Reloads...

[Cebu_4_2]

are the claim for this:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7932&d=1448830688
7932

[monty]

Reloads can and will do it. Over load or use a powder that is too fast burning for the cartrige and the pressures go astronomical. My brothers-in-law, when they were small, mixed some of my powders one day when I was at work. They mixed 2400 rifle powder with H4831. I loaded some Weatherby .257 Mag cartridges with 117 gr. bullets. I didn't see that the powder was mixed. I destroyed my almost new Weatherby rifle. It didn't come apart, but set the locking lugs back, expanded the breech, ruined everything but the trigger mechanism. I sent it to Weatherby. They said it was beyond repair and sold me a new barreled action installed in my stock for their cost.

[Cebu_4_2]

Reloads can and will do it. Over load or use a powder that is too fast burning for the cartrige and the pressures go astronomical.

Thanks, Didn't know if they could cause this.

[gunDriller]

So how about some DETAILS ?

I've been re-loading myself.

I noticed that most re-loads using factory recommended powders etc., were 'too much'
for a 20 inch barrel on a 308, in the sense that the powder was not done pushing the bullet.

It is impressively LOUD with a lot of re-coil - but at 200 yards does not have the velocity expected.
Long story short, it needs a longer barrel (just ordered a 24 inch) OR a faster burning powder.

That's where the problem lies. The 'default' volume load for a 308 is 2.8 cc of powder - slower burning powder.

Use 2.8 cc of a fast burning powder and you will have a problem.

So I started at 1.4 cc. Then 1.6 cc, then 1.8 cc. 2.0 cc was bordering on too much. This shows itself often as a gouge in the base of the brass, as it is pushed against the bolt.

So, last night I loaded some 1.9 cc, see how that goes.

I wear safety glasses and a welding mask when I shoot test loads like that.

I tried something similar on the 5.56. Cost me a BCG. Used just 1.5 cc (300 Blackout uses 1.0 cc in the same rifle geometry - same BCG, same diameter bullet base.) Standard volume measure for 5.56 is 1.6 cc.

That 1.5 cc blew out the weakest part - the ejector. Then the hot gases blew out the magazine, giving me a quick lesson in magazine internals.

Sure would like to know the details on that hand injury.

[monty]

What powder are you using in your .308? Whose reloading manuals do you use? I used 3031 powder with 165 grain Speer or Sierra boattail bullets. I don't recall how many grains of powder. But I always started with the suggested load in the Sierra or Lyman reloading manual. I used a Lyman powder measure, then weighed every charge fine tuning with a powder trickler.

[monty]

If you are getting a lot of recoil you may be using too fast a burning powder. I have never seen powder measured by volume, other than black powder. It is always measured in grains. Sierra used to have good reloading manuals. Do not deviate from the specifications in your manual. Your safety depends on it. Start with the recommended load. Work up or down from that until you find the most accurate load for your rifle

[monty]

I had a Model 70 Winchester Featherweight chambered .308. It kicked hard with IMR4895 but was pretty decent with IMR3031.

[gunDriller]

What powder are you using in your .308? Whose reloading manuals do you use? I used 3031 powder with 165 grain Speer or Sierra boattail bullets. I don't recall how many grains of powder. But I always started with the suggested load in the Sierra or Lyman reloading manual. I used a Lyman powder measure, then weighed every charge fine tuning with a powder trickler.

Hodgdon -
BLC2
CFE223
Varget

IMR -
3031
4320
8208 XBR
4895

Winchester -
748

Starting from the Hodgdon-IMR-Winchester website -
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Also, looking at bullet manufacturers' recommended loads.

And, LoadData.com ... good website SORT OF - there are some crazy loads there, with no cautionary warnings. And, they have the Lyman data (not pirated - it's a pay website.)

List of powders ranked according to burn rates -
http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009199435/hodgdon-titewad-smokeless-powder

Fastest burning powder - shotgun.

Pistol Magnum powder Win 296 is ranked #120.

With a rifle, I have room for 2.8+ cc, but max out at 1.9 cc (of pistol magnum powder).

I think what may have happened in that picture is that the shooter was firing a bullet that was loaded with something way too fast burning - like shotgun powder.


I started out with a milligram scale, but $20 milligram scales don't last long. Went through 2 & realized they were not the precision instrument they promise to be.

The one I want - a chem lab scale - is about $250, will have to wait for another budget month.


For my 'trickler', I was using tweezers. One grain of some stick powders is about .001 grams. Anyway, I could get to a nearest milligram ... then I began realizing that the scale was not calibrating correctly.


There sure are a lot of little details to learn, many of which carry the caveat - "wear 2 layers of safety glasses."

For example, at Loaddata there was an article about using 748 to re-load 5.56 - about 2 grains more than factory max. Written by a guy named Brian Pierce, had shooting reports. I tried it, didn't hurt my 5.56.

If you look at the data, you can see there is a "knee in the curve" - a point at which adding more powder causes a disproportionate increase in pressure. e.g. you get 3000 psi for every grain of powder, up to 16 grains ... then the last 2 grains raise the pressure from 48,000 to 60,000. So you're getting 6000 psi for each of those last 2 grains of powder (approximately).

Then Brian Pierce comes along and says, "add 2 more grains". That should take it up to 72,000+ psi (probably more because of the shape of the curve.) It fired OK, auto re-load mechanism cycled without incident.

But ... adding 2 more grains of pistol magnum powder ==> bad idea.



If you are getting a lot of recoil you may be using too fast a burning powder. I have never seen powder measured by volume, other than black powder. It is always measured in grains.

At first, it didn't make sense to me either.

But I was talking to one of the re-loaders at the range and he insisted that measure by volume (the term "throw") is common in the bullet manufacturing industry.

.1 grain scales are common ... I couldn't find a .01 grain scale. When I get the lab milligram scale, I will be measuring to .016 grains (approx).

I would like to find out more about the automated equipment the ammo manufacturers use. I would think they measure automatically to the nearest .001 gram or .01 grains.

At first, it didn't make sense to me either.

But I was talking to one of the re-loaders at the range and he insisted that measure by volume (the term "throw") is common in the bullet manufacturing industry.



I had a Model 70 Winchester Featherweight chambered .308. It kicked hard with IMR4895 but was pretty decent with IMR3031.

How long was the barrel ?

3031 is slightly faster burning than 4895.


Overall, my plan is to "stay safe", and to work up the max loads that the 20 inch barrel works with.

Then shoot that side by side with the 24 inch barrel.

I would like to try 4198 in the 20 inch barrel. It is right on the edge of being a pistol magnum powder, but is classified as 'fast burning rifle'. It is what is used in the 7.62 x39, which has a geometry very similar to the 300 Blackout (very little necking down of the brass). I wouldn't expect to use a full 2.8 cc but it should allow more powder than the 296 ... and MAYBE better velocity for the 20 inch barrel.

[gunDriller]

Reloads can and will do it. Over load or use a powder that is too fast burning for the cartrige and the pressures go astronomical. My brothers-in-law, when they were small, mixed some of my powders one day when I was at work. They mixed 2400 rifle powder with H4831. I loaded some Weatherbyvvvvvv. bullets. I didn't see that the powder was mixed. I destroyed my almost new Weatherby rifle. It didn't come apart, but set the locking lugs back, expanded the breech, ruined everything but the trigger mechanism. I sent it to Weatherby. They said it was beyond repair and sold me a new barreled action installed in my stock for their cost.

So the 2400 is the pistol magnum powder.

That would do it.

I found that the minor explosion from the 1.5 cc was quite dis-orienting, even with the protective gear I was wearing. Didn't realize I wanted all the parts of the magazine till I got home, and called the range manager. He found one more small piece of plastic, from the bottom of the magazine.

.257 Weatherby Magnum is about 70 grains, 4 1/2 grams, 4 1/2 cc. WOW.

That's one of the reasons I try to always wear safety glasses at the range - I know what I'm doing, but I don't know what the guy next to me is doing.


You didn't describe any personal injury - glad you were lucky.

[monty]

So the 2400 is the pistol magnum powder.

That would do it.

I found that the minor explosion from the 1.5 cc was quite dis-orienting, even with the protective gear I was wearing. Didn't realize I wanted all the parts of the magazine till I got home, and called the range manager. He found one more small piece of plastic, from the bottom of the magazine.

.257 Weatherby Magnum is about 70 grains, 4 1/2 grams, 4 1/2 cc. WOW.

That's one of the reasons I try to always wear safety glasses at the range - I know what I'm doing, but I don't know what the guy next to me is doing.


You didn't describe any personal injury - glad you were lucky.

yes, 2400 is what I used for 357 mag. I don't know what the ratio of the mix was, probably less than 25% of 2400. But still enough to ruin my rifle.

I strongly suggest you invest in a good set of scales, RCBS, or Lyman. And a good powder measure if you don't have one. You life is worth it.

[monty]

I used a Lyman 55 powder measure and an older version of the RCBS scales

http://s19.postimg.org/530xdp46b/image.jpg

http://s19.postimg.org/feda6cvvn/image.jpg

[monty]

Hodgdon -
BLC2
CFE223
Varget

IMR -
3031
4320
8208 XBR
4895

Winchester -
748

Starting from the Hodgdon-IMR-Winchester website -
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Also, looking at bullet manufacturers' recommended loads.

And, LoadData.com ... good website SORT OF - there are some crazy loads there, with no cautionary warnings. And, they have the Lyman data (not pirated - it's a pay website.)

List of powders ranked according to burn rates -
http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1009199435/hodgdon-titewad-smokeless-powder

Fastest burning powder - shotgun.

Pistol Magnum powder Win 296 is ranked #120.

With a rifle, I have room for 2.8+ cc, but max out at 1.9 cc (of pistol magnum powder).

I think what may have happened in that picture is that the shooter was firing a bullet that was loaded with something way too fast burning - like shotgun powder.


I started out with a milligram scale, but $20 milligram scales don't last long. Went through 2 & realized they were not the precision instrument they promise to be.

The one I want - a chem lab scale - is about $250, will have to wait for another budget month.


For my 'trickler', I was using tweezers. One grain of some stick powders is about .001 grams. Anyway, I could get to a nearest milligram ... then I began realizing that the scale was not calibrating correctly.


There sure are a lot of little details to learn, many of which carry the caveat - "wear 2 layers of safety glasses."

For example, at Loaddata there was an article about using 748 to re-load 5.56 - about 2 grains more than factory max. Written by a guy named Brian Pierce, had shooting reports. I tried it, didn't hurt my 5.56.

If you look at the data, you can see there is a "knee in the curve" - a point at which adding more powder causes a disproportionate increase in pressure. e.g. you get 3000 psi for every grain of powder, up to 16 grains ... then the last 2 grains raise the pressure from 48,000 to 60,000. So you're getting 6000 psi for each of those last 2 grains of powder (approximately).

Then Brian Pierce comes along and says, "add 2 more grains". That should take it up to 72,000+ psi (probably more because of the shape of the curve.) It fired OK, auto re-load mechanism cycled without incident.

But ... adding 2 more grains of pistol magnum powder ==> bad idea.




At first, it didn't make sense to me either.

But I was talking to one of the re-loaders at the range and he insisted that measure by volume (the term "throw") is common in the bullet manufacturing industry.

.1 grain scales are common ... I couldn't find a .01 grain scale. When I get the lab milligram scale, I will be measuring to .016 grains (approx).

I would like to find out more about the automated equipment the ammo manufacturers use. I would think they measure automatically to the nearest .001 gram or .01 grains.

At first, it didn't make sense to me either.

But I was talking to one of the re-loaders at the range and he insisted that measure by volume (the term "throw") is common in the bullet manufacturing industry.




How long was the barrel ?


3031 is slightly faster burning than 4895.


Overall, my plan is to "stay safe", and to work up the max loads that the 20 inch barrel works with.

(Excellent point!)


Then shoot that side by side with the 24 inch barrel.

I would like to try 4198 in the 20 inch barrel. It is right on the edge of being a pistol magnum powder, but is classified as 'fast burning rifle'. It is what is used in the 7.62 x39, which has a geometry very similar to the 300 Blackout (very little necking down of the brass). I wouldn't expect to use a full 2.8 cc but it should allow more powder than the 296 ... and MAYBE better velocity for the 20 inch barrel.


I think my Model 70 was a 22" barrel.

I didn't like the 4895 loads in the .308 but it worked well in the .30-06 loads.

I also used 4064 powder with good results in the .308, and a ball powder. I can't remember now (too many years ago) 748 or Ball C.

I had a .240 Weatherby Magnum that I had loads approaching 3600 ft/sec.. I killed a deer at about 100 yards with it. He was on the ground before I heard the sound of the shot. It was built on an FN Mauser action, but had a short, thin 20" barrel. After a few shots the barrel would walk around from the heat. The accuracy was not good until it cooled. I got the loading data from Weatherby's reloading manual.


The optimum barrel length for the 240. Wby Mag to achieve maximum velocity is 26".

[monty]

I was talking to one of the re-loaders at the range and he insisted that measure by volume (the term "throw") is common in the bullet manufacturing industry.

This is a true statement. That is the way powder measures work, by volume. However you should routinely weigh every 5th or 10th "throw" from your powder measure to insure that it is consistent. This will prevent overcharges and accidents.

What was throwing me is your using cc's refering to the amount of powder. Everything I ever read always gave the content in grains.

[monty]

So the 2400 is the pistol magnum powder.

That would do it.

I found that the minor explosion from the 1.5 cc was quite dis-orienting, even with the protective gear I was wearing. Didn't realize I wanted all the parts of the magazine till I got home, and called the range manager. He found one more small piece of plastic, from the bottom of the magazine.

.257 Weatherby Magnum is about 70 grains, 4 1/2 grams, 4 1/2 cc. WOW.

That's one of the reasons I try to always wear safety glasses at the range - I know what I'm doing, but I don't know what the guy next to me is doing.


You didn't describe any personal injury - glad you were lucky.

There rifle didn't appear damaged. I was traveling to visit my father. I stopped in the desert and set a beer can on a 4x4 post about 200 yards away. When I fired the rifle it didn't have its normal sound and from where the dust from the bullet hitt appeared to be six or eight inches higher than it was sighted in for. The bolt wouldn't open. Then I realized the trap door on the bottom of the magazine had blown open. The gasses excaping through the ports drilled in the Weatherby bolt had blown the magazine door open. I didn't receive any injuries. A Remington or Winchester may not have fared as well.

http://s19.postimg.org/i9qdd7zvn/image.jpg
Note gas ports in the Weatherby bolt on the right and also the multiple locking lugs.

[gunDriller]

There rifle didn't appear damaged. I was traveling to visit my father. I stopped in the desert and set a beer can on a 4x4 post about 200 yards away. When I fired the rifle it didn't have its normal sound and from where the dust from the bullet hitt appeared to be six or eight inches higher than it was sighted in for.


The bolt wouldn't open. Then I realized the trap door on the bottom of the magazine had blown open. The gasses excaping through the ports drilled in the Weatherby bolt had blown the magazine door open. I didn't receive any injuries. A Remington or Winchester may not have fared as well.


You referred to the 2400 as rifle powder. The only 2400 I found was the pistol magnum powder which apparently is also recommended for some shotguns.

From the description, it sounds like a practical joke (that wasn't funny) done by some young kids that probably didn't understand that it was a bit like attempted murder.


Interesting that the magazine was part of the 'escape hatch' for the over-pressure gases in both our cases.

Also interesting that your rifle shot high with the mistake powder. So did the 5.56 with the 1.5 cc of piston powder ! It was about 2 inches high at 200 yards, where the scope is set to 'flat' at 100 yards.

I was thinking about the Weatherby Magnum and realized that I just heard a guy firing a 300 Weatherby Mag. I was the next range over, about 50 yards over and 100 yards downrange. I was wearing ear-plugs but not ear-muffs. Very impressively loud - I had to go over and see what it was.


>> What was throwing me is your using cc's refering to the amount of powder. Everything I ever read always gave the content in grains.

The Lee dies come with a yellow scoop that is measured in cc. I also have a tendency to think in grams.


>> I strongly suggest you invest in a good set of scales, RCBS, or Lyman. And a good powder measure if you don't have one. You life is worth it.

I appreciate the advice.

I thought the scale was what you use to measure the powder.

Before I gave up on the milligram scale, I simply tare'ed/ zero'ed it with a small wax cup, and dispensed into the wax cup. Then put a funnel on the brass and poured into the funnel.

Hopefully AFTER I remember to put the primer in :) Made that mistake several times.

I didn't understand the difference between a scale and a powder measure.

One of my references is the Midway USA website

They have a page for Powder Measures and Scales -

http://www.midwayusa.com/powder-measures-scales-and-tools/br?cid=701

From the sound of it, the powder measure is sort of automated and has a measuring device like a scale built in ?

I understand that I need to meter/ measure consistently & accurately if I want to get bullets that perform similarly. But I am getting a little OD'ed on all the gear that goes with firearms.

Until I start SELLING bullets, I would be happy achieving minor perfection with a really good lab scale -
http://www.amazon.com/Resolution-Digital-Balance-Laboratory-Analytical/dp/B00AVA0W70

I have been literally using a tweezers & picking stick or ball powder off the cup/ tray to get the scale to measure to the nearest milligram.

That would be a little tedious in high-volume production :)

[monty]

You referred to the 2400 as rifle powder. The only 2400 I found was the pistol magnum powder which apparently is also recommended for some shotguns.

the can I has was very old. It was Hercules 2400 rifle powder.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/ANwAAOSwgQ9VhvaS/$_35.JPG

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?122773-Hercules-2400-Rifle-Powder

The powder measure has 3 slides for calibration.


http://youtu.be/c6CAg2VEeKc

http://youtu.be/c6CAg2VEeKc

[monty]

RCBS used to have great entry level kits at good prices.

For loading ammo in quantities:

http://rcbs.com/Products/Presses-and-Kits/Turret.aspx


http://s19.postimg.org/x4jk54yub/image.jpg

[monty]

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/674112646/10040867/3220fac6f4bf81fa19cfdfa781f9f846.jpg



I had an Ohaus powder scale similar to this one. I believe mine was an M5 Lyman.

Ohaus also makes the RCBS scale

[monty]

I also was casting .30 and .38 cal bullets



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v332/frankwest/SAM_0098.jpg~original


http://s19.postimg.org/k1nxlv8mb/image.jpghttp://s19.postimg.org/cbh5gq6ar/image.jpghttp://s19.postimg.org/93co3ok0z/image.jpghttp://bullets.my3gb.com/images/1-lyman-bullet-mold-chart.jpg

[monty]

Understanding types of reloading presses


http://youtu.be/gqChUEgrVDc

http://youtu.be/gqChUEgrVDc

[gunDriller]

I have the Lee 4 position which is by far the cheapest.

The one thing I notice about Lee dies is that, for the crimp, you need a bullet with a cannelure groove.

My 308 crimp was really sucking, couldn't even see it - when using a bullet without the groove. Same for 5.56 - couldn't see the crimp.


Paradoxically (same bullet, similar brass) the 300 Blackout Crimp makes a very easy to see (and measure) crimp - using a Lee Crimp die, no groove.

Just couldn't get crimp verification with the 308.


My understanding is that the crimp is helpful because it delays the bullet about 1 microsecond. Net effect, it is pushed down the chamber when the pressure is higher.

With the 5.56, crimp shot about the same as no-crimp, BUT the no-crimp had feeding problems. It works better when the front edge of the brass is 'pushed in', sort of like a chamfer.