10 Sioux Indian Chief Quotes That Shatter Our Idea of ‘Modern’ Culture

[Serpo]

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Waking Times
Luther Standing Bear was an Oglala Lakota (Sioux) Chief who, among a few rare others such as Charles Eastman, Black Elk and Gertrude Bonnin occupied the rift between the way of life of the Indigenous people of the Great Plains before, and during, the arrival and subsequent spread of the European pioneers. Raised in the traditions of his people until the age of eleven, he was then educated at the Carlisle Indian Industrial Boarding School of Pennsylvania, where he learned the english language and way of life. (Though a National Historical Landmark, Carlisle remains a place of controversy in Native circles.)
Like his above mentioned contemporaries, however, his native roots were deep, leaving him in the unique position of being a conduit between cultures. Though his movement through the white man’s world was not without “success” — he had numerous movie roles in Hollywood — his enduring legacy was the protection of the way of life of his people. By the time of his death he had published 4 Books (http://www.amazon.com/s/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=luther%20standing%20bear&linkCode=ur2&tag=wisdompillsgm-20&url=search-alias%3Daps&linkId=Y5ZSBORMU3IK2J3U)https://ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=wisdompillsgm-20&l=ur2&o=1 and had become a leader at the forefront of the progressive movement aimed at preserving Native American heritage and sovereignty, coming to be known as a strong voice in the education of the white man as to the Native American way of life. Here, then, are 10 quotes from the great Sioux Indian Chief known as Standing Bear that will be sure to disturb much of what you think you know about “modern” culture.


1. Praise, flattery, exaggerated manners and fine, high-sounding words were no part of Lakota politeness. Excessive manners were put down as insincere, and the constant talker was considered rude and thoughtless. Conversation was never begun at once, or in a hurried manner.
2. Children were taught that true politeness was to be defined in actions rather than in words. They were never allowed to pass between the fire and the older person or a visitor, to speak while others were speaking, or to make fun of a crippled or disfigured person. If a child thoughtlessly tried to do so, a parent, in a quiet voice, immediately set him right.
3. Silence was meaningful with the Lakota, and his granting a space of silence before talking was done in the practice of true politeness and regardful of the rule that ‘thought comes before speech.’…and in the midst of sorrow, sickness, death or misfortune of any kind, and in the presence of the notable and great, silence was the mark of respect… strict observance of this tenet of good behavior was the reason, no doubt, for his being given the false characterization by the white man of being a stoic. He has been judged to be dumb, stupid, indifferent, and unfeeling.
4. We did not think of the great open plains, the beautiful rolling hills, the winding streams with tangled growth, as ‘wild’. Only to the white man was nature a ‘wilderness’ and only to him was it ‘infested’ with ‘wild’ animals and ‘savage’ people. To us it was tame. Earth was bountiful and we were surrounded with the blessings of the Great Mystery.
5. Kinship with all creatures of the earth, sky and water was a real and active principle. In the animal and bird world there existed a brotherly feeling that kept the Lakota safe among them. And so close did some of the Lakotas come to their feathered and furred friends that in true brotherhood they spoke a common tongue.

6. This concept of life and its relations was humanizing and gave to the Lakota an abiding love. It filled his being with the joy and mystery of living; it gave him reverence for all life; it made a place for all things in the scheme of existence with equal importance to all.
7. It was good for the skin to touch the earth, and the old people liked to remove their moccasins and walk with bare feet on the sacred earth… the old Indian still sits upon the earth instead of propping himself up and away from its life giving forces. For him, to sit or lie upon the ground is to be able to think more deeply and to feel more keenly. He can see more clearly into the mysteries of life and come closer in kinship to other lives about him.
8. Everything was possessed of personality, only differing from us in form. Knowledge was inherent in all things. The world was a library and its books were the stones, leaves, grass, brooks, and the birds and animals that shared, alike with us, the storms and blessings of earth. We learned to do what only the student of nature learns, and that was to feel beauty. We never railed at the storms, the furious winds, and the biting frosts and snows. To do so intensified human futility, so whatever came we adjusted ourselves, by more effort and energy if necessary, but without complaint.
9. …the old Lakota was wise. He knew that a man’s heart, away from nature, becomes hard; he knew that lack of respect for growing, living things soon led to lack of respect for humans, too. So he kept his children close to nature’s softening influence.
10. Civilization has been thrust upon me… and it has not added one whit to my love for truth, honesty, and generosity.

