Europe: Illegal To Criticize Islam

[Twisted Titan]

Submitted by Judith Bergmann via The Gatestone Institute, (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9525/europe-illegal-criticize-islam)


While Geert Wilders was being prosecuted in the Netherlands for talking about "fewer Moroccans" during an election campaign, a state-funded watchdog group says that threatening homosexuals with burning, decapitation and slaughter is just fine, so long as it is Muslims who are making those threats, as the Quran tells them that such behavior is mandated.





"I am still of the view that declaring statistical facts or even sharing an opinion is not a crime if someone doesn't like it." - Finns Party politician, Terhi Kiemunki, fined 450 euros for writing of a "culture and law based on a violent, intolerant and oppressive religion."





In Finland, since the court's decision, citizens are now required to make a distinction, entirely fictitious, between "Islam" and "radical Islam," or else they may find themselves prosecuted and fined for "slandering and insulting adherents of the Islamic faith."
As Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said, "These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it." There are extremist Muslims and non-extremist Muslims, but there is only one Islam.
It is troubling that Western governments are so eager to crack down on anything that vaguely resembles what has erroneously been termed "Islamophobia," which literally means an irrational fear of Islam.
Considering the violence we have been witnessing, for those Westerners who have studied Islam and listened to what the most influential Islamic scholars have to say, there are quite a few things in Islam of which one legitimately ought to be fearful.

Several European governments have made it clear to their citizens that criticizing European migrant policies or migrants is criminally off-limits (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9311/europe-free-speech) and may lead to arrest, prosecution and even convictions. Although these practices constitute police state behavior, European governments do not stop there. They go still farther, by ensuring that Islam in general is not criticized either.


Finland is the European country most recently to adopt the way that European authorities sanction those who criticize Islam. According (http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finns_party_politician_convicted_of_incitement_wil l_appeal_verdict/9328734) to the Finnish news outlet YLE, the Pirkanmaa District Court found the Finns Party politician, Terhi Kiemunki, guilty of "slandering and insulting adherents of the Islamic faith" in a blog post of Uusi Suomi. In it, she claimed that all the terrorists in Europe are Muslims. The Court found that when Kiemunki wrote of a "repressive, intolerant and violent religion and culture," she meant the Islamic faith.
During the trial, Kiemunki was asked why she did not make a distinction between Islam and radical Islam. She replied that she meant to refer to the spread of Islamic culture and religion, and that she "probably should have" spoken of radicalized elements of the religion instead of the faith as a whole. Kiemunki was fined 450 euros. Her lawyer has appealed the verdict.


Kiemunki issued a press release after the verdict, in which she said (http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finns_party_politician_convicted_of_incitement_wil l_appeal_verdict/9328734):






"I am still of the view that declaring statistical facts or even sharing an opinion is not a crime if someone doesn't like it... I wrote that I don't want our country to be overtaken by a culture and law based on a violent, intolerant and oppressive religion."



According to YLE, she added (http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/finns_party_politician_convicted_of_incitement_wil l_appeal_verdict/9328734) that her essay did not generalize about Muslims, but pointed out that not all Muslims are terrorists. "In these times, specifically in the recent past and today, all of the perpetrators of terrorist acts have turned out to be Muslim," she said.




https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/pics/2122.jpg
In Finland, Terhi Kiemunki, a Finns Party politician, was found guilty by a court of "slandering and insulting adherents of the Islamic faith." (Image source: YouTube video screenshot)




So in Finland, since the court's decision, citizens are now required to make a distinction, entirely fictitious, between "Islam" and "radical Islam," or else they may find themselves prosecuted and fined for "slandering and insulting adherents of the Islamic faith." As Turkey's President, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said (http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/2595.htm), "These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it." There are extremist Muslims and non-extremist Muslims, but there is only one Islam.


It is a pity that Kiemunki did not present the court with quotes from the Quran, such as, "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them..." (9:5), and "So fight them until there is no more fitna [strife] and all submit to the religion of Allah." (8:39). Perhaps, then, the court could have at least tried to explain to the public in more concrete detail the differences between "Islam" and "radical Islam."
In the Netherlands, a state-funded hotline, run by the anti-discrimination bureau MiND, said (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/739275/Dutch-watchdog-OK-send-gay-people-death-threats-Muslim) that it could not act on a complaint about death threats against homosexuals posted to an online forum, in which the Muslim poster called for homosexuals to be "burned, decapitated and slaughtered." The reason why this anti-discrimination watchdog group could not act on the complaint was that, "The remarks must be seen in the context of religious beliefs in Islam, which juridically takes away the insulting character." MiND concluded that the remarks were made in






"the context of a public debate about how to interpret the Quran... some Muslims understand from the Quran that gays should be killed... In the context of religious expression that exists in the Netherlands there is a large degree of freedom of expression. In addition, the expressions are used in the context of the public debate (how to interpret the Koran), which also removes the offending character."



So, while Geert Wilders was prosecuted in the Netherlands for talking about "fewer Moroccans" during an election campaign, a state-funded watchdog group says that threatening homosexuals with burning, decapitation and slaughter is just fine, so long as it is Muslims who are making those threats, as the Quran tells them that such behavior is mandated. This might be one of the most astounding examples of voluntary submission to sharia law in the West thus far.
A spokesman for the MiND hotline later admitted that, after "further research" on the issue, it had concluded that the complaint had been "unjustly assessed" -- after Dutch MPs called for the hotline to be stripped of public funding.
In February 2016, a Danish district court found a man guilty (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7452/denmark-free-speech-islam) of making statements on Facebook that the court found to be "insulting and demeaning towards adherents of Islam." The man had written:




"The ideology of Islam is as loathsome, disgusting, oppressive and as misanthropic as Nazism. The massive immigration of Islamists into Denmark is the most devastating thing to happen to Danish society in recent history."

