The Federal Reserve Bank Must Be Destroyed

[Ares]

“Delanda est in Susidium Foederatum Bank”

(The Federal Reserve Bank Must be Destroyed)

During the years of the Roman Republic, Cato the Elder ended every speech with the phrase “Delanda est Carthago” (Carthage must be destroyed). Rome had fought two wars with Carthage, yet the threat to the Republic remained. Cato saw Carthage as an existential threat and concluded that Rome would not be secure as long as Carthage existed. So fervently did he hold this view that he ended every speech, even about completely different subjects, with the famous phrase. I believe that we Austrians need to adopt a similar phrase to remind the American people that the US faces an existential threat from the machinations of the Federal Reserve Bank. “Delanda est in Susidium Foederatum Bank”…The Federal Reserve Bank must be destroyed. Like Carthage, the Federal Reserve Bank cannot be controlled or restrained. Either it or our republic will survive, but not both. For the sake of our nation, the Fed must be destroyed.



Founding the Fed Instead of Ending Fractional Reserve Banking

The Fed was founded under false economic premises–to prevent bank runs by providing temporary liquidity to banks which found themselves unable to redeem their certificates and demand deposits for cash and/or specie. The real cause of illiquid banks–fractional reserve banking–was never seriously addressed. It was assumed that banks had the legal right to invest their customers’ demand funds in loans and that runs were caused by over indulging in this practice. But as Murray N. Rothbard explain in What Has Government Done to Our Money?, loaning demand funds instantly places the bank in an insolvent position, for it cannot redeem all of its demand accounts for cash or specie. Through the process of lending demand funds, the banks have created fiduciary media out of thin air, reducing their reserve ratio below one hundred percent. If the banks do this on a very modest basis, the public may not be aware of the fraud. However, once the rumor starts that the bank is illiquid, there is a literal “run” to the bank to withdraw demand funds. In such a case, even a bank that only modestly lent its demand funds might find itself unable to honor all withdrawal claims and would be forced to close its doors.

(NOTE: Central Banking was established to legitimize counterfeiting fraud, aka – Fractional Reserve Banking)

The Federal Reserve Bank, as the lender of last resort, was supposed to prevent such occurrences by providing temporary, penalty rate loans to struggling banks. Note that there is nothing that a central bank could provide that could not be provided by another private bank. In fact the banking panic of 1907 was stemmed by private bank interventions led by J. P. Morgan. However, Morgan realized that such private bailouts were very risky and presented a case of moral hazard; i.e., that bankers, confident of a bailout by the Morgan banking empire, might book riskier, higher yielding loans. So rather than face the real cause of banking crises and lobby to outlaw fractional reserve banking, the Morgans, Rockefellers, etc.–who did not want to forego the financial benefits of lending demand deposits–lobbied instead for government to create a lender of last resort, a central bank, which we named the Federal Reserve Bank.



Fed Policy Causes Depressions and Then Prevents Recovery

Over time this entity, new to Americans, would expand its role in fruitless attempts to cure crises caused by ITSELF. The Fed caused and exacerbated crises by allowing, facilitating, and expanding the practice of fractional reserve banking. In the 1920’s the Fed began to expand the money supply to prevent prices from falling, justifying its new role as one of maintaining a stable price level. But printing money to prevent falling prices caused malinvestment in the structure of production and led to a depression by the end of the decade.

Rather than do nothing and allow the purging of bad investments and liquidation of malinvestment, which would re-establish a sustainable structure of production, as it had done at the beginning of the decade in the depression that no one remembers, the Fed intervened monetarily to pump up reserves while the Hoover administration intervened fiscally to prevent price deflation and maintain high spending levels. All this is well documented in Murray N. Rothbard’s America’s Great Depression.

Yet even an interventionist Fed could not prevent the massive bank failures of the 1930’s, due to many factors which included restrictive bank branching laws. But the primary cause of the bank failures was *again* the banks’ adherence to fractional reserve banking practices which resulted in their inability to honor all demand deposit redemption requests for specie and/or cash.

In the Roaring Twenties fractional reserve banking had expanded the money supply well beyond the ability of banks to stem all the runs. Again the banks and the politicians refused to dig deeper into the real cause of the problem. Rather than separate banking into deposit and loan functions–the former would require one hundred percent reserves and the latter would require strict asset-liability management to ensure that loans matured on the same schedule as time deposits, what is commonly known as funding loans out of savings–the government suspended specie redemption and eventually formed the FDIC to “ensure” bank deposits.

However, the FDIC’s “insurance” program was nothing more than an explicit promise that the Fed would print enough money to redeem all ensured deposits, thus insuring the continuation of fractional reserved banking, the very problem that was used as the excuse to establish the Fed; the very problem–bank instability–the Fed was sold to the public to solve. So, once again, a solution to cure a problem caused by the Fed itself resulted in even more power for the increasingly government run banking system.



The Monetary Genie Was Out of the Bottle

Once the politicians realized that the Fed could print money at will, the genie was out of the bottle. Money growth did expanded at a modest rate for a few decades, due mainly to the efforts of prudent men such as Fed Chairman William McChesney Martin (1951 to 1970) and fiscally conservative politicians such as President Dwight Eisenhower (1953 to 1961). However, it was inevitable that less prudent men, such as President Lyndon Johnson and all Fed chairman with the exception of Paul Volcker, would rise to power on their promises to fund all manner of government programs with what was now seen to be unlimited money.

This was the key revelation!

Money printed in unlimited quantities could cure all ills, or so it was claimed, and to its everlasting shame the economics profession provided sufficient “academic” cover to support these spurious assertions. Now everyone understood that the Fed could monetize–i.e., purchase government debt itself–any amount of government spending. The economics profession refused to consider the inevitable consequences of these irresponsible monetary policies. Instead it cherry picks historic price data to prove them to be non-inflationary and endorses changes to unemployment calculations to prove them to be fiscally sound, too. These whores, these house economists have their eyes glued to the rear view mirror of spurious government statistics as the race car of state hurtles toward an economic cliff of depression and perhaps even hyperinflation.



Money Production and Banking Subject to Commercial and Criminal Law

It matters not who is in charge of the Fed or what rules Congress may insist that it adopts. Once money printing, via fiat or fractional reserve credit creation, is seen to be both feasible, justified, and legal nothing and no one can stop it. The political pressure to fund government programs will be irresistible. Everyone knows that the Fed seemingly has the ability to solve their problem by monetizing the federal debt. Should it refuse to do so, we would see riots in the streets similar to what is happening in Europe as protesters target the European Central Bank.

The only solution is to destroy the monster that makes it all possible, the Fed. Without the ability to sell its debt to its own central bank, government would be forced to live within the means set by the will of the people through their elected representatives. The scales would eventually fall from the eyes of both politicians and public as its becomes clear that what government spends comes at the expense of the private economy. The public would no longer be fooled by government propaganda that its spending spurs the private economy, when it is clear that the only way government can spend is to tax the people or suffer the crowding out effect of private investment by government borrowing. Money production must be moved to private hands that are subject to normal commercial and criminal law, where money printing is nothing more than counterfeiting. Banks, too, must be subject to normal commercial and criminal law, which requires them to treat a demand deposit as a bailment for which they must keep one hundred percent reserves. Loan banking would be subject to the normal principles and well understood practices of sound asset-liability management, whereby loans are funded by real savings and the maturities of both loans and deposits must be coordinated in order for lending banks to honor their liquidity commitments. The path to the destruction of our nation through endless wars and welfare would end with the destruction of the Fed.



Delanda est in Susidium Foederatum Bank!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-21/federal-reserve-bank-must-be-destroyed

[palani]

Destroy a dream? Things that are imaginary simply don't exist once you awaken.

[hoarder]

No.....I disagree.

The banksters must be charged and arrested for fraud, incarcerated, their assets confiscated, their cronies investigated, exposed and incarcerated.
The banksters should be tried and convicted for massive fraud and sentenced to death. Their assets should be returned to those whom they defrauded and their heirs.

[palani]

No.....I disagree.

Do you see the similarity between your thoughts and those of Mugabe that he uses to eliminate white farmers from Zimbabwe?

[hoarder]

Do you see the similarity between your thoughts and those of Mugabe that he uses to eliminate white farmers from Zimbabwe?No. White farmers are not sitting back defrauding Blacks of their hard earned wages.

[palani]

No. White farmers are not sitting back defrauding Blacks of their hard earned wages.
The blacks must view this from the opposite perspective. They see white prosperity and interpret this comes at their expense. You hear the same view in the U.S. as in 'YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT' and 'YOU DON'T DESERVE THAT'.

[hoarder]

The blacks must view this from the opposite perspective. They see white prosperity and interpret this comes at their expense. You hear the same view in the U.S. as in 'YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT' and 'YOU DON'T DESERVE THAT'.You have shown your true colors.

[palani]

You have shown your true colors.

Really? That of an observer? Or that of an observer who is able to comment upon hypocrisy?

[7th trump]

Do you see the similarity between your thoughts and those of Mugabe that he uses to eliminate white farmers from Zimbabwe?

I believe you have a mental problem to suggest Hoarders discernment between right and wrong is at question?

[Glass]

I think palani is talking about choice.

What do you choose to do. Hold someone else responsible for your lot? So you blame someone else and then what? Sit and wait? For what? For magicman to come along and fix your problem

OR

would you stop supporting the institution? Stop doing business with it?

What about you 7th? What did you do? You clearly didn't sit on you ass, wailing and a flailing about the Income tax, IRS and SSN? No you got it sorted.

How do you think the Federal Reserve is going to be Destroyed? By Magicman smashing the 13 offices of the Federal Reserve to rubble? A crack team of anti teamsters, anti laundering team gonna bust in and audit them?

No, people are going to need to wake up, one at a time and take the necessary action - boycott. Then it will be destroyed. Millions could wake up at almost the same time. you never know.

[Horn]

Right, if they were charged and convicted at this point, it would only give viability to future generations of fiat empire.

The only thing that needs to be recorded well at this point are the real reasons and persons behind global civilization's collapse.

[palani]

I believe you have a mental problem to suggest Hoarders discernment between right and wrong is at question?

Why do you ask a question posed as a statement?

When did the topic turn to a discussion of right and wrong?

[7th trump]

Why do you ask a question posed as a statement?

When did the topic turn to a discussion of right and wrong?Why do you always answer a question with a question?........how do you like it?

It turned right vs wrong when you questioned hoarder with that silly Mugabe analogy.

[palani]

Why do you always answer a question with a question?........how do you like it?
Does it matter to you?


It turned right vs wrong when you questioned hoarder with that silly Mugabe analogy.
Silly or not the Mugabeans use the same reasoning to remove white farmers as is being presented to remove the federal reserve.

As Glass says ... if you don't like the institution don't patronize it. But if others want to enslave themselves ... then who am I to say they shouldn't?

[7th trump]

Does it matter to you?


Silly or not the Mugabeans use the same reasoning to remove white farmers as is being presented to remove the federal reserve.

As Glass says ... if you don't like the institution don't patronize it. But if others want to enslave themselves ... then who am I to say they shouldn't?

Mugabe is a criminal just like the federal reserve..........logic says to solve a problem....whats wrong with Hoarders solution?

Your point doesnt make any or much sense at all........kind of like most of your posts, if any, dont make any sense.

[palani]

Mugabe is a criminal just like the federal reserve
Mugabe hasn't done anything too injure me. Let those who are injured by him label him a criminal. What is your injury?

logic says to solve a problem
And your solution is to support the federal reserve by demanding more wages by withholding your wages from taxation? While my solution might be to not accept any wages at all.

whats wrong with Hoarders solution?

For posterity .. Hoarders' solution:
The banksters must be charged and arrested for fraud, incarcerated, their assets confiscated, their cronies investigated, exposed and incarcerated.

The problem with this solution:
Creating a vacuum simply provides room for more scoundrels to move in and occupy that vacuum. There is no solution presented by Hoarder. He simply provides more opportunity for the next generation of fraudsters.

What is wrong with Mugabe's solution is he wants the prosperity of the white farmers without the sweat equity or work ethic they have.

[7th trump]

Mugabe hasn't done anything too injure me. Let those who are injured by him label him a criminal. What is your injury?

It was you who brought Mugabe into this equation....not me. Why did you bring in Mugabe if he didnt injur you?
What kind of fucked up game are you trying to play with me?
I'm by means a fool stupid enough not to see your bait and switch bullshit.

And your solution is to support the federal reserve by demanding more wages by withholding your wages from taxation? While my solution might be to not accept any wages at all.
You just arent very intelligent are you Palani.
I never said to demand more wages....where on earth did you get that from?
I dont earn "wages"...........especially any defined "wages" that are taxable and reportable. I get paid but I do not earn "wages".
Your logic about frn's is completely wrong....you're infected by all the conspiracies and it has clouded up your thinking capability....the blind leading the blind into a ditch!



For posterity .. Hoarders' solution:
The banksters must be charged and arrested for fraud, incarcerated, their assets confiscated, their cronies investigated, exposed and incarcerated.

The problem with this solution:
Creating a vacuum simply provides room for more scoundrels to move in and occupy that vacuum. There is no solution presented by Hoarder. He simply provides more opportunity for the next generation of fraudsters.
Says you.......and what makes you think just because you propose to not demand more frn's will not produce a vacuum?
You propose nothing!

[palani]

Says you
I didn't say anything.

what makes you think just because you propose to not demand more frn's will not produce a vacuum?
By not using FRNs am I increasing or decreasing the demand for them?

You propose nothing!
Precisely!!!!

[7th trump]

I didn't say anything.

By not using FRNs am I increasing or decreasing the demand for them?

Precisely!!!!

Using notes or not doesnt eliminate the federal reserve system.....its chartered remember?
And not using any notes doesnt bring the criminals to being responsible for their actions......so Hoarders idea of bring these criminals to justice is more of a plan than your nonplan.

You just ramble round and round in circles palani....like a dog chasing his own tail only fooling yourself in beleiving you are intelligent.

[palani]

Using notes or not doesnt eliminate the federal reserve system.....its chartered remember?
Charters are not perpetual unless for charitable purposes.

not using any notes doesnt bring the criminals to being responsible for their actions......so Hoarders idea of bring these criminals to justice is more of a plan than your nonplan. YOU are the one passing these things off like they are money. How's about we hold YOU responsible?

[7th trump]

Charters are not perpetual unless for charitable purposes.
YOU are the one passing these things off like they are money. How's about we hold YOU responsible?
But not using the frn's wont dissolve the federal reserve charter.

Ohh they aren't money?
How so Palani?
I have never been arrested for passing counterfeit money for using FRN's. Hundreds of million of Americans haven't either...including you.

Responsible for what?

[7th trump]

So palani answer me this.
Where in the US Constitution does it say money must be minted of gold and silver?
I've looked and cant find this so called "requirement" in the US Constitution.

Could you so kindly show me....please I beg of you!

[palani]

But not using the frn's wont dissolve the federal reserve charter. If the federal reserve charter has expired why would you use their products?


Responsible for what? Responsible is the opposite of irresponsible.



Where in the US Constitution does it say money must be minted of gold and silver? Why would you presume that the US constitution is the source of all Law? He who owns his own words is said to be called author.


so the Right of doing any Action, is called AUTHORITY.
So that by Authority, is alwayes understood a Right of doing any act:
and Done By Authority, done by Commission, or Licence from him
whose right it is.

[7th trump]

If the federal reserve charter has expired why would you use their products?
Playing games again huh...you know damn well it was recently renewed.

Responsible is the opposite of irresponsible.
Yes I know...but you said I was responsible............for what?


Why would you presume that the US constitution is the source of all Law? He who owns his own words is said to be called author.
I never said or implied it was the source of all law.......you say FRN's aren't "lawful money" and that only specie is "lawful money"....well that authority can only come the document called the US Constitution.
So where in the US Constitution does it say lawful money is gold and or silver?

Ohhhh....I get it....you wont answer because you know I caught you in another one of your conspiracies and it embarrassing for you to get caught.
I don't blame you....most niggers claim they weren't doing anything but minding their business.............dishonest ones anyway.

[palani]

where in the US Constitution does it say lawful money is gold and or silver?

Do you believe all source of (author)ity is the scribblings of dead men?

[Horn]

Do you believe all source of (author)ity is the scribblings of dead men?

Alright palani, since u insist I'm giving you one last straw.

Make it yur longest.

[Glass]

I never said or implied it was the source of all law.......you say FRN's aren't "lawful money" and that only specie is "lawful money"....well that authority can only come the document called the US Constitution.
So where in the US Constitution does it say lawful money is gold and or silver?

Ohhhh....I get it....you wont answer because you know I caught you in another one of your conspiracies and it embarrassing for you to get caught.
I don't blame you....most niggers claim they weren't doing anything but minding their business.............dishonest ones anyway.

The US Constitution:

Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.



link (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/print_friendly.html?page=constitution_transcript_c ontent.html&title=The%20Constitution%20of%20the%20United%20Sta tes%3A%20A%20Transcription)

Not sure if that is the real one of the fake one (i.e. constitution for Vs constitution of).

[7th trump]

The US Constitution:


link (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/print_friendly.html?page=constitution_transcript_c ontent.html&title=The%20Constitution%20of%20the%20United%20Sta tes%3A%20A%20Transcription)

Not sure if that is the real one of the fake one (i.e. constitution for Vs constitution of).

Doesn't matter if its the "for" or "of", but I'll give you credit for trying though....Palani wouldn't...........he knows better. And yet palani continues down the conspiracy hole knowing full well what he yapps his jaws to about this "lawful money" is nothing but a damn lie.
That's all Palani ever does is spread lies, discord, hate and confusion.

"No state shall"....all that says is no state shall make anything but silver and gold coin in payment of debt.

Theres nothing in Section 10 remotely saying US coins must be gold or silver.....or gold or silver backed.....nothing!
The founding fathers knew most people back then bartered and traded. When the US Constitution was written and signed there wasn't even a US mint. All coins circulating at that time were foreign gold and silver coins.

Palani would rather lie to each and everyone of you to justify his love of lies and dishonesty.

[Glass]

Its very clear 7th and I'm afraid you are wrong on this one. It says that debts cannot be paid unless you use gold or silver. Any person within a state conducting commerce intra or inter state cannot extinguish debt without gold or silver.

As there is no gold or silver in circulation no debts can be paid. They can only discharged.....or set off.

[hoarder]

The problem with this solution:
Creating a vacuum simply provides room for more scoundrels to move in and occupy that vacuum. There is no solution presented by Hoarder. He simply provides more opportunity for the next generation of fraudsters.You have gotten things confused, Pal. Punishing criminals is called disincentive, not vacuum creation. Letting them go unpunished sends a clear message to them and other thieving fraudsters to continue doing the same any way they can.
After 100 years of this, most of the world's wealth and power is now in their hands. Merely destroying the Fed does not reverse this power as they have used it to position themselves as the gatekeepers of the minds of the masses.

[palani]

Punishing criminals is called disincentive, not vacuum creation.

They are YOUR representatives so then YOU must have some hand in disciplining them. I gave up all representation years ago and have no injury so have no standing on my own to suggest discipline.

But be aware of this: When the servant does something to please the master and the master is the one who gains thereby don't you think it is the master that should be disciplined rather than the servant?

[palani]

Its very clear 7th and I'm afraid you are wrong on this one. It says that debts cannot be paid unless you use gold or silver. Any person within a state conducting commerce intra or inter state cannot extinguish debt without gold or silver.

As there is no gold or silver in circulation no debts can be paid. They can only discharged.....or set off.

At the time the constitution was written the several States were sovereign. What made them sovereign was they paid their debts in gold or silver. At no time since creation has any federation of independent states ever had a claim to sovereignty. What this comes down to is the federation can pretend to pay their debts with little pieces of paper (similar to IOUs) called FEDERAL reserve notes. By doing so they are proclaiming their NON-SOVEREIGNTY.

The federation has states of its own. These states also pay their debts in FEDERAL reserve notes. None of these states has any sovereignty either and it all comes down to their subservient position in relation to the federal government. Since the unconstitutional action of Harry S Truman on or about June 20th, 1948 these federal states assumed the names of the several (previously) sovereign states. The several states that originally formed the union tacitly dissolved when they did not collectively or individually stand up to dispute Truman's unconstitutional action.

[palani]

Theres nothing in Section 10 remotely saying US coins must be gold or silver.....or gold or silver backed.....nothing!

There is nothing written in the U.S. constitution that even remotely suggests that to be sovereign you must be willing, able and responsible enough to PAY YOUR DEBTS. Yet even though this is not written the principle is a very basic one.

Could you show me where the U.S. constitution gives you a right to breath air? If you have been doing this all your life without authority then you have been committing an unconstitutional act believing as you obviously do that the U.S. constitution is the ultimate source of all authority.

[Glass]

I'm pretty sure that the US government by way of it's constitution, in a section 10 or an earlier one, is empowered to regulate weights and measures and does so for the value of a dollar being a set number of grains of precious metals.

The fact that it does not perform it's required, constitutionally stipulated duty and actively regulate the weights and measures of the dollar, in gold and silver because there is no point, there is none in circulation and in Fiat because it has been delegated to the Federal Reserve Corporation does not mean that it is not obliged to.

Can you tell me, has gold or silver ever been in circulation in the United States of America?

[palani]

has gold or silver ever been in circulation in the United States of America?
The U.S. Mint has made gold and silver coins in the past and does so at West Point even today. There is no reason why contracts cannot be written and fulfilled in either of these metals. However the general acceptance of a FRN is such that very few contracts these days actually are made in gold or silver. I have attempted to engage in contracts myself using gold and have been rebutted. But then you see these are merely offers on my part and the other leg of a contract is acceptance. Even in court one time I offered to pay in gold bullion and the first words out of the judicial actors mouth was the question "FOREIGN OR DOMESTIC". It was an Austrian coin being offered and the offer was turned down because (in my opinion) the court would have to take judicial notice of the value of gold and give a value in FRNs to the gold itself. This in itself would have been a decision worthy of notice so they found it easier to simply refuse the offer. Had I offered a $20 domestic gold coin they would have accepted it and asked for the rest of the payment even though the gold value of the $20 coin would have more than paid the fine they thought they deserved.

U.S. courts avoid the FRN/gold value fraud by sticking their heads up their nether regions ... much like 7th_strumpet.

[singular_me]

enslaving people is immoral... so how could self-enslavement be successful?

duality at work here

[palani]

how could self-enslavement be successful?
This is the method most people prefer to enslave themselves:

http://cdn.theawl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/wimpy.jpg

The topic has to do with trusts and the concepts of use and usufruct. If you investigate these concepts you end up painting a picture where trusts control the usufruct (actual legal ownership) and all you are left with is the use of a thing. Avoid swimming in the sea of commerce by letting trusts do the hard work (not legal advice .. not even really good advice ... simply an observation).

[7th trump]

Its very clear 7th and I'm afraid you are wrong on this one. It says that debts cannot be paid unless you use gold or silver. Any person within a state conducting commerce intra or inter state cannot extinguish debt without gold or silver.

As there is no gold or silver in circulation no debts can be paid. They can only discharged.....or set off.


Read Section 10 again Glass.
Section 10 does not pertain to people....its pertains to the individual union state governments.
Each state is a country of itself having each there own Constitution and an elected govenor (Corporations have presidents and vice presidents, the states dont) and them being a member of the Unites States (hence the name).
The central federal government was created to deal with debts to other countries. The Articles of confederacy failed in this area to pay off debts to other countries so a rework of the Articles was in order otherwise France was about to declare war with the Several States just after the Revolutionary War to get paid.....and we would have lost that war.
Like I said, most early Americans didnt have money...they bartered and traded to pay debt..........gold and silver coin means nothing when paying off debt. "Lawful Money" is just a joke.
Dont beleive everything Palani says because he doesnt take everything into account...and he cant comprehend for shit....unless it goes along with his conspiracy theories.

Just what do you think happened to the states requirement to only receive gold and silver coins for debt when the gold standard was suspended?
Do you think the federal goverment, who suspended the gold standard, is going to file charges against the states for accepting fiat?
I thought this forum had intelligent people?
I'm begining to have doubts to whether or not most on this forum are mentally in shape or have allowed themselves to be infected with rumor and lies of conspiracy.
Most demonstrate they are incapable of honest discernment.
I guess its easier/lazier to just blame the next conspiracy joke that comes along.
I think most have been dumb down so much they dont understand what questions they should be asking themselves for honest discernment...not a clue where to start.

[palani]

I thought this forum had intelligent people?

I learned early in life that when you handle cow manure or hog manure it is difficult to come out of the barn without smelling of the same.

You handle a FRN without taxation and think you are out of the conflict whereas the truth is a little stink always stays behind for every dollar you pass on to others. If there is fraud associated with the federal reserve system what law can you cite that says you must be part and parcel and hand in glove with the fraud? Barring no law then you are involving yourself with fraud voluntarily.

[7th trump]

I learned early in life that when you handle cow manure or hog manure it is difficult to come out of the barn without smelling of the same.

You handle a FRN without taxation and think you are out of the conflict whereas the truth is a little stink always stays behind for every dollar you pass on to others. If there is fraud associated with the federal reserve system what law can you cite that says you must be part and parcel and hand in glove with the fraud? Barring no law then you are involving yourself with fraud voluntarily.

And what "fraud" would that be Palani?

I ask again.....what is it I'm guilty of with having FRN's in my pocket?
Without you identifying what "fraud" everyone has committed your fruitless position towards FRN's has no merit!

[palani]

And what "fraud" would that be

The fraud is that you are acting in the capacity of another (the Federal Reserve) rather than making purchases in your own capacity and fail to disclose notice of this little detail. Of course since you lack any sort of capacity sui juris then acting for another is the only capacity available to you so you might say you are acting out of necessity. But in this event there is still fraud because you don't notify your trading partner(s) that the transaction is 'of necessity'.

[7th trump]

The fraud is that you are acting in the capacity of another (the Federal Reserve) rather than making purchases in your own capacity and fail to disclose notice of this little detail. Of course since you lack any sort of capacity sui juris then acting for another is the only capacity available to you so you might say you are acting out of necessity. But in this event there is still fraud because you don't notify your trading partner(s) that the transaction is 'of necessity'.

Are you suggesting by using frn's that person is posing as a federal agent?

[palani]

Are you suggesting by using frn's that person is posing as a federal agent?

Per 12 USC 411 ... posing as a federal RESERVE agent. And that is not FEDERAL!!!!

[Glass]

Read Section 10 again Glass.
Section 10 does not pertain to people....its pertains to the individual union state governments.
Each state is a country of itself having each there own Constitution and an elected govenor (Corporations have presidents and vice presidents, the states dont) and them being a member of the Unites States (hence the name).
The central federal government was created to deal with debts to other countries. The Articles of confederacy failed in this area to pay off debts to other countries so a rework of the Articles was in order otherwise France was about to declare war with the Several States just after the Revolutionary War to get paid.....and we would have lost that war.
Like I said, most early Americans didnt have money...they bartered and traded to pay debt..........gold and silver coin means nothing when paying off debt. "Lawful Money" is just a joke.
Dont beleive everything Palani says because he doesnt take everything into account...and he cant comprehend for shit....unless it goes along with his conspiracy theories.

Just what do you think happened to the states requirement to only receive gold and silver coins for debt when the gold standard was suspended?
Do you think the federal goverment, who suspended the gold standard, is going to file charges against the states for accepting fiat?
I thought this forum had intelligent people?
I'm begining to have doubts to whether or not most on this forum are mentally in shape or have allowed themselves to be infected with rumor and lies of conspiracy.
Most demonstrate they are incapable of honest discernment.
I guess its easier/lazier to just blame the next conspiracy joke that comes along.
I think most have been dumb down so much they dont understand what questions they should be asking themselves for honest discernment...not a clue where to start.

I'm sorry but this is a poor understanding. It says that the states shall allow nothing but gold or silver to pay debts. No just their debts but all commerce causing an obligation of debt can be extinguished.

It does not state which debts or by who or from who? It doesn't need to. It is all encompassing. The States shall pass no law saying you can pay debts with something other than gold. I don't think any of them have introduced such a law.

Barter is dealt with separately to the exchange of money. Under fiat it is also dealt separately in that the Government generally creates an "exchange rate" where by they determine how many FRN's a particular barter or type of barter is worth. Or they outlaw it completely like they did here.

If you can't discuss things with me with out being rude and calling me stupid we won't be having any further discussions 7thTrump. Other people will continue bantering with you but I won't. I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour.

[monty]

I'm sorry but this is a poor understanding. It says that the states shall allow nothing but gold or silver to pay debts. No just their debts but all commerce causing an obligation of debt can be extinguished.

It does not state which debts or by who or from who? It doesn't need to. It is all encompassing. The States shall pass no law saying you can pay debts with something other than gold. I don't think any of them have introduced such a law.

Barter is dealt with separately to the exchange of money. Under fiat it is also dealt separately in that the Government generally creates an "exchange rate" where by they determine how many FRN's a particular barter or type of barter is worth. Or they outlaw it completely like they did here.

If you can't discuss things with me with out being rude and calling me stupid we won't be having any further discussions 7thTrump. Other people will continue bantering with you but I won't. I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour.


Glass, you are correct

Quoted from a speach given by Dr. Edwin M. Vieira Jr.

http://mankindsmanycrossroads.com/Special-Articles/How-To-Restore-Constitutional-Money.htm

"

UNCONSTITUTIONAL

The bottom line of my presentation is very simple. The Federal Reserve System is unconstitutional. You start there and you know everything else that there is to know about it. The Constitution established commodity monies, specifically, silver and gold coinage as the money of the United States.




REVOLUTIONARY INFLATION AND DEPRESSION LED TO REJECTION OF PAPER MONEY IN 1787

If you go back historically, in 1787 the founding fathers were considering structure of government at the Constitutional level. Who were these people? Well, as a practical matter, they were eyewitnesses to one of the worst economic situations that the country had ever faced — a raging inflation, a massive depression that had followed the emission of bills of credit and other forms of paper currency by both the Continental Congress in which they served, and many of the state legislatures in which they served, during the War of Independence. So these were not people who were unacquainted with the economic problems of money. They were also not people who could foist off those problems, at least in terms of cause and effect, on somebody else. They had been responsible for putting these paper monies into circulation. What did they do? Well, they drafted the monetary powers of the Constitution to prevent repetition of that calamity by outlawing what James Madison in the Federalist papers denounced as "the fallacious medium and improper and wicked project of paper money".



U.S. CONSTITUTION ESTABLISHES A BIMETALLIC STANDARD

Very, very simple is the language of the Constitution, but it is quite profound in its economic and political consequences. In Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1, the Constitution adopts silver and gold coin exclusively as the money of the United States.

Now the standard in this system is the dollar, and, if you know nothing else about the monetary system of the United States constitutionally, learn what a dollar is.

A dollar is a silver coin containing 371-1/4 grains of silver. That word is mentioned twice in the Constitution: in Article I, Section 9 and in the Seventh Amendment, guaranteeing the right to jury trial. In the system that the founding fathers devised, the legal value of all the silver coinage must be proportional to the weight of silver they contain, and the legal value of all the gold coinage must be proportional to the weight of gold that the coins contain in relationship to the exchange value between silver and gold at the prevailing free market exchange rate.



All silver and gold coins may be legal tender for the values of silver and gold they actually contain, and Congress has the authority to, as the Constitution says, regulate the value according to these principles.



FIAT MONEY PROHIBITED

In Article I, Section 8, Clause 2 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1, the Constitution prohibits explicitly or implicitly the emission of any form of what was called in those days "bills of credit". Today we would call that paper money.Properly construed these provisions preclude any government at any level from granting special legal privileges to the notes, deposits, or currencies of private banks as well, or allowing private banks to use governmental debt as so-called reserves for the emission of bank notes.



GOLD AND SILVER COIN ONLY AS LEGAL TENDER

Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 also disables the states from imposing on unwilling creditors anything but gold and silver coin as a tender in payment of debts — which, of course, reflects the inherent disability of Congress to declare anything other than gold and silver coin a legal tender.




And Article I, Section 8, Clauses 1, 2, and 5; Section 10, Clause 1; and the Fifth, Ninth, Tenth, and Fourteenth Amendments, if properly construed, would deny Congress and the states any power to seize people's gold or silver, except through taxation, or to prevent specific performance of private contracts payable in silver, gold, or any monetary medium — which, of course, was what happened in the 1930s when Roosevelt came in."

[7th trump]

Glass, you are correct

Quoted from a speach given by Dr. Edwin M. Vieira Jr.

http://mankindsmanycrossroads.com/Special-Articles/How-To-Restore-Constitutional-Money.htm

"

UNCONSTITUTIONAL

The bottom line of my presentation is very simple. The Federal Reserve System is unconstitutional. You start there and you know everything else that there is to know about it. The Constitution established commodity monies, specifically, silver and gold coinage as the money of the United States.




REVOLUTIONARY INFLATION AND DEPRESSION LED TO REJECTION OF PAPER MONEY IN 1787

If you go back historically, in 1787 the founding fathers were considering structure of government at the Constitutional level. Who were these people? Well, as a practical matter, they were eyewitnesses to one of the worst economic situations that the country had ever faced — a raging inflation, a massive depression that had followed the emission of bills of credit and other forms of paper currency by both the Continental Congress in which they served, and many of the state legislatures in which they served, during the War of Independence. So these were not people who were unacquainted with the economic problems of money. They were also not people who could foist off those problems, at least in terms of cause and effect, on somebody else. They had been responsible for putting these paper monies into circulation. What did they do? Well, they drafted the monetary powers of the Constitution to prevent repetition of that calamity by outlawing what James Madison in the Federalist papers denounced as "the fallacious medium and improper and wicked project of paper money".



U.S. CONSTITUTION ESTABLISHES A BIMETALLIC STANDARD

Very, very simple is the language of the Constitution, but it is quite profound in its economic and political consequences. In Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1, the Constitution adopts silver and gold coin exclusively as the money of the United States.

Now the standard in this system is the dollar, and, if you know nothing else about the monetary system of the United States constitutionally, learn what a dollar is.

A dollar is a silver coin containing 371-1/4 grains of silver. That word is mentioned twice in the Constitution: in Article I, Section 9 and in the Seventh Amendment, guaranteeing the right to jury trial. In the system that the founding fathers devised, the legal value of all the silver coinage must be proportional to the weight of silver they contain, and the legal value of all the gold coinage must be proportional to the weight of gold that the coins contain in relationship to the exchange value between silver and gold at the prevailing free market exchange rate.



All silver and gold coins may be legal tender for the values of silver and gold they actually contain, and Congress has the authority to, as the Constitution says, regulate the value according to these principles.



FIAT MONEY PROHIBITED

In Article I, Section 8, Clause 2 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1, the Constitution prohibits explicitly or implicitly the emission of any form of what was called in those days "bills of credit". Today we would call that paper money.Properly construed these provisions preclude any government at any level from granting special legal privileges to the notes, deposits, or currencies of private banks as well, or allowing private banks to use governmental debt as so-called reserves for the emission of bank notes.



GOLD AND SILVER COIN ONLY AS LEGAL TENDER

Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 also disables the states from imposing on unwilling creditors anything but gold and silver coin as a tender in payment of debts — which, of course, reflects the inherent disability of Congress to declare anything other than gold and silver coin a legal tender.




And Article I, Section 8, Clauses 1, 2, and 5; Section 10, Clause 1; and the Fifth, Ninth, Tenth, and Fourteenth Amendments, if properly construed, would deny Congress and the states any power to seize people's gold or silver, except through taxation, or to prevent specific performance of private contracts payable in silver, gold, or any monetary medium — which, of course, was what happened in the 1930s when Roosevelt came in."



About Edward.
Hes just a lawyer and is not really recognized as any authority.
He doesnt hold any office.

[7th trump]

I'm sorry but this is a poor understanding. It says that the states shall allow nothing but gold or silver to pay debts. No just their debts but all commerce causing an obligation of debt can be extinguished.

It does not state which debts or by who or from who? It doesn't need to. It is all encompassing. The States shall pass no law saying you can pay debts with something other than gold. I don't think any of them have introduced such a law.

Barter is dealt with separately to the exchange of money. Under fiat it is also dealt separately in that the Government generally creates an "exchange rate" where by they determine how many FRN's a particular barter or type of barter is worth. Or they outlaw it completely like they did here.

If you can't discuss things with me with out being rude and calling me stupid we won't be having any further discussions 7thTrump. Other people will continue bantering with you but I won't. I won't tolerate that kind of behaviour.

So its illegal for me to take two calves in exchange for my labor over gold and silver coinage....and anyone else for that matter.
Its illegal for me two trade/sell my truck for 8 heads of cattle?
Is that what you are saying?
Because thats just what you explained.

[singular_me]

... to be proven correct, one must be endorsed by an authority ???

edward griffin surely isnt - is he wrong therefore?


About Edward.
Hes just a lawyer and is not really recognized as any authority.
He doesnt hold any office.

[7th trump]

... to be proven correct, one must be endorsed by an authority ???

Hes just an outspoken critic....kind of like msm Bill Maher and the other msm talking heads.
Hes not regarded as any authority.

[palani]

Is that what you are saying?
Because thats just what you explained.

Your reading comprehension really sucks. This is what Glass posted concerning barter:


Barter is dealt with separately to the exchange of money.

