Why complex civilizations tend to disintergrate

[old steel]

When the marginal rate of return on increased effort falls below zero.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter#Diminishing_returns


Go read the latest Fed report released, we are close.

[Horn]

Is this some sort of hyperbait thread, or what?,

[Ponce]

greed is the problem, for many the more that they have the more that they want......... I am living only with my SS, and very happy at that, the trick is to have no debts and to not want what you cannot pay for..........but of course this does not mean that I don't have a back up and a back up for the back up.

C

[palani]

Simplicitas est legibus amica. Simplicity is favorable to the law.

[Hatha Sunahara]

Diminishing returns is the result, not the cause of civilizations declining. I think what causes civilizations to crumble is corruption of the privileged classes. This leads to extremes in income distribution, and that leads to extremes in power differentials between the privileged class and everyone else. The rich people get to a point that they can do whatever they want, unopposed, and they pass corrupt laws designed to deprive everyone but themselves opportunities to grow and prosper. They effectively turn everybody into a class of (law abiding) slaves. The period of decline is the length of time it takes for a critical mass of those slaves to understand their real condition in their society. A whole lot of factors affect that period of realization. One of them is how effective the propaganda of the privileged class is. Another is how strong the 'will to ignorance' is among the population--the denial that things are hopeless. Also how willing the population is to believe what they see instead of believing what they imagine. And of course, how stron is peoples faith in 'the law' and how long it takes for that faith to be eroded when they actiually begin to see how the law really works.

We here at GSUS are going through this civilization disintegration process when we talk about people waking up, and TSHTF. We often speculate when the critical mass will be reached so that the old order is put to rest, and we can be deceived anew by a new order which we believe is better than the old order. And by better, I mean that we will perceive that we are either more free, or less oppressed than what just disintegrated. Those kinds of changes are rare in human history. One of those periods happened in 1776 in America. Revolutions anywhere generally only make things better temporarily, unless the changes put in place by the revolution limit the power of the privileged classes to enslave the rest of the population, but those limits rarely last very long because thos who want to enslave the population are a crafty, persistent, determined bunch, and the rest of the people are usually a bunch of dumb shits who are easily deceived into becoming some kind of slave or another.


Hatha

[old steel]

Is this some sort of hyperbait thread, or what?,

Maybe

[Horn]

Diminishing returns is the result, not the cause of civilizations declining.. I think what causes civilizations to crumble is corruption of the privileged classes.

A symptom?

Diminishing return is seen upon creation of the privileged class,

though its hardly ever noticed as such by them, the cause is class ignorance.

Corruption is just another symptom of ignorance as a sick human system with headache and nausea.

[Hypertiger]

at the core of the absolute capitalist hierarchical food powered make work enterprise is the take more power than is give equation.

all the trillions of animal cells that compose your body are absolute capitalistic...they take more power than they give to sustain existence as well.

It's why civilizations and people die.

There is no such thing as Human being cells...You all basically act like animals but claim you are superior to animals because you are human beings...due to your programing...

Taking more power than is given...absolute or negative capitalism is the same as chopping down trees faster than they regrow to sustain continued existence.

The logical conclusion is always eternal death...All that is ignorant of Truth takes more power than is given...like animals...

Sharing power as equally as possible...responsible or positive capitalism is the same as chopping down trees as fast as or slower than they regrow to sustain continued existence.

Since the trees never run out the result is always eternal life...All that is knowledgeable of Truth shares power as equally as possible...Like Human beings...which you all are not...You all do not have a clue what a human being is.

A human being is an ideal to strive to attain...you were not a human being at the instant of conception...or at birth and what you see when you look into a mirror is not a human being.

You do not even know how to rub two sticks together to create what you all exist within out of thin air...You have zero clue why it returns back into thin air.

Like in the USA the past 33 years...All you net consumers of yield have imploded the net producers of yield down towards the absolute 0 point to power the explosion of all you net consumers of yield up towards the absolute 1 point.

You all did this to yourselves...investing into escaping working for a living.

It takes more than turning tricks for a portion of monkey chow to be a productive member of society.

the vast majority of the employed population of the USA are net consumers of yield or consumptive members of society...That foolishly believe they are productive members of society.

The lower class slaves = net producers = power plants.

The upper class masters and their middle class servants = net consumers = light bulbs.

The net consumers or light bulbs have imploded the net producers or power plants down towards the absolute 0 point of death to sustain the explosion of the net consumers or light bulbs up towards the absolute 1 point of life.

Basically the past 33 years the population of the USA has been burning the furniture in their house to sustain life liberty and happiness...

At the logical conclusion they will be freezing to death in an empty shell in death tyranny and misery.

33 years...right in front of your eyes...you have been committing economic suicide and absolutely oblivious...because you all have no clue.

Of course you never will accept responsibility for worshiping ignorance your entire lives.

It's someone or something else's fault.

In the global scheme...The entire population of the USA is the privileged class...and the rest of the billions of people in the global hierarchy below you...hold all of you up.

It's pretty funny...Americans are basically the biggest welfare cases on the planet...all the economic engineering since 2008 has been to prop up the US consumer.

Because Bretton woods made Americans the supply of the global trade medium of exchange or US dollars...and the rest of the world is forced to prop up the USA to obtain a supply of US Dollars.

but in 2008...the USA reached maximum potential...and the supply of US dollars that was exponentially growing and flowing out into the globalist trade system all you nationalists are the duped slaves of...began to exponentially decay and the stop flowing out into the globalist system to inflate it up...and now it is deflating back down.

The demand by all of you from all of you is greater than the supply from all of you to all of you.

Obama's fault?

You all can have fun changing out the captain of the starship Boobyprize all you wish...The ship is going down...and there is no way to vote your way out of the sad fate you all spent the past 7 decades voting yourselves into...To boldly go where morons have gone before...The Toilet Zone.

Congressmen and senators?...they are like the gatekeepers that have you all locked below decks...changing them is out is like replacing gatekeepers you do not like with ones you do like...that promise to unlock the gate if you elect them...but after the election keep coming up with excuses as to why they can't unlock the gate.

[palani]

Civilization first occurred in 1772. Before this time there evidently was no need to convert a common law crime into a civil crime.


civilization (n.)
1704, "law which makes a criminal process civil," from civilize + -ation. Sense of "civilized condition" first recorded 1772, probably from French civilisation, to be an opposite to barbarity and a distinct word from civility. Sense of a particular human society in a civilized condition, considered as a whole over time, is from 1857.

The reference to common law is synonymous with natural law. Crimes were before nature. Civilization is a law which takes the crime out of nature and into government process.

There has not been a lot of time for many civilizations to fall but when they do you can be sure an accountant or economist has been involved. When the money goes to h♫╙╙ the process fails.

[gunDriller]

Quoth Yoda respectfully, "So certain are you."

Cause or effect ? I don't know.

Inability to tell the truth about diminishing returns is certainly part of collapse though. Just not sure what came first. They seem inextricably intertwined.


Technology being a primary religion of the age, being unable to tell the truth about diminishing returns from TECHNOLOGY is certainly part of it.

The medical care that I have access to now is certainly far less healthful than what I had access to when I was pre-teen - back in the 60's and '70's.

The whole situation reminds me of that scene in Aliens where they are preparing for the long night of being attacked by Aliens, and Paul Reiser says, "let's build a fire".




Diminishing returns is the result, not the cause of civilizations declining. I think what causes civilizations to crumble is corruption of the privileged classes. This leads to extremes in income distribution, and that leads to extremes in power differentials between the privileged class and everyone else.

We here at GSUS are going through this civilization disintegration process when we talk about people waking up, and TSHTF. We often speculate when the critical mass will be reached so that the old order is put to rest, and we can be deceived anew by a new order which we believe is better than the old order. And by better, I mean that we will perceive that we are either more free, or less oppressed than what just disintegrated. Those kinds of changes are rare in human history. One of those periods happened in 1776 in America.

[Horn]

There is no such thing as Human being cells...You all basically act like animals...


http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6732&stc=1

[Ponce]

Palani......so this means that we became "civilize" when we were able to kill a person legally? ....... well as far as I am concern we are still a bunch of barbarians.

V

[palani]

Palani......so this means that we became "civilize" when we were able to kill a person legally? ....... well as far as I am concern we are still a bunch of barbarian.

V

The only one who can kill a person is the author of that person. And he does this by just not creating the person to begin with. You cannot kill what is not living. A person is not flesh and blood. It is a concept. Or perhaps you want to call it a witness.