He was fined for "racism." The High Court subsequently overturned the verdict in May 2016. The court found (http://jyllands-posten.dk/indland/politiretsvaesen/ECE8693602/dom-ikke-racisme-at-sammenligne-islamister-med-nazisme/) that the man was in fact innocent of racism, as his statements were "directed at the ideology of Islam and Islamism."
It is troubling that Western governments are so eager to crack down on anything that vaguely resembles what has erroneously been termed "Islamophobia," which literally means an irrational fear of Islam. Considering the violence we have been witnessing, it would be irrational notto have fear of its threats. As Shabnam Assadollahi recently pointed out in an open letter (http://en.cijnews.com/?p=60057) to Canadian Members of Parliament, there are quite a few things in Islam of which one legitimately ought to be fearful.


All these governments need to do is consult the speeches of one of the most influential living Islamic scholars of Sunni Islam, the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Yusuf al-Qaradawi. Qaradawi hosts one of Al Jazeera's most popular programs, Sharia and Life, which reaches an estimated 60 million viewers worldwide. Already in 1995, Qaradawi told (http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/167/yusuf-al-qaradawi#_ftnref2) a Muslim Arab Youth Association convention in Toledo, Ohio, "We will conquer Europe, we will conquer America! Not through the sword, but through dawa [outreach]."


Dawa, the Islamic call to conversion, is the Islamic summons for the non-violent conquest of non-Muslim lands, including Europe. As explained by Qaradawi in a recording (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDtSqqciar0&list=PLM30HXdcWETnKRP6JG0-KEAk2479VWmr8) from 2007, the aim of the conquest consists mainly the introduction of sharia law. According (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj7clSyTDAo) to Qaradawi, sharia law should be inserted gradually, over a five-year period in a new country, before implementing it in full. This sharia law includes chopping off hands (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj7clSyTDAo) for theft; killing apostates (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huMu8ihDlVA) and homosexuals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxnVSnnZs0Q), denigrating and oppressing women, as in polygamy, beating them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQdkLSO_l-8)as a means of "disciplining" them, and so on. For those Westerners who have studied Islam and listened to what the most influential Islamic scholars have to say, there is quite a bit to be "phobic" about. It would be refreshing to hear the views of European leaders and courts on these aspects of sharia law instead of their almost ritual condemnations of those who have actually studied Islamic sources and seek to raise awareness of the nature of sharia law.


While prosecuting and sanctioning people who criticize Islam is becoming more common in Europe, this practice used to be reserved only for Muslim countries officially governed by sharia law, such as Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, where it is forbidden to insult Islam.


It is a pity that European courts and other state bodies have begun taking their cues from Islamic law. Apparently, European judges and politicians are no longer capable of appreciating the immense freedoms that used to be the norm on the continent, and which they seem all too willing, of their own free will, to abolish.

[Norweger]

Oh no! Somebody isn't being kind with the sodomites! What a tragedy!

Only Gert Wilders can save Europe from total destruction from the scary muslims that fly airplanes into towers. Israel Greatest ally!


Here is a young Gert Wilders in an Israeli Kibbutz.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XnnVV8weovo/Sp7KPKNGnoI/AAAAAAAAAFE/swLalROjZHY/s320/Islam+in+Europe+-+Wilders+Israel.jpg

Here he is at the remains of the Roman military barracks that the jews and christians refer to as the wailing wall.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TsMjPCR8VBg/TVp4gLKSbaI/AAAAAAAABRQ/RdCXMycPp4g/s1600/gert2.jpg

On a more serious note. The hate some folks display for Islam makes them throw away all their principles and past learnings and post nonsense they know is false. Seen it over and over on this forum.

Ah yes, and the article compares Islam to nazism to prove how "bad" it is.

Why do you post this crap?

[Twisted Titan]

Islam is diametrically oppossed to ALL i repeat ALL other religions

Islam is not the religion of peace...it is the religion of the sword because it is with the sword mumhammed expelled all other relgions off the arabian peninusula


And where it couldnt extended by the sword , it used false treaties and deceptions.

Muslims that practice islam actively have no honor because The koran says you are able to lie to gain the upper hand and you can also lie to your wife. You can even lie and disown being a muslim if the situation calls for it.

[Twisted Titan]

And just for the record im not Jewish...and do not support those Askenazi Khazars that masqurade around like they are the people of The Book.

They are imposters and The Father was warned us about them in that very same book

My point for the article was to bring up how islam always tip toe in and chant peace,peace peace but it reaches a point when they grow so bold that it reaches a point of intolerance.

A country that invites muslims in can now be jailed by the very people they invited in.....that is sheer utter insanity

[palani]

Pendulums swing. Extremes are never tolerated for long.

[crimethink]

(((Judith Bergmann)))

Gee, I wonder where this "thought crime" trend came from? Does anyone know?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

[crimethink]

sodomites...muslims...Israel

We Aryan Christian Goyim want to flush all three right down the shitter.

[Neuro]

Oh no! Somebody isn't being kind with the sodomites! What a tragedy!

Only Gert Wilders can save Europe from total destruction from the scary muslims that fly airplanes into towers. Israel Greatest ally!


Here is a young Gert Wilders in an Israeli Kibbutz.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XnnVV8weovo/Sp7KPKNGnoI/AAAAAAAAAFE/swLalROjZHY/s320/Islam+in+Europe+-+Wilders+Israel.jpg

Here he is at the remains of the Roman military barracks that the jews and christians refer to as the wailing wall.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TsMjPCR8VBg/TVp4gLKSbaI/AAAAAAAABRQ/RdCXMycPp4g/s1600/gert2.jpg

On a more serious note. The hate some folks display for Islam makes them throw away all their principles and past learnings and post nonsense they know is false. Seen it over and over on this forum.

Ah yes, and the article compares Islam to nazism to prove how "bad" it is.

Why do you post this crap?
"Nazism" yes, that is the mythology raised to ideology on how bad National Socialism was, a sick Talmudic fantasy on how they were treated by the Germans!

There really isn't much difference between Islamic supremacism and Jewish supremacism, inherent in their religious belief is they want everybody dead that is not them. Main difference is ability and cunning!

[Cebu_4_2]

There really isn't much difference between Islamic supremacism and Jewish supremacism, inherent in there religion they want everybody dead that is not them. Main difference is ability!

