Multi-level Marketing scams MLM

[Dachsie]

Here is a two minute trailer for a new full lenth film, Betting On Zero, that is about to come out about MLM schemes,

https://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/betting-on-zero/?utm_source=Invitation+to+Betting+on+Zero&utm_campaign=Invitation+to+Betting+on+Zero&utm_medium=email

Hope that link works.

focused mainly on HerbalLife in the film, but applies universally to all MLMs. Right now I am thinking about those supplements sold by Ben Fuchs and that Tangy Tangerine stuff, which curiously I don't hear anything about much anymore, and essential oils selling, which seems like another scam.

IMO, ANY and ALL PRODUCTS that are sold via this multi level method are a ripoff of the expendable people at the bottom by the people at the top. The products become superfluous and you won't really find a generally good product for a reasonable price sold this way. You may find a few high quality products but sold at exorbitant prices, and you will find a sea of low-quality mediocre products that are overpriced. All of the products seem to fall out of the picture, like Tangy Tangerine, after the initial marketing hype. A product has a marketing life but really good products sold at reasonable prices and not sold via MLM stay profitable and on the market for years.

__________
This may open a little discussion in general about pitfalls of MLMs here but maybe everybody here already is wised up on this subject. I just think educating people about this is important because people who are experiencing financial difficulties are the prime targets of this scheme and are the most hurt by being ripped off, and there are more and more people who are in dire financial straights these days.

_______

I remember years ago going to a presentation about some kind of thing sold that way and the guy was a really performer and entertainer and was really able to draw in and play on the worst weaknesses in humans.

I also would comment that in that video trailer of that huge audicence being given the treatment, it looks just like those huge audiences I used to see years ago on the "best preachers" on the Trinity Broadcasting Network years ago when I had cable and watched TV.

The speech is the same kind of psychological manipulation that Alex Jones and Dr. Group often employ about their super products.

[mamboni]

IMHO Tangy Tangerine and Youngevity products are top shelf and excellent. Dr. Joel Wallach is in my opinion the greatest living naturopathic physician and nutritionist. However, Youngevity is structured as MLM. I buy their products but do not participate as a dealer or MLM. Nevertheless, the formulations are extremely well balanced and complete. They are pricey but you get what you pay for. Compared to what we spend on insurances, the cost of supplementation is trivial and the price of not supplementing can be very high indeed.

[Dachsie]

Thank you for your comments, mamboni.

I definitely think supplementation is important and I take several. I know quality is important but I just think there are powdered drink supplements that are of equal quality and still priced considerably less. I personally do not like the idea of swigging on a fruit flavored drink throughout the day. In fact, I have trained myself to almost only drink water and milk. I have to drink a milk smoothie drink most mornings in order to wash down about 35 pills and am trying to get number of pills down to ones I really feel I am getting noticeable help from.

Robert Fitzpatrick who runs the Pyramid Alerts and
FalseProfits.com websites and has done many years of research and work on pyramind MLM sent me this in an email when I asked him about Youngevity...

"Thanks so much for your note. I am very happy some of our materials were useful to you.

Regarding Youngevity… This is just another of almost countless schemes based on (1) some health product not available in stores and which is classified as a food supplement so it is not regulated or tested by the Food and Drug Administration (2) joining, paying a fee, buying the product, and also paying monthly fees for internet services to track the program (3) recruiting others to do the same (4) a pyramid pay plan with a formula that ends up transferring the money from newest recruits to the top of the pyramid (the guys that founded the scheme).

Nothing new or different here. It may be that this one is being touted by people you rely on or trust. Sadly, this is true for most such schemes. They are very profitable for people at the top, but ruinous for all others, a money trap.

For more information on how to understand this and all other similar schemes, I suggest you review the resources, "What About This One?""


there is a big discussion on Amazon, a place I do patronize or go to anymore, about Tangy Tangerine. TT has some elements in it that sound a lot like radioactive isotopes and "rare earth" stuff.

I think Ben Fuchs conveys some very good health information and it was his advice to try taking glutamine after every meal that really helped me clear up my leaky gut / hives problem with almost all but a few foods.

I think Dr. Wallach, a vet and nutrional expert, employs snake oil sales tactics. There is a video on YT where he is speaking to a big gathering of black people at their big church and he is really working that audience, telling them to be sure to eat six eggs a day and making sure to tell them how Youngevity supplements really rev up their sex lives. When Ben Fuchs makes visits to my town, he always has his presentations at some large dispensationalist churches.

