What is MONEY?

[monty]

Many people believe gold and silver are lawful money. Others believe FRN's are lawful money. One thing is for certain, the dollar is money, an FRN is money. An FRN may be legal tender, it may even be lawful money (apparently Congress has not defined lawful money). But an FRN is not a dollar!

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Constitutional Economics 101: What is a Dollar?

By
Dr. Judd W. Patton









A dollar? Most Americans today think it's a Federal Reserve Note. You know, the one with George Washington's picture on the front. But they are wrong! In point of fact it was the Coinage Act of 1792 that created and defined exactly what a U.S. dollar is. "Fine," you might say, "interesting historical insight, but so what?" "Is it really significant that Americans no longer know the original definition of a dollar?" Yes, absolutely! In fact, it is vital to know what a dollar is and the authority the Constitution gives our Federal government in regards to monetary affairs.

Howard Buffett, four-term Nebraska Congressman (R) and the father of Warren Buffett, got to the "bottom line" of this issue in 1948 when he said, "So far as I can discover, paper money systems have always wound up with collapse and economic chaos. if human liberty is to survive in America, we must win the battle to restore honest money."

Representative Buffett knew the difference between irredeemable paper money (called bills of credit in the 1700s) and sound honest money, between Constitutional and unconstitutional money. And he recognized the urgency of restoring the "dollar of our fathers."

Let's discover what Rep. Buffett knew, by going back to our nation's Founders, by looking at the monetary debate at the Constitutional Convention, the Constitution itself, and the Coinage Act of 1792.


Constitutional Debate
During the Revolutionary War (1776-1783) the Continental Congress issued $225 million dollars of paper money to finance the war. These "Continental paper dollars" were not redeemable into gold or silver coins (specie) but they were to be "retired" in seven years through taxes levied on the States. That never happened. As a result of this massive increase in the money supply our nation experienced a runaway price inflation. General
George Washington wrote in 1779 that "a wagon load of money will scarcely purchase a wagon load of provisions." By the spring of 1781 the Continentals were virtually worthless, giving rise to the phrase, "not worth a Continental."

This hyperinflation experience was fresh in the minds of the delegates as they arrived in Philadelphia for the Constitutional Convention in May, 1787. On August 16th, part of the agenda of that day was to discuss the proposals concerning the monetary affairs for the new nation. The proposal under consideration was: "The legislature of the United States shall have power. to coin money. to regulate the value of foreign coin. to borrow money and emit bills on the credit of the United States. The ensuing debate, as recorded by James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, is most telling.

Gouverneur Morris, delegate from Pennsylvania, moved to strike out and emit bills on the credit of the United States." He went on to say, "If the United States had credit such bills would be unnecessary; if they had not, unjust and useless." Pierce Butler of South Carolina seconded the motion. Later in the discussion he remarked that "paper was a legal tender in no country in Europe." He was "urgent for disarming the government of such a power." James Mason of Virginia had a "mortal hatred to paper money" but was unwilling to tie the hands of the legislature. A few others agreed with him, but most of the delegates were vehement in their opposition to irredeemable paper money.

Oliver Ellsworth of Connecticut "thought it was a favorable moment to shut and bar the door against paper money." He went on to say, "Paper money can in no case be necessary.
Give the government credit, and other resources will offer. The power may do harm, never good." James Wilson of Pennsylvania believed, "It will have a most salutary influence on the credit of the United States, to remove the possibility of paper money." George Read of Delaware "thought the words, if not struck out, could be as alarming as the mark of the beast in Revelation." And John Langdon of New Hampshire "had rather reject the whole plan (Constitution) than retain the three words, and emit bills."


On the motion for striking out the phrase, nine state delegations voted "aye" and two "no." New Jersey and Maryland were the "no" votes. The New York delegates were not present. The next day, August 17th, the delegates adopted a measure to punish the counterfeiting of coins and U.S. securities.

Then on August 28th, the delegates debated two articles concerning the role of coinage and paper money for the States. During the debate Roger Sherman of Connecticut expressed the view that, "this is a favorable crisis for crushing paper money." The delegates agreed. The vote was 8 to 1 (Maryland was divided and abstained) to prohibit "bills of credit" (paper money) and 11 to 0 to require States to pay their debts in gold
or silver coin only.

On September 12 the committee of revision reported back to the delegates a revised draft of the Constitution. It was not modified. Therefore our Constitution, in regards to monetary affairs, reads as follows:


Article I Section 8: The Congress shall have Power.
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; and To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States.

Article I Section 10: No State shall coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of debts.

Such was the action of our Founders. Irredeemable paper money is unconstitutional. Only the minting of coins is lawful.


Coinage Act of 1792
Our Second Congress (1791-1793) then implemented the Constitutional requirements by passing the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792. It established the U.S. Mint and defined and
"regulated the coins of the United States." (The complete Act can be found on the Internet at: http://www.logoplex.com/shops/leaders/coinage1792.txt). Black's Law Dictionary at the time defined "regulate" as meaning "fix, establish, or control." The Act established or
defined the "dollar" as a weight of silver (371.25 grains (troy) of fine silver) and then regulated the value of gold coins to it in a 15 to1 ratio, that is, as 15 grains of silver to every grain of gold. The regulation also included establishing the purity and the various denominations.

Thus the Coinage Act gave the new nation three gold coins (the Eagle or $10 gold piece, Half Eagle and Quarter Eagle); five silver coins (the Dollar, Half Dollar, Quarter, Dime (originally spelled Disme), Nickel (or half Disme); and two copper coins (the Cent and Half Cent). This is Constitutional money. Moreover, the Act provided all citizens access at the Mint to coin their gold, silver, and copper (free coinage) and established any debasement of the coinage as a capital offense!


Conclusion
We can now answer our question: What is a dollar? The "dollar of our fathers" is a silver coin weighing almost one ounce. It was never to be debased; it was never to be any weight less than 371.25 grains of pure silver.

Today our "paper dollar" or Federal Reserve Note, once a silver and gold certificate redeemable into "lawful" money before 1963, and something our Founders hoped to banish from our nation, is an "IOU Nothing." It is not redeemable into a fixed amount of silver or gold, let alone the Constitutional amount. As a result it can be reduced in value year by year by means of the printing presses. Our 20th century constantly-depreciating paper dollar has become a means to big and bigger government, and to massive income and wealth redistributive schemes - legal plundering - by our politicians, contrary to Article I Section 8 of the Constitution.

Next spring, perhaps in May of 2000, the U.S. Mint will place into circulation a new dollar coin. (See: www.usmint.gov (http://www.usmint.gov/)) It will be similar in size to the defunct Susan B. Anthony dollar coin but will contain copper and nickel, yet appear to be a gold coin! Our Founders, were they alive, would be undoubtly disappointed, perhaps outraged. George Read of Delaware would likely view the new coin "as alarming as the mark of the beast in Revelation." But Americans will probably hail it as a beautiful, much-needed new coin.

Congressman Buffett understood what a Constitutional dollar was and still is. Americans desperately need to know as well. That is why he warned us in the strongest terms, "For if human liberty is to survive in America, we must win the battle to restore honest money. There is no more important challenge facing us than this issue - the restoration of your freedom to secure gold (and silver) in exchange for the fruits of your labors."


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Myth #14: Lawful Money Is Only Gold or SilverDebunking the Federal Reserve
Conspiracy Theories (and other financial myths)by Edward Flaherty
(last updated September 6, 2000)


Myth #14. "Lawful money" is only gold or silver coin as prescribed by the constitution. The U.S. has been without any such money since 1968.


The constitution in Article I, section 10 reads "No state shall...coin money, emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver a tender in payment of debts..." This means that the only constitutionally valid forms of money are gold or silver coin. This is called 'lawful money.' U.S. paper money used to be redeemable in lawful money, but no more. Our monetary system is based on unconstitutional forms of money. At least, this is how a few conspiracy theorists see it.

The source of their confusion is easy to see and, in this case, easy to understand. Simmons (1939) and Cross (1939) shed some light on the subject. The phrase 'lawful money' had appeared repeatedly in the money and banking laws of the U.S. in the first half of this century, but had never been explicitly defined. It first appeared on February 25, 1862 when Congress authorized the issue of greenbacks and declared them to be "lawful money and a legal tender" for all debts, public and private. 1 This terminology may have been adopted to promote the acceptability of the currency, since the occasion was the first in which Congress attempted to make a paper money a legal tender. At this point in time, then, the terms 'lawful money' and 'legal tender' had no distinct meaning. They were they same thing.



During the Civil War era Congress gave several types of money the status 'lawful money.' On March 17, 1862 Congress declared that Treasury notes (not the T-note debt instrument we know by that name today) were lawful money. February 12, 1862 saw Congress make clearinghouse certificates a lawful money. After the Civil War, on July 12, 1870, Congress placed the U.S. back on the gold standard and specified what types of money national banks could count to meet their legal reserve requirements. "The terms 'lawful money' and 'lawful money of the United States," the Act read, "when applied to these banks shall be held and construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States." So, by 1870 greenbacks, Treasury notes, clearinghouse certificates, and gold and silver coin were all 'lawful money.' The annoying part, though, is that Congress never stated exactly what lawful money was supposed to be. The only concrete conclusion that can be reached is that lawful money and legal tender were two separate things. Lawful money was money that banks could count toward satisfying their reserve requirements. Legal tender was any money that government would accept in payment of taxes. Some money was lawful money, but not all lawful money was legal tender. And vice versa. Confused?


One last example of the confusion Congress created on the lawful money topic concerns Federal Reserve notes. Prior to 1933-34, they were redeemable at any Federal Reserve bank "in gold or lawful money," and Federal Reserve banks were compelled to hold a 35% reserve "in gold or lawful money" behind their deposits. Congress did not use the phrase "in gold or in other forms of lawful money." It definitely set the terms in contrast to each other. This leads one to conclude that Congress did not deem gold to be lawful money, which at the time would have been absurd.


After 1933 all forms of U.S. money were conferred with legal tender status. This set up a paradox for currency redeemability. Federal Reserve notes and U.S. Notes, for example, were redeemable in "lawful money," but what was lawful money? Because redeemability had ended, there was no longer any distinction between lawful money and legal tender. Federal Reserve notes were therefore redeemable with other Federal Reserve notes, or with U.S. Notes, or with any other legal tender.


To illustrate how some people were confused by this, consider the following correspondence between the U.S. Treasury and citizen of Cleveland.