A person is an action, a word or representation.

[Hatha Sunahara]

Just so we are all on the same page, take a look at this Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization

About two thirds of the way down this page there is discussion about what causes civilizations to fall.

My view is based on the perception of 'decay' which is a synonym for 'corruption'. It is a departure from wise administration of affairs. In other words when the incompetent or evil people take the reigns of power, there is a risk that the civilization will fail. Can anyone think of any current examples of this?


Hatha

[mick silver]

so your saying that are government is full of 'corruption'

[Hatha Sunahara]

so your saying that are government is full of 'corruption'

I'm asking if anyone has noticed it.

I think Theodore Mommsen got it right with the five phases of empire, but he put decay last. I think collapse is immediately after decay. It's like a house infected with dry rot. Over time, the wood loses its stregth as it decays, and eventually, the structure collapses. So too with human civilizations. The rot in civilizations are the stupid and unjust 'laws' passed by the corrupt rulers that cause the masses to be less enthusiastic about belonging to a body politic from which they derive no benefit, but are saddled with all the costs. Sorta like what Hypertiger keeps repeating--people in the system taking more out than they are contributing. Those people are oblivious to how unfairly their behavior is perceived--and that is what I call the rot, or decay, or corruption. If you hear or see the word plutocracy defining a civilization, you know it is in decay and ready to collapse.


Hatha

[palani]

Civilization is a Starbucks. When Starbucks go away civilization vanishes.

[palani]

Offered as an example of a failing civilization:

The only property owner in downtown Ottumwa is the City of Ottumwa. Never forget the 1st plank of the manifesto ... NO PRIVATE PROPERTY.

Then these cameras were bought with a federal grant of $375,000.

http://archive.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110918/NEWS03/309180058/Munson-Ottumwa-police-electronic-eyes-you




OTTUMWA, IA. — Look up, smile and wave the next time you take a stroll through downtown Ottumwa.

Even if you don’t notice Jim Clark anywhere within eyeshot, he might see you.

Clark, the city’s police chief for a department of 40 officers, can peer down through 29 new video cameras being installed these recent weeks on street corners and rooftops. This city of 25,000 residents has become one of Iowa’s most saturated downtowns in terms of police video surveillance, particularly for its size.

Clark ushers me into his officers’ work area, one of two spots in the downtown police station (along with the dispatch control room) where flat-screen TVs flash the full array of wireless video feeds.

“Let’s find a parked car,” Clark says as he mouse-clicks his way around to zoom in and focus on the crystal-clear image of an individual license plate nearly two blocks away.

These cameras pan and tilt with a 35-times optical zoom that can render a business card legible from 500 feet. All footage is recorded and stored a minimum of two weeks to let officers retroactively catch scofflaws red-handed.

Each camera even comes complete with its own heater and exhaust blower to guard against Iowa’s icy winters.

Clicking over to another camera, Clark peers across the street and beyond a parking lot into a fast-food restaurant’s drive-through window.

“You can just about see what they’re getting from their orders from McDonald’s,” he says while leaning forward with a squint.

Of course, this is the sort of scenario that gives civil libertarians fits — one more step towards omniscience for the authorities. Not to mention that science fiction writers have been trying to warn us for years.

But I have to admit that the congenial Clark, 54, seems a much less menacing watcher than, say, robot HAL 9000 from “2001: A Space Odyssey” — even if Clark soon will be able to monitor city streets with a laptop computer from the comfort of his own bedroom.

For the record, Clark is the first to invoke the classic Orwellian metaphor when he says that he “tried to pick a sign that was not very ‘Big Brother-like.’ ”

Twenty-five copies of the sign in question will be posted throughout downtown as part of Ottumwa’s overall deterrence effort: “For your protection all activities are recorded by video surveillance.”

Clark has spent much of the year trying to reassure citizens — in meetings, newspaper editorials, TV newscasts, radio shows — that his goal is public safety, not scrutiny of everyday activities.

These cameras help Ottumwa protect property owners and revitalize a downtown district riddled with vacant shopfronts, Clark says. He’ll be able to redeploy officers to other neighborhoods as needed.

Those crying foul over invasion of privacy, Clark says, likely haven’t been crime victims.

