used to live in a small developing city that was surrounded with bigger cities etc... what the fuck ever. Anyways there was a neighbor that had a few kids that had pellet/BB guns.

They used to shoot their neighbors dog in the ball sack. This apparently went on all summer and eventually they took the dog to the vet and had it killed.

So I suppose this is as innocent as shooting sea lions or dolphins or a fucking walleye. It's ok as long as no one else "owns" it... you guys are fukt.

[singular_me]

looks like you describe another insanity, Hitch. Before settling, we should study the environment and establsh all the pros and cons, too many downsides are not worth it. It is like choosing to go live in a hurricane/tornado zone. It is all good for Fema. LOL...


Same with the sea otters, 1930's they thought they were extinct, but discovered a small colony of about 50 otters near Big Sur. The otters however, never fully recovered. There is only about 3000 along the whole California coast.

This is why I don't like folks shooting them with BB guns.

On the same note however, environmentalists can be way out there in their expectations. I know of one deconstruction project, that will spend millions trying to prevent birds from nesting at the site. I worked a boat, where all we did was birdwatch. Thousands of dollars a day for that boat, all because they spotted a nesting falcon nearby. Thousands of dollars a day, for 1 bird. Yes, one bird.

Your taxes paid me to birdwatch all day. It was a lot of fun, thank you. I had a set of binoculars too. The weather was beautiful. The only thing that went wrong was I almost got hurt. If I actually did get hurt while birdwatching at work, my coworkers would never let me forget it.

[iOWNme]

You know, there no point in debating anything with you anymore. You get way to emotional. Look at this post. You accuse me of "violently dominating" fellow man, when you, yourself are the most aggressive poster on this forum.

You dont even know what a 'Right' is, so how can you tell me that you have never violated them? The last time i asked you why we need 'Government' you told me because drunk guys may piss their pants. When i asked you about 'Rights' you told me they change depending on the amount of time you have lived somewhere. You are LOST as to what the most basic of human Rights are, and then you advocate for 'Government' to 'protect Rights' that you cant even logically and consistently describe.


You continuously result to personal attacks, because you can't get a grip on your emotion.

I bash you over the head with Philosophy, and you take it as me being 'aggressive'. The NAP is about the initiation of violence. Have i initiated violence against you by pointing out your ludicrously insane contradictory viewpoint of the world? When your blatant idiotic stance is shown to the world, it can feel like you are being attacked, i know because i used to be there.

So let me understand here: You werent 'violating' peoples rights when you were a 'Cop', but yet i am being 'aggressive' when i point out that you were?


Take your hypocrisy, and piss off with it. Either that or calm down, and come back with an honest point.

I know how it feels to have people point out the contradictions in your thoughts. I was there before with people pointing out my contradictions. You can either cling to your dangerous superstitions, or you can become a sane rational human being who respects the Self Ownership of others, who practices and advocates for Voluntaryism and the NAP; Or you can continue to IMAGINE that YOU are not the problem with the world.

[7th trump]

You dont even know what a 'Right' is, so how can you tell me that you have never violated them? The last time i asked you why we need 'Government' you told me because drunk guys may piss their pants. When i asked you about 'Rights' you told me they change depending on the amount of time you have lived somewhere. You are LOST as to what the most basic of human Rights are, and then you advocate for 'Government' to 'protect Rights' that you cant even logically and consistently describe.



I bash you over the head with Philosophy, and you take it as me being 'aggressive'. The NAP is about the initiation of violence. Have i initiated violence against you by pointing out your ludicrously insane contradictory viewpoint of the world? When your blatant idiotic stance is shown to the world, it can feel like you are being attacked, i know because i used to be there.

So let me understand here: You werent 'violating' peoples rights when you were a 'Cop', but yet i am being 'aggressive' when i point out that you were?



I know how it feels to have people point out the contradictions in your thoughts. I was there before with people pointing out my contradictions. You can either cling to your dangerous superstitions, or you can become a sane rational human being who respects the Self Ownership of others, who practices and advocates for Voluntaryism and the NAP; Or you can continue to IMAGINE that YOU are not the problem with the world.

So why do you participate in a government welfare system called Social Security when theres no law stating its mandatory?
You're a hippacrit through and through.

I've asked you questions before and you refuse to answer them so why do you play gaems with these people?
On another note you will never get around government.....reason being is you base your theory of anarchy on morals....the same morals you find in the Bible...which is the same bible that gives the laws of civilization (government).
Christ is the King having a kingdom (government) with laws you will obey to remain in existence.

[Neuro]

I was just thinking of farm animals like cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, most of them would never be able to survive in freedom, in the wild, a few would, those who are faster, stronger more agressive, but farmers tend to kill these "trouble makers" first. I think it is the same with humanity, very few would survive, outside society (or the farm) in the wild. Most at least subconsciously knows this, and thus they prefer to throw their support (or lack of objection) behind even very oppressive societies.

[Santa]

It may not be possible to have a technologically complex society without private property rights, but reverting back to a simple hunter/forager existence would likely require eliminating private property as a concept entirely. High quality protein/nutritional foods are available in the wild, but not in enough quantity to sustain a group of people for very long. They'd need to become nomadic.

[singular_me]

This is what has been going on for millennia under government rules - but on a large scale



I was just thinking of farm animals like cows, sheep, pigs, chickens, most of them would never be able to survive in freedom, in the wild, a few would, those who are faster, stronger more agressive, but farmers tend to kill these "trouble makers" first. I think it is the same with humanity, very few would survive, outside society (or the farm) in the wild. Most at least subconsciously knows this, and thus they prefer to throw their support (or lack of objection) behind even very oppressive societies.

[singular_me]

Nomadism should be allowed, for those who want it but open borders cannot work out if there isnt any sound monetary policies throughout the world. Otherwise we'll get more of the same issues we now have with illegal immigration. What will determine as to whether a system is collectivist or not is its monetary system and who manages the supply.

As for the property rights, we all end 6 feet under anyway... it would be more enjoyable to trade housing when we see it fit. Most of the time, being attached to values bring about misery. I can imagine today how many people are stuck in their homes thinking they made the good investment.


It may not be possible to have a technologically complex society without private property rights, but reverting back to a simple hunter/forager existence would likely require eliminating private property as a concept entirely. High quality protein/nutritional foods are available in the wild, but not in enough quantity to sustain a group of people for very long. They'd need to become nomadic.

[Neuro]

It may not be possible to have a technologically complex society without private property rights, but reverting back to a simple hunter/forager existence would likely require eliminating private property as a concept entirely. High quality protein/nutritional foods are available in the wild, but not in enough quantity to sustain a group of people for very long. They'd need to become nomadic.
Exactly, and such a world could sustain perhaps a hundred million people give or take...

[Tumbleweed]

Those poor clams are being bashed against boat hulls and murdered or maybe even eaten alive by sea otters. Is anyone doing anything to help the clams who are being bashed, murdered and eaten? Those sea otters are cute but they're real killers.