Submersible pump knowledge anyone?

[Libertytree]

Right now I have a 1/4HP pump and its rated at 30 gals per min. I need a little more umph though so I'm looking at upgrading a notch to the 1/3HP that's rated at 40 GPM.

Is the 10 GPM a significant bump up?

[midnight rambler]

How much head do you have in that application? That is a big determining factor, more than the GPM rating imo.

And try to stay away from the made in China shit.

[Libertytree]

How much head do you have in that application? That is a big determining factor, more than the GPM rating imo.

And try to stay away from the made in China shit.

I'm gonna have to think about how to answer that question, given the unorthodox nature of the application.

[midnight rambler]

I'm gonna have to think about how to answer that question, given the unorthodox nature of the application.

Pretty simple calculation - the total height the pump has to lift from point A (where the pump is working) to point B (where the discharge point is, i.e. where the water flow driven by the pump breaks free of the load on the pump such that the pump is no longer having to push it UP).

[Libertytree]

I can't explain it and it's probably one of those things that just have to be tried but I respect the braintrust here.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6786&stc=1

[Horn]

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hazen-williams-water-d_797.html

[Dogman]

For your washer?

Seems you were looking for one before.

[Horn]

Sometimes you can shave or switch the pump impeller to get the perfect desired result.

Best thing is to match the outlet of the pump, to what you're mating.

[midnight rambler]

Nice decorative fountain setup.

Forget head ratings unless you can do all the engineering calculations, this looks like strictly trial and error to dial it in.

Remember that if you decrease your (total area of) orifice openings you will improve your pressure.

[osoab]

Go with a 1/2 or 3/4 horse. No need to mess around with a 1/3 horse.

[Neuro]

I am on the market for a 12V submersible pump that can manage a 20 feet head, a half gallon per minute should be sufficient, and it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg (let's say below $100), and with a low power consumption (10-15W)... Impossible equation?

[Neuro]

I can't explain it and it's probably one of those things that just have to be tried but I respect the braintrust here.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6786&stc=1
Is that a colonic irrigator? ;D

[Dogman]

Many out there both sub's and above ground.

At 12 volts 15w = 1.25 amps d.c. Here is one with a 5m head.

http://www.amazon.com/DC40-1250-Brushless-Magnetic-Centrifugal-Submersible/dp/B008F29MYA/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1410970288&sr=8-10&keywords=12+volt+submersible+pump

Just keep in mind your spec of 15w=1.25 amp current draw. (watt / voltage = amps)

More

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=12%20volt%20submersible%20pump

[Dogman]

Is that a colonic irrigator? ;D

Ouch!

lmfao!

[Neuro]

Many out there both sub's and above ground.

At 12 volts 15w = 1.25 amps d.c. Here is one with a 5m head.

http://www.amazon.com/DC40-1250-Brushless-Magnetic-Centrifugal-Submersible/dp/B008F29MYA/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1410970288&sr=8-10&keywords=12+volt+submersible+pump

Just keep in mind your spec of 15w/1.25 amp current draw.

More

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=12%20volt%20submersible%20pump
5 meters is not enough... I need at least 6 meters. It is for a property we bought last year, which has a shallow well about 4 meters deep and another 2-3 meters up to the house from the well. It seems like I end up somewhere in between the cheap and low consuming submersible RV-/Boat- pumps, and the expensive high consuming deep well pumps. The house is connected to the electric grid and the local water works, but the fees are obscene for the miniscule consumption we have, so I bought this small $120 45 Watt 12V solar panel system, that I can run the led lamps of the house with. Sure I can buy more solar panels and run a deep well pump like shurflo, but I would also need to buy a bigger battery, but it seems like overkill, I like to keep it simple. Possibly I could get that submersible pump, or something similar, and then connect another small non-submersible pump, to the hose as it comes up from the dug well, to pump the water to the house. But then on the other hand it becomes more complicated...

I am going to spend my spare time this winter to renovate this house so we can rent it out to Germans, who just love this area of Sweden on a weekly basis, probably we can rent it through an agency for around €600-700/week. We bought it for about €10,000, so with 2-3 summers of renting it for 6-10 weeks we have payed off the house. But electric and water fees certainly eats into the profit, so if we take it off the grids, we'll make a bigger profit, plus we have a house that is SHTF proof, we have a ceramic wood stove, a cast iron kitchen stove and an open fire stove upstairs for heating and cooking.

The two pump solution looks attractive, but I suppose I should buy two of each so I have spare pumps in case of malfunction, that would come to about $100...