I agree that most of us by now should be desensitized to strict video surveillance on casino floors, college campuses and sports stadiums — you know, places where lots of money, hormones and alcohol tend to collide.

If cameras on the average city street feel more intrusive, maybe we’re just not thinking about the marketing potential: Since the Decorah eagles were such a big online viral video hit, what if Des Moines could install more cameras and somehow broadcast Downtown Farmers Market footage for the people-watching sport? (Providing public feeds for Ottumwa’s cameras would be cost-prohibitive, Clark said, not to mention any legal snags.)

Clark has been fielding calls from other Iowa police departments asking how he scrounged the funds. It was a $375,000 federal grant, with $75,000 devoted to installing computers in squad cars to monitor the video feeds. Bids were low enough that the number of planned cameras nearly doubled, with dollars also devoted to a long-term maintenance contract, spare parts and extra terabytes of computer server memory.

A 30th mobile camera will give Clark’s officers the flexibility to pinpoint unforeseen crime hotspots.

“I don’t really want to go into what it’s going to look like,” Clark said of the mobile camera — verifying it wouldn’t be disguised as an obvious, tacky petunia planter.

Ottumwa worked with a consultant from Kansas City, with Chicago-based Current Technologies as the vendor. Each landlord where cameras were installed signed contracts and also foots the electric bill.

Clark was mulling the need for video surveillance as far back as the 1990s when he supervised the night shift. Nearly a decade ago he wrote a paper on the topic when he enrolled in a local college course.

“It was wild several years ago,” Clark said of a crime spike that included gang activity at a former after-hours club.

Ottumwa police fielded 271 violent crime and 1,038 property crime reports last year, marking a 17 percent decrease since 2006.

It's not exactly a foregone conclusion that cameras will quicken Ottumwa’s decrease in crime. Most studies on the effectiveness of police video surveillance had been based in England and the camera-blanketed capital of London. Conclusions were varied, but more American research is emerging.

A Temple University study in 2006 of 18 cameras in Philadelphia measured a 13 percent reduction in overall crime — particularly property crime. A much larger Temple study of more than 100 cameras in Philly is due within a few weeks.

The Justice Policy Center at the nonpartisan Urban Institute in Washington, D.C., releases full results Monday of its own new study of surveillance in three major cities: Chicago (with more than 2,000 cameras), Baltimore (400) and Washington (70).

The center’s director, Nancy G. LaVigne, said that surveillance cameras “can be effective in reducing crime in high-crime areas if there’s sufficient camera coverage to really have an impact.”

Clark plans to track his own local stats in the years ahead.

“I think people over time won’t even know any different,” he says of awareness of the cameras.

Doris Noland seems to agree while standing outside the local McDonald’s after lunch — the same restaurant Clark and I eyeballed from the police station. She isn’t bothered in the least when I point out Big Brother staring from across the street, from the top of an old International Order of Odd Fellows building. She’s staunchly pro-camera to “keep the criminals aside.”

But the only hubbub on view this day at McDonald’s, she concedes, is the rush for free ice cream provided to senior citizens.

I suppose a slow riot could ensue if the soft-serve machine conks out.

Later I run into Chris Cruz, loitering outside the downtown telemarketing firm where he works.

“Doesn’t bother me,” he says. “I’m from Chicago. (Cameras) have been there for years.”

In search of cranky iconoclasts I slip into Smokin’ Jo’s Bar & Grill on Church Street, whose front door stands within full view of a camera across the street.

“We’re getting more like Russia every year!” protests a retiree bellied up to the bar with two of his buddies. He refuses to bow to the injustice of wearing a seat belt, let alone provide his name for publication in the newspaper.

I leave before talk turns to Obamacare and our modern socialist state.

But on the way out of town I do obey all laws and give a little wave out my car window just in case Clark notices.

[Ponce]

This discussion is above my pay grade.....I am going back to the sugar cane field.

V

[mick silver]

your in the matrix ponce there no leaving

[Horn]

This discussion is above my pay grade.....I am going back to the sugar cane field.

V

An acting example of the entitled lower class,

Corruption is a two way street, and symptom of root cause in diminishing returns.

Civilization starts a decay phase as soon as the class is caste.

[gunDriller]

your in the matrix ponce there no leaving

best we can do is live collapse, and to lead seminars about collapse.

but without paying yuppie customers ...