Also, again it looks to me like Dr. Wallach and Dr. Glidden and a whole bunch of the GCNlive hosts who were heavily promoting Youngevity are now off the scene or just having their own line of supplements, like Alex Jones, that they sell directly theirselves.

[mamboni]

Thank you for your comments, mamboni.

I definitely think supplementation is important and I take several. I know quality is important but I just think there are powdered drink supplements that are of equal quality and still priced considerably less. I personally do not like the idea of swigging on a fruit flavored drink throughout the day. In fact, I have trained myself to almost only drink water and milk. I have to drink a milk smoothie drink most mornings in order to wash down about 35 pills and am trying to get number of pills down to ones I really feel I am getting noticeable help from.

Robert Fitzpatrick who runs the Pyramid Alerts and
FalseProfits.com websites and has done many years of research and work on pyramind MLM sent me this in an email when I asked him about Youngevity...

"Thanks so much for your note. I am very happy some of our materials were useful to you.

Regarding Youngevity… This is just another of almost countless schemes based on (1) some health product not available in stores and which is classified as a food supplement so it is not regulated or tested by the Food and Drug Administration (2) joining, paying a fee, buying the product, and also paying monthly fees for internet services to track the program (3) recruiting others to do the same (4) a pyramid pay plan with a formula that ends up transferring the money from newest recruits to the top of the pyramid (the guys that founded the scheme).

Nothing new or different here. It may be that this one is being touted by people you rely on or trust. Sadly, this is true for most such schemes. They are very profitable for people at the top, but ruinous for all others, a money trap.

For more information on how to understand this and all other similar schemes, I suggest you review the resources, "What About This One?""


there is a big discussion on Amazon, a place I do patronize or go to anymore, about Tangy Tangerine. TT has some elements in it that sound a lot like radioactive isotopes and "rare earth" stuff.

I think Ben Fuchs conveys some very good health information and it was his advice to try taking glutamine after every meal that really helped me clear up my leaky gut / hives problem with almost all but a few foods.

I think Dr. Wallach, a vet and nutrional expert, employs snake oil sales tactics. There is a video on YT where he is speaking to a big gathering of black people at their big church and he is really working that audience, telling them to be sure to eat six eggs a day and making sure to tell them how Youngevity supplements really rev up their sex lives. When Ben Fuchs makes visits to my town, he always has his presentations at some large dispensationalist churches.

Also, again it looks to me like Dr. Wallach and Dr. Glidden and a whole bunch of the GCNlive hosts who were heavily promoting Youngevity are now off the scene or just having their own line of supplements, like Alex Jones, that they sell directly theirselves.MLM is a pyramid scheme of course. Wallach opted for this because it was the quickest and cheapest way to disperse his products to the widest audience. It might not have been the best option. Wallach has separated himself from Youngevity and derives no profits from sales. I for one DO NOT believe that Dr. Wallach is a snake oil saleman in it for profit. And his thesis, that virtually all diseases are secondary to mineral and vitamin deficiencies, is sound and based on far better science than any pharmaceuticals outside of antibiotics. I supplement with the "90 essential nutrients" per Wallach because I believe that he is correct. Howver, I think Dr. Peskin's conclusion that there are only two essential fatty acids, not three as per Wallach, is correct and I don't use Youngevity fatty acids. Rather, I prefer nuts and seeds or Peskin's PEO caps. While I have been supplementing on and off for over 30 years, my personal results using the BTT and Rebound Fx with Fulvic minerals added have been outstanding. I have never been in better health, am on no prescription, have perfect weight and feel very good. My plan is to live to at least 120 years and never need to see a medical doctor.

[Dachsie]

"I supplement with the "90 essential nutrients" per Wallach because I believe that he is correct."

The last time I listened to Dr. Wallach it was about a year ago and it was on one of his regular radio programs but do not know what if any network that is on now. Very surprised he is not with Youngevity anymore. Don't think Dr. Glidden is either. Wonder who is the head of Youngevity now. Maybe Ben Fuchs.

Anyway, he would listen to the caller's health complaint / symptoms and start "prescribing" not only the "mighty 90" but one expensive pack of Youngevity products after another. One day I just wrote down all that he "prescribed" for one caller and then went to his website and priced them and it came to like $85 a month.