Was about to post similar. They both echo each other. Like Islam is a new test pilot for the Jews to see how far they can go with it.

[singular_me]

that anybody falls for any form of control is beyond me... all religious wars are meant to happen, thats their main purpose

christianity terrorized masses for centuries too, from 1000-1700 AD

[Neuro]

that anybody falls for any form of control is beyond me... all religious wars are meant to happen, thats their main purpose

christianity terrorized masses for centuries too, from 1000-1700 AD
Don't fall for Jew history. The crusades was an attempt to stop Islam from taking Europe, and to retake some of the lands stolen from Christianity by Islam. Without them you'ld be Muslim today (in the hypothetical case you'ld still exist). But continue to beat the drum on your antichrist-crusade. The fact that your father came from and took you to a Christian country has allowed you the freedom to think whatever you want.

[Twisted Titan]

Ding!!! Ding!!! Ding!!!

I laugh at all the people that bash christianity.( and i dont even subscribe to it per se. I follow Yashua)

But i tell these people you better thank God that christian principles govern where you live.


See how free you are to connect with "consicioness "and tap into the "devine femine" in saudi arabia or some other muslim country

[crimethink]

christianity terrorized masses for centuries too, from 1000-1700 AD

"Terrorized" them with hospitals, universities, and the concept of mercy?

"Oh, the 'witch burnings'! Oh, oh!"

Never mind the Druid Wicker Man...

[Twisted Titan]

And the ruital blood sacrifices at Stonehenge

[Hitch]

They stone women to death for any alleged infidelity. Men can physically abuse their wives under Islam. They can rape, behead, and murder others under Islam.

We can't criticize that? Fuck that. To hell with those bastards trying to harm others.

[Twisted Titan]

They stone women to death for any alleged infidelity. Men can physically abuse their wives under Islam. They can rape, behead, and murder others under Islam.

We can't criticize that? Fuck that. To hell with those bastards trying to harm others.


Stop being intelorant!!!

Muslims that are active follow The Sunna

Because how The Prophet lived was the very best pattern of conduct.

[palani]

We can't criticize that?

You have several choices. One is to join Islam for the express purpose of criticizing it. Or you can hang out with Islam guys and tell 'em they are wrong [hint .. if you think this will work why not try to the same tactics on Hell's Angels ... bound to get you stomped]. Or you might wait until you get injured, articulate that injury and seek a remedy.

Maybe you have other ideas that might work. If so let's hear 'em.

Everyone has an opinion. Few actually have standing.

[Twisted Titan]

You have several choices. One is to join Islam for the express purpose of criticizing it. Or you can hang out with Islam guys and tell 'em they are wrong


Who told you critiscism of Islam is alllowed?????

Any critiscism within islam brings the DEATH PENALTY


just look at now the three waring classes

Sunni and Shia have been at each others throats since the time of mumhhameds death because the disagree on who should lead ( The first of the 4 Caliphs or Ali ( a cousin of muhammed))

It was never resolved and they still kill each other to this day.

And BOTH groups oppress the achemadia sect...to the point where they cant even get the protections of being a muslim and saudi arabia wont even allow them to take the hajj if they disclose they are achmadi

[palani]

Who told you critiscism of Islam is alllowed?????

Any critiscism within islam brings the DEATH PENALTY

I merely mentioned that as a possible course of action.

I never suggested it was a recommended course of action.

Any action creates a person. It is the person who is punished. Joining fringe groups of any sort means you are bound by their rules. Most fringe groups are not democratic.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/15/4e/04/154e0488717ea6709a301dddbbcbe957.jpg
Picture this guy joining Hells Angels because he believes they should ride Suzuki's rather than Harleys.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/bf/ef/cc/bfefcc88e8777101ec5561f59ce1cc7a.jpg
Now picture this guy coming up to a group of Hells Angles telling them he believes the reasons Harleys should be outlawed is their adverse impact upon the environment and Suzuki is a greener machine.

Both guys are going to get stomped.

[Hitch]

You have several choices. One is to join Islam for the express purpose of criticizing it. Or you can hang out with Islam guys and tell 'em they are wrong [hint .. if you think this will work why not try to the same tactics on Hell's Angels ... bound to get you stomped]. Or you might wait until you get injured, articulate that injury and seek a remedy.

Maybe you have other ideas that might work. If so let's hear 'em.

Everyone has an opinion. Few actually have standing.

I like Trump's idea, stop letting Islamists into the country until terrorism is stopped. As far as criticism, we all have a right to criticize and take action against any group that intents to harm or kill us. There are no Christians blowing up restaurants with innocent people in them. There are no Hells Angels blowing up innocent people either. All acts of terror are done by Islam.

But, I do get your point. Criticizing is pointless often, and action needs to be taken against evil.

[palani]

we all have a right to criticize and take action against any group that intents to harm or kill us.
Preemptive strike? Like Japan did on Honolulu?


All acts of terror are done by Islam.
If that is how you choose to define terror. This is somewhat akin to what the greenies have done to define global warming .... all global warming has human causes... But ... But ... But ... What if there is no global warming? What if we are on the cusp of an ice age?

The answer could be that global warming also includes global cooling. We just change the definition a bit.

[Hitch]

Preemptive strike? Like Japan did on Honolulu?.

No, nothing violent. As I posted...I like Trump's idea. Just don't let them into the country. There's nothing violent or oppressive about that. Do you have the right to say no to someone who wants to enter your house? I sure do.

[palani]

I like Trump's idea. Just don't let them into the country.
Unfortunately the U.S. has chosen the U.N. to spearhead global governance. One of the U.N. 's stated policies under the guise of human rights is open borders.


Do you have the right to say no to someone who wants to enter your house? I sure do.
I prefer to offer the hospitality of the manor to anyone visiting. Care to break bread? We are serving BLTs tomorrow.

Now if you choose to not participate in my hospitality I simply show you the shortest path to the door. And your exiting the manor is your decision rather than mine.

Being forced into a court of Sharia Law?