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/08/30/10-sioux-indian-chief-quotes-that-shatter-our-idea-of-modern-culture/

[Serpo]

edited version............



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Waking Times
Luther Standing Bear was an Oglala Lakota (Sioux) Chief who, among a few rare others such as Charles Eastman, Black Elk and Gertrude Bonnin occupied the rift between the way of life of the Indigenous people of the Great Plains before, and during, the arrival and subsequent spread of the European pioneers. Raised in the traditions of his people until the age of eleven, he was then educated at the Carlisle Indian Industrial Boarding School of Pennsylvania, where he learned the english language and way of life. (Though a National Historical Landmark, Carlisle remains a place of controversy in Native circles.)


Like his above mentioned contemporaries, however, his native roots were deep, leaving him in the unique position of being a conduit between cultures. Though his movement through the white man’s world was not without “success” — he had numerous movie roles in Hollywood — his enduring legacy was the protection of the way of life of his people. By the time of his death he had published 4 Books (http://www.amazon.com/s/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=luther%20standing%20bear&linkCode=ur2&tag=wisdompillsgm-20&url=search-alias%3Daps&linkId=Y5ZSBORMU3IK2J3U)https://ir-na.amazon-adsystem.com/e/ir?t=wisdompillsgm-20&l=ur2&o=1 and had become a leader at the forefront of the progressive movement aimed at preserving Native American heritage and sovereignty, coming to be known as a strong voice in the education of the white man as to the Native American way of life.


Here, then, are 10 quotes from the great Sioux Indian Chief known as Standing Bear that will be sure to disturb much of what you think you know about “modern” culture.


1. Praise, flattery, exaggerated manners and fine, high-sounding words were no part of Lakota politeness. Excessive manners were put down as insincere, and the constant talker was considered rude and thoughtless. Conversation was never begun at once, or in a hurried manner.


2. Children were taught that true politeness was to be defined in actions rather than in words. They were never allowed to pass between the fire and the older person or a visitor, to speak while others were speaking, or to make fun of a crippled or disfigured person. If a child thoughtlessly tried to do so, a parent, in a quiet voice, immediately set him right.


3. Silence was meaningful with the Lakota, and his granting a space of silence before talking was done in the practice of true politeness and regardful of the rule that ‘thought comes before speech.’…and in the midst of sorrow, sickness, death or misfortune of any kind, and in the presence of the notable and great, silence was the mark of respect… strict observance of this tenet of good behavior was the reason, no doubt, for his being given the false characterization by the white man of being a stoic. He has been judged to be dumb, stupid, indifferent, and unfeeling.


4. We did not think of the great open plains, the beautiful rolling hills, the winding streams with tangled growth, as ‘wild’. Only to the white man was nature a ‘wilderness’ and only to him was it ‘infested’ with ‘wild’ animals and ‘savage’ people. To us it was tame. Earth was bountiful and we were surrounded with the blessings of the Great Mystery.


5. Kinship with all creatures of the earth, sky and water was a real and active principle. In the animal and bird world there existed a brotherly feeling that kept the Lakota safe among them. And so close did some of the Lakotas come to their feathered and furred friends that in true brotherhood they spoke a common tongue.

6. This concept of life and its relations was humanizing and gave to the Lakota an abiding love. It filled his being with the joy and mystery of living; it gave him reverence for all life; it made a place for all things in the scheme of existence with equal importance to all.


7. It was good for the skin to touch the earth, and the old people liked to remove their moccasins and walk with bare feet on the sacred earth… the old Indian still sits upon the earth instead of propping himself up and away from its life giving forces. For him, to sit or lie upon the ground is to be able to think more deeply and to feel more keenly. He can see more clearly into the mysteries of life and come closer in kinship to other lives about him.


