Montana cop sobs after fatally shooting unarmed suspect

[mick silver]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/montana-cop-sobs-fatally-shooting-075921575.html

[Ares]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/montana-cop-sobs-fatally-shooting-075921575.html

LMAO I thought that news anchor looked familiar.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/web02/2009/3/9/20/news-anchor-looks-like-wanted-rapist-15953-1236643459-9.jpg

[collector]

LMAO - Good one Ares !!


Mixed thoughts on the video. Cop seems to be justified and the guy was an idiot for not just keeping his hands in plain view. Cop seemed to be genuinely upset - unfortunately that'll end his advancement in law enforcement. Sadistic killers that shoot women and children get promotions (usually to federal positions) while honest caring guys get sidelined.

[Spectrism]

That was the second unarmed victim this asshole murdered. His crocodile tears don't show the aggressive cowardly bastard he is.

I hope the family sue the shit out of the cop and the town. It was an execution because officer tough guy was afraid. The precedence is that a cop has the right to shoot anyone if he is afraid you might have a gun. This opens pandora's box to all sorts of abuse.

[midnight rambler]

I assert that ALL trigger happy cops are fucking cowards who would (and do!) shit their pants if they actually ran up against someone capable of taking 'em out in a flash (because they lack the instincts and reflexes to actually take care of business if and when the need really arises).

[Hitch]

I assert that ALL trigger happy cops are fucking cowards who would (and do!) shit their pants if they actually ran up against someone capable of taking 'em out in a flash (because they lack the instincts and reflexes to actually take care of business if and when the need really arises).

It's the old west. Don't be pissed at the cop if you are slower to draw on your gun, than he is.

Train harder.

If you draw down on a cop, expect him to respond the same way. As any man would.

[midnight rambler]

It's the old west. Don't be pissed at the cop if you are slower to draw on your gun, than he is.

Train harder.

If you draw down on a cop, expect him to respond the same way. As any man would.

The problem is, those cowards draw down on ya and just start shooting, COMPLETELY unprovoked. Hell's belles, if you got someone IN YOUR SIGHTS what's the need to start slinging lead IF they haven't actually displayed a weapon?? Dayum.

The bad guys are NO 'badder' today than they were 50, 100, 150 years ago. What's changed is there are a TONS more fucking donut eating pussies walking around with badges.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noP2oqp4mO8

[Hitch]

The problem is, those cowards draw down on ya and just start shooting, COMPLETELY unprovoked.

The bad guys are NO 'badder' today than they were 50, 100, 150 years ago. What's changed is there are a TONS more fucking donut eating pussies walking around with badges.

It's funny because I always see the cops as having the disadvantage.

You lose 3/4 of a second just recognizing a gun. From when your eyes see gun, to tell your brain a gun, to react.

That gives the bad guy a 3/4 of second advantage, on you. I could unholster and fire 2 shots center mass on target in 1.5 seconds.

That was fast, but not fast enough for a bad guy who had a gun, and wanted to use it against me.

[midnight rambler]

That was fast, but not fast enough for a bad guy who had a gun, and wanted to use it against me.

Using the instant case in the OP as an example (which is really idiotic since these days it's all about sticking a searchlight up EVERYONE'S ass and not at all about keeping the peace) - a cop pulls over a car full of people BY HIMSELF at night (just plain stupid). Realistically he's already outnumbered and if the CARLOAD of people have it in for him he's ALREADY lost. The solution: BE A MAN and approach with confidence (again, pulling over a carload of people at night BY YOURSELF is ill advised in the first damn place, except of course for the Testosterone Rangers) i.e. with sidearm unholstered and IN THE READY POSITION. This would telegraph the message immediately: the shooting may start but one or more of you is getting it and I'm REAL FUCKING CONFIDENT in my ability to take out every one of you assholes.

It's all about seizing the initiative. Did they not teach you this 'in the academy'??

Bad Guy: You're so drunk you're probably seeing double.

Doc Holliday: I've got two guns, one for each of ya.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co5xVHsMRV0


That was fast, but not fast enough for a bad guy who had a gun, and wanted to use it against me.

If someone is intent on assassinating you, then you don't have a snowball's chance in Hell in the first place.

[Spectrism]

And all the cops need to do is continue shooting unarmed, non-threat people... and they will find out what ambushes are like. They will bring on a lawlessness that will be violent and destructive. Good cops will get out. Bad cops will hide.

There are enough screwy people that will switch over night into violent mobs. The negros already had this in mind.

[midnight rambler]

And all the cops need to do is continue shooting unarmed, non-threat people... and they will find out what ambushes are like. They will bring on a lawlessness that will be violent and destructive. Good cops will get out. Bad cops will hide.

There are enough screwy people that will switch over night into violent mobs. The negros already had this in mind.

A powder keg sitting out in the open with the fuse dangling in the wind, ready for any spark or ember carried on the wind...


Good cops will get out. Bad cops will hide.

I submit that the 'good' cops have already gotten out 'cause all that's left are bad cops and cops who enable bad cops (which makes them bad cops as well since they are completely unable, incapable, and/or unwilling to police themselves effectively).

[Hitch]

It's all about seizing the initiative. Did they not teach you this 'in the academy'??

They did, but they also taught good tactics. If you react, you are always at the disadvantage.

Don't give anyone the opportunity to cause you react.

If you use good tactics, there won't be an opportunity to seize the initiative (your words).

[midnight rambler]

If you use good tactics, there won't be an opportunity to seize the initiative (your words).

Say what?? ??? WTH is THAT??

One TAKES the initiative at the get-go, and always denies it to the competition. Have you ever studied Sun Tzu?

[Hitch]

Say what?? ??? WTH is THAT??

One TAKES the initiative at the get-go, and always denies it to the competition. Have you ever studied Sun Tzu?

You don't give the opportunity for the initiative.

So, there's no "get-go". It's not a game, midnight.

[Spectrism]

They did, but they also taught good tactics. If you react, you are always at the disadvantage.
Don't give anyone the opportunity to cause you react.
If you use good tactics, there won't be an opportunity to seize the initiative (your words).

Not true. They are teaching aggressiveness and justifying it with lies.

First, the winning gunfighters did not have to draw first. They reacted with lighting reflexes prompted by the movement of the opponent. The reflex is faster than the deliberate motion. To win in a deliberate move, you must presume a threat to react to.

The idea of being the first on the draw is putting all people who encounter cops at risk. The cop does not see what you are doing so he shoots you to play it safe. If a cop does that to someone in my family, he will not be a cop for long.

[Hitch]

First, the winning gunfighters did not have to draw first. They reacted with lighting reflexes prompted by the movement of the opponent. The reflex is faster than the deliberate motion. To win in a deliberate move, you must presume a threat to react to.

You actually described a LE gunfight perfectly. Just like taught in academy.

You see a threat, recognize that threat, then react accordingly.

[midnight rambler]

You don't give the opportunity for the initiative.

So, there's no "get-go". It's not a game, midnight.

So this is your admission you've never studied Sun Tzu (because obviously you haven't lol).


It's not a game

This statement of your indicates that YOU regard it as some sort of game or contest 'cause the term 'get-go' has absolutely nothing to do with games.

[midnight rambler]

I've known for a long time that much of the 'information' passed on 'in the academy' is utter nonsense.


They reacted with lighting reflexes prompted by the movement of the opponent. The reflex is faster than the deliberate motion.

True, however cops these days generally don't practice, except just enough to qualify. I used to hang out with then 'SWAT team' composed strictly of patrol officers doing double duty at the time (there was no dedicated SWAT team). This was in a large city. One night when doing a ride-along with my buddy on the adhoc SWAT team we went to the range for a night shoot. The results were downright pathetic. Only two guys out of about 20 were able to get on the paper (the guy I was riding with and another).

[Hitch]

So this is your admission you've never studied Sun Tzu (because obviously you haven't lol).



This statement of your indicates that YOU regard it as some sort of game or contest 'cause the term 'get-go' has absolutely nothing to do with games.

I don't believe we needed this Tsun Zou for police work.

If there was a deadly threat, we answered it. If there was no deadly threat, there was no deadly force from us. Bottom line.

We were taught to watch behavior though.

You seem to think police need sneaky tactics to prevail, they don't. You just need a pair of balls and some training, that's it.

[Hitch]

I've known for a long time that much of the 'information' passed on 'in the academy' is utter nonsense.



True, however cops these days generally don't practice, except just enough to qualify. I used to hang out with then 'SWAT team' composed strictly of patrol officers doing double duty at the time (there was no dedicated SWAT team). This was in a large city. One night when doing a ride-along with my buddy on the adhoc SWAT team we went to the range for a night shoot. The results were downright pathetic. Only two guys out of about 20 were able to get on the paper (the guy I was riding with and another).

Cops do not target practice. They count shots center mass, how fast they can get them, and usually within 5-10 yards.

[mick silver]

did you also learn to lay down as many round as fast as you can to stop the target from moving

[midnight rambler]

Cops do not target practice.

Which would account for lack of proficiency, poor reflexes and inaccuracy. lol

30 years ago I got to hang out with Chip McC. both at the range shagging brass and at his home assisting him reloading (where I got to learn some things, that was my compensation lol), at the time the fastest pistolero around. As Chip put it, "I'm the fastest there is*; no brag, jus' fact." Chip was both accurate and FAST. He got there by firing hundreds of thousands of rounds in practice - there's no other way.

*until someone younger and faster came along - Chip was the winning all the pistol matches at the time.

[StreetsOfGold]

J. Frank Norris (among others) have had loaded guns pointed straight at them and the gunman could NOT shoot OR the gun would not shoot.
What stopped them?
God!

Always MISSING from the equation!

[EE_]

I don't believe we needed this Tsun Zou for police work.

If there was a deadly threat, we answered it. If there was no deadly threat, there was no deadly force from us. Bottom line.

We were taught to watch behavior though.

You seem to think police need sneaky tactics to prevail, they don't. You just need a pair of balls and some training, that's it.

At some point Mr. Hitch, you're going to have to step away from the cops of today. They are no longer the crime fighting good guys that were around when you were on the force. I bet their training has changed too.
Today everyone is perceived to be the enemy...men, women and children of any color.

[midnight rambler]

I don't believe we needed this Tsun Zou for police work.

Sun Tzu's treatise is more about human relations than anything else, so yeah, it's very useful in daily life no matter where one finds one's self.

[Hitch]

Today everyone is perceived to be the enemy...men, women and children of any color.

EE, that's how they trained us. Maybe it the crime ridden city I signed up for, maybe it's countrywide at this point. We were trained that everyone we came in contact with wants to kill us. You put on the blue uniform, and everyone wants to kill you.

For the most part, it was true, at least from my experience.

They also trained us to uphold the Constitution at all costs, even our lives. I'm sure that's changed with the cops of today.

[Spectrism]

EE, that's how they trained us. Maybe it the crime ridden city I signed up for, maybe it's countrywide at this point. We were trained that everyone we came in contact with wants to kill us. You put on the blue uniform, and everyone wants to kill you.

For the most part, it was true, at least from my experience.

They also trained us to uphold the Constitution at all costs, even our lives. I'm sure that's changed with the cops of today.

This makes your reflex action shoot unarmed and non-threat people. The mind automatically believes everyone is a threat and must be beaten to the trigger pull. Very dangerous mindset. This sets up an automatic enmity between all cops and all people who encounter cops.

[Hitch]

This makes your reflex action shoot unarmed and non-threat people. The mind automatically believes everyone is a threat and must be beaten to the trigger pull. .

Wrong, it does not make you pull the trigger. Does not make you pull the trigger unless deadly force is being used against you.

I have to be very clear about this point. It's a trained thought process that combines with muscle memory.

[Spectrism]

Wrong, it does not make you pull the trigger. Does not make you pull the trigger unless deadly force is being used against you.

I have to be very clear about this point. It's a trained thought process that combines with muscle memory.

You are dead wrong.

Programming the mind to see everyone as "wanting to kill you" means that you have released an unquestioning robot- the subconscious mind- to achieve the desired goal: go home safely at night.

Even the military does not train to that severe mindset. If this is being done in civilian America among police academies, it is no wonder that a great war will be breaking out soon between cops and good citizens.

[Hitch]

You are dead wrong.

Programming the mind to see everyone as "wanting to kill you" means that you have released an unquestioning robot- the subconscious mind- to achieve the desired goal: go home safely at night.

Even the military does not train to that severe mindset. If this is being done in civilian America among police academies, it is no wonder that a great war will be breaking out soon between cops and good citizens.

Spec, from my experience and how I was personally trained, you are the one who's dead wrong.

And, I say that with respect to you and your contributions to the forum.

I'm not sure how to explain how exactly the training works to make sense, but it's a step by step thought process. Threat = gun, that's muscle memory. Deadly threat = finger on the trigger and pull, thought process. The finger never ever goes on the trigger unless deadly force is absolutely needed.

[Spectrism]

Yeah, I've seen many videos of that well-controlled trigger finger.

The cell phone looked like a gun. Judge says- OK, understandable. Dismissed.
He had his hand in his pocket so I shot. OK, understandable. Case dismissed.

If I point a gun at someone, I commit assault. It is quite acceptable for a cop to do that. Why?

Cops are walking death threats to everyone.

[collector]

At first I thought the shooting was justified. He recognized the guy as being a suspect in a recent shooting, the guy was moving his hand out of sight after the cop gave multiple warnings.
However, looking at this guy's history - yeah, he's a trigger happy cop shedding crocodile tears with a history of shooting unarmed civilians while he himself wears a bullet proof vest;

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=686_1421093859&comments=1 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=686_1421093859&comments=1)

This, though, was not the first time Morrison shot and killed an unarmed, nonviolent person during a traffic stop. In 2013, Morrison shot and killed James Shaw after a routine traffic stop. Shaw, as you will have to carefully hear since the shooting is just out of the sight of the camera, is first hit with a taser then immediately shot and killed by Morrison. Morrison says (http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/jury-determines-officer-involved-shooting-justified/article_1bf70f42-ad90-58f9-8950-7b72d4bb1b61.html) he shot Shaw because he had a "crazed look on his face."
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=686_1421093859&comments=1#zbhMF6kzSrsvQv84.99

[Hitch]

If I point a gun at someone, I commit assault. It is quite acceptable for a cop to do that. Why?

You could point a gun at someone to stop a crime, and that would not be assault. Same for cops. If a cop sees a man breaking into a car and points a gun at him, it is not assault. If you see a man breaking into a car and you point a gun at him....it is not assault. It is a citizens arrest.

If you point a gun at someone for no reason, that's assault. If a cop points his gun at someone for no reason, that is assault as well.

If a cop using force or fear, takes an innocent man's money. That's robbery as well. Cops are not above the law, technically. The problem is there's gray area of the law. There's "interpretation" of the law. "I thought he was going for a gun" etc...how it is all articulated.

You could do the same. A man breaks into your home, and you shoot him, you could argue that you "thought he had a gun". If you articulate that well, it's justified.

[Twisted Titan]

Which would account for lack of proficiency, poor reflexes and inaccuracy. lolqq

30 years ago I got to hang out with Chip McC. both at the range shagging brass and at his home assisting him reloading (where I got to learn some things, that was my compensation lol), at the time the fastest pistolero around. As Chip put it, "I'm the fastest there is*; no brag, jus' fact." Chip was both accurate and FAST. He got there by firing hundreds of thousands of rounds in practice - there's no other way.

*until someone younger and faster came along - Chip was the winning all the pistol matches at the time.

But how does your average patriot have the time and resources to perfect this skill.

In these economic and political climate it is very challenging

[mick silver]

a few years back big gangs were putting some of there member into the arm forces for training and those member came back and train other members of the gangs . I know for a fact they look for tattoos and other marks before they let you join now . see how that works free training and also learn what how the other side does it business

[midnight rambler]

But how does your average patriot have the time and resources to perfect this skill.

In these economic and political climate it is very challenging

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/12671/laser-training-devices/