Promissory notes - who knows

[Glass]

Interesting question. My belief was that outside of a claim against an estate, any debts die with the debtor. I'm wondering if someone can indebt a 3rd party who was not a party to the instrument by virtue of them being an heir to the maker of the instrument?

The next questions would be, what constitutes an heir?

What if someone dies intestate and without any assets? Does there have to be an estate for there to be heirs? Does an estate have to have value or assets to exist?

[palani]

Interesting question. My belief was that outside of a claim against an estate, any debts die with the debtor. I'm wondering if someone can indebt a 3rd party who was not a party to the instrument by virtue of them being an heir to the maker of the instrument?
The 'person' may die yet the estate continues. Evidence of a person dying is their account name in CAPITALS on a tombstone. The debt is attached to the estate until notice is placed in a paper giving a specific time period for evidence of the debt to be presented for payment to the executor.




what constitutes an heir? The act of dying. You have no heirs until you are dead.


What if someone dies intestate and without any assets? A good source is the first paragraph or two of the Northwest Ordinance (not valid in Australia but still good info). Common law generally provides for an estate to be divided 1/3 to the wife, 1/3 split between the kids and 1/3 as directed by the last will and testament. Notice in this equation there is no room for probate court nor attorney fees. Die intestate and this formula will be used. However, the attorneys do want you to die with a will so they have some basis for tapping into


Does there have to be an estate for there to be heirs? Heirs must have a reason to come forward. The carrot works better than the stick.


Does an estate have to have value or assets to exist? Attorneys look for any excuse to send a bill. An estate that is small does not attract much attention. My own estate is valued at $5 face value of gold (an 1878 piece) and twenty one big round silver dollars.

Of those we send to congress we say their primary goal is to build their estate.

[Glass]

yes notice of claims etc, however are there always heirs if there are offspring or do heirs come into existence when there is an estate. OR is it as you suggest, when there is a death? If there is no estate, not just the absence of a will but the absence of any thing of value, are there heirs?

My estimation is that there must be something of value to create an estate with. If there are no things to put into estate do heirs still exist?

[palani]

are there always heirs if there are offspring or do heirs come into existence when there is an estate. OR is it as you suggest, when there is a death? There are no heirs prior to death. After death the heirs make themselves known or distance themselves from the estate.



If there is no estate, not just the absence of a will but the absence of any thing of value, are there heirs? There is always an estate although it might be limited to the corpus alone.


My estimation is that there must be something of value to create an estate with. If there are no things to put into estate do heirs still exist? If there is nothing of value then what is the motivation for an heir to come forward? Anciently corruption of blood worked on the heir. Under these circumstances I wouldn't expect any heir to be truly forthcoming about his link to the estate.

Your queen has an estate in her title. Seems like claiming this estate could be extremely valuable or an extreme liability.

[Glass]

in general thought amongst regular people, the offspring of a person are usually considered to be the heirs once they had died. I'm curious in legal terms if this is also the accepted situation. Anyone identified as offspring is an heir? Or are you saying that an heir must make notice and claim against the estate as an heir. just like any other party would need to make notice or presentment of claim?

I don't think heirs exist unless there is an estate. Or another way, Does heir mean inheritor?

[palani]

Anyone identified as offspring is an heir? Or are you saying that an heir must make notice and claim against the estate as an heir. just like any other party would need to make notice or presentment of claim? The estate could be in the common law plane or could be in the commercial plane. As mentioned previously the estate could also be in the political plane and I have no doubt that there exists a natural plane as well. The EQUITY plane also bears considering. The law is only concerned with things in the plane over which they exercise jurisdiction. An estate might exist in the political plane (title of nobility) and a different estate might exist over land or personal goods. A commercial plane might include obligations (debt) as well as assets. The legal system tends to lump all these together yet treat items in these planes as being separate. Some things are divisible. How can something indivisible be divided between multiple heirs ... as the title of Earl or King? Things that are divisible might be portioned out to several heirs based upon their degree of CONSANGUINITY.


It is proper here to notice a difference in the meaning of the word heir, as it is understood by the common and by, the civil law. By the civil law, the term heirs was applied to all persons who were called to the succession, whether by the act of the party or by operation of law. The person who was created universal successor by a will, was called the testamentary heir; and the next of kin by blood was, in cases of intestaby, called the heir at law, or heir by intestacy. The executor of the common law is, in many respects, not unlike the testamentary heir of the civil law. Again, the administrator ln many respects corresponds with the heir by intestacy. By the common law, executors unless expressly authorized by the will and administrators, have no right, except to the personal estate of the deceased; whereas, the heir by the civil law was authorized to administer both the personal and real estate.



I don't think heirs exist unless there is an estate. Or another way, Does heir mean inheritor?


INHERITANCE, estates. A perpetuity in lands to a man and his heirs; or it is the right to succeed to the estate of a person who died intestate. Dig. 50, 16, 24. The term is applied to lands.

2. The property which is inherited is called an inheritance.

3. The term inheritance includes not only lands and tenements which have been acquired by descent, but also every fee simple or fee tail, which a person has acquired by purchase, may be said to be an inheritance, because the purchaser's heirs may inherit it. Litt. s. 9.

4. Estates of inheritance are divided into inheritance absolute, or fee simple; and inheritance limited, one species of which is called fee tail. They are also divided into corporeal, as houses and lands and incorporeal, commonly called incorporeal hereditaments. (q. v.) 1 Cruise, Dig. 68; Sw. 163; Poth. des Retraits, n. 2 8.

5. Among the civilians, by inheritance is understood the succession to all the rights of the deceased. It is of two kinds, 1 . That which arises by testament, when the testator gives his succession to a particular person; and, 2. That which arises by operation of law, which is called succession ab intestat. Hein. Lec. El. 484, 485.