[Neuro]

Ouch!

lmfao!
The rainbow carpet is a giveaway! ;D

[Dogman]

5 meters is not enough... I need at least 6 meters. It is for a property we bought last year, which has a shallow well about 4 meters deep and another 2-3 meters up to the house from the well. It seems like I end up somewhere in between the cheap and low consuming submersible RV-/Boat- pumps, and the expensive high consuming deep well pumps. The house is connected to the electric grid and the local water works, but the fees are obscene for the miniscule consumption we have, so I bought this small $120 45 Watt 12V solar panel system, that I can run the led lamps of the house with. Sure I can buy more solar panels and run a deep well pump like shurflo, but I would also need to buy a bigger battery, but it seems like overkill, I like to keep it simple. Possibly I could get that submersible pump, or something similar, and then connect another small non-submersible pump, to the hose as it comes up from the dug well, to pump the water to the house. But then on the other hand it becomes more complicated...

I am going to spend my spare time this winter to renovate this house so we can rent it out to Germans, who just love this area of Sweden on a weekly basis, probably we can rent it through an agency for around €600-700/week. We bought it for about €10,000, so with 2-3 summers of renting it for 6-10 weeks we have payed off the house. But electric and water fees certainly eats into the profit, so if we take it off the grids, we'll make a bigger profit, plus we have a house that is SHTF proof, we have a ceramic wood stove, a cast iron kitchen stove and an open fire stove upstairs for heating and cooking.

The two pump solution looks attractive, but I suppose I should buy two of each so I have spare pumps in case of malfunction, that would come to about $100...


Well nothing would keep you from doing multistage, it in two stages using a intermediate reservoir on the first stage except maybe limited space? Two pumps and one or two tanks depending how elaborate you want to go, gravity fed tap or pressure feed/delivery on demand.

Two cheap (r) pumps one from the source into a tank, and another to complete the journey. as long as the tank can hold the volume you require.

Just a thought.

[Dogman]

The rainbow carpet is a giveaway! ;D



:o

Whooooo!


Lt!


LOL !

Southern roast!

;D

[Spectrism]

Wow!! Group colonic irrigator... go with 10HP. Or, is that a Nancy Pelosi netherparts flush station?


Actually.. looking pretty good. 1/4 to a 1/3 HP is pretty good bump for this application. What percentage of performance did you see for what you had? In other words, on a scale of 1 to 10 for the flow and outlet pressure using the smaller pump, how would you rate it?

The larger the pump, the more cost, typically... so economy of function needs to be optimized.

[Libertytree]

Wow!! Group colonic irrigator... go with 10HP. Or, is that a Nancy Pelosi netherparts flush station?


Actually.. looking pretty good. 1/4 to a 1/3 HP is pretty good bump for this application. What percentage of performance did you see for what you had? In other words, on a scale of 1 to 10 for the flow and outlet pressure using the smaller pump, how would you rate it?

The larger the pump, the more cost, typically... so economy of function needs to be optimized.

I'd give it about a 7, good, but just not quite good enough. The cost difference is $30, from $50 to $80. I can get that lowered to mitigate the cost a bit but if it does the trick it'll be worth every penny.

Oh...and Neuro, if you're interested in one of these colonic irrigators as you call it I'd be happy to sell ya one :) None of my business what ya do with it and it sounds like you'll already have a pump for it!

[Neuro]

Well nothing would keep you from doing multistage, it in two stages using a intermediate reservoir on the first stage except maybe limited space? Two pumps and one or two tanks depending how elaborate you want to go, gravity fed tap or pressure feed/delivery on demand.

Two cheap (r) pumps one from the source into a tank, and another to complete the journey. as long as the tank can hold the volume you require.

Just a thought.
I am thinking skipping the tanks, the pumps should start on pressure reduction, iow when you open the faucet, the pumps start working, I know there are pumps like that, however I am not sure if they would work properly with two pumps in tandem. My first choice would be to have just one pump though...

[Dogman]

I am thinking skipping the tanks, the pumps should start on pressure reduction, iow when you open the faucet, the pumps start working, I know there are pumps like that, however I am not sure if they would work properly with two pumps in tandem.

Cheap float level switch on the first, a demand pressure pump on the second leg.

But as you said their are other pumps out there, that can do it in one jump, it is the head and power limitations of keeping it at no more than 1.25a/15w and your stated price level!

[Neuro]

Cheap level float switch on the first, a demand pressure pump on the second leg.

But as you said their are other pumps out there, that can do it in one jump, it is the head and power limitations of keeping it at no more than 1.25a/15w.
I suppose it could be a bit more than 15w too, I figure it's not going to run for that long, a shower at most should take 15 minutes or so...