December 9, 1947Honorable John W. Snyder
Sec. of the Treasury
Washington, D.C.
Dear Sir:
I am sending you herewith via registered mail one ten-dollar Federal Reserve note. On this note is inscribed the following:

"This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private, and is redeemable in lawful money at the United States Treasury or at any Federal Reserve bank."In accordance with this statement, will you send me $10.00 in lawful money?Very truly yours,
A.F. Davis
*****



December 11, 1947Mr. A.F. Davis
12818 Colt Road
Cleveland 1, Ohio
Dear Mr. Davis,
Receipt is acknowledged of your letter of December 9th with enclosure of one ten dollar Federal Reserve note.
In compliance with your request, two five-dollar United States notes are transmitted herewith.
Very truly yours,
M.E. Slindee,
Acting Treasurer
*****



December 23, 1947Mr. M.E. Slindee
Acting Treasurer
Treasury Department
Fiscal Service
Washington 25, D.C.
Dear Sir:
Receipt is hereby acknowledged of two $5.00 United States notes, which we interpret from your letter to be considered lawful money. Are we to infer from this that Federal Reserve notes are not lawful money?
I am enclosing one of the $5.00 notes which you sent me. I note that it states on the face,
"The United States of America will pay to the bearer on demand five dollars."
I am hereby demanding five dollars.
Very truly yours,
A.F. Davis
*****


December 29, 1947
Mr. A.F. Davis
12818 Colt Road
Cleveland 1, Ohio
Dear Mr. Davis:
Receipt is acknowledged of your letter of December 23rd, transmitting one $5 United States note with a demand for payment of five dollars.


Your are advised that the term "lawful money" has not been defined in federal legislation. It first came to use prior to 1933 when some United States currency was not legal tender but could be held by national banking institutions as lawful money reserves. Since the act of May 12, 1933, as amended by the Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933, makes all coins and currency of the United States legal tender and the Joint Resolution of August 27, 1935, provides for the exchange of United States coin or currency for other types of such coin or currency, the term "lawful money" no longer has such special significance.


The $5 United States note received with your letter of December 23rd is returned herewith.
Very truly yours,
M.E. Slindee,
Acting Treasurer

*****

It is understandable how reasonable people can become confused when studying the history of the terms 'lawful money' and 'legal tender' in U.S. history. The blame for this rests with Congress who never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition. Moreover, the restriction that States not make anything but gold or silver a legal tender does not apply to Congress, only to the States. Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as the history above shows, it certainly has.



References:

1. Cross, Ira B. (1938), "A note on lawful money," Journal of Political Economy, pp. 409-13.2. Ritter, Lawrence (1961), Money and economic activity: Readings in money and banking, Boston: Houghton-Mifflin.
3. Simmons, Edward C. (1938), "The concept of lawful money," Journal of Political Economy, pp. 108-18.

http://famguardian.org/subjects/MoneyBanking/FederalReserve/FRconspire/lawful.htm

[Shami-Amourae]

Whatever the Jew says it is.

[monty]

That depends on who is agreeing to what it is. If you are dealing with a jew he probably will make that definition.

If you are dealing with your neighbor money might be wheat or potatoes.

[Glass]

Money is something by which the exchange of, discharges the debt.

The method for the discharge of debt is described in the Constitution for the US of America IIRC.

FRN's there for, are NOT money.

[singular_me]

the definition of money becomes completely arbitrary as soon as one asks oneself: what is the purpose of Life itself.... death voids all materialistic concerns. Money was created to lure people about the meaning of Life, and the fact that in 10-15 years there wont be jobs anymore tells that the money paradigm is about to end.

that is why 70-80% of humans will have to be terminated, unless we go back to a pre-industrialization, Amish, lifestyle.


LAUGHABLE
Bernanke calls for prosecutions of top financial execs over 2008 meltdown
https://www.rt.com/usa/317639-bernanke-financial-meltdown-prosecutions/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

Justice Dept. Vow to Go After Bankers May Prove a Promise Hard to Keep
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/business/dealbook/challenges-remain-for-justice-dept-in-prosecuting-executives.html?_r=0

[palani]

Constitutional Economics 101: What is a Dollar?

As there is currently no working definition of a dollar you may feel free to use mine (or not)

Dollar, noun .. The value of one man's labor for one days work [note as well, a day starts at sunrise and terminates at sunset]

http://i58.tinypic.com/4gnmdj.jpg
From THE PAYMENT ORDER OF ANTIQUITY

[monty]

Money is arbitrary on the private side. As a medium of exchange money can be anything agreed upon by the parties involved. On the public side money is determined by the law. I firmly believe the Constitutional SILVER dollar is the lawful money of the United States.

Congress has not defined "lawful money" and regrettably, the Constitution does not define what the money of the United States shall be even though the dollar is "defined" by the coinage act as a silver coin containing 371.25 of pure silver. Like boiling frogs the bankers have perverted our money from gold and silver coin to reedeemable gold and silver certificates to consfication of gold coins, then non redeemable FRNs and metalic slugs minted by the Treasury. Neither an FRN or a 40% dollar or the bimetalic coins meet the requirements of the law but we have accepted them as money and sat idly by while they are debased more and more as time goes by. Just in my lifetime the FRN has lost 90% of its value. The frog is almost cooked.

[EE_]

the definition of money becomes completely arbitrary as soon as one asks oneself: what is the purpose of Life itself.... death voids all materialistic concerns. Money was created to lure people about the meaning of Life, and the fact that in 10-15 years there wont be jobs anymore tells that the money paradigm is about to end.

that is why 70-80% of humans will have to be terminated, unless we go back to a pre-industrialization, Amish, lifestyle.

Have you asked yourself "what is the purpose of life itself?" What did you find?

[7th trump]

Money is arbitrary on the private side. As a medium of exchange money can be anything agreed upon by the parties involved. On the public side money is determined by the law. I firmly believe the Constitutional SILVER dollar is the lawful money of the United States.

Congress has not defined "lawful money" and regrettably, the Constitution does not define what the money of the United States shall be even though the dollar is "defined" by the coinage act as a silver coin containing 371.25 of pure silver. Like boiling frogs the bankers have perverted our money from gold and silver coin to reedeemable gold and silver certificates to consfication of gold coins, then non redeemable FRNs and metalic slugs minted by the Treasury. Neither an FRN or a 40% dollar or the bimetalic coins meet the requirements of the law but we have accepted them as money and sat idly by while they are debased more and more as time goes by. Just in my lifetime the FRN has lost 90% of its value. The frog is almost cooked.

Monty.....a very good post I might say. But.........
One over looked piece of information changes what that Act has said a dollar is.
All acts of Congress are territorial in nature so if Congress says this in an Act it has limitations. Congressional Act's do not trump the US Constitution. Treat Act's of Congress as of they are just a "policy" (their opinion) as that's really all they are within their jurisdictional powers.
The Coinage Act doesn't trump the Constitution and the Constitution doesn't define what a dollar is or what it can be made out of.
So lawfully (Constitutional wise (palani is going to hate this as he knows I'm correct when I say "lawfully")) the dollar is not defined nor is it confined to gold and silver.
I'd say if the Constitution defined what a dollar is and what its to be coined from (gold and silver) then it would be "lawful money" anything else is legal.
Both "lawful" and "legal" are deemed as a unit of money for the purpose of being a "medium of exchange".
It really doesn't matter what money is made of as long as its accepted as such.

Just saying and something to think about.

[aeondaze]

Have you asked yourself "what is the purpose of life itself?" What did you find?

http://40.media.tumblr.com/903935d25b5332c339a27d0efd511c8c/tumblr_mtcnakymIl1s642sho1_400.jpg

:p

[monty]

It really doesn't matter what money is made of as long as its accepted as such.

It really should matter what is accepted for lawful money is. Lawful money should be something that cannot be debased. That would prevent bankers and governments from stealing your labor through inflation.

[govcheetos]

All Money is a medium of exchange, but Primary Money only is the measure of values.
--Coin's Financial School

371 4/16 grains of pure silver = a dollar.

Each dollar is a unit.

All other money is to be counted from this unit of a silver dollar.

Dimes, quarters, and half dollars are to be exact fractional parts of the silver dollar.

Also, it's important to not confuse money with currency.

[7th trump]

It really should matter what is accepted for lawful money is. Lawful money should be something that cannot be debased. That would prevent bankers and governments from stealing your labor through inflation.
[/COLOR]
There is no such thing as "lawful money". Palani hasn't found it yet and never will because its never been defined. All there is about lawful money is 12usc 411 which doesn't define anything. The Constitution doesn't even define money or what a dollar is much less lawful money.
Just throw that notion of "lawful money" thingy out the door because its useless and just an argument armchair idiot wantabe lawyer types like to think and argue over.
And even if there was such a thing banks and the government don't have control over inflation. Sure they can pass some legislation to help curve it but inflation is really the cost of living and the cost of manufacturing. A certain mine might have collapsed causing a material to cost more because of demand which then triggers other area's of the market to very which in turn causes prices to go up or down.
Secondly there isn't enough metal to go around for all dollars to be coined out of gold and silver for just the US alone.

Be glad you have cheap dollars now to get what you need before the collapse.....we are blessed in that aspect

[7th trump]

All Money is a medium of exchange, but Primary Money only is the measure of values.
--Coin's Financial School

371 4/16 grains of pure silver = a dollar.

Each dollar is a unit.

All other money is to be counted from this unit of a silver dollar.

Dimes, quarters, and half dollars are to be exact fractional parts of the silver dollar.

Also, it's important to not confuse money with currency.

I'll agree that all "money" is is just a medium of exchange....nothing more and nothing less.
Argued this with palani many times.
But then again that coinage act is just a territorial policy....its not law or lawful.....its just legal. So Congress says, as far as they are concerned, its blah blah amount of silver. But in reality it can be anything because the Constitution (the only Lawful document) doesn't define what it is.
Before the US mint came into existence there were many foreign gold and silver coins circulating the US and all were used as money and it didn't violate the Constitution......they were lawful money in a sense if you think about it as none of the foreign gold and silver coins violated the Lawful Constitution nor the Articles.

[palani]

So lawfully (Constitutional wise) the dollar is not defined nor is it confined to gold and silver.
Always bringing up the constitution ehhh?

A federation constitution and a national constitution are two different entities. You cannot have one constitution that deals with both a federation of independent countries and a singular national government. This is elemental. So you have a constitution for a federation that no longer exists and a constitution for a national government that is bankrupt.

Which constitution do you desire to refer to tell you what the value of your labor is?

[monty]

There is no such thing as "lawful money". Palani hasn't found it yet and never will because its never been defined. All there is about lawful money is 12usc 411 which doesn't define anything. The Constitution doesn't even define money or what a dollar is much less lawful money.
Just throw that notion of "lawful money" thingy out the door because its useless and just an argument armchair idiot wantabe lawyer types like to think and argue over.
And even if there was such a thing banks and the government don't have control over inflation. Sure they can pass some legislation to help curve it but inflation is really the cost of living and the cost of manufacturing. A certain mine might have collapsed causing a material to cost more because of demand which then triggers other area's of the market to very which in turn causes prices to go up or down.
Secondly there isn't enough metal to go around for all dollars to be coined out of gold and silver for just the US alone.

Be glad you have cheap dollars now to get what you need before the collapse.....we are blessed in that aspect


True, there is no lawful money. But there should be. It should be something that cannot be debased. The Constitution gives the Congess the power to do just this.

My opinion, and I am highly opinionated.

[palani]

There is no such thing as "lawful money".

So you have no faith in Congress and their 12 USC 411?

Actually you are fairly close but aren't there yet. Under 12 USC 411 I am instructed to turn in a FRN to receive lawful money in exchange but since there is no lawful money defined I turn in NOTHING (in the form of a FRN) and I get NOTHING in return (again in the form of a FRN).