8. Everything was possessed of personality, only differing from us in form. Knowledge was inherent in all things. The world was a library and its books were the stones, leaves, grass, brooks, and the birds and animals that shared, alike with us, the storms and blessings of earth. We learned to do what only the student of nature learns, and that was to feel beauty. We never railed at the storms, the furious winds, and the biting frosts and snows. To do so intensified human futility, so whatever came we adjusted ourselves, by more effort and energy if necessary, but without complaint.


9. …the old Lakota was wise. He knew that a man’s heart, away from nature, becomes hard; he knew that lack of respect for growing, living things soon led to lack of respect for humans, too. So he kept his children close to nature’s softening influence.


10. Civilization has been thrust upon me… and it has not added one whit to my love for truth, honesty, and generosity.

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/08/3...odern-culture/ (http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/08/30/10-sioux-indian-chief-quotes-that-shatter-our-idea-of-modern-culture/)

[monty]

http://youtu.be/-Kz42oFVBNg

[Tumbleweed]

I don't think the indians I'm around have the wisdom that their elders had. I do like the video below though.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBMGfcQjaz8

[General of Darkness]

If I had a time machine I would love to take a jew back in time and put him among the indians to see what would happen?

[Shami-Amourae]

White Europeans have been in the Americas since about 30,000 BC. Amerindians have been here since about 15,000 BC. They came from Siberia.

They aren't "Native". Whites are. They enriched the population with diversity.

Also there were only about 1-2 million Amerindians in all of the America when White Europeans came in 1492.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIcUh_HADo8



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNTXCMYjwEk

History was changed to fit the narrative that Evil White men came here and butchered/stole the land of the might "Native American", when in fact the opposite happened. We were here first, they came, and butchered us.

[Dogman]

Lmao!

Got to love the smell of history being twisted to fit ones views and agenda's!

Timeless !

Sent from my Nexus 7

[Shami-Amourae]

Laugh all you want. You have to spend more than 5 minutes of research on anything to find the truth on anything. Most of our history has been changed to fit the people who rule's agenda.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24256729
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbus.shtml
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/features/dna.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/new-evidence-suggests-stone-age-hunters-from-europe-discovered-america-7447152.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-science-native-americans-origins-idUSBREA1B1TS20140212

Archaeologists have been finding mummies of White people with red hair all over the Americas that were thousands of years old. It's covered up, and the evidence is constantly destroyed.

http://beforeitsnews.com/blogging-citizen-journalism/2014/05/7000-year-old-caucasian-mummies-discovered-in-chile-2453632.html

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/77415/images/1375026_10153256009415467_1973172974_n.jpg

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/77415/images/men.jpg


Here's a local news report from Nevada right after one of these Caucasian mummies was found. Notice how the "Native Americans" try to cover it up and destroy the evidence. They claim that it's "sacred" and "disturbing the dead". This news report admits that it was Caucasian and they were there before the "Native Americans".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L-Rqgqxj3M

The "Native Americans" work overtime to cover this up since they have Whitey by the balls with the White Guilt that they genocided their people.

Dogman, I know you don't like Nationalism, but seriously, there's a giant coverup going on here and there's so much evidence online for it it's insane. Just research it yourself.

[Shami-Amourae]

If I had a time machine I would love to take a jew back in time and put him among the indians to see what would happen?


Both would go extinct.

[monty]

I have no idea who might be correct. I have never attempted to research this subject.

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2014/02/13/genetic-study-kills-off-solutrean-hypothesis/


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v506/n7487/full/nature13025.html#figures

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-science-native-americans-origins-idUSBREA1B1TS20140212

[Shami-Amourae]

I have no idea who might be correct. I have never attempted to research this subject.

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2014/02/13/genetic-study-kills-off-solutrean-hypothesis/


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v506/n7487/full/nature13025.html#figures

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-science-native-americans-origins-idUSBREA1B1TS20140212


It's like that with most of the Scientific field. There's politically correct science that gets funded, and there's politically incorrect science that doesn't get funded.

[Dogman]

I have no idea who might be correct. I have never attempted to research this subject.