[Dogman]

I suppose it could be a bit more than 15w too, I figure it's not going to run for that long, a shower at most should take 15 minutes or so...


Depending how done, two level switched one for high level and low level, hell I can make them out of stuff I have in my junk box.

Feeder pump only runs to supply tank when level gets too low and shuts down on full, the demand pump then has the only current draw when in use.

The only time both would run if the supply tank runs low and water is being used.

Edit: got to thinking, Ouch!

Little more tricky than I first stated, low level trips the pump, small rely latches to enable and ignore low level switch resetting when the water level rises, pump runs until hi level switch trips and then everything resets.

Still cheap.

But for simplicity just eat the bullet and buy a pump that will do the job in one step as long as the source can keep up with the demand .

15 min shower?

May need a reservoir for that, depending on the source recharge rate.

[Spectrism]

I'd give it about a 7, good, but just not quite good enough. The cost difference is $30, from $50 to $80. I can get that lowered to mitigate the cost a bit but if it does the trick it'll be worth every penny.

Oh...and Neuro, if you're interested in one of these colonic irrigators as you call it I'd be happy to sell ya one :) None of my business what ya do with it and it sounds like you'll already have a pump for it!

To get to a 10, you would probably need a 0.36HP pump. My guess is that a .33HP will get you up to about an 8.5 satisfaction.

[Libertytree]

To get to a 10, you would probably need a 0.36HP pump. My guess is that a .33HP will get you up to about an 8.5 satisfaction.

I hate to show my ignorance but what exactly is a 0.36HP pump in relation to a 1/4 HP pump (a 1/2HP) or am I totally missing something?

[Dogman]

I hate to show my ignorance but what exactly is a 0.36HP pump in relation to a 1/4 HP pump (a 1/2HP) or am I totally missing something?

1\3 ?

[Horn]

Evil 2/3 or .666 HP would be Horn's choice.:cool:


http://www.amazon.com/Tsurumi-Pumps-Submersible-Water-Pump/dp/B0000AX14P

[Spectrism]

I hate to show my ignorance but what exactly is a 0.36HP pump in relation to a 1/4 HP pump (a 1/2HP) or am I totally missing something?

I don't think you will ever find a .36HP motor but that gives you a target to shoot above for what you want. If you can be happy with a little more, the 1/3 is likely going to work alright.

[Libertytree]

I don't think you will ever find a .36HP motor but that gives you a target to shoot above for what you want. If you can be happy with a little more, the 1/3 is likely going to work alright.

I've never seen a .36HP model and had to think you were pullin my chain. Thanks for the clarification though.

[Horn]

What's the thing for?

[Horn]

I am just looking at those nozzle ports, are the center holes on the nozzles actually a functioning outlet?

Can't tell.

Wonder if just those holes on the center of the nozzles could not be plugged... or eliminated/melted in some fashion.

May give you the desired rise you are looking for.

[Spectrism]

It's a secret. You need to give the right password for that information. For now, consider a Lindsey Graham and Barnie Frank party toy.

[Horn]

Upper large chamber needs an air/sealed chamber (smaller od pipe) to take up the volume of the large upper chamber. Screw on top.

Maybe a small valve to blow off excess.

[Horn]

Like a brake fluid reservoir in the car.

[Spectrism]

Upper large chamber needs an air/sealed chamber (smaller od pipe) to take up the volume of the large upper chamber. Screw on top.

Maybe a small valve to blow off excess.

Not necessary. The pump is centrifugal so you don't have to worry about excessive pressure. A positive displacement pump might be a concern but there are so many ports that there is assured pressure relief in many locations.

[Libertytree]

Upper large chamber needs an air/sealed chamber (smaller od pipe) to take up the volume of the large upper chamber. Screw on top.

Maybe a small valve to blow off excess.

The best I've come up with on that front is to shorten the main tube by 1in. I wish there was a flat 2in cap but they don't exist.

No need for a blow off valve, as there's not an over supply of pressure. That's why I'm stepping up in pumps, I need just a tad more pressure. Over pressure would be easy for me to fix.

If I'm still lacking pressure, I have a couple more tweaks I can install but I'm thinking/hoping the increased pump size will solve everything.

One thing that I have read about is the use of a check valve, to keep water from falling back into the pump but I have no way of knowing if that's actually happening or not. I suspect not but it's in the back of my mind as a last resort.

[midnight rambler]

What's the thing for?

It's a layover to catch meddlers with.

Or a Barney Frank/Lindsey Gayham party toy. Take yur pick.

[Neuro]

What's the thing for?
Colonic irrigation of politicians and others full of shit...

[Spectrism]

Colonic irrigation of politicians and others full of shit...


Its not only for big assholes but those with multiple assholes. I think you will need 20 of these to supply all of CONgress during their party. Send another 10 for the White House staff. Valerie Jarrett will get her own and keep all nozzles in use by herself.

[Horn]

One thing that I have read about is the use of a check valve, to keep water from falling back into the pump but I have no way of knowing if that's actually happening or not. I suspect not but it's in the back of my mind as a last resort.

Something, anything... to take up volume in the upper chamber should decrease turbulence into the smaller ports. From what I remember (and it was some time ago), when you use an increaser outside of a pump, that's what you get, turbulence. It got to be a nice smooth increase to minimize.

Maybe a reducer up top?

Hell who knows, that thing you got there is pretty freak unique...no standard engineering rules apply. You have to be the flight test pilot.

A 1/2 hp to 2 inch discharge, may just blow your nozzles off.

[skid]

If you want to know what pump you need, check the pump flow curve for flow desired and head (height) to pump to. No need to guess....

[Horn]

If you want to know what pump you need, check the pump flow curve for flow desired and head (height) to pump to. No need to guess....

Head is also he friction loss thru all the different diameters and nozzles.

You can figure it out if someone has already metered that info. For you.

Or go get dual pressure meters and attachments along with a variable pump to figure it out...

[Spectrism]

Turbulence is not an issue here. Turbulence would be fine- even preferable. The top is static so there is no flow there to consider for sizing or pressure losses. There are too many complications to calculate head with pump curves. The best thing in this case is trial & error.

[Horn]

Arresting is a better word than turbulence.

He's losing energy in that upper chamber with the increase in diameter volume.

Head increases with a larger pipe, because there's more weight of water pushing back.

[Libertytree]

Turbulence is not an issue here. Turbulence would be fine- even preferable. The top is static so there is no flow there to consider for sizing or pressure losses. There are too many complications to calculate head with pump curves. The best thing in this case is trial & error.

I agree and that's why I pulled the trigger on the 1/3 HP pump yesterday. If it can get me a little closer I can make other mods but maybe it'll work fine with no further mods needed.

[Spectrism]

Arresting is a better word than turbulence.
He's losing energy in that upper chamber with the increase in diameter volume.
Head increases with a larger pipe, because there's more weight of water pushing back.

Actually... no. Head pressure is the height of the column only. If you have a 1/2 inch pipe full of water 20 feet high, the head pressure will be exactly the same as a 3 inch pipe twenty feet high right next to it. If your pipes are at sea level, that is also the same pressure you would feel going 20 feet under water.

That is all static pressure. When you are talking about flows and drag/form (pipe) losses, then you are considering dynamic pressure losses.

[Horn]

then you are considering dynamic pressure losses.

Yes, semantically or otherwise lose them.

Onto 1/3 horse, LT.

[Libertytree]

Yes, semantically or otherwise lose them.

Onto 1/3 horse, LT.

Yeah, it was a semi-educated guess at best with all the different variables. I just wish I could have afforded overnight shipping and I'd have answers right now, good thing I'm patient.

[skid]

You need to determine your system curve and match it with a pump curve. How do your many sprinkler holes area match up with the pump discharge area?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pump-system-curves-d_635.html

[Neuro]

You need to determine your system curve and match it with a pump curve. How do your many sprinkler holes area match up with the pump discharge area?

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pump-system-curves-d_635.html
I think in LT's case the best would be a practical trial and error to optimize the performance. The systems profile would be practically impossible to calculate..., even if it is possible it just is too difficult vs investing $50, 80 or 130 if you have to get both...

[Dogman]

Rocket science vs. Slingshot needs?

;)

[Horn]

Maybe, just maybe we could design one of those RAM pumps inside the large upper chambers,

Like the Egyptains did in the Great Pyramid!




http://www.membrandruckbehaelter.com/images/shockguard-units.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlCW2lvacRE


Then we wouldn't need a pump at all! Just a nearby stream!

1+1=2 :)

[Neuro]

Maybe, just maybe we could design one of those RAM pumps inside the large upper chambers,

Like the Egyptains did in the Great Pyramid!



Then we wouldn't need a pump at all! Just a nearby stream!

1+1=2 :)
Hell, just an atomic bomb on the Aswan dam, and the WHOLE congress could get colonic irrigation in Giza!

[Spectrism]

Maybe, just maybe we could design one of those RAM pumps inside the large upper chambers,

Like the Egyptains did in the Great Pyramid!

Then we wouldn't need a pump at all! Just a nearby stream!

1+1=2 :)

Barney Frank would be glad to give you a ram pump.