Funny how the books are balanced this way.

[7th trump]

Always bringing up the constitution ehhh?

A federation constitution and a national constitution are two different entities. You cannot have one constitution that deals with both a federation of independent countries and a singular national government. This is elemental. So you have a constitution for a federation that no longer exists and a constitution for a national government that is bankrupt.

Which constitution do you desire to refer to tell you what the value of your labor is?

Again ...please prove your premise that there are two US Constitutions.
You said there are two Constitutions, but you provide no documentation that two actually exist.

I have to ask.....what makes you think just because a country went bankrupt that Constitution now longer exists?
It's kind of stupid to think that don't you....unless of course you can back it up with documentation....but I'm not holding my breath.

[7th trump]

So you have no faith in Congress and their 12 USC 411?

Actually you are fairly close but aren't there yet. Under 12 USC 411 I am instructed to turn in a FRN to receive lawful money in exchange but since there is no lawful money defined I turn in NOTHING (in the form of a FRN) and I get NOTHING in return (again in the form of a FRN).

Funny how the books are balanced this way.
So which is it?
You say under one breath theres "lawful money" and now you are saying the books are balanced.
Do you always ride both sides of the fence?

I'll clue you in because you are clueless........ever since the US mint stopped printing Treasury notes 12usc 411 is useless and meaningless....just hasn't been taken off the books because the gold standard is only suspended....not repealed to be taken off the books.
And I really think you are that dense and stupid...ignorance is innocence and you're not innocent...but stupid.

Also...the US mint never stopped coining gold and silver coins either...they still mint gold and silver eagle coins. So ummmm yeah....... you have a problem with your "lawful money" and "12usc 411" premise. I don't know it is and quite frankly I don't care, but I do know the gold standard is suspended which is probably why they don't redeem any longer.
Anything outside of that is just conspiracy nutcase dementia and calling God a fool for giving everyone a brain and common sense that some just want to piss away on foolishness.

[mick silver]

dam you , you beat me too it
Whatever the Jew says it is.

[palani]

please prove your premise that there are two us constitutions

q.e.d.


Amendment v ... Federal constitution


no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

amendment xiv ... National constitution


section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the united states, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the united states and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the united states; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

What did you think? They stuttered?

[mick silver]

http://fscomps.fotosearch.com/compc/RBL/RBL013/b15401.jpg

[singular_me]

It really doesn't matter what money is made of as long as its accepted as such.

I agree, interest free paper money such as the scrip can do pretty well.

then we have monty asserting that an intrinsic value and rare metals can prevent elites from succumbing monetary debasement... unfortunately this has happened a gazillion, literally countless, times throughout human history.

the problem will forever remain the "managers of the money supply". It has nothing to do with what is considered money but the .... **mind or mindset**.

Usury just coordinates grand scale booms and busts better but they have also crashed entire economies popping bubbles caused by manias under gold/silver standards. Or even sunk economies using wars and panics

since most always seek to get richer by taking more out than what they put in, boom and bust cycles are here to say, regardless of the currency. Until people begin to understand the cosmic zero sum game, the nwo cartels are here to stay.

[monty]

I agree, interest free paper money such as the scrip can do pretty well.

then we have monty asserting that an intrinsic value and rare metals can prevent elites from succumbing monetary debasement... unfortunately this has happened a gazillion, literally countless, times throughout human history.

the problem will forever remain the "managers of the money supply". It has nothing to do with what is considered money but the .... **mind or mindset**.

Usury just coordinates grand scale booms and busts better but they have also crashed entire economies popping bubbles like the tulip and missippi manias under gold/silver standards. Or even sunk economies using wars

since most always seek to get richer by taking more out than what they put in, boom and bust cycles are here to say, regardless of the currency. Until people begin to understand the cosmic zero sum game, the nwo is here to stay.

Did I say rare metals?



http://youtu.be/TQ4PGr0WBBc




http://youtu.be/1mI8Lek60_w

[Carl]

Money is something by which the exchange of, discharges the debt.

The method for the discharge of debt is described in the Constitution for the US of America IIRC.

FRN's there for, are NOT money.
Please quote the section of the Constitution that deals with the "discharge of debt", I can't seem to find it.

A bankruptcy discharge releases the debtor from personal liability for certain specified types of debts. In other words, the debtor is no longer legally required to pay any debts that are discharged.

[Glass]

Please quote the section of the Constitution that deals with the "discharge of debt", I can't seem to find it.

A bankruptcy discharge releases the debtor from personal liability for certain specified types of debts. In other words, the debtor is no longer legally required to pay any debts that are discharged.

Section 10. Limits on the States

Clause 1

No State shall enter into any Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty), Alliance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_alliance), or Confederation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation); grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque); coin Money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money); emit Bills of Credit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_%28finance%29); make any Thing but gold (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold) and silver (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver) Coin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin) a Tender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender) in Payment of Debts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt); pass any Bill of Attainder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Attainder), ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_Clause), or grant any Title of Nobility (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobility).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_One_of_the_United_States_Constitution

[monty]

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[singular_me]

Did I say rare metals?


no - but you speak of lawful money and the OP deals with the US constitution

[monty]

UNDERSTANDING UNITED STATES MONEYJune 7, 2015 by LarryParks (http://fame.org/author/larryparks)
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UNITED STATES SILVER MONEY


This is silver money. It is in fact and in law a one dollar coin as provided for by the Coinage Act of 1792. It is in conformity with the dollar referred to in the 7thAmendment to the Constitution.
http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/silver-dollar-300x154.png (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/silver-dollar.png)


This is not a dollar. It is a promise to pay a dollar. (The words under Washington’s image read: “Will Pay To The Bearer On Demand ONE DOLLAR”)
http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a1-300x140.jpg (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a1.jpg)


This is a broken promise to pay a dollar. (The phrase under Washington’s image “ONE DOLLAR” is a misrepresentation. This is neither in fact nor in law a dollar. Even though it says NOTE, it is not a promissory note.)
http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a2-300x136.jpg (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a2.jpg)


Broken promises to pay money cannot retain purchasing power. The history of legal tender irredeemable paper-ticket-electronic money is that its purchasing power always approaches the cost of producing paper money: near zero! Savers and pensioners will be wiped out.



UNITED STATES GOLD MONEY


This is gold money. It is in fact and in law a U.S. Eagle gold coin as provided for by the Coinage Act of 1792 and in conformity with Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution.
http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a5-300x154.jpg (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a5.jpg)


This is not money. It is a promise to pay money. (The words under Jackson’s image read: “Twenty Dollars In Gold Coin Payable To The Bearer On Demand”)
http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a3-300x128.jpg (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a3.jpg)


This is a broken promise to pay money. (The phrase under Jackson’s image “TWENTY DOLLARS” is a misrepresentation. This is neither in fact nor in law twenty dollars. Even though it says NOTE, it is not a promissory note.)
http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a4-300x139.jpg (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/a4.jpg)


Savers, seniors and all those engaged in productive enterprise are at unacceptable risk that the purchasing power of promised future payments — pensions, savings, annuities, insurance, etc. — will be an empty bag. The monetary authorities have made it official policy to depreciate the purchasing power (a.k.a. “inflation targeting”) of our broken-promise “money” and may create unlimited quantities to “stimulate” the economy and to distribute them to whomever. If not fixed, the middle class will be wiped out.
For more information, see:
More Information can be found from Larry Parks HR1098 Congressional Testimony 9-13-11 (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/01-Larry-Parks-HR1098-Testimony-for-9-13-11-Reformat-download.pdf)
To get a copy of What Does Mr. Greenspan Really Think? from Amazon, click HERE (http://amzn.to/1sTgbKS)


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[monty]

SUMMARY OF TRADEOFFS BETWEEN GOLD AND PAPER MONEY, PUBLIC POLICY AND INFORMATIONAL ISSUESJune 3, 2015 by LarryParks (http://fame.org/author/larryparks)
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Question: What Is The Purpose Of Money?The purpose of money is to facilitate the transfer of value over space and time. In other words, we use it to exchange wealth geographically, and to provide for future payment. Without money, which is in effect an intermediate good used for trading, it would become very difficult to have a division of labor, i.e., specialization, and everyone’s standard of living would suffer.


ISSUE
COMMODITY MONEY SUCH AS GOLD OR SILVER
FIAT, IRREDEEMABLE PAPER TICKET-TOKEN OR ELECTRONIC-CHECKBOOK MONEY (U.S. DOLLARS)


Where does money come from and how does it originate?
Commodity money (a medium of exchange) is an invention of the market; it evolves. Market participants want that which is used for money to have the lowest transaction costs when transferring wealth geographically and over time. The market has determined that gold is the most efficient money, then silver. The reason the market chooses gold-as-money is because it is the commodity for which the buy/sell spread increases the least as ever-greater quantities are offered for sale. Because it takes work to create commodity money, it is said to have “intrinsic value.”
An arbitrary (fiat) invention. It is created out of nothing by banks and central banks and made legal (with legal tender, a.k.a. “forced tender,” laws) by politicians with whom they have colluded. Because it takes no work to create fiat money, it is said to have no “intrinsic value.” With fiat money, there is no limit as to how much can be created, and it always eventually becomes worthless.


How is money defined?
With commodity money, money is defined as a quantity of a commodity. For example, in the United States, the dollar was defined by the Coinage Act of 1792 as 371.25 grains of silver.
There is no definition, i.e., there are no units of measure. This lack of a defined unit of measure, as postulated by then Warden of the Mint Sir Isaac Newton, was enough to preclude the use of fiat money in England in the year 1700 and for almost 230 years thereafter.


Is there a limit as to how much money exists?
The amount of money is limited by the costs of producing it. In the case of gold-as-money, those costs include prospecting for, mining, and refining gold.
Because fiat money is created without work, there is no limit as to how much can be created.


Why do people accept money in exchange for their goods and services?
People recognize commodity money as something that has “intrinsic value.” The concept of money as a medium of exchange is to facilitate trading wealth for wealth; labor for labor; work for work. This has been true all over the world for all recorded time.
Because of material misrepresentation and nondisclosure about fiat money, people are tricked into accepting and saving it. In addition, legal tender laws coerce people to accept it when disputes are adjudicated in the courts. For a short while, during the American Revolution, politicians decreed that any who would not accept the fiat currency of the day (called continentals) as payment for goods and services be treated as enemies of the country and precluded from all trade or intercourse. The U.S. Constitution implicitly disallows the notion of fiat currency in Article I Sections 8 and 10.


Is there an historical moral issue with regard to which kind of money we have?
Commodity money is in conformity with the Eighth Commandment: “Thou Shall Not Steal,” and Leviticus 19:35 & 36, which says that one should not falsify weights and measures. Honesty in business dealings is considered consistent with holiness and with moral law.
Fiat money violates the Eighth Commandment and the admonition that one should not tamper with weights and measures. Because it is used for future payment, money is said to serve as a store of value. The generation of fiat money, which is produced without work—how much more work is involved in producing a $100 bill as opposed to a $1 dollar bill?—dilutes that which has been saved and that which has been promised for future payment. It is the same as stealing.