When I listened to his smooth sales pitch I almost was tempted to shell out some bucks right then and there for the products, but my state of poverty saved me. I no longer listen to any radio show guests selling any kind of supplements. I have taken in all the knowledge about that I can deal with and do not want to get sucked in to buying anymore items. I have purchased many products and books over the years that I never saw any appreciable help from so all that was a waste of money I cannot afford.

I have been fairly healthy and have not had a cold or the flu for over four years. I am narrowing it down to a smaller number of items and I know which ones I need to make sure I buy highest quality of. Would like some good oil pills but most of ones I can afford come from fish oil from Pacific Fukushima fish. Was going to try to find some good Norwegian krill oil but that's getting close to Chernobyl.

Guess I am getting off topic but supplements and good recommendations would be a good separate thread.

[mamboni]

"I supplement with the "90 essential nutrients" per Wallach because I believe that he is correct."

The last time I listened to Dr. Wallach it was about a year ago and it was on one of his regular radio programs but do not know what if any network that is on now. Very surprised he is not with Youngevity anymore. Don't think Dr. Glidden is either. Wonder who is the head of Youngevity now. Maybe Ben Fuchs.

Anyway, he would listen to the caller's health complaint / symptoms and start "prescribing" not only the "mighty 90" but one expensive pack of Youngevity products after another. One day I just wrote down all that he "prescribed" for one caller and then went to his website and priced them and it came to like $85 a month.

When I listened to his smooth sales pitch I almost was tempted to shell out some bucks right then and there for the products, but my state of poverty saved me. I no longer listen to any radio show guests selling any kind of supplements. I have taken in all the knowledge about that I can deal with and do not want to get sucked in to buying anymore items. I have purchased many products and books over the years that I never saw any appreciable help from so all that was a waste of money I cannot afford.

I have been fairly healthy and have not had a cold or the flu for over four years. I am narrowing it down to a smaller number of items and I know which ones I need to make sure I buy highest quality of. Would like some good oil pills but most of ones I can afford come from fish oil from Pacific Fukushima fish. Was going to try to find some good Norwegian krill oil but that's getting close to Chernobyl.

Guess I am getting off topic but supplements and good recommendations would be a good separate thread.When one's budget is tight supplementation can be challenging. But you must obtain the 60+ essential minerals to hope to achieve optimal health. The most economical means is through a Fulvic minerals concentrate. A very inexpensive and superior source of all B vitamins is Brewer's yeast. Obtain EFAs and fat soluble vitamins from nuts and vegetables. You're done for maybe $40-60 per month.

[steel_ag]

Employees in the US that do not operate a home-based business are committing financial suicide.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9wWk5HaI0BlHSkGGC4V2dw

[Jewboo]

Brewer's yeast does not contain vitamin B12, an essential vitamin found in meat and dairy products.

[Hitch]

I've made some extra coins to add to the prep stash, buying and selling herbalife over the past couple of years. Buy low, sell high, buy low again. It was actually fairly predictable, up until a couple months ago.

The video in the OP makes me want to opt out completely though.

[mamboni]

Brewer's yeast does not contain vitamin B12, an essential vitamin found in meat and dairy products.Oops. That's right. B-12 the only one you have to get from animal products.

[Glass]

some people are natural "sales people" and I don't think it matters what vehicle they use, they will be successful at sales. From there it just comes down to their moral compass. However not everyone is good at sales, not everyone is cut out for it. SO if the product is really the "selling" of the "opportunity" and not so much the selling of the product and you're not good at selling you can be left disappointed and if you have "invested" in a start up kit/product then you might end up worse off than if you didn't get involved.

I've participated in an MLM many eons ago. I still know people I met from those times, some are like me and got other careers underway and others are still doing MLM although not the same ones.

I think the keys to being successful in MLM is being there at the beginning so you advance ahead of everyone else - the pyramid effect AND being a people person. Making people feel important. That really means hitting those ego buttons that boosts peoples confidence so they will do what you need them to. I know a very likeable person who is a real charmer and the ladies all swoon and I mean all swoon. He is very successful for many years. He's actually a nice person and has homed his people skills to the point where he doesn't use the kind of tactics that are often used.

I've also noticed an increase in MLM''s recently. It seems supplements are big. Muscle building type supplements seem to be on a wave at the moment. I tend to steer away from products that can only be obtained through these direct sales systems, food supplements or appliances.

And I've noticed people only seem to hate on Ponzi Scheme MLM's when they collapