The Biggest Corporate Implosion In U.S. Solar History

[singular_me]

debts did it again.... just like trump's casino and resorts that were $4BN in red ink in 2009. Debt supported megalomania is a world major disease, especially among corporations and govs.

=======================

SunEdison: The Biggest Corporate Implosion In U.S. Solar History
11 April 2016 GMT

‘We are witnessing the end, or perhaps the remaking, of SunEdison, briefly the world’s largest renewables developer — and now the destroyer of a massive $10 billion in stock market value. We’ve seen epic failure at Suntech, Solyndra and the like — but this is in a different league.

In 2014, SunEdison jumped into deep YieldCo waters with TerraForm Power and TerraForm Global. The company made a series of large, questionable acquisitions in First Wind and Vivint, as well as a slew of lesser corporate additions.

SunEdison has not reached GAAP profitability in more than five years and lost almost $1 billion in the first three quarters of 2015. When SunEdison’s stock was at its peak, the company raised debt rather than equity, and that debt load has returned with a vengeance.’
http://dailybail.com/home/sunedison-the-biggest-corporate-implosion-in-us-solar-histor.html

[Cebu_4_2]

Looks like something I would have bought at the highs...

Go to the 5 year chart.

https://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=SUNE+Interactive#

[Ares]

If Solar was even REMOTELY cost effective and efficient you'd make money hand over fist.

Here is a news flash, Solar is not cost effective or efficient. The technology doesn't exist to make it cost effective or efficient. How stupid does someone have to be to purchase an energy solution that takes 10-20 years before you realize your ROI?

[EE_]

If Solar was even REMOTELY cost effective and efficient you'd make money hand over fist.

Here is a news flash, Solar is not cost effective or efficient. The technology doesn't exist to make it cost effective or efficient. How stupid does someone have to be to purchase an energy solution that takes 10-20 years before you realize your ROI?

The only reason to go solar, is to go off grid.
I knew someone that bought/financed solar for his home. He couldn't tell me why it was a good value. When you buy those package deals that sell extra power back to the electric co., you are no different then someone that paid their electric bill years in advance. Most will probably move before they even see any savings.

[Ares]

The only reason to go solar, is to go off grid.
I knew someone that bought/financed solar for his home. He couldn't tell me why it was a good value. When you buy those package deals that sell extra power back to the electric co., you are no different then someone that paid their electric bill years in advance. Most will probably move before they even see any savings.

I know, I've been looking at a solar solution since I moved down here. A full off the grid solution will run you 30,000 to 40,000 dollars with the DC to AC converter and the large amount of deep cycle lead acid batteries you need to store enough power for night or cloudy days.

The only way solar is even remotely useful is charging your equipment if you're out in the field. For whole house? Forget about it. You'll never realize your ROI within even an acceptable time frame. Because within that time frame you're waiting for your ROI to be realized you'll most likely replace just about every battery in your battery bank at least once pushing out the ROI even further.

[Neuro]

I know, I've been looking at a solar solution since I moved down here. A full off the grid solution will run you 30,000 to 40,000 dollars with the DC to AC converter and the large amount of deep cycle lead acid batteries you need to store enough power for night or cloudy days.

The only way solar is even remotely useful is charging your equipment if you're out in the field. For whole house? Forget about it. You'll never realize your ROI within even an acceptable time frame. Because within that time frame you're waiting for your ROI to be realized you'll most likely replace just about every battery in your battery bank at least once pushing out the ROI even further.
Actually I would say it depends. You'ld need to make choices, heat your house with wood, not have a dishwasher, washing machine, hairdryer, electric coffee machine, vacuum cleaner. If you only use solar for led lights, charging phone and tablet, wifi, a deep chest freezer modified to fridge (you need to have a thermostat in it that turns of electricity to it when it gets colder than fridge temperature... You'll use solar tubes to heat water for showers and hot water for washing, you use a hand driven washing machine and does dishes by hand. Then you can have a system for less than a thousand dollars, that doesn't require more than a car battery, every 5 years or so, and you can do all the installation yourself, but you need to sacrifice some comfort for your off grid independence. If it is worth it is up to everyone to figure out...

[Cebu_4_2]

Ximmy had real good insight in this subject a while back. Made more energy on cludy days etc... Good luck with the search function.

[collector]

Don't forget to factor in chemtrails and global warming initiatives that openly admit that we need to block sunlight - it'll only reduce the power that can be expected out of a solar system

[Glass]

I had read that by law solar panels were only allowed to be 20% efficient and that there were solar technologies that were 80% efficient. Meaning conversion of photons to electrons at rate of 8 out of 10. Where I read this? I don't know. Probably from here somwhere.

But these situations are not about the efficiency of the solar conversion systems, its more about creating a "too big, its gonna fail" operation that can soak up several smaller "corporate welfare projects" so that those operators can cashout a 100cents in the $1 before they need to start demonstrating they really are a business and about making money. Which they are not.

So kind of a cross between a ponzi scheme and a "bad bank" that was setup do dump a shipload more debt into a consolidated vehicle. I bet the aquired companies went at top dollar over what earnings ratios would have suggested was appropriate.

[ximmy]

Actually I would say it depends. You'ld need to make choices, heat your house with wood, not have a dishwasher, washing machine, hairdryer, electric coffee machine, vacuum cleaner. If you only use solar for led lights, charging phone and tablet, wifi, a deep chest freezer modified to fridge (you need to have a thermostat in it that turns of electricity to it when it gets colder than fridge temperature... You'll use solar tubes to heat water for showers and hot water for washing, you use a hand driven washing machine and does dishes by hand. Then you can have a system for less than a thousand dollars, that doesn't require more than a car battery, every 5 years or so, and you can do all the installation yourself, but you need to sacrifice some comfort for your off grid independence. If it is worth it is up to everyone to figure out...

Agree!

Idiot Americans think they need 8000 watts per hour to survive, and some companies want to sell them systems that can run central air, washer and drier, hairdryer and television, lights and gadgets at the same time.

you can easily get by on 1000 during the day or less if you are a careful Off the grid survivor, and live nicely.

I can run a 800watt room air conditioner for 6-8 hours on my 8 batteries and stay charged day by day. Yes it is one room only, you can get by without cooling the whole house if you weren't such princesses.
One major appliance can run for one hour once a day, refrigerator and LED lights can run full time.

You do not need sun. Photovoltacs are not solar. The name "solar" is misleading. Your panels will charge on a cloudy day... Mine charge in the freaking rain.

[Ares]

Agree!

Idiot Americans think they need 8000 watts per hour to survive, and some companies want to sell them systems that can run central air, washer and drier, hairdryer and television, lights and gadgets at the same time.

you can easily get by on 1000 during the day or less if you are a careful Off the grid survivor, and live nicely.

I can run a 800watt room air conditioner for 6-8 hours on my 8 batteries and stay charged day by day. Yes it is one room only, you can get by without cooling the whole house if you weren't such princesses.
One major appliance can run for one hour once a day, refrigerator and LED lights can run full time.

You do not need sun. Photovoltacs are not solar. The name "solar" is misleading. Your panels will charge on a cloudy day... Mine charge in the freaking rain.

I moved down south a couple of years ago and damn near everything is electric here. I blame Duke energy and their monopoly on power generation for this area. Furnace, water heater, air conditioner etc all electric. Even after switching all of my lights to LED's I still use over 1,000kwh a month in electricity. Back in Indiana I barely got to 800Kwh a month but half of my appliances were gas. Stove, Furnace (minus the blower which is electric) water heater, all gas.

So yes while I agree it depends, it also depends on location and the comforts of modern life you'd like to live without.

[ximmy]

I moved down south a couple of years ago and damn near everything is electric here. I blame Duke energy and their monopoly on power generation for this area. Furnace, water heater, air conditioner etc all electric. Even after switching all of my lights to LED's I still use over 1,000kwh a month in electricity. Back in Indiana I barely got to 800Kwh a month but half of my appliances were gas. Stove, Furnace (minus the blower which is electric) water heater, all gas.

So yes while I agree it depends, it also depends on location and the comforts of modern life you'd like to live without.


That sucks. Electric companies and electric device manufacturers are in bed together. This generation is told to leave devices on and the devices draw energy continually. TV's Stereos, cable, internet, computers.

They are called vampire products and they are designed to make money for electric companies.


The blame belongs to the growing number of “vampire (http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/vampire-power.htm)” or “ phantom” electronic products that populate today’s typical home. An alarmingly large number of electrical products cannot be truly turned off without being unplugged. These ‘vampire’ products draw power 24 hours a day whether “on” or “off.”
These devices draw so-called standby power when they are off, according to the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (http://standby.lbl.gov/) (LBNL), which has recently completed a large survey that measured the “standby power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standby_power)” in hundreds of products.
So what is “standby power”?

. . . standby power is electricity used by appliances and equipment while they are switched off or not performing their primary function. That power is consumed by power supplies (the black cubes—sometimes called “vampires”—converting AC into DC), the circuits and sensors needed to receive a remote signal, soft keypads and displays including miscellaneous LED status lights. Standby power use is also caused by circuits that continue to be energized even when the device is “off.”
Based on LBNL’s those results, Clean Beta (http://blogs.forbes.com/williampentland) created the following list of 26 electrical products that consume the most juice while they’re “off.” More specifically, the list ranks the most profligate electrical products based on the average number of watts they consume in “off” mode.
As LBNL explains (http://standby.lbl.gov/faq.html):

A watt is a measure of power – Joules/second – analogous to speed – miles/hour. So, to calculate watts, power must be converted into energy (like speed into distance). Here’s an example: if a device draws 1 watt constantly for a year, then its energy consumption was 9 kWh. That corresponds to about $1.00.
While a single device consumes very little in annual electricity use, when multiplied by several dozen products, you’re no longer talking about chump change.
An individual product draws relatively little standby power, but a typical U.S. home has forty products constantly drawing power. Together these amount to almost 10% of residential electricity use. Altogether, standby power use is roughly responsible for 1% of global CO2 emissions.
What can you do? It is not easy to reduce the amount of standby power many devices use, but it is possible. In fact, research has found that an aggressive effort can reduce standby use by about 30%.
http://blogs-images.forbes.com/williampentland/files/2011/09/Home-Energy-Hogs-Turned-Off.jpg
http://onforb.es/poV14c
#EnergyHogs


A Room-by-Room Guide To Ousting The (Energy) Vampires Lurking In Your Home February 18th, 2015 by Guest Contributor (http://cleantechnica.com/author/guestwriter/)


By Gene Wang, People Power
Did you know that the average household has 25 electronic devices plugged in at any given time? But many of these devices aren’t used daily, and are left plugged in. I challenge you to take a quick tour of your home to take an inventory of devices currently connected to an outlet. I’ll wait….
Many of the electronics you just spotted are vampires. Not the blood sucking kind, but the energy sucking variety. Vampire energy, also known as standby power, is the electric power consumed by many consumer electronic devices when they are switched off but still plugged in, and that wasted electricity is costing you a lot of money! According to the EPA, idle gadgets suck up to $10 billion in energy annually[1].

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/02/18/room-room-guide-ousting-energy-vampires-lurking-home/

[Neuro]

Agree!

Idiot Americans think they need 8000 watts per hour to survive, and some companies want to sell them systems that can run central air, washer and drier, hairdryer and television, lights and gadgets at the same time.

you can easily get by on 1000 during the day or less if you are a careful Off the grid survivor, and live nicely.

I can run a 800watt room air conditioner for 6-8 hours on my 8 batteries and stay charged day by day. Yes it is one room only, you can get by without cooling the whole house if you weren't such princesses.
One major appliance can run for one hour once a day, refrigerator and LED lights can run full time.

You do not need sun. Photovoltacs are not solar. The name "solar" is misleading. Your panels will charge on a cloudy day... Mine charge in the freaking rain.

At my bug out land in Turkey I have only one panel that is rated for 20 W. It charges a motor cycle battery that can fully light up the house for 3-4 hours every night with 12 v led lights, further during daytime you can charge your phone or tablet, but I have no internet. The summers get hot here, but since I had the house built with 2 feet thick stone walls it stays nice and cool in the daytime heat (I should insulate the roof). If it gets too hot you can always take a cold shower. I had a guest house built to the house that I made a root cellar in. I don't know yet how cold it will keep in the summer. But it should be cool enough to store roots, fruits and veggies, cans, cheese and wine.

This house provides unimaginable luxuries, compared to what people had 150 years ago, the photo voltaic electric system costed me about $100 to construct including drawing of cables and all led lights, apart from one fancy ottoman style ceiling lamp. The only running cost is the $15 motor cycle battery that probably needs replacing every 5 years.

I am planning on converting a chest deep freezer into a fridge, it should be able to run on 100Wh per day, so for that I would need another 20W panel, and the excesses that panel produces, will be used to run the water pump for the rain water filtration system!

[Glass]

I was wondering if you Solar experts would mind sharing a bit of information about the type of gear you are running?

The Leds and things like that. Charging regulators. What kind of panels or where from?

Are they wired into the house - lights are permanent fixtures or some kind of portable light or even temporary/movable.

I'm keen to rig something up but not sure where to start. I was thinking of building a battery bank that I kept in the vehicle, slyly plug it in at work to charge it then hook it up when I get home to increase available power. I've been collecting anderson plugs and cables from disused computer stuff. Backup power devices for computers for example. They will usually have an anderson plug and some decent guage wire in them. Especially if you get euro or US designed ones. I won't say made, because I think they are made elsewhere but to Euro/US standards.

I'm really just looking to run lights and some computer gear to begin with. Eventually I might want run something a bit higher draw but that can come later. For now maybe only a couple hundred watts per hour. 300w?

I'm looking for lights that I can setup without having to actually install them like drilling holes or screwing them into things like overhad cupboards etc. Down lights for kitchen areas example.

[mick silver]

this is what I have in my shop for the lighting only I used a deep cycle battery ... it cheap but works ... http://www.harborfreight.com/45-watt-solar-panel-kit-10-pc-kit-68751.html
I also have a 1500 watt inverter hook up to it but I need more battery to run tools

[Glass]

I was thinking of maybe trying a USB powered light system. I don't think there is anything packaged up as a solution but it seems feasible.

Just found this when searching. Make your own LED light bar and run from USB.

http://majsterkowo.pl/en/how-to-make-an-led-based-usb-lighting-system/

Not sure it's bright enough.

[Dogman]

http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Nightlight-Connector-Decoration-Flashlight/dp/B00TMYHM2E?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

[Glass]

thats the kind of thing I was thining about dogman.

I was thinking a multi USB strip of some sort and jamming in a heap of leds.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511sHsTJihL.jpg

These have a touch point on the back to dim or brighten the light. Those look quite bring and 5pcs for $13.

[Dogman]

thats the kind of thing I was thining about dogman.

I was thinking a multi USB strip of some sort and jamming in a heap of leds.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511sHsTJihL.jpg

These have a touch point on the back to dim or brighten the light. Those look quite bring and 5pcs for $13. Read your Emails...Thing to watch is overall wattage limit for the power source. I have a couple of usb batterys one is a 10 amp and the other one is near 15 amp and tested one of the listed leds with the 10 amp and the dam thing almost ran for one solid week (24/7) before a recharge was needed.

But if the source can handle it, tho most only allow 2 amps or so, which at that 5v is quite heavy. But these are 1/I0 amp so 10 per amp, and carry one on my key chain and as you shown with a usb cord can act as a trouble light for anywhere , car with usb and such. I can read with one and for me that is enough.

Look at the link, and there are others offered from other suppliers, one is a 1 amp so you can not gang more than two together with a 2 amp source. I have used some of my wall warts and now have a bunch of very long lived night lights in my house. And being uni directional as far as they plug in is great (flipping)


I am very very happy with mine.....!

They are bright..

[Glass]

I was looking at that link and saw one of these tester things: DROK USB 2.0 Digital Multimeter

looks useful to check output and draw to keep it within limits as you have said.

[Dogman]

I was looking at that link and saw one of these tester things: DROK USB 2.0 Digital Multimeter

looks useful to check output and draw to keep it within limits as you have said.

Very cheap and useful, tho limited to just usb, but seems like a fine tool but limited to only usb , I passed on it because I have other tools that have more utility and range that will do the job! That tool would end up as a test bench Queen here!

you have a vat tax , right?

Sent from my Nexus 7

[Serpo]

I know, I've been looking at a solar solution since I moved down here. A full off the grid solution will run you 30,000 to 40,000 dollars with the DC to AC converter and the large amount of deep cycle lead acid batteries you need to store enough power for night or cloudy days.

The only way solar is even remotely useful is charging your equipment if you're out in the field. For whole house? Forget about it. You'll never realize your ROI within even an acceptable time frame. Because within that time frame you're waiting for your ROI to be realized you'll most likely replace just about every battery in your battery bank at least once pushing out the ROI even further.





has a sunbank and Lithum batteries also here....
http://www.ampetus.com.au/


(http://www.ampetus.com.au/)

I did a lot of study on this subject last year and discovered salt water batteries ,which are better and cheaper, made in America...........

http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/AESCE-Aquion-Battery-e1439172828878.jpg
Aquion’s saltwater batteries: Affordable, safe, clean – and available in Australia

by Solar Choice Staff (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/author/admin/) on October 27, 2015
in Batteries & Energy Storage (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/category/solar-panel-products/batteries-energy-storage-systems/),Solar System Products (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/category/solar-panel-products/)
Aquion is a US-based battery manufacturer bringing a fresh approach to battery manufacturing. The company’s saltwater-based batteries are some of the most affordable, safest, and environmentally-friendly batteries on the planet, making them a great option for residential and commercial energy storage applications.
The number of energy storage options (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/energy-storage-options-are-growing-part-2-what-products-are-out-there/) in Australia are growing rapidly as more and more homes and businesses look to batteries to help them get the most of their solar power systems and reduce their reliance on the electricity grid (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/how-much-energy-storage-capacity-do-you-need). Historically, the conventional go-to solar storage technology in Australia has been lead-acid batteries, which have historically been widely used in off-grid, stand-alone power systems. More recently, lithium-ion batteries have gained ground as their price points have come down and their market share has expanded.

Compare battery storage system prices for your area of Australia – complete the Quote Comparison Request form (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/solar-quote-comparison) to the right of this page.
Despite their popularity, both of these battery chemistries have certain disadvantages. Firstly, unless they are well-engineered energy storage systems can potentially be dangerous, especially as they age. Secondly, they cannot be fully discharged without causing permanent damage to their ability to hold a charge – meaning that in effect their full capacity cannot be used. And finally, they are both heavily reliant on the use of caustic chemicals both in their production and operation.
http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/Aquion-battery-stack.png (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/Aquion-battery-stack.png)

Aquion Energy’s S20-P08F Stack
Aquion is a company created from the outset to tackle some of these issues – and produce a battery that could be brought quickly to market. The company’s batteries – based on a technology that has been around for over 100 years – are unique for a number of reasons. They can be repeatedly discharged to the maximum depth across their recommended lifespan (8-10 years) without damaging their ability to hold a charge. Furthermore, they pose virtually zero risk of fire hazard (they are ‘self-extinguishing’). And on top of this, they are the first and only battery manufacturer to have met all the stringent criteria to obtain Cradle-to-Cradle (Bronze) certification (http://www.c2ccertified.org/) – meaning that they are arguably the most environmentally benign batteries currently available anywhere.
http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/Aquion-overview.png

Benefits of Aquion’s AHI batteries.
But perhaps most importantly for Australian homes and businesses who are considering energy storage, Aquion’s saltwater batteries are already available in Australia – and at a price point competitive with lead acid and lithium-ion batteries.
Further resources:

Check out our Q&A interview with Aquion’s Matt Maroon (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/aquion-saltwater-batteries-q-and-a)
Listen to an interview with Aquion battery importer Ampetus Energy on Beyond Zero Radio (http://www.ampetus.com.au/?p=280)
Aquion AHI vs Lithium batteries info sheet (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/AHI-vs-Lithium-Ion-One-Pager.pdf) (PDF)
Aquion AHI vs lead acid info sheet (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/AHI_vs_Lead_Acid_White_Paper.pdf) (PDF)
Download a spec sheet: Aquion S20-PO8F battery (http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/Aquion-Energy-S20-P08F-Spec-Sheet.pdf) (PDF)


http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/aquion-saltwater-batteries-australia

[Serpo]

I was wondering if you Solar experts would mind sharing a bit of information about the type of gear you are running?

The Leds and things like that. Charging regulators. What kind of panels or where from?

Are they wired into the house - lights are permanent fixtures or some kind of portable light or even temporary/movable.

I'm keen to rig something up but not sure where to start. I was thinking of building a battery bank that I kept in the vehicle, slyly plug it in at work to charge it then hook it up when I get home to increase available power. I've been collecting anderson plugs and cables from disused computer stuff. Backup power devices for computers for example. They will usually have an anderson plug and some decent guage wire in them. Especially if you get euro or US designed ones. I won't say made, because I think they are made elsewhere but to Euro/US standards.

I'm really just looking to run lights and some computer gear to begin with. Eventually I might want run something a bit higher draw but that can come later. For now maybe only a couple hundred watts per hour. 300w?

I'm looking for lights that I can setup without having to actually install them like drilling holes or screwing them into things like overhad cupboards etc. Down lights for kitchen areas example.


I got a panel , battery box , inverter from these people and took them to NZ this summer , quality products.For small scale stuff.

http://www.kickassproducts.com.au/

[Glass]

Very cheap and useful, tho limited to just usb, but seems like a fine tool but limited to only usb , I passed on it because I have other tools that have more utility and range that will do the job! That tool would end up as a test bench Queen here!

you have a vat tax , right?

Sent from my Nexus 7

yeah thats a fair comment. I could potentially get more use out of it for work. And yes we have a VAT called GST. Unconstitutional tax. But everything is unconstitutional these days.

Very interested in those Serpo. I like the form factor for those. Do you have any idea of the cost for those? Ball park.

[Serpo]

yeah thats a fair comment. I could potentially get more use out of it for work. And yes we have a VAT called GST. Unconstitutional tax. But everything is unconstitutional these days.

Very interested in those Serpo. I like the form factor for those. Do you have any idea of the cost for those? Ball park.

As far as I can work out its only around 20grand to have enough batteries but also easy to start and keep adding for the salt water or the lithium.

The sunbank at ampetus is around 12grand for the box and 2 lithium batteries and can add another two later , total cost under 20grand.

Much more compact.

Power in OZ is double that of America so it makes more economic sense here.

If pms ever go up I intend to buy probably the salt water batteries and a sunbank .


In NZ will get one of these as these as there is a good creek with fall........http://www.powerspout.com/


(http://www.powerspout.com/)

[Serpo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3537142/Disney-launches-22-acre-solar-farm-capable-powering-1-000-homes-Orlando.html


(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3537142/Disney-launches-22-acre-solar-farm-capable-powering-1-000-homes-Orlando.html)http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/13/06/3320811E00000578-3537142-image-a-1_1460526159187.jpghttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/04/13/06/3320812200000578-3537142-image-a-4_1460526207977.jpg (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3537142/Disney-launches-22-acre-solar-farm-capable-powering-1-000-homes-Orlando.html)


(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3537142/Disney-launches-22-acre-solar-farm-capable-powering-1-000-homes-Orlando.html)