Are different types of money indicative of different societal organization?
Commodity money is generally associated with a freer more democratic society. Government needs money to pay for its programs. Commodity money is impossible to create out of nothing. It must be taxed from citizens. If they have the (theoretical) ability to resist high taxation and withhold their money from government, then politicians cannot act unilaterally.
Fiat money is generally associated with a more statist society. If politicians don’t have to consult citizens or tax them directly to fund government programs, such as wars, then politicians can, and do, implement whatever programs they wish. Thus, fiat money is a necessary ingredient for tyranny. Programs can be funded with money created by the banking system. In effect, politicians and banks embezzle the purchasing power of savings.


Is there an implication for property rights?
Commodity money protects property and is protected by the notion of private property.
With fiat money, when money is diluted by the creation of additional money out of nothing, the property rights of savers and those who have been promised future payments, such as pensions, are violated.


Is there a connection between the type of money we have and government deficits?
It is difficult to sustain government deficits with commodity money because they would have to be funded by borrowing. Since a commodity money supply cannot arbitrarily be expanded, interest rates would increase if government increased borrowing. Manufacturers and others would then object to higher interest rates, causing government to reduce spending, and thereby causing deficits to decrease.
As long as someone, such as the Bank of Japan, the Federal Reserve, or banks, will purchase government securities by creating money out of nothing (called “monetizing debt”), deficits can be funded without greatly increasing interest rates, and deficits can grow without limit (in theory). Eventually, the debts are defaulted.


Is there a connection between taxation levels and the type of money we have?
Commodity money tends to facilitate lower tax rates and less taxation, since citizens see how much is being extracted from them.
As fiat money is created out of nothing, there tends to be inflation and ordinary working people are pushed into higher tax brackets. People pay a larger percentage of their income to taxes.


How does the type of money we have affect real wages?
With commodity money, real wages tend to increase, as does the standard of living.
With fiat money, real wages tend either to stagnate or decrease, as does the standard of living.


How does the type of money we have affect long-term interest rates?
With commodity money, interest rates have historically been about 3½ percent; just equal to the time-value of money. There is good data from Great Britain going back almost 200 years attesting to this.
With fiat money, interest rates include not only the time-value of money but also an additional increment—the so-called “inflation premium”—to compensate for the loss of purchasing power due to the actual and expected creation of additional money. Interest rates are much higher than with commodity money.


What effect does the type of money have on long-term investments?
Since people have confidence in the stability of the medium of exchange in which they expect to earn a return on investment, there is a much longer investment-time-horizon, and much more long-term investment.
With fiat money, there is a much shorter investment-time-horizon (sometimes no long-term investments at all, e.g., as in Mexico, Brazil) because few productive enterprises can earn enough profit to compensate for the loss of purchasing power resulting from money creation.


Is there a connection between the type of money we have and economic growth?
Commodity money facilitates real growth by investing savings, thereby causing increases in physical and intellectual capital.
Fiat money results in nominal growth and less real growth. Eventually real growth and real earnings decrease. Capital is destroyed and there tends to be less replenishment of physical and intellectual capital.


How does the type of money affect price levels?
As productivity increases, prices tend to decrease, thereby resulting in more goods for more people at lower prices. This is what an increasing standard of living means.
Prices tend to increase or, at best, remain stable. In all cases, inflation eventually results because the financial sector overreaches and because politicians inevitably become avaricious for additional funds.


How does the type of money affect the propensity to save?
Commodity money is very savable because it doesn’t obsolesce or deteriorate and is difficult to counterfeit. Purchasing power is not diminished.
Fiat money is less savable and can discourage long-term savings altogether, since its future value is always in doubt. Why save a depreciating asset?


How is job security affected by the type of money we have?
With commodity money, job security is impacted mostly by increases in productivity, which tends to destroy some jobs and create others. Decreasing prices help offset the negative effects associated with the destruction of jobs resulting from productivity (labor saving) improvements.
With fiat money, job security is impacted by rapidly changing interest and foreign exchange rates, and less of a propensity to save and invest for the long term.


Number of manufacturing jobs.
Since there is more investment in productive ventures with commodity money, there are more and higher-paying jobs than otherwise. Because manufacturing is investment intensive, there are also more manufacturing jobs.
Since there is less investment in long-term productive enterprise, there are fewer and lower-paying jobs in countries with fiat currencies. This is because fiat currencies cause higher interest rates and a shorter investment-time-horizon, causing a decrease in manufacturing activity. Generally, there is an increase in the so-called service sector because it has a much shorter investment-time-horizon.


Research & Development and Science Education.
Because commodity money has a lower interest rate structure and a longer investment-time-horizon, there tends to be more long-term investment. Research and development tend to be long-term activities. Thus, commodity money results in more scientific activity and the need for more science education.
Because fiat currency results in a higher interest rate structure and a shorter investment-time-horizon, there tends to be less long-term investment. If interest rates are high enough, as in Mexico or Brazil, there may be no long-term investment at all and little research and development, and less demand for science education.


Interest rate volatility and foreign exchange volatility.
Virtually none.
With fiat money, there is inherent high volatility, which tends to be hedged by derivatives, and which adds additional cost to financing. People in the financial sector benefit. Workers, manufacturers, entrepreneurs and consumers pay the cost.


Levels of debt.
Because with commodity money prices tend to decrease, it becomes harder to service and pay down debt, and debt is discouraged.
Because debt gets serviced and repaid with cheaper money, increases in debt are encouraged. This also works to decrease the purchasing power of savings and future payments, the majority of which constitute pension funds. Today, worldwide government debt is in excess of $34 trillion.


Boom & bust in the economy.
Without fractional reserve lending (leverage), a.k.a. the creation of “bank money” by banks, economic activity expands without busts. With increasing amounts fractional reserve lending, there are periodic booms and busts. A bust results when marginal credit that cannot be serviced is liquidated.
Fiat money tends to create huge bubbles, which, when they collapse––and they always collapse––lead to extended depressions and severe hardship, especially for ordinary working people and seniors.


Effect on the banking system.
The role of bankers is limited to: (1) storing money for safekeeping; (2) acting as intermediaries between savers and credit-worthy borrowers; and (3) facilitating the payments transfer system.
Bankers have a greatly expanded role: they sell instruments to hedge interest rate and foreign exchange volatility; and they create fiat money (in the form of credit) for which they get the interest and fees. In effect, banks’ traditional role as intermediaries between savers and borrowers decrease, and the banks become the equivalent of hedge funds whose downside is guaranteed and subsidized by ordinary working people. The euphemisms for these guarantees are called the “lender of last resort” bailout facility at the Federal Reserve, and so-called Federal Deposit Insurance, which is not insurance.


Likelihood, duration, and size of wars.
Wars cost money. Since the only sources of revenues with commodity money are taxes—which people tend to resist—or borrowing—which drives up interest rates—there tend to be fewer and smaller wars. For example, it is less likely that the U.S. would have fought in Vietnam if President Johnson had to finance the war with taxes.
Fiat currency enables politicians to generate revenues with less accountability. They are then able to act without the consent of the citizenry, which, if consulted, would probably allocate their savings differently. Thus, politicians have a freer hand to engage in military adventurism, and they do.


Effect on military preparedness and the ability to wage war if need be.
A stronger industrial base makes for a stronger military. Also, lower interest rates, which are a by-product of commodity money, make for a greater capacity to finance a war.
A weaker military due to a weaker industrial base. Since interest rates are higher, there is less of a capacity to finance a war.


Social mobility: the ability to improve one’s lot in society.
High.
Less to none. Because improving one’s lot requires the accumulation of wealth, and because it is not economic to save fiat currency, the poor tend to stay poor.


Social engineering (the redistribution of wealth).
Hard to do because it must be done with taxation and people tend to oppose higher taxes. They take a greater interest in where money is spent when it is their own.
Easier to do by creating money out of nothing and “spending” it, lending it, or guaranteeing loans (where it is known in advance that such guarantees can be met by creating additional money). Contrary to popular opinion, most of wealth redistribution is from the poor to the rich.


Who gets the wealth of society?
The people who earn it: workers, entrepreneurs, and the producers of goods and services sold in the market in voluntary transactions.
An inordinate amount of wealth is transferred from those who produce it to banks and financial intermediaries. Large credit-worthy borrowers benefit. Also, politicians tend to profit along with people who are direct beneficiaries of government largesse.


Special privileges for banks and other financial players.
None.
Because of the instability of fiat-based monetary regimes, to “protect” the efficacy of the payment transfer systems, there is a need for a “safety net” for the financial sector. This “safety net,” as Chairman Greenspan has pointed out, is a subsidy to the financial sector. It constitutes wealth transfer from ordinary taxpayers to the financial sector. While regulators are charged with monitoring the financial sector to reduce or make less likely massive wealth transfer, the financial sector has a history of compromising politicians who are nominally in charge of the regulators. At the end of the day, in all cases, regulation fails and the system collapses.


More Information can be found from Larry Parks HR1098 Congressional Testimony 9-13-11 (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/01-Larry-Parks-HR1098-Testimony-for-9-13-11-Reformat-download.pdf)
To get a copy of What Does Mr. Greenspan Really Think? from Amazon, click HERE (http://amzn.to/1sTgbKS)

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[monty]

SIX REASONS WHY PROMOTING THE GOLD STANDARD IS A MISTAKE

June 4, 2015 by LarryParks (http://fame.org/author/larryparks)
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Promoting the “gold standard,” even with modifiers such as “classical,” “pure,” “100%” and others, or any monetary regime whereby paper money is “backed by,” “redeemable into,” “pegged to” or in any other way related to gold is a mistake for six reasons:



The gold standard is not authorized by the Constitution. The only money authorized is gold and silver coin. There is no other way to read Article 1 Section 10: “No State shall . . . coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts.” If U.S. money is not gold and silver coin, how can the states comply with this part of the Constitution? Further, states are not authorized to tender payment in something that is redeemable into gold or silver, just the real stuff in the form of coins. By debating and voting overwhelmingly to strike the words “emit bills of credit” from what came to be included in Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution, Congress was—and remains—denied the power to issue paper money, redeemable, backed or not. Mindful that all U.S. laws must be in conformity with the Constitution, the gold standard violates the “rule of law;”
The gold standard is not a free-market phenomenon. It is a bank invention (specifically the Bank of England) so that banks can achieve greater leverage—and profits—by issuing loans, i.e., extending credit, denominated in claims on money (gold) which they do not have. That is to say, it is an historical fact from the outset that banks issued more receipts for gold and silver, a.k.a. “banknotes,” than for which they had gold and silver;
The gold standard is an invitation to fraud because the issuing authority misrepresents that its promissory notes are redeemable “on demand” for gold. The issuing authority fails to disclose that the “on demand” promise is contingenton whether the gold “backing”: (a) has not been lent to an insolvent debtor; (b) has not been invested in an illiquid entity; (c) has not been stolen; (d) is on hand and ready for delivery or whatever. Another way of looking at this is that a gold standard is part gold and part fiat money. The “backing” is certainly gold, but since all of the paper money cannot be redeemed for gold, that portion which is not redeemable is in fact fiat. Also, the percentage of gold “backing” can vary. Some, e.g., Rothbard, suggest that the only acceptable system is one where the gold “backing” is 100%. But if that is the case, then why designate paper as the money? Most importantly, paper should never be “legal tender.
”The gold standard is inherently unstable because there always comes a time when the issuing authority over leverages by creating receipts for gold greatly in excess of its gold. That is, there always comes a time when the temptation to over issue becomes so overwhelming that it cannot be resisted. The Catholic Church has a line for this, and the Catholic Church has this exactly right: “In the face of temptation, reason succumbs.” A much tighter and unassailable reason why the gold standard is inherently unstable is that there is no self-correcting mechanism for increasing the money supply. A “rule” that depends on human action is not self-correcting. As every engineer/scientist will confirm, cross-culture and cross-time, any system that does not have a self-correcting mechanism blows up. No exceptions;
The gold standard is dishonest. In order for people to use paper money that is supposedly redeemable, pegged to, or in some way linked to gold, as opposed to using gold, the paper money must at some point be declared as legal tender. In other words, the paper money must be deemed by law to be just as good as gold. At the end of the 19thcentury, when William Jennings Bryan ran against William McKinley for President of the United States, the American Federation of Labor, in The Federationist, asked the exact right questions and which are still relevant today with regard to legal tender: If our money is good and would be preferred by the people, then why must we be forced to use it? If our money is not good, why in a democracy should we be forced to use it? The answer to those questions was previously penned in 1871 by then Chief Justice Salmon Chase: “[legal tender] is only valuable for the purposes of dishonesty.”[1] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftn1) Greenspan, in a letter to former Congressman Dr. Ron Paul dated November 20, 2003 wrote: “So long as we issue fiat currency, I see no alternative to a legal tender law.” In other words, if the monetary authority is going to continue to issue bogus, i.e., dishonest, currency, we must have legal tender for it to circulate; and,
The gold standard has empirically failed.


Even without these objections, it is still a mistake and pointless to promote the gold standard because there is overwhelming and unassailable opposition to it. Promulgating the gold standard is the monetary equivalent of the Charge of the Light Brigade: defeat is assured. For every gold standard proponent—almost all of whom are not credentialed—there are hundreds of credentialed (with prizes, doctorates, endowed chairs, books, heads of department, published peer-reviewed papers) “expert” naysayers who will drown out him out.

For example, at the 2013 American Economic Association annual meeting in San Diego, economist Mark Skousen reported that there was only one proposition that had 100% unanimous (forgive the redundancy) agreement: We should not return to the gold standard. Even the so-called hero of free markets, the venerated Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman, intensely disparaged the gold standard, or anything to do with gold, for that matter.

Importantly, the banking (cartel) system can be relied upon to use its very considerable resources to mobilize its thousands of lobbyists as well as its bought-and-paid-for elected representatives to defeat needed legislation.
There is no appetite in any country (with possible notable exceptions of Russia, China, and some small countries) for a monetary role for gold. Nearly every country has it as official policy to depreciate the purchasing power of its currency, the jargon for which is “inflation targeting.” Haruhiko Kuroda, Governor of the Bank of Japan, has even more deceptive jargon for depreciating the purchase power of the Japanese yen. He calls it “price stability targeting.”[2] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftn2) The gold standard would be positioned as deflationary; something to be avoided at all costs. There is no possibility, sans a catastrophic collapse, to pass legislation providing a monetary role for gold.

As a practical matter, because of the mountain of debt along with contingent obligations and liabilities that has been building in nearly every country, there is no way to legislate a transition to either the gold standard or an honest monetary system.

Finally, mainstream media is also nearly unanimous in opposing the gold standard. It is a gross strategic error to devote limited and precious resources to something that contradicts free-market principles, is not authorized by the Constitution, is an invitation to fraud, is inherently unstable, has empirically failed, is dishonest and is doomed to failure no matter what.

The challenge, it seems to me, is to enable gold as an alternate currency to mitigate the damage when the current make-believe money monetary regime collapses, which may occur while you are reading this.
What is to be done?

There is a possibility to pass legislation that will begin to remove the barriers to enabling a competitive currency to the make-believe, a.k.a., fiat, dollar. In my view, legislation that has the most likelihood of being enacted would merely remove IRS taxation on U.S. Gold and Silver Eagles.

Existing statutes and Supreme Court decisions already authorize these coins as legal tender currency for their face amounts.[3] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftn3) Gold clauses have been reauthorized in black-letter law since 1977 and have been upheld by the courts.[4] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftn4) If the IRS were to treat these coins as U.S. currency instead of as “property” in accordance with existing law and stop taxing them, economic laws will trump political laws.

At the margin, some people will begin including gold clauses in contracts that call for future payment, especially pensions. U.S. Silver and Gold Eagles will begin to circulate at the margin as an alternate currency in competition to the make-believe dollar.

From a longer-term strategic viewpoint, one cannot simply propose legislation that would give gold an explicit role in the monetary system and expect it to pass, or even to get out of committee. Better to not even mention gold but to insist on simple honesty in our monetary system and hammer on the injustice, perfidy and myriad perils of make-believe money.

Honesty in this context means that everything having to do with our monetary system, especially what is printed on “FRNs,” government bonds and other financial instruments have no misrepresentations, full disclosure of material information, and not involve coercion of any genre, e.g., legal tender.

In sum, a worldwide campaign could be launched to broadly promote the benefits of an honest monetary system and the perils of our legal tender irredeemable paper-ticket-electronic make-believe money monetary system.
After the tradeoffs are understood, producers, savers, Labor, small countries and ordinary people everywhere will demand an honest system. For reasons discussed elsewhere, the result will be gold/silver-as-money in conformity with the Constitution.[5] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftn5)
Larry Parks is the Executive Director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Monetary Education (http://www.fame.org/), and the author of What Does Mr. Greenspan Really Think? (http://amzn.to/1ykDJQX)
[1] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftnref) Knox v. Lee, 79 U.S. 457 (1871)
[2] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftnref) Economic Club of New York, The Honorable Haruhiko Kuroda, Governor, Bank of Japan, Speech 10/8/14
[3] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftnref) Thompson v. Butler, 95 U.S. 694 (1877).
[4] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftnref) In 1977 an amendment is currently codified under Volume 31 of the United States Code, Section 5118(d)(2), that plainly states that the provisions of the 1933 joint resolution banning gold clauses do not apply to “obligations issued” (i.e., contracts entered into) after its date of enactment in October 1977.
[5] (http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake#_ftnref) Testimony Before the U.S. House Committee on Financial Services, Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy and Technology, 112th Congress, September 13, 2011, Dr. Lawrence Parks, Executive Director, Foundation for the Advancement of Monetary Education; See: Larry Parks HR1098 Congressional Testimony 9-13-11 (http://fame.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/01-Larry-Parks-HR1098-Testimony-for-9-13-11-Reformat-download.pdf)

Support FAME (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=T6GQ9YPW982ML)

http://fame.org/six-reasons-why-promoting-the-gold-standard-is-a-mistake

[mick silver]

The gold standard is not authorized by the Constitution. The only money authorized is gold and silver coin. There is no other way to read Article 1 Section 10: “No State shall . . . coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts.” If U.S. money is not gold and silver coin, how can the states comply with this part of the Constitution? Further, states are not authorized to tender payment in something that is redeemable into gold or silver, just the real stuff in the form of coins. By debating and voting overwhelmingly to strike the words “emit bills of credit” from what came to be included in Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution, Congress was—and remains—denied the power to issue paper money, redeemable, backed or not. Mindful that all U.S. laws must be in conformity with the Constitution, the gold standard violates the “rule of law;”

[Horn]

What is money now or later, I believe its definition moves with time. Good money vs. bad money should be added to it in some form of prefix for the English language. In Spanish its ok, cause its plata which is silver and pesos which is paper. But they screwed up cause they use the term plata for paper money too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00eN1t4iKCo

[monty]

What is money now or later, I believe its definition moves with time. Good money vs. bad money should be added to it in some form of prefix for the English language. In Spanish its ok, cause its plata which is silver and pesos which is paper. But they screwed up cause they use the term plata for paper money too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00eN1t4iKCo

¿Tienes plata?

[Horn]

llama me jose' pagalito pequeno.

[palani]

its plata which is silver and pesos which is paper.

SPECIE. Metallic money issued by public authority.

2. This term is used in contradistinction to paper money, which
in some countries is emitted by the government, and is a mere
engagement which repre-sents specie. Bank paper in the United
States is also called paper money. Specie is the only
constitutional money in this country. See 4 Monr. 483.

4 Monroe 483 is actually quite a simple case

https://books.google.com/books?id=eiNLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=4+monr+483&source=bl&ots=oSb4f7x268&sig=1fJsa8wmCTUX9CQCrONXSweCd40&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAGoVChMI-MPa8s-syAIVB3YeCh2fTgYY#v=onepage&q=4%20monr%20483&f=false

[Carl]

Section 10. Limits on the States


Clause 1
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articl...s_Constitution

The Federal Government is not a State (although it is pushing hard, trying to become one), and it says nothing about a "discharge of debt", which is done in bankruptcy.

[palani]

SIX REASONS WHY PROMOTING THE GOLD STANDARD IS A MISTAKE
Promoting the “gold standard,” even with modifiers such as “classical,” “pure,” “100%” and others, or any monetary regime whereby paper money is “backed by,” “redeemable into,” “pegged to” or in any other way related to gold is a mistake


Actually the argument is religious rather than political. Religion requires that you carry an honest bag of weights and measures. Once you cast the concept of money into a religious category you now start basing your decision on beliefs rather than legislation.

Another mistake people make is by saying there is not enough gold or silver to support an 'economy'. This is a true statement except for one little detail. The use of gold or silver is symbolic only. All you need is one dollar of either one to satisfy law or religion. You can do transactions (contracts) in the form 'one dollar and other valuable considerations' for strangers and 'one dollar love and affection' for relatives. The one dollar is merely a token and everything else can just be a promise.

[Glass]

The Federal Government is not a State (although it is pushing hard, trying to become one), and it says nothing about a "discharge of debt", which is done in bankruptcy.

yes and no, on the one hand the US is bankrupt however we are not talking about the forgiveness of debt but the extinguishment of debt. I guess it is a kind of forgiveness in the bankruptcy context although it might not be in some cases. What is the mechanic of a discharge in bankruptcy? What is the status of the debt? Is it destroyed or set off? In some other condition? I honestly don't know, but I would like to know.

Anyway with out money a debt cannot be paid but if can be transferred to anothers' hands by negotiation. By way of instrument. It's a kind of deferment of the obligation to discharge the debt. I'll gladly pay you Tuesday (if the Money is available) for some Hamburgers today. Unfortunately it isn't, no gold or silver, please accept these IOU's, FRN's. When Gold and Silver come back in I'll pay them out, Redeem them. In the mean time they're are tradeable don't you know.

The question is What is Money? The discussion seems to be about what is Currency.