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2014/02/13/genetic-study-kills-off-solutrean-hypothesis/


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v506/n7487/full/nature13025.html#figures

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/12/us-science-native-americans-origins-idUSBREA1B1TS20140212 It has fairly been proven that the Clovis people were from Europe stock that archeology has found and recorded.

Seems like there were several waves of peoples both from the east and the west that set foot on north American soil.

All spread over multiple of thousands of years.

Before and after the ice age, which btw there was more than one ice episode that turned america into a deep freeze there were multiple American ice ages, best guess at a roughly 10,000 year cycle.

Did they kill themselves off is a major question!

But there is also a meteor/comet strike that struck in north America that is not well documented that may have wiped the Clovis and earlier settlers out and then the western migration took place and then maybe thousands of years latter the more modern European came and settled and our recorded Indian wars are from.

China may have had a settlement in south Americas for example, back in their major seafaring days.

Clovis are by artifact matched with people from Europe, but the best guess time line that that was way before the Nordic people set foot here.

But also there is I think one example of a skeliton found in the northwest that may or was not Asian in features. Tho also in china in the Gobi desert they have found mummy's that were from European stock that date way back before America was discovered.

It does seem that what ever color they were Europeans were the first, but with a very good chance they were long gone before others arrived.

This has been a pet study subject for me since I was a kid..

The debate is still raging...

But to clam exclusive knowledge that can not be supported by archaeological proof in any way is just wrong, the jury is still out.

[monty]

It's like that with most of the Scientific field. There's politically correct science that gets funded, and there's politically incorrect science that doesn't get funded.


My question is how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? I understand many studies may be slanted per the money. Some unfunded ones may be slanted due to pride, emotion, etc. How does one determine the often hidden truth?

Another question, is there any funded science that is honest and not politically correct? How would one prove it?

It appears if the research waters are so muddied by money and hidden agenda that at best what we can detrmine may only be theory with exception of some actual physical evidence like the read haired mummies.

[monty]

It has fairly been proven that the Clovis people were from Europe stock.

Seems like there were several waves of peoples both from the east and the west that set foot on north American soil.

Did they kill themselves off is a major question!

But there is also a meteor/comet strike that struck in north America is not well documented that may have wiped the Clovis and earlier settlers out and then the eastern migration took place which the more modern European came and settled and our recorded Indian wars are from.

Clovis are by artifact matched with people from Europe, but the best guess time line that that was way before the Nordic people set foot here.

But also there is I think one example of a skeliton found in the northwest that may or was not Asian in features. Tho also in china in the Gobi desert they have found mummy's that were from European stock that date way back before America was discovered.

It does seem that what ever color they were Europeans were the first, but with a very good chance they were long gone before others arrived.

This has been a pet study subject for me since I was a kid..

The debate is still raging...

But to clam exclusive knowledge that can not be supported by archaeological proof in any way is just wrong, the jury is still out.


Is there a possibility these early residents of North America may have been killed by the ice age that decended on the continent and ended 10,000 yeas ago?

[General of Darkness]

The first "native amerikwans" were white, the red man killed him. ;)

[Dogman]

Is there a possibility these early residents of North America may have been killed by the ice age that descended on the continent and ended 10,000 yeas ago? Good question, not sure what the consistence is. If it was ice, in general it does move slowly. But there is evidence that a meteor/comet strike did clean the slate in north america suddenly.

One thing is that there is dam little fossil evidence ether way.

There is a very good chance if it was on hoof or four feet it was eaten, mammoths come to mind plus others.

Horses originally evolved or are from north america but got wiped out is another example.

[Dogman]

White power types do want to believe in their pet theory's even if there is next to none or any evidence to prove their point.

While Europeans were still mucking about, the peoples of India I think are the first advanced civilization closely followed by the Chinese. Europeans only really advanced when trade was established in many ways with china and india.

Europeans got most of their advances science and alphabet and numbering systems from the Arabs. Which they (Arabs) imported from India and china way back when they were trading with them in the dawns of time.


Which the crusaders brought back from Arabia.

And while all of that was going on the holy wars before and after was killing millions.

Nice history to be proud of.

[Shami-Amourae]

Which the crusaders brought back from Arabia.

And while all of that was going on the holy wars before and after was killing millions.

Nice history to be proud of.

You're quoting the Jewish version of history again.

Actual history is different.

http://s15.postimg.org/4ixz9m809/1440383255039_2.jpg

[General of Darkness]

You're quoting the Jewish version of history again.

Actual history is different.

http://s15.postimg.org/4ixz9m809/1440383255039_2.jpg

No shit. The Crusades lasted 40 years from start to finish. Dogman up too his old tricks again.

[Dogman]

Sure it is!

Believe what you want Perv.

According to you and your club, all recorded history is controlled and written by the Jews!

I just do not buy into that theory.

Enjoy your fantastics.

[Dogman]

No shit. The Crusades lasted 40 years from start to finish. Dogman up too his old tricks again.


Believe what you want,

it was more like over almost 200 years...

Nice try..

[General of Darkness]

Sure it is!

Believe what you want Perv.

According to you and your club, all recorded history is controlled and written by the Jews!

I just do not buy into that theory.

Enjoy your fantastics.

Shit my fantasy includes gun boats in the Mediterranean, a white population in Europe and the states at 100%, 0% jew population no naggers etc.

[Dogman]

Shit my fantasy includes gun boats in the Mediterranean, a white population in Europe and the states at 100%, 0% jew population no naggers etc. General truly good luck in your endeavors.

But I highly suspect you will just be spinning your wheels and if you and yours try history will repeat itself and the result will probably not be friendly to you.

Tho may you be swamped by hot and good looking women that want to make you their own, and are agreeable to share you with others..

Seems your new home is in prime territory!

And also may they not all be gold diggers !

;)

[Shami-Amourae]

http://oi59.tinypic.com/jays74.jpg

[Dogman]

http://s7.postimg.org/owlihfzw9/1440286134198.jpg

Nice shot of whats between the ears and behind the eyes..

;)

[midnight rambler]

http://s7.postimg.org/owlihfzw9/1440286134198.jpg

Your post is without content.

[Dogman]

That is ok, I commented on that !

Nice insight !

[Dogman]

Nice try with the pic shami but very crude and without any supporting evidence nor proof except a desire that it be so!

But it is sorta the kind of thing that people do and get when their only education is from comic books.

Try harder next time!

You guys are going to just plumb wear out that cut and pasted mime someday!

Hoot !

Sorta pathetic actually!

It has been fascinating for me over my life trying to understand how this mud ball we call home came about and then the life that grew on the same mud ball.

Even more fascinating is the evidence of the first cultures of man that came into being.

Sorta a who are we?

Where do we come from?

Mystery that sadly only digging up what remains there are and then trying to figgure out everything else from peoples/civilizations that have left evidence of their walking this earth, but sadly no written words have survived to this day.

Guess that is why they call it prehistory, because real history only came about when people learned to write and tried to put their thoughts onto what they had handy.

At first it was mud slates....

Now we use electrons......

Want to be humbled, study history and understand the greed, grasping for power that created so much destruction in our past..

Anyway , I am out of here, mainly because of the die hards that want to cling to what they want to believe and try their hardest to re-write recorded history..

Because nothing I can say can change a dam thing, so why try any harder than I have just done !

Good luck in your endeavors, truly!

The majority of the worlds people that have more than one brain cell molecule to rub together can see what is called common truth or what is as close as it can be.

Peace !

[Tumbleweed]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by General of Darkness http://gold-silver.us/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?p=789872#post789872)
If I had a time machine I would love to take a jew back in time and put him among the indians to see what would happen?