Why not come dressed in bacon?

https://bacontoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/bacon-clothing.jpg

[Dogman]

We are serving BLTs tomorrow.

Now if you choose to not participate in my hospitality I simply show you the shortest path to the door. And your exiting the manor is your decision rather than mine.


HeHe..

Bacon test !


;D

[Hitch]

I prefer to offer the hospitality of the manor to anyone visiting. Care to break bread? We are serving BLTs tomorrow.

I will share the bread, but no bacon. I will be bringing my 14 year old wife. Don't worry, she will be wearing a full burka and if she says anything to you, I'll beat her up in front of you and your family. Also, any women not fully covered I think it's fair game for me to go around and grope them. Thanks for your hospitality. I'm glad my religion is accepted into your home. :)

BTW, we don't even like you and your family, we just want to come inside and get some free stuff.

[palani]

I will share the bread, but no bacon.
I bake my bread with bacon grease.


I will be bringing my 14 year old wife.
Good. Maybe I can teach her my bacon-bread recipe.

[Hitch]

I bake my bread with bacon grease.


Good. Maybe I can teach her my bacon-bread recipe.

Sounds good, I'll bring the pork ribs. Falling off the bone good. :)

[crimethink]

The only Solution - a "final" one, I may say - is to deal with the Jews who are:

1) behind letting Turd World scum, including Muslims, into the United States and Europe;

2) behind the concept of "thought crime" ("hate crimes" including "hate speech").

Neutralize the Jews and their malevolent influence on society, and the above problems, as well as most problems, end or diminish quickly.

Allow the Jews to keep running our societies - including supporting Shabbos Goyim like Trump to "lead" us - and not a damn thing will change for the authentic better.

[singular_me]

thank you for confirming my posting

spiritual beliefs should never be a group think and when so thats the only path toward enlightenment. in my view there is only ONE and sole knowledge, corrupted by all leaders of all faiths. And it is because people regard it as a group think, it has gone from bad to worse.

and obviously, darling, you choose to divert the topic when I am referring to the church dictatorship from dark-ages til mid renaissance. All religions must embrace fundamentalism at some point to continue to thrive. This is the same 5000 years old pattern.

Thanks to islam today for reviving christian fundamentalism by the same token.

we are freakin' doomed






Don't fall for Jew history. The crusades was an attempt to stop Islam from taking Europe, and to retake some of the lands stolen from Christianity by Islam. Without them you'ld be Muslim today (in the hypothetical case you'ld still exist). But continue to beat the drum on your antichrist-crusade. The fact that your father came from and took you to a Christian country has allowed you the freedom to think whatever you want.

[crimethink]

Thanks to islam today for reviving christian fundamentalism by the same token.

"Christian" Fundamentalism is Judaism with lip-service to Christ. Judeo-"Christianity."

[palani]

I'll bring the pork ribs.
Only point is you can get what you want by being 'in your face' and antagonistic or you can let immigrants of any sort know what you expect of them and ask them if they are going to comply with your rules. The first method (in your face) is unresistible force meeting immovable wall. The second method is contract with a penalty clause that attaches.

The purpose of bacon is to determine how hard corp the gent is.

[Hitch]

Only point is you can get what you want by being 'in your face' and antagonistic or you can let immigrants of any sort know what you expect of them and ask them if they are going to comply with your rules. The first method (in your face) is unresistible force meeting immovable wall. The second method is contract with a penalty clause that attaches.

The purpose of bacon is to determine how hard corp the gent is.

I do agree with you, but also see a third method. Be the immovable wall yourself, and just don't let them in. It's not violent, it's not even rude. By doing that, it frees up time to take care of other people actually in the house, fellow Americans, that matter. Just don't let them in, they don't like us, they will never respect us anyway...

[palani]

Be the immovable wall yourself

Religion is not a rational reason to bar anyone. That punishes the 99% who simply want to live without imposing their values.

Consider Canada. Evidently if you have ever been convicted of drunk driving Canada will not allow you to enter ... even as a passenger ... even if you never plan on taking hold of a steering wheel. This places someone who made a mistake once into a category on a par with child molesters.

[Hitch]

Religion is not a rational reason to bar anyone.

It's protecting freedom of Religion, and all our freedoms, is my concern. Islam doesn't allow or respect 'freedom of religion'. Islam is a Theocracy. Freedoms are sacrificed in the name of religion.

That's fine for them, as long as they stay where they are. If mixed in with all other Religions, they become the oppressors. In Saudi Arabia, you can't even become a citizen if you are a Christian, or any other religion, other than Islam. Where is their tolerance? Non existent.

[palani]

In Saudi Arabia, you can't even become a citizen if you are a Christian, or any other religion, other than Islam. Where is their tolerance? Non existent.
Oh well, Saudi Arabia substitutes light crude oil for control. As soon as they run out of oil they will run out of control.

Countries may form based upon theology or ideology. The U.S. was formed of white males. Later women and coloreds applied for franchise.

If you want to read a good book read Heinleins' Starship Troopers. The book is much more advanced than they made the movie. In this (fictional) society only veterans had the franchise to control the political process. To me this makes much more sense than the committee confusion we have currently.

[Dogman]

Oh well, Saudi Arabia substitutes light crude oil for control. As soon as they run out of oil they will run out of control.

Countries may form based upon theology or ideology. The U.S. was formed of white males. Later women and coloreds applied for franchise.

If you want to read a good book read Heinleins' Starship Troopers. The book is much more advanced than they made the movie. In this (fictional) society only veterans had the franchise to control the political process. To me this makes much more sense than the committee confusion we have currently.

Those camel drivers (some) I think can see the end of their oil.

Interesting times !

[Hitch]

Oh well, Saudi Arabia substitutes light crude oil for control. As soon as they run out of oil they will run out of control.

OK, so Saudi is Islam. Islam is Saudi. They will never lose control as long Islam continues to infiltrate other countries "ours" and oppress other religions.

It's not about oil, it's about control. Saudi has complete control over Saudi. They want complete control over us. They use "religion" to try and accomplish that. It's a simple as that.

If you want to read a book for answers. Read the Quran. It's all in there. The more I read though, the more I learn, the less I want to know though. I'd think I'd rather be ignorant at this point. The writing is clearly on the wall for the future of Christians, and our free nation.

[palani]

They will never lose control as long Islam continues to infiltrate other countries "ours" and oppress other religions.

I could be wrong but ... in computers have you ever heard of the concept of a 'trojan horse'? Except with countries you invite their citizens into yours, infect them with a virus (new ideas?), a certain percentage return to their state of origin and infect other citizens.

The battle is between ideas. It is impossible for 'them' to infiltrate us without opening up channels to funnel these new ideas through.

I expect what I describe to be a slow process and both sides get to exchange ideas so the original planners are subject to having their plans de-railed.

[Dogman]

I could be wrong but ... in computers have you ever heard of the concept of a 'trojan horse'? Except with countries you invite their citizens into yours, infect them with a virus (new ideas?), a certain percentage return to their state of origin and infect other citizens.

The battle is between ideas. It is impossible for 'them' to infiltrate us without opening up channels to funnel these new ideas through.

I expect what I describe to be a slow process and both sides get to exchange ideas so the original planners are subject to having their plans de-railed.

Happens now!

Truth !

It's called America and American ways!

But some want to end that and turn inward !

Sad

[Neuro]

thank you for confirming my posting

spiritual beliefs should never be a group think and when so thats the only path toward enlightenment. in my view there is only ONE and sole knowledge, corrupted by all leaders of all faiths. And it is because people regard it as a group think, it has gone from bad to worse.

and obviously, darling, you choose to divert the topic when I am referring to the church dictatorship from dark-ages til mid renaissance. All religions must embrace fundamentalism at some point to continue to thrive. This is the same 5000 years old pattern.

Well, darling, if you are referring to THAT, it certainly would help if you actually spelled out that in actual words in your posts. Unless you clearly define the topic you bring out for discussion, it is more than a bit devious to accuse someone of diversion in your retrospective definition of it.

Still, accusing me of diversion? LOL! You are the goddess of diversion. This is the only thing you do when losing your arguments, avoidance of owing up to a messed up mind.

{@@,&)

[Norweger]

Islam doesn't allow or respect 'freedom of religion'.

Except it does which is why there are christians all over the middle-east, but i take it you have seen some ISIS hollywood production that has led you to believe otherwise.

[Norweger]

We Aryan Christian Goyim want to flush all three right down the shitter.

You Aryan Christian Cattle? Even refering to yourself as one.. not bad.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/A8N2W74AULc/hqdefault.jpg

I suspect when you have done the elimination process, judging by how you seem to argue with everyone on this forum, you would be the only "Aryan Christian Goyim" left.

[Norweger]

They stone women to death for any alleged infidelity. Men can physically abuse their wives under Islam. They can rape, behead, and murder others under Islam.

We can't criticize that? Fuck that. To hell with those bastards trying to harm others.

Oy vey they are shooting 9000 rockets daily from Gaza into Israel!!1 This has to stop!!!11 You see? Israel greatest ally! Islam bad!

[Twisted Titan]

Except it does which is why there are christians all over the middle-east, but i take it you have seen some ISIS hollywood production that has led you to believe otherwise.







Can you please quote me the verse out of the noble koran were your statement comes from?


And please do not quote me anything from the meccan verses ...when muhammad was a minority because any practicing muslim worth his salt knows those verses were abbrogated.


Quote me something from when he was in Medina ...when he gained the upper hand those tolerant verses turned on a dime.


But please be so kind as to back up that bold state ment with a verse from the Medina chapters


Thanking you in advance my brother.

Salam

[Neuro]

the church dictatorship from dark-ages til mid renaissance.
I think this is worthy of discussion. Yes the Catholic Church acted like a world government until reformation movements in Northern Europe which started in early 1500's and was not completed until end of 1600's.

It was responsible for Health care, Education, Social security, Justice, everything that the national state that only really started forming in connection with the reformation, prior to that there really wasn't much of worldly powers, the principalities of Europe were generally very weak, the nobility was just mere vassals of the church. I believe the reformation was more of the kings of Northern Europe rebelling against Rome, than a popular uprising. Henry VIII is obviously a good example. And to strengthen the national bond they had bibles translated and printed in their nations language.

Of course I agree with you that the church shouldn't be a world power, a Caesar! But I think there is a natural explanation for this, as it was pretty much the only uniting force remaining after the fall of the Roman Empire, and as the sole world power it couldn't let its hegemony be challenged by competing religions, the reason was not so much they feared that souls were to be lost, but that their own power would decrease. You pretty much had a continuous war raging between 1500-1700 in Europe due to this fear of loss of power.

[Norweger]

Can you please quote me the verse out of the noble koran were your statement comes from?


And please do not quote me anything from the meccan verses ...when muhammad was a minority because any practicing muslim worth his salt knows those verses were abbrogated.


Quote me something from when he was in Medina ...when he gained the upper hand those tolerant verses turned on a dime.


But please be so kind as to back up that bold state ment with a verse from the Medina chapters


Thanking you in advance my brother.

Salam

You want a source from the Quran that there are christians in the middle-east? Are you drunk?

[Dogman]

You want a source from the Quran that there are christians in the middle-east? Are you drunk?

You are right!

Christianity was first then ? 700ad or so Mohammed and the Muslim Faith rooted!

Both Faith's lived side by side for hundreds of years in peace together!


Then someone got greedy !

But as in the past and to this day, some things never change!

;D

[Hitch]

You want a source from the Quran that there are christians in the middle-east? Are you drunk?

Show me one Christian "Citizen" in Saudi Arabia?

Christians in the middle east are suppressed. Less than citizens. Islam places them there.

[Hitch]

Can you please quote me the verse out of the noble koran were your statement comes from?

Bump this question back up to the top.

[Neuro]

Show me one Christian "Citizen" in Saudi Arabia?

Christians in the middle east are suppressed. Less than citizens. Islam places them there.

True I did this test check your priviledge index, or something like that a couple of years ago on here, as an immigrant Christian manual worker in the Middle East I tested at -410, just a bit over LGBTQ child slave labor in a Bangladeshi Santa Grotto.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?82174-Hilarious-Website-checkmyprivilege-com&highlight=Check+privilege+test

[Norweger]

Bump this question back up to the top.

You want a question related to demographics answered with a quranic verse? You don't see how extremely idiotic such a question is? It would be more apropriate to ask you where the legitimacy for supposedly killing christians come from since that clearly is your (false) belief, but that would be pointless since the only thing if anything that would be presented are things taken out of context found on zionist blogs.

[Twisted Titan]

You want a question related to demographics answered with a quranic verse? You don't see how extremely idiotic such a question is? It would be more apropriate to ask you where the legitimacy for supposedly killing christians come from since that clearly is your (false) belief, but that would be pointless since the only thing if anything that would be presented are things taken out of context found on zionist blogs.


Lets try and following the bouncing ball shall we?

Brother Hicth said Islam dosent respect other religions

You made the claim it does and the evidence you cited was that there are christians pockets all throughout the muslim world.

I came in and asked please cite a koranic verse where it is said you are to respect other religions but i wanted to make sure you dont quote a old verse that is no longer in effect hence i said it must be from the medina verses

To which you realized THERE IS NO SUCH VERSE so you conviently pivioted the conversation to question about demographics.


Did i miss anything?

[Twisted Titan]

And for futher edification should you be in ear shot of Muslim spouting off this verseyou can quickly correct him as this is one other their favorites.






https://wikiislam.net/wiki/To_You_Your_Religion_and_To_Me_Mine

To You Your Religion and To Me Mine (Qur'an 109:1-6)

Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

[Twisted Titan]

Always remeber if a muslim is quoting something peaceful from the koran
That revelation came down when muhammed was in mecca

If the verse is violent
That revelation came down when he was in medina.


And the Medina revelations are what musilms are commanded to follow if the do not they considered to be a apostate or hypocrite and the penalties are most severe and majority of the time a capital offense.

[crimethink]

I suspect when you have done the elimination process, judging by how you seem to argue with everyone on this forum, you would be the only "Aryan Christian Goyim" left.

The Ambassador of Taqiyya for the Pedophile "Prophet" Speaks!

[crimethink]

Always remeber if a muslim is quoting something peaceful from the koran
That revelation came down when muhammed was in mecca

If the verse is violent
That revelation came down when he was in medina.

Wrong.

If a Muslim is "quoting" something peaceful about non-Muslims, he is practicing Taqiyya (ritual, permitted lying for the protection of Islam).

[Norweger]

Lets try and following the bouncing ball shall we?

Brother Hicth said Islam dosent respect other religions

You made the claim it does and the evidence you cited was that there are christians pockets all throughout the muslim world.

I came in and asked please cite a koranic verse where it is said you are to respect other religions but i wanted to make sure you dont quote a old verse that is no longer in effect hence i said it must be from the medina verses

To which you realized THERE IS NO SUCH VERSE so you conviently pivioted the conversation to question about demographics.


Did i miss anything?

No, i didnt even bother looking for any sources since i consider the fact that there are christians living in the middle-eastern muslim countries as proof that religious minorities are being accepted. If they are not, then why are they there? When Saladin took over Jerusalem he left the churches intact. It is better if you provide some sort of evidence that muslims are allowed to persecute christians.

Go fetch.

[Norweger]

Wrong.

If a Muslim is "quoting" something peaceful about non-Muslims, he is practicing Taqiyya (ritual, permitted lying for the protection of Islam).

Hehe We are there again. Gee, did you read this on some sort of weeaboo imageboard? Maybe on a zionist blog?

[Norweger]

And for futher edification should you be in ear shot of Muslim spouting off this verseyou can quickly correct him as this is one other their favorites.






https://wikiislam.net/wiki/To_You_Your_Religion_and_To_Me_Mine

To You Your Religion and To Me Mine (Qur'an 109:1-6)

Say: O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship;
Nor worship ye that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

What a horrible thing to say to the pagans and the disbelievers.

It is clear to me that your motivation in this thread is based on your own insecurities about your religion, especially considering the fact that this thread is just a copypaste of jewish crap you didnt even bother to verify before posting it. You just want some reason, any reason to bash Islam and even made yourself the lapdopg of the jews in the process. One would expect more from somebody who has been on this forum since the begining.

[Twisted Titan]

It is better if you provide some sort of evidence that muslims are allowed to persecute christians.

Go fetch.


Woof! Woof! Woof!

Lets see what bones i can dig up in the Islamic grave yard okay?

I will be right back in a jiffy !!!

Woof! Woof! Woof!



Surrah 9:29

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled


So according to this verse you are to FIGHT THEM until they are killed or beaten or they pay the jizayah which is like "protection money" you pay to the local mob so you can keep sucking oxygen without a pair of broken legs.


Also be careful about alluding to me as i were some sort of animal who fetches (ie a dog)

A dog is MORE POWERFUL Then your prophet.

You do remember the story where mumhammed was waiting for jabriell to bring a revelation at a specfic time and he couldnt do it.

Only later on when muhamed asked why he missed "the appointment" it was because a dog ( a black one at that ) was found to be under his bed.

That is why to this day any practicing muslim is not allowed to own a dog

[Twisted Titan]

What a horrible thing to say to the pagans and the disbelievers.

It is clear to me that your motivation in this thread is based on your own insecurities about your religion, especially considering the fact that this thread is just a copypaste of jewish crap you didnt even bother to verify before posting it. You just want some reason, any reason to bash Islam and even made yourself the lapdopg of the jews in the process. One would expect more from somebody who has been on this forum since the begining.


No.....

Like i said before i just wanted to document a particular example of how a country that ends up hosting muslims ends up getting peresucuted by them with jail if they say something the muslim deems offensive.


I do not bash islam. What i do is just point out the gross contracdiction in your text book and ask you to reconcile them to which you cannot so you pivot away and talk about conjecture and this is evidenced by the fact you have not be able to provide a single koranic verse to refute my claims.