[monty]

Money versusCurrency

Explaining that money is unreal, imaginery, intangible

Much confusion exits about money and currency. (Note the color assigments.) As you have no doubt figured out, the IBLs (International Banklords) like it that way because it blows out a natural smoke screen that plays right in to their greedy pockets. Farmers Credit Tickets was left as simple as possible to make it interesting for you. Its purpose was to get the basic idea of money across to you. Here, now, is an explanation of the difference between money and
currency.


Two concepts exist that must be understood. If you don’t grasp these two concepts, the banklords will continue to enslave you by making you work for them for free. Not too good a thought, is it? So, let’s fix it. Okay? Good. The two concepts are


1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.


2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.
1. Money is unreal. Money is imaginary.
That is the first concept to grasp.


Unreal means imaginary, meaning it can not be held in your hands.


It is absolutely imperative that you understand that money exists only in the human mind. You can not hold money in your hand, not you, not any one. Money exists as an unreal concept to enable us to run our economy easier. Money must only represent the value of human labor (including services) and the natural resources labor touches. (See MEL (http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/mel.htm).) Being unreal, money can NOT be printed.


Some analogies from our every day life will help to explain these concepts. The numbers and numerals that we studied in school are imaginary, meaning unreal. Plain, old numbers are unreal. When attached to something real, they take on more meaning, but the numbers are still unreal. When attached, numbers represent a certain amount of something real or unreal. In that way numbers are like currency that represents unreal money. Let’s consider 3 apples. The apples are real, but the 3 is unreal. Instead of saying apple, apple, apple, we can say 3 apples. That is convenient. We are using an unreal idea to make communication easier.


Later in school, in algebra, we learned that x could equal something we needed to find. That x is certainly unreal, but it is useful in finding an unreal number that can be attached to something real. In algebra we use unreal to find more unreal, and it works well to our benefit. Then we learned about negative numbers. They were appropriately called imaginary and minus. Negative numbers can exist only in our human mind, but they are handy to use to find other numbers and to represent an absence. A negative amount of money can mean how much we must dig up to pay our bills. That’s handy, though painful, and is unreal, though binding. The positive numbers are called real numbers, but are they really real? This may be the subject of another thesis. But anyway, you get the idea. In math we learn to use imaginary concepts that are useful in thinking and communicating.


If you continued in math, you learned about i, the square root of minus one. It does not exist and can not be changed to a real number. But its concept is handy to use in finding other numbers.


For those of you who don’t like math, let’s take a look at literature. There is fiction, which means unreal, and there is non-fiction, which means real. Fiction is a story that never was real. Non-fiction is a story that once was real.


Then there are pictures. Let’s compare art with photographs. A picture painted by an artist is that artist’s unreal conception. It may be of a real subject, but it is nonetheless the artist’s conception, or unreal idea, of what it looks like. Most photographs, on the other hand, are a true representation of the subject. True, they can be altered, but a straight photo tends to be real, even if it does capture your bad angle.


So, understanding the idea that money is an imaginary concept should not be too difficult. We understand how to use unreal numbers to find real (?) numbers. We understand the difference between art and photographs and fiction and non-fiction. Now, apply that idea to currency and money.Currency is something real that we use to represent something unreal, money. This is convenient. We can not hold unreal money in our hands, but we can grasp and trade real currency that represents our unreal money. It is extremely useful in our lives. Without money, we would be forced to trade eggs for shoes in the terribly awkward and slow process of barter. Our economy would come to a screeching halt.The imaginary concept of money is very useful in representing values(which are also unreal). Money represents value which represents real things such as human labor.(See MEL (http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/mel.htm).) This enables us to trade amounts of money which represents value instead of actually trading eggs for shoes. Currency speeds up the process, making it faster and easier.
2. Money is NOT currency. Currency is NOT money.That is the second concept to grasp. Currency merely represents money.


Since money is unreal, it would be convenient to have something real to represent it. We need something we can get our hands on to use in our daily lives. So, we used our human mind and invented currency to represent money. Now we have something real that we can hold in our hands and use to exchange value. But beware of a pitfall. It is much too easy to start calling currency money, and that is where we get into a heap of economic trouble. People get to thinking that printing currency is printing money, but that is far from the truth. Printing currency is just that: Simply printing ink on paper.


Currency is printed on paper or minted from cheap metal.Money is created, not printed.


We can't print something that is imaginary.


By their own words, banklords create money by making an entry in a ledger, usually in a computer. That is all in the world there is to creating money. When you get a loan from your bank, the banker enters the loan amount in his ledger. Then he enters that amount in your checking account and poof! That money was created out of nothing, just like that. Then you can start writing checks. That banker created that money out of nothing, and now you must pay him interest for it. On the national scale, that crafty little trick has created the national debt. Read Bank to learn about interest free banking that is more in line with our Constitution. We should not be obligated to pay a private banker.


Well, now, let’s stop to think about that for awhile. If money is created by making an entry in a ledger, then that money must be imaginary. Indeed,money is totally unreal! The real paper and metal that we hold in our hands is currency that only represents unreal money.
By the way, coins are currency. Paper bills and metal coins are currency. Please remember that important fact.


The amount of currency we have depends on the amount of money in the economy. If we are short on money, we run short on currency. Operating behind closed doors to secret chambers, the private, billionaire banklords totally control the amount and direction of money in our economy. In turn, that limits the amount of currency we can get our hands on. They never allow us to have enough money for us to be prosperous. This will all make sense when you realize that private bankers can not exist without debt - our debt. The banklords must keep us people in debt if those banklords are to survive and maintain a tight control over us people and our economy. Those closed doors to the secret chambers that the private, billionaire banklords hide behind are on the Federal Reserve System, their phony store front hiding the biggest scam in recorded history. And, brother, are we ever paying for it big time. Their share is the national debt. We get to pay for it in federal taxes and miserable living standards. Thanks a lot, you guys.

So, what do we do about it?

Well, our Constitution directs our Congress to create our money for us. Since Congress is we people, if Congress created our money, we wouldn’t owe anyone even one dime for it. We would not have any national debt at all. But in 1913, Congress gave that privilege of creating money away to private banklords, who really pulled a fast one over on Congress. As you no doubt have observed in the past, private banklords do not give money away, so they charge us for creating our money. The current bill is the national debt. How stupid can everyone get?


Even first grade kids can figure out that if they make something, they can keep it. They made it, so they don’t have to pay anyone for it. It is theirs and nobody can take it from them. And so with our money. If we make it, we won’t have to pay anyone for it. It is ours and no one can take it from us, not even the United Nations. So why in thunder are we paying $trillions to private banklords? Any fool can make an entry in a computer ledger. I thought that was why we had the Treasury Department.


First graders usually can not separate the real from the unreal. Both exist as real in their young minds. All imaginary things are real things to them. If father pretends to break mother’s neck, the child will scream bloody murder, for that child does not understand that kind of play. That pretend act was real and horrifying to that child.


But we adults do have one thing over the first graders. We have the mature ability to tell the difference between real things and unreal things. All we have to do is use it. Unfortunately, to the tune of our national debt, our Congress is living in an imaginary world of make believe, first grade level. They think that money is real. The even think that currency is money. As a result, the banklords just go right on playing their make believe fantasy with them and continue to grasp more and more control over all of us. That has to be the height of gullibility. The problem is, that game is deadly, for those merciless banklords are destroying our government and mentally enslaving us people, all for their mercenary greed.


Congress MUST cease borrowing and CREATE all reasonably needed money.


That is what must be done about it.
All else will fail until that first step is taken.


This is one concept where the first graders have it all over most adults. The kids can figure out that if they make something themselves, they will not have to pay for it. They made it and they can keep it. No one can take it from them.


That is what we people must do to get that initial step taken.

We people must stand as one, mature America and force the first graders out of Congress.


We require mature adults in there that will support us people, not the billionaire banklords’ game of fantasy.
But to be mature, we people must understand and believe that money is totally unreal, and that currency merely represents money. Otherwise the billionaire banklords will use their mainstream media to brainwash us into thinking their thoughts again, and we will be right back to where we started - working for the banklords for free.


I call it mental slavery.

After all, we are working, using our mind, to pay homage to the banklords for a debt not of our making. Sure sounds like slavery to me. Think about it. Unless you like donating about half of your labor time to the banklords like you are doing currently, you darn well better climb on our Congress and tell them what’s up. Wasted labor and the national debt are absolutely insane.


The really good part of it all is that it is so very simple to fix. Simply tell Congress to quit their infernal borrowing and create needed money debt free. How much simpler can we get? And if Congress can’t seem to get the point, recall them from office. Then vote in someone who has some of our kind of grown-up smarts.


You have that power. So, unless you like working as a slave,


you better do it!


NOW !!!


Write that letter. Make that phone call.
You don't have to wait until election time to do it.
Now it is time to read all about MEL. (http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/mel.htm)
http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/moncur.htm

[monty]

no - but you speak of lawful money and the OP deals with the US constitution

http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/contents.htm#Intangile

[Horn]

SPECIE. Metallic money issued by public authority.

people say I'm hard to understand on this board already,

I start using specie in place of money and they'll give up on me all together.

Currency sounds more immediate, but still think they'll think money.

[singular_me]

didnt see that link until now...

but money's value will for ever remain subjective as booms are all elusive, and like I said, since most are more interested to cash out so we cant get rid of booms/busts. How can money be intrinsic under such circumstances?

monetization = circular thinking

[7th trump]

Actually the argument is religious rather than political. Religion requires that you carry an honest bag of weights and measures. Once you cast the concept of money into a religious category you now start basing your decision on beliefs rather than legislation.

Another mistake people make is by saying there is not enough gold or silver to support an 'economy'. This is a true statement except for one little detail. The use of gold or silver is symbolic only. All you need is one dollar of either one to satisfy law or religion. You can do transactions (contracts) in the form 'one dollar and other valuable considerations' for strangers and 'one dollar love and affection' for relatives. The one dollar is merely a token and everything else can just be a promise.

How freaken stupid are you?
Hahahahaha....trying to reinvent the wheel?

Whats underlined and in bold is describing what we have today......a promise to pay.

How is a paper dollar or any symbolic item that represents gold and silver suppose to satisfy Gods demand that we have keep an honest system of weights and measures?
For one thing there isn't anything in the Bible that says money must be gold and or silver.

[palani]

Whats underlined and in bold is describing what we have today......a promise to pay.

Yet you are not observing the required action of providing a token $1 payment in specie. This makes any transaction you are involved with short a vital element of Law ... required for contract.. called substance. So lacking Law you are now subject to Equity and then you complain. The shortfall is yours and nobody elses. Take responsibility for your own failures and stop complaining.

[Horn]

How can money be intrinsic under such circumstances?

This is the root of all evils in the world, imo.

People don't appreciate all the counterfeit security features placed on dollar bills these days. :)

What happens when some sucker purchases fake Pandas from China vs. anyone counterfeiting a FRN?

[palani]

I start using specie in place of money and they'll give up on me all together.

Giving up on you would appear to be a worthwhile goal. It's when they decide you can be rehabilitated that you have to start worrying. A re-education camp is not a benefit you would care to apply for.

[mick silver]

its what ever I will take on a trade if both partys are happy it money

[monty]

people say I'm hard to understand on this board already,

I start using specie in place of money and they'll give up on me all together.

Currency sounds more immediate, but still think they'll think money.

Once in a while you are crystal clear.

[monty]

In spite of whatever money is, if our Treasury issued our currency instead of borrowing it into existence from the FED 90% of our problems would vanish. And our leaders would be "Gadaffied" like Lincoln and Kennedy.

[singular_me]

LOL... yes money's value fluctuates according to sound money theorists but since a fully and transparent ethical system must lead to a zero sum game, what is the real value of money.... zero? ;D

this is because there is high abuse that there is a lot of poverty.... and that makes anybody standing in between chase money even more. The top always centralizes its special interests very easily. we can see this, the number of billionaires and millionaires is skyrocketing.




This is the root of all evils in the world, imo.

People don't appreciate all the counterfeit security features placed on dollar bills these days. :)

What happens when some sucker purchases fake Pandas from China vs. anyone counterfeiting a FRN?

[mick silver]

Money Creation as a Tool of Plunder Governments and their central bank creations usurped market-based monetary and banking systems to serve the plundering purposes of kings, princes, parliaments and special interest groups who all wanted to hold the magical hand of the monetary printing press. Print up money (or its digital substitutes and surrogates in more modern times) and you can have access to all the hard work of others who have invested in manufacturing and bringing to market all the goods and services you desire without having to undertake the reciprocal effort and work to make and trade an actual good or service to earn the money so as to honestly buy what you want from them. Some are so impolite as to refer to such monetary mischief as "fraud" and "theft." Added to this more "base" purpose of government monopolization of the monetary printing press, has been, over the last one hundred years, the arrogance and hubris of social engineers, bureaucratic elites of "experts" and "socially-oriented" policy-makers who presume to know how to micro-manage and macro-manage society better than leaving people to manage their own lives through peaceful interaction with others in the competitive marketplace. Their century-long legacy in the arena of money and banking has been the booms and busts of the business cycle. The monetary social engineers have worn different hats at different times – calling themselves Keynesians, Monetarists, New Classical or Rational Expectations theorists, or Post- and New Keynesians – but they remain variations on the same conceptual and ideological theme: monetary central planners imposing their notions of desired market outcomes by co-opting the functioning of a real and functioning market-based competitive system of free banking using market-chosen media of exchange. The time has come to end the tragic and disruptive reign of monetary central planning. - See more at: http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/36572/Richard-Ebeling-Time-to-End-Monetary-Central-Planning/#sthash.TPbuRiUm.dpuf

[singular_me]

the role of money is plunder... the role of property rights is pillage... the role of freedom is to imprison.... all this because of the illusion that man can own earth

[7th trump]

In spite of whatever money is, if our Treasury issued our currency instead of borrowing it into existence from the FED 90% of our problems would vanish. And our leaders would be "Gadaffied" like Lincoln and Kennedy.

The best quote of the day and probably the most logical.

[Horn]

the role of money is plunder... the role of property rights is pillage... the role of freedom is to imprison...

quit dousing me with absolutes oil, dorothy..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGbfs6HZDNo

[Carl]

So, what do we do about it?

Well, our Constitution directs our Congress to create our money for us. Since Congress is we people, if Congress created our money, we wouldn’t owe anyone even one dime for it. We would not have any national debt at all. But in 1913, Congress gave that privilege of creating money away to private banklords, who really pulled a fast one over on Congress. As you no doubt have observed in the past, private banklords do not give money away, so they charge us for creating our money. The current bill is the national debt. How stupid can everyone get?
That's not true, congress did not "gave that privilege of creating money away to private banklords". Neither the Fed or the banks have the legal authority to create money. The credit they do create is not designated or recognized in law as being a money or a currency.

The Federal Reserve note is owned by 'We The People' vicariously via the U.S.G. The Fed is merely charged with its distribution into circulation. The Fed must post collateral of equal value to the notes it receives from the Treasury. The "Federal Reserve Note" label identifies the notes as being a legal and financial liability of the Fed.

[monty]

That's not true, congress did not "gave that privilege of creating money away to private banklords". Neither the Fed or the banks have the legal authority to create money. The credit they do create is not designated or recognized in law as being a money or a currency.

The Federal Reserve note is owned by 'We The People' vicariously via the U.S.G. The Fed is merely charged with its distribution into circulation. The Fed must post collateral of equal value to the notes it receives from the Treasury. The "Federal Reserve Note" label identifies the notes as being a legal and financial liability of the Fed.


If the Fed did not distribute it into circulation, instead the US Treasury distributing it into circulation would US Notes look similar to this today?

Would US Treasury Notes be credit if issued by the Treasury?

https://scrosnoe.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/value-of-one-dollar-federal-reserve-note-in-1913-dollars.jpg

[Horn]

The Federal Reserve note is owned by 'We The People' vicariously via the U.S.G. The Fed is merely charged with its distribution into circulation. The Fed must post collateral of equal value to the notes it receives from the Treasury. The "Federal Reserve Note" label identifies the notes as being a legal and financial liability of the Fed.

Carl's house is "We the Peoples" property, when's the party dudes?

[Carl]

If the Fed did not distribute it into circulation, instead the US Treasury distributing it into circulation would US Notes look similar to this today?

Would US Treasury Notes be credit if issued by the Treasury?

https://scrosnoe.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/value-of-one-dollar-federal-reserve-note-in-1913-dollars.jpg

Try looking at it like this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-59haqDGoWy0/VWkF4PEIA0I/AAAAAAAAAMs/1oNo1bccFGA/s1600/Dollar-Value.jpg

It's not the value of the legal tender that has gone down, it's the value of Fed and bankster credit, which, when priced in legal tender, is currently worth about $0.04.

The Fed was charged with the responsibility of maintaining the money supply, in that regard, it has failed spectacularly and fraudulently, issuing its debt/credit in its stead.

[Glass]

I think credit is merely debt that has not changed hands yet.

Currency is what ever the government stipulates is currency. And it must be negotiable i.e. a note or similar speci. The similarity being the negotiability of the speci.

In that situation the Treasury can issue some types of speci in a way that does not incur interest costs. Can means, has the ability to or May issue. They choose not to.

From my research on these non usury infected currency, it seems that such currency is not used for the average joe to use for buying gas or beer etc BUT that they are used for the purposes of Public Infrastructure. That means Roads, Rail, Power grid, water supply, dams, seaports, airports and so on. Public infrastructure at no interest cost and fully paid for once built, with no on going cap ex cost. Only maintenance costs.

The Bradbury Pound is one such example. This speci was issued in the UK once upon a time. Of course we know the US has had at least one. I want to say at least 2, in it's history. I would say Lincoln did and someone else maybe but I can't think who/what at the moment. I'm going to assume I'm mistaken about the 2nd one until I can get some time to dig around.

[singular_me]

quit dousing me with absolutes oil, dorothy..


absolutes cannot be achieved but without them we cannot see where we are wrong and improve. But clearly now we are fighting Nature at all levels by thinking we can monetize Her, hence monetizing humans/bodies/exploitation.... it is the premise of monetary speculation that is a faulty one to start with, such a system will always take (a lot) more than what it puts in. The closer to equilibrium, the less profits within a market, the more any monetary value is closer to zero. This is physics.

I have been pondering all this for about 2 years, and I am throwing in the towel defending a destructive concept such as the monetization of Life, root of all evils. Peter Joseph is correct.

[palani]

I have been pondering all this for about 2 years, and I am throwing in the towel defending a destructive concept such as the monetization of Life

Hotel États-Unis [modified for the Empire]:

On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair
Warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, I saw a shimmering light
My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I had to stop for the night
There she stood in the doorway;
I heard the mission bell
And I was thinking to myself,
"This could be Heaven or this could be Hell"
Then she lit up a candle and she showed me the way
There were voices down the corridor,
I thought I heard them say...
Welcome to the Hotel États-Unis
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face
Plenty of room at the Hotel États-Unis
Any time of year (Any time of year)
You can find it here

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
"Relax, " said the night man,
"We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave!

[Glass]

You know Peter Pan had this Shadow that was always trying to run away.

[Horn]

Is why silver makes sense, you can see how ugly you've become in it. lol

[Horn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK_DOJa99oo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m2FhRv8xF0

[singular_me]

actually, CT, quotes the verse.... the love of money and the love of speculation is same.

And people dont get it because religion does NOT teach why a social model must mimic nature's equlibrium. Instead Darwinism has dictated this predatory and competitive model as which of Nature for man. The problem is that man cannot behave like an animal since he received the gift of dominion over the animal kingdom.

so the absolute is a system without speculation... money with zero value... why not eliminate money completely and start working out of passion instead?

the merging of science and spirituality is around the corner... or we are headed for judgement day. Literally.

Go down the rabbit holes, like I did for 3 years, and find out for yourselves... this is extremely powerful knowledge, which is why it is tagged as esoteric since the 'glue' that keeps everything in equilibrium is called: Love (empathy,compassion, respect, etc).



They can keep this "success." The love of money is the root of all evil. One who has Christ is richer than the entire world, though he may be poor in material wealth. Those who are billionaires yet enemies of God have nothing of value. "Success" in this world is inversely correlated to love of the Almighty. Matthew 19:24, Matthew 6:24
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?84118-Pope-declares-that-hell-is-a-myth-and-stands-at-odds-with-the-concept-of-a-loving-Go&p=780106&viewfull=1#post780106

[Horn]

why not eliminate money completely and start working out of passion instead?

Me and my team will get started working on it immediately.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWGeRgFa-hI

[monty]

Ron Paul's Money Lecture Series from 2011

What is Money? With Joseph T. Solerno

http://youtu.be/vowbrq_g5NM

https://youtu.be/vowbrq_g5NM

What is Constitutional Money. With Edwin M. Vieira Jr., Ph. D, J.D.

http://youtu.be/k6gMkKmQSW4
35k views

https://youtu.be/k6gMkKmQSW4

What About Money Causes Economic Crices? With Peter Schiff

http://youtu.be/npJ0CUT8d_Y

https://youtu.be/npJ0CUT8d_Y

[crimethink]

What About Money Causes Economic Crices? With Peter Schiff

http://youtu.be/npJ0CUT8d_Y


Money doesn't cause economic crises.

Peter Schiff's tribe causes economic crises.

[monty]

Money doesn't cause economic crises.

Peter Schiff's tribe causes economic crises.

I didn't listen to his speech, could be he admitted they do. /sarc/

[Horn]

Fiat money causes economic crisis, cause its debt based.

[Carl]

The only value any money has is in its use and acceptance as a medium of exchange, and its only worth is in what it can buy. This holds true for all money, regardless their material construct, or quantity. Whether it is gold, silver, copper, brass, tin, paper, seashells, bird feathers, rocks with holes, etc., is an inconsequential secondary consideration to the material's primary use and acceptance as a medium of exchange. The ability to engage in commerce, at your own convenience, and in your own way, requiring no other man's permission to do so, that's the purpose and the true 'intrinsic value' of money.

All money, regardless its material construct, is backed by its use and acceptance as a medium of exchange. In other words, all money is backed by what it can buy.

Federal Reserve notes are not “Promissory Notes” or "Banknotes", they are U.S. Legal Tender Currency Notes as stipulated in Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 of the 1967 Coinage Act. They do not promise anyone anything other than the ability to extinguish debt with their use, both public and private. Federal Reserve notes are owned by the United States Government, they are a Public Money and the Official Currency of the United States, our monetary property. Federal Reserve notes are what the U.S. Government owes in final payment of its debts and Federal Reserve notes are what the banks owe, by law, to their deposit account holders, upon their demand.

[7th trump]

The only value any money has is in its use and acceptance as a medium of exchange, and its only worth is in what it can buy. This holds true for all money, regardless their material construct, or quantity. Whether it is gold, silver, copper, brass, tin, paper, seashells, bird feathers, rocks with holes, etc., is an inconsequential secondary consideration to the material's primary use and acceptance as a medium of exchange. The ability to engage in commerce, at your own convenience, and in your own way, requiring no other man's permission to do so, that's the purpose and the true 'intrinsic value' of money.

All money, regardless its material construct, is backed by its use and acceptance as a medium of exchange. In other words, all money is backed by what it can buy.

Federal Reserve notes are not “Promissory Notes” or "Banknotes", they are U.S. Legal Tender Currency Notes as stipulated in Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 of the 1967 Coinage Act. They do not promise anyone anything other than the ability to extinguish debt with their use, both public and private. Federal Reserve notes are owned by the United States Government, they are a Public Money and the Official Currency of the United States, our monetary property. Federal Reserve notes are what the U.S. Government owes in final payment of its debts and Federal Reserve notes are what the banks owe, by law, to their deposit account holders, upon their demand.

Couldn't agree more, but a few on here will call you a heretic because they'd rather believe a lie.

[monty]

Judge Anna says you should send a certified letter to your bank president to denominate the funds in your account in lawful money. This will prevent them from consficating the money in your account in event of a bank failure


https://s19.postimg.org/pb6l3u50j/image.jpg


Dear Bank President:
All transactions to my bank account Number xxxxxx shall be denominated in Lawful Money to be in compliance with Federal Law:
12 U.S. Code § 411 - Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption


Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

Sincerely,

[Carl]

Judge Anna says you should send a certified letter to your bank president to denominate the funds in your account in lawful money. This will prevent them from consficating the money in your account in event of a bank failure

Dear Bank President:
All transactions to my bank account Number xxxxxx shall be denominated in Lawful Money to be in compliance with Federal Law:
12 U.S. Code § 411 - Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption


Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

Sincerely,

The problem with her argument is that the term "lawful money" was never defined by congress and the courts have held that FRNs (being a product of U.S. law and owned by the U.S.G.) are "lawful money" so, asking banks to denominate your credited account, which contains ZERO funds (they're bookkeeping entries) in "lawful money" is silly and void of meaning.

12 U.S. Code § 411 applies to the Fed and the banks, not to 'we the people'.

[palani]

The problem with her argument is that the term "lawful money" was never defined by congress
Except a FRN is not lawful money (whatever that is defined to be) 'cause you can turn one in in EXCHANGE for lawful money.

[Carl]

Except a FRN is not lawful money (whatever that is defined to be) 'cause you can turn one in in EXCHANGE for lawful money.

Your reading comprehension skills continue to suck.

[monty]

https://s19.postimg.org/ulkz8sy77/IMG_1071.jpg


This piece of paper appears to be an FRN. The statement on its face implies it is not "lawful money" but may be redeemed for gold or "lawful money". Currently FRNs are legal tender. Is legal tender lawful money? If so why has the USC 12 Sec. 411 not been amended to remove the redeemable clause?

[crimethink]

This will prevent them from consficating the money in your account in event of a bank failure

LOL

"Pretty please, don't take my money?"

[palani]

Your reading comprehension skills continue to suck.
Your logic skills are non-existent.

[Carl]

This piece of paper appears to be an FRN. The statement on its face implies it is not "lawful money" but may be redeemed for gold or "lawful money". Currently FRNs are legal tender. Is legal tender lawful money? If so why has the USC 12 Sec. 411 not been amended to remove the redeemable clause?

That note was issued in 1928 before gold as money was made illegal. Even then the term "lawful money" was legally undefined and about as meaningful as "new and improved" label stuck on an old product. If you read the wording carefully you will see that it states: Redeemable in gold on demand at the United States Treasury, or in gold or lawful money at any Federal Reserve Bank. The note is redeemable in 'gold' or 'lawful money'.

The U.S. Supreme Court has held that FRNs are 'lawful money', but that's just legislating from the bench, only congress has the authority to determine what is or is not 'lawful money' and they've yet to do that. In general, any monetary or security instrament issued by the U.S.G. is considered to be 'lawful money'

The FRA and USC 12 Sec. 411 are laws that regulate the Fed and banking, and because the banks must surrender assets to the Fed in order to get the notes, one could infer that the 'redemption clause' applies to the banks, as they can return excess FRNs to the Fed and get their assets back. Those assets are primarily Treasuries and Agency MBSs.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/aboutthefed/section16.htm

[Carl]

Your logic skills are non-existent.

That silly notion is a product of your pronounced lack of reading comprehension skills.

You quoted me having stated "the problem with her argument is that the term "lawful money" was never defined by congress"

Then your response: "Except a FRN is not lawful money (whatever that is defined to be) 'cause you can turn one in in EXCHANGE for lawful money."

And the fact that you cannot see the flaw in your response, proves my point.

[palani]

the fact that you cannot see the flaw in your response, proves my point.

The flaw is not in my response but in your deduction. The duty of congress is not to define lawful money. That is YOUR job.

[Carl]

The flaw is not in my response but in your deduction. The duty of congress is not to define lawful money. That is YOUR job.

That's just stupid. It is the duty of congress under the constitution to define legal terms, to give them meaning in law. It's called 'the rule of law', which means the restriction of the arbitrary exercise of power by subordinating it to well-defined and established laws.

[palani]

It is the duty of congress under the constitution to define legal terms, to give them meaning in law.

So now you are charging Congress with dereliction of duty? I prefer to let them remain in honor and recognize that when they don't do something then it is MY duty to do it (or YOURS as the case may be).

[Carl]

So now you are charging Congress with dereliction of duty? I prefer to let them remain in honor and recognize that when they don't do something then it is MY duty to do it (or YOURS as the case may be).

Now you're just doubling down on stupid.

Back on ignore for you.......

[palani]

Now you're just doubling down on stupid.

Back on ignore for you.......

I never really thought you had much of a brain... so your confirmation of this is unnecessary.

[crimethink]

"Lawful money" - under the only law that really matters, the Law of God - is any tangible item that is mutually-agreed as a medium of exchange. Gold, silver, other minerals, food, animals...and now, ammunition and similar modern things.

Relying on the Judeo-Freemasonic Constitution, and its worldly instrument, the US "government," to define "money" is subjecting oneself to it as a servant. And whether it's "Federal" Reserve Notes, United States Notes, or even gold or silver certificates, it's still paper, and intrinsically worthless.

[Horn]

I never really thought you had much of a brain... so your confirmation of this is unnecessary.

Carl is a mosquito, why are you expecting so much?

[Carl]

Carl is a mosquito, why are you expecting so much?

And you're an shit sucking tapeworm. You got a beef with me motherfucker, spit it out.

[Horn]

And you're an shit sucking tapeworm. You got a beef with me motherfucker, spit it out.

ooh that itches... :)

[Dogman]

ooh that itches... :) Army ants/bedbugs/lice or mosquitos chewing on you ?

;D

[Carl]

ooh that itches... :)

You have no argument of your own so you side with a total fucktard who repeatedly demonstrates that he has zero reading comprehension skills and a depth of philosophical understanding that ends at the tip of his nose. He has no depth of understanding or charactor. And that's what you're siding with, because you probably believe he's spouting sage libertarian wisdoms, which reflects you depth as well. Now scratch that bitch.

[palani]

And you're an shit sucking tapeworm. You got a beef with me motherfucker, spit it out.

Tell us how you REALLY feel.


You have no argument of your own

And you have no argument that you have the ability to articulate. That's because that is the way your creator made you; i.e., DEFICIENT.

[Dogman]

You have no argument of your own so you side with a total fucktard who repeatedly demonstrates that he has zero reading comprehension skills and a depth of philosophical understanding that ends at the tip of his nose. He has no depth of understanding or charactor. And that's what you're siding with, because you probably believe he's spouting sage libertarian wisdoms, which reflects you depth as well. Now scratch that bitch.

I agree that money /value on your earlier post, with the legal definition, but many here only hold to tho not exclusively gold/silver is the only things that can be called money.

Tho anything that is rare/short supply or has value could be called money as long as all party's agree on the value.

Barter is a great example, ether on a local or international scale.

Horn is horn, fact! He is our space cadet here has never been less!

The others here, viewpoints are ether grounded in fact or wishful thinking /reading in what is not really.

But flying off the handle, makes one wonder, on what your real life situation is, sounds like stressful. Like momma cut you off or worse job situation wise.

Hope things get better for you!

Peace

Sent using Forum Runner

[Horn]

You have no argument of your own so you side with a total fucktard who repeatedly demonstrates that he has zero reading comprehension skills and a depth of philosophical understanding that ends at the tip of his nose. He has no depth of understanding or charactor. And that's what you're siding with, because you probably believe he's spouting sage libertarian wisdoms, which reflects you depth as well. Now scratch that bitch.

I was just telling the guy that you are a mosquito, so not to expect much from a mosquito.

[Horn]

Paper with funny designs makes it worth more to art critics.

Carl is an art critic. (and mosquito)

That each one has serial number and cointerfeit features makes them all the same value.

$1

[Carl]

Paper with funny designs makes it worth more to art critics.

Carl is an art critic. (and mosquito)

That each one has serial number and cointerfeit features makes them all the same value.

$1

You're a virtue signaling fraud and an idiot. You and that pussy palani should get married.

"Lawful money" is whatever I say it is. Who the fuck are you? Incognazant piece of shit.

[Carl]

Tell you what Horn, if you can stop sucking palini's pussy long enough, why don't you enlighten me on the subject of "lawful money".

[Horn]

"Lawful money" is whatever I say it is. Who the fuck are you? Incognazant piece of shit.

It is this exact jewish attitude that has created Carl's world into the pile of leftover curses and trash that it is.

No, money is not what you or you and some jew say it is.

[palani]

why don't you enlighten me on the subject of "lawful money".
You could be enlightened only if your bulb-like head could be surgically removed from your anus you lame indecisive brain-dead corpulent ugolicious rectum-sniffing penis!

[Dogman]

You could be enlightened only if your bulb-like head could be surgically removed from your anus you lame indecisive brain-dead corpulent ugolicious rectum-sniffing penis!

Now, now.

Don't hold back!

How do you really feel?

;D

Sent using Forum Runner

[palani]

How do you really feel?
I could have written more but I am being ignored.

[7th trump]

Tell you what Horn, if you can stop sucking palini's pussy long enough, why don't you enlighten me on the subject of "lawful money".


LMAO!!!!!!!
Can I use this post for my sig line?
I cant stop laughing. By far the funniest post on GSUS to date!!
Wish I had your ability with words.