Privately you may contract as you like. Publicly you are less free.

[palani]

Hes not regarded as any authority.
If he has no authority then his words are owned by others. But you just stated he has no office so his words are of no account. Logically you mean that one with no office has no authority when the truth is that one with no office owns his own words and is the authority behind them.

An office holder represents others and does not own his own words. He is an actor instead.

[monty]

About Edward. Hes just a lawyer and is not really recognized as any authority. He doesnt hold any office.

So that means you are the authority?

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[singular_me]

seems like 7th waits for a prez outlawing the fed reserve ;D

[7th trump]

So that means you are the authority?

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

Nope not saying that....just saying the guy acts like Palani.
They both beleive in something that cannot be proven.
Edward says the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional.......however for that theory to apply there must be Constitutional provisions prohibiting the US government from out-sourcing the duties of the Treasury.........I dont see that in the Constitution.
I would imagine the founding fathers would have never thought the US government would ever out-source its Treasury.....but they didnt write in provisions that a future administration couldnt.
Looks like our enemies understand the US Constitution better than the People.......they fell asleep!
I dont like the idea of foreign interest controlling the economy of this government myself.......but unfortunately its totally Constitutional.

One must use court rulings to have their opinions hold merit.....Edward doesnt from what I can see.....just a talking head with theories.

[7th trump]

seems like 7th waits for a prez outlawing the fed reserve ;D

No....I'm waiting for people like you to stop playing around with bullshit theories and understand whats really going on to act themselves.
All you do is invite curiousity where it doesnt need to be.....people like to be entertained....please stop entertaining the sheep with your halfwit theories and get to bussiness instructing them on how to be a man and woman.
You're part of the problem....not part of the solution.

[palani]

Edward says the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional

I wouldn't call the Federal Reserve Act unconstitutional. Rather EXTRA-constitutional is a phrase that comes to mind.

After all, with the 14th amendment government is dealing with the rights of freed slaves. In the process of investigating methods that work to control freed slaves there are no prohibitions in the U.S. constitution. There are no provisions at all for dealing with the rights of manumitted slaves.

[singular_me]

well as long as you claim that only authority has the final word, you will remain part of the problem



You're part of the problem....not part of the solution.

[monty]

About Edward.
Hes just a lawyer and is not really recognized as any authority.
He doesnt hold any office.


he may be "just a lawyer" but so are the Supreme Court Justices who were appoint by presidents who were just peanut farmers, movie actors and lawyers. They all put their pants on one leg at a time like you and I.

I own a copy of Cra$hmaker that he co-authored under a Nom de Plume. I believe they wrote that about 2000. Reading it today you if you didn't know it was fiction you would believe you were reading a history book.

Monty



http://www.thedailybell.com/default/includes/themes/tdb/images/logo.png


Edwin Vieira, Jr.

http://www.thedailybell.com/images/library/Edwin%20Vieira.jpgPublished by The Daily Bell - April 11 2011
Dr. Edwin Vieira is amply qualified to act on his constitutional concerns. Vieira holds four degrees from Harvard: A.B. (Harvard College), A.M. and Ph.D. (Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences) and J.D. (Harvard Law School). He has presented several cases of import before the Supreme Court and written numerous monographs and articles in scholarly journals.


Dr. Edwin Vieira has presented several cases of import before the Supreme Court and written numerous monographs and articles in scholarly journals. Vieira's latest scholarly works are By Tyranny Out of Necessity: The Bastardy of "Martial Law" (2014), Execute the Laws to Restore the Republic (2013), Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the United States Constitution(2d rev. ed. 2002), a comprehensive study of American monetary law and history viewed from a constitutional perspective, and How to Dethrone the Imperial Judiciary (2004).


Dr. Vieira is now working on an extensive project concerned with the constitutional "Militia of the Several States" and "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms." This stems from one of Vieira's main concerns, which is the ever-accelerating development of a first-class para-militarized police-state apparatus centered around the United States Department of Homeland Security, with its tentacles reaching down into every police force throughout the states and localities.


Fundamentally, Dr. Vieira believes this apparatus is not, and never was, designed to deal with international "terrorism." If that were its goal, he suggests, its first task would be absolutely to secure the southern border of the United States, which it has never seriously attempted to do. Rather, it is being set up to deal with what the political-cum-financial establishment anticipates will be massive social and political unrest bordering on chaos throughout America.


If on whatever pretext this police-state apparatus does succeed in clamping down on America, the likelihood of effecting basic reforms in money, banking, or anything else favorable to the American people will be reduced to something approaching nil, absent a veritable political uprising in this country.
Dr. Vieira has devoted the remainder of his professional life to exposing the increasing dangers that America faces from the destruction of constitutional rights and the growth of the US police state.
Background: Dr. Edwin Vieira is amply qualified to act on his constitutional concerns. Vieira holds four degrees from Harvard: A.B. (Harvard College), A.M. and Ph.D. (Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences) and J.D. (Harvard Law School). For over 36 years Dr. Vieira has been a practicing attorney, specializing in cases that raise issues of constitutional law.


Dr. Vieira is also a fiction writer. With well known libertarian trader Victor Sperandeo, Dr. Vieira is also the co-author (under a nom de plume) of the political novel CRA$HMAKER: A Federal Affaire (2000), a not-so-fictional story of an engineered "crash" of the Federal Reserve System, and the political revolution it causes.


Published by The Daily Bell - www.thedailybell.com (http://www.thedailybell.com/) - All Rights Reserved.