The peolple you refer to as jews are actually askenazi Khazars they are not the people of the book they are imposters and The Father is going to deal with them on the last day.


As odd as this sounds i dont have beef with you.....i actually care about you....i care enough to present you with solid proofs that islam cannot be true because it cannot stand on its own.

The Turat ( Torah)
The Ingeel ( Gospel)
The Zabul ( The Psalms)

Those books are True and that is why Mumhammed was COMMANDED to refer to them if there was something he was not clear on ( surrah 9.29)

[Joshua01]

What a horrible thing to say to the pagans and the disbelievers.

It is clear to me that your motivation in this thread is based on your own insecurities about your religion, especially considering the fact that this thread is just a copypaste of jewish crap you didnt even bother to verify before posting it. You just want some reason, any reason to bash Islam and even made yourself the lapdopg of the jews in the process. One would expect more from somebody who has been on this forum since the begining.


Religion, any religion, is a fairytale started eons ago for the purpose of controlling the masses and obtaining wealth and power by using the myths and stories of the day to craft some unseen God and strike fear into the hearts of the people who 'worship' them should they 'stray'.


It's all bullshit!!!

[Twisted Titan]

Psalm 14(KJV)


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[Joshua01]

Psalm 14(KJV)


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
See? There they go! I don't accept what I'm being told so I'm filthy and I don't do anything good and I'm even corrupt! Give me a break!!! I haven't killed or hurt anyone and am a loving and caring husband father and grandfather. That seems to count for nothing unless you're all in on some specific God.

Who writes this drivel???

Every religion preaches one true God but they are all different. Moreover; if I, as an individual, don't worship a particular God I'm doomed. Decisions decisions....is there no way to save my soul. I'm screwed no matter which God I choose.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's religion nor am I trying to say others should have the same viewpoints that I do. I'm simply expressing my opinion, while I'm still able to.

[Dogman]

Well spoken !

Kudos!

[Horn]

If you want to read a good book read Heinleins' Starship Troopers. The book is much more advanced than they made the movie. In this (fictional) society only veterans had the franchise to control the political process. To me this makes much more sense than the committee confusion we have currently.

Veterans of Zionist Bankers franchise is currently the committee operating, they sew the seeds of confusion so nobody notices them.

You can't be elected or citizen without first seeking a loan (mission-march).

God or Faith does not really enter into the equation, only faith in real estate inflation or Holy Land.

They are The Dirt Merchants.

[Horn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxiMrvDbq3s

[Twisted Titan]

See? There they go! I don't accept what I'm being told so I'm filthy and I don't do anything good and I'm even corrupt! Give me a break!!! I haven't killed or hurt anyone and am a loving and caring husband father and grandfather. That seems to count for nothing unless you're all in on some specific God.








Here is a few hard truths that took a while to seep into my fogged brain but after i did alot of things got easier for me.

There is a creator ....because we didnt come from nothing

That creator has a agenda

That creator gave us ( his creations) rules statues and commandments to follow because that is his perogative

That creator didnt ask for your opinion,feelings or emotions about anything concerning His agenda

That creator also gave you free will to reject His agenda

That creator warns you about the consequences of rebellion against His Agenda

That creator also gives His Word that if you submit yourself to His Agenda you will be very Happy

[Twisted Titan]

Every religion preaches one true God but they are all different. Moreover; if I, as an individual, don't worship a particular God I'm doomed. Decisions decisions....is there no way to save my soul. I'm screwed no matter which God I choose.

.


Thats the thing I have been making a study of all the major religions

Hinduism
Islam
Wiccan
Judaisim
Christianity
Catholisism
Voodoo
Buddahism


Several of them i have practiced for years so i am qualifed to speak on them

each of them all failed because there is only One Person that made The Claim I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life

Only one Person said Believe on me Because you have no ability to fix your condition
No amount of " good works" or "right thinking" is going to get you out of that place.

All the others convince you that there is something that you are in control of that can help you.
Its a myth.

You need Help and there is only one who can Help

[Horn]

You need Help and there is only one who can Help

Western religion's main theme, a necessity for third party intervention/security.

Enlightenment is only made available through loan, the community that church builds is many times used exclusively and only for that reason. Third party arbiter to Better business babies.

It has trained/taught Eastern Religions to seek at this point.

[crimethink]

Hehe We are there again. Gee, did you read this on some sort of weeaboo imageboard? Maybe on a zionist blog?

The lying Mooslim is lying about the fact he is allowed to lie.

Convolution.

[crimethink]

It is better if you provide some sort of evidence that muslims are allowed to persecute christians.

True or false: I may send New Testaments to Saudi Arabia.

True or false: I may preach from the New Testament in Saudi Arabia.

True or false: I may visit Mecca.

[crimethink]

copypaste of jewish crap

Islam is "copypaste of Jewish crap."

Your Pedophile "Prophet" lifted plenty from the Talmud, and combined it with his own sexual deviancy, to create the Quran.

[Twisted Titan]

Western religion's main theme, a necessity for third party intervention/security.



Because man with his western mindset and correct thinking has allowed us to ascend to the very heights of morality correct?

[Horn]

Because man with his western mindset and correct thinking has allowed us to ascend to the very heights of morality correct?

Europeans have apparently corned the market on collective morality.

[Hitch]

True or false: I may send New Testaments to Saudi Arabia.

True or false: I may preach from the New Testament in Saudi Arabia.

True or false: I may visit Mecca.

You hit that one out of the park, Crimethink. This is where we are seeing bad behavior being excused under the guise of religion. In Saudi, citizens voluntarily give up their personal freedoms for the theocracy, for Islam. In America, we believe all freedoms, while doing so in peace, can be free from persecution.

This is what our main problem is. All the liberals want Islam to melt right into our melting pot of a society. It doesn't work with Islam, they don't melt. They remain outsiders who dislike and would do anything, including harm innocent people, to push their agenda. They absolutely do not believe in religious freedoms. They give up their own freedoms, so in their minds, we all should. Just doesn't mix. I still say live and let live, but to accomplish that, Islam needs to stay in Islamic countries.