The Jews were among the indians of this country in the early days and they killed and used the shit out of them. Below is an article written by Jew of what they did to the indians. There is more at this link.
http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_d...p?q=1369148093 (http://www.fourwinds10.net/siterun_data/government/native_american/news.php?q=1369148093)



Being Jewish on my Grandfather’s side, having lived in Israel, and as a former radio talk show host, I many times focused on issues related to Israel including interviewing Holocaust survivors.These were Jews who were victims of Nazi Racism. Even though my Jewish roots were not "official" due to the fact I have no immediate "matrilineal" connection to my heritage, I am acutely aware of the Spiritual calling and role of Jewish people in their relationship with God and mankind. Because of this part of my life, I was aware of injustice and racism on a level that allowed me to understand more fully the genocidal history of American Indians and sadly enough, the role of Jewish people in this tragic history.
From my college days, I have at one time or another been directly involved with American Indians through my involvement with and working for various Indian organizations, as well as teaching investigative journalism at Haskell Indian Nations University, living on a reservation in South Dakota, as well as interviewing dozen’s of prominent Indians from various tribes and backgrounds as a radio talk show host in Kansas City. I also became aware of the obvious and blatant involvement of Jews in the genocidal history of American Indians in contrast to their spiritual calling to right the injustices they have experienced from 1492 to this day and this "American Holocaust" (http://operationmorningstar.org/The%20American%20Holocaust.htm)history is discussed by Lilian Friedberg a Jewish scholar who wrote an article called Dare to Compare: Americanizing the Holocaust.
In further readings, I discovered another shocking fact that contributes to American Indian Genocide to this day and that is the fact that the first whiskey distilleries started in America were established in Newport. by a Jew named Nicholas Lowe and that whiskey was a "Jewish tool" to take advantage of Indians in "commerce". Also, the first slaves were not African, but Indians taken by Columbus to Europe. Most all of the slave ships used in transporting African peoples to America as slaves, were Jewish owned.
I found a story on a Jewish "bounty hunter" named Sigmund Shlesinger, a Jewish immigrant from New York City, working in Kansas on Cheyenne lands near Sheridan Kansas. He gleefully participated in the mass murder and genocide of American Indians, participated in hunting down American Indian families in their homes and attacking them. His Jewish racism targeting American Indians included making sure they were murdered, terrorized, and deported in a massive ethnic cleansing. "Scalpt 3 Indians which were found 15 feet from my hole consealt in grass…for the purpose of collecting bounty." (American Jewish Archives, Hebrew Union College, Cincinnati)
More recent are news articles published in the Wall Street Journal, written by a Jew named Kaplan, glorifying the various military campaigns of Indian killing, as something to be proud of. Michael Medved, a Jewish talk show host, states that there was nothing close to a "Holocaust" of Indians as compared to Jewish history. He called Indian Nations "Struggling Stone Age Societies".

Then there is the scamming lying works of a Jew named Abramhoff who’s resume was pure exploitation of Indian Tribal casino monies. Abramhoff used the "F" word to describe American Indians. He considered them a "lower form of existance...they are just plain stupid...Morons."

And on Indian Reservations here in South Dakota, H. R. Block (Bloch), a Jewish owned tax service, is engaged in racist "predatory lending" and making hundreds of thousands of dollars off of unsuspecting Indians by offering "quick high interest loans" in the name of "getting your refund sooner". Block was sued for doing the same among poor Blacks but has a "green light" from the government to exploit American Indians.

The highest prices for food and groceries are found in two Jewish owned stores on the Pine Ridge and Rosebud reservations…20-30 % higher as compared to off reservation stores. Single Indian mothers needing pampers and wipes for their babies have to pay $2 to $4 more per package. Formula is overpriced compared to Wal-Mart. These mothers earn in some cases less than $400 dollars a month. Is this not racism and economic exploitation of American Indians by Jewish Racism?

The point I am making, is that as I have studied, observed, and witnessed Jewish contact and involvement with American Indians, it has been from the beginning to this day, solely for the purpose of using and exploiting for the purpose of making money off of American Indians. This includes the theft of the Black Hills, the billions in gold stolen from the Black Hills and the ignoring of this by the Jewish segment in America. Jews also have ignored the "loss" of billions of dollars in "trust monies" owed to American Indians by the same United States government. But of course, they want their lost and stolen assets from the Holocaust paid back. How hypocritical.

[Tumbleweed]

^ Trying to post this above was a pain in the ass. Something is wrong and I understand now why Cebu is getting pissed off.