[Neuro]

‘Radicalized’ 12yo boy tried to blow up German Christmas market
https://www.rt.com/news/370555-boy-bomb-christmas-market/

Had nothing to do with Islam as usual. He might as well have been a Christian or Buddhist boy, understand that! [sarc]

[Horn]

They absolutely do not believe in religious freedoms.

Israel doesn't either, but we support and love them until no end.

[Twisted Titan]

Israel doesn't either, but we support and love them until no end.

Nobody is excusing Israhells behavior....and eventually they will be dealt with.

As a matter of fact.

Israhell is the main reason why the religion is spreading so rapidly

Ask babera spector

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85BKDj_1vVU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[midnight rambler]

I note that Taoism is missing from your list so apparently you still have some studying to do.


Thats the thing I have been making a study of all the major religions

Hinduism
Islam
Wiccan
Judaisim
Christianity
Catholisism
Voodoo
Buddahism


Several of them i have practiced for years so i am qualifed to speak on them

each of them all failed because there is only One Person that made The Claim I Am The Way, The Truth and The Life

Only one Person said Believe on me Because you have no ability to fix your condition
No amount of " good works" or "right thinking" is going to get you out of that place.

All the others convince you that there is something that you are in control of that can help you.
Its a myth.

You need Help and there is only one who can Help

[Twisted Titan]

I look at Toaism and Buddisim in the same umbrella as a broad generalization

Because the dont have any defination of sin.
Just right thinking
And wrong thinking
And you through enough meditation and chants you can divest of worldly desires

[crimethink]

I note that Taoism is missing from your list so apparently you still have some studying to do.

Confucianism, Zoroastrianism, Asatru, Druidism, and Romuva, too.

"Wicca" is not a religion but a poop culture invention concocted from Aleister Crowley's pure Satanism.

[crimethink]

I look at Toaism and Buddisim in the same umbrella as a broad generalization

Because the dont have any defination of sin.
Just right thinking
And wrong thinking
And you through enough meditation and chants you can divest of worldly desires

Taoism and Buddhism each deserve to be studied on their own. Both do have a definition of "sin," and Buddhism, in particular, is the closest to Christianity in teaching "godly living." There's a reason Buddhist/Taoist communities do not have the degeneracy seen in outright pagan societies.

Buddhism is, in many ways, Christianity without Christ. A huge and unacceptable deficit, yes, but consider how most Buddhists live the Second Great Commandment - love one's neighbor as themselves - far more readily than most "Christians" today. The local Buddhist monastery sent a group of their kids to "honor elders" at my Mom's apartment community. Far more Christ-like than most of the youth from churches.

Siddhartha never wanted to be worshiped.

I should also add some more about Zoraoastrianism. The religion of the ancient "Iranians" (Iran means Aryan), based on the teachings of Zoroaster. Many teachings identical to Christianity. In fact, consider the Three Magi who came to worship the Christ. Magi were priests of the Zoroastrian community in Iran/Persia. God recognized their value and guided them to the First Advent of the World's Redeemer. The Magi believed Christ was their "Saoshyant," the final redeemer of the world, born of a virgin, who would lead humanity in the final assault on lies.

Of course, Zoroastrianism was almost completely wiped out by the Satanic sewage known as Islam.

[midnight rambler]

Confucianism, Zoroastrianism, Asatru, Druidism, and Romuva, too.

"Wicca" is not a religion but a poop culture invention concocted from Aleister Crowley's pure Satanism.

Oh, but Wicca is 'white witchcraft', so there's a distinction. lol

[crimethink]

Oh, but Wicca is 'white witchcraft', so there's a distinction. lol

I first encountered the obscene modern practices of the occult from a "Wiccan" who teaches classes about "painting" with the "artist's" monthly cycle "paint."

[Twisted Titan]

Direct quote from Anton Lavey (founder of the church of Satan) in "The Satanic Bible": "There is no difference between "white" and "black" magic, except in the smug hypocrisy, guilt-ridden righteousness and self-deceit of the "white" magician himself."






Oh, but Wicca is 'white witchcraft', so there's a distinction. lol

[Neuro]

No, i didnt even bother looking for any sources since i consider the fact that there are christians living in the middle-eastern muslim countries as proof that religious minorities are being accepted. If they are not, then why are they there? When Saladin took over Jerusalem he left the churches intact. It is better if you provide some sort of evidence that muslims are allowed to persecute christians.

Go fetch.

So you consider demographics more important than the input of the Koran in predominantly Muslim societies, in the case of treatment of Christians. What kind of Muslim are you actually? What does your religion tell you how to treat those that doesn't share your faith? Saladin wasn't a prophet, was he?

[singular_me]

hahahahah... we are DOOMED.

Just imgine anybody from another faith thinking the way that bible followers do. I am holier than thou...

until immutable laws, cosmic law humans cannot alter by man, are learned and processed, all faith followers will fall into the SAME hole


https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fiwanticewater.files.wordpress.com %2F2013%2F08%2Ffunny-gifs-wake-up-lemming-sheeple.gif&f=1


One submits to these Laws (to God) or does not. Only the CARE principle binds all the 7 Laws. And this is why Jesus preached about love. You CARE or not.

Creation is CARE.

one thing is certain: this thread explores the laws of judgment day

[Twisted Titan]

Just imgine anybody from another faith thinking the way that bible followers do. I am holier than thou...




Im not holier then you.....im am actually in the same position as you.

I just had enough sense to realize i am no condition to save myself and The One who is able to save did so.

[Twisted Titan]

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fiwanticewater.files.wordpress.com %2F2013%2F08%2Ffunny-gifs-wake-up-lemming-sheeple.gif&f=1






That is a very accurate gif......
We are all running headlong into the pit
That is exactly what leaning to our own understanding yeilds
To conculde otherwise is to appeal to your own vanity and pride.
I have gotten smart enough to realize i dont know what a should
And because i swallowed my pride a way of escape has been made availble.
So yes we are all heading into that pit
But only a small remenant sees the single lifeline dangling above.

Thats what im reaching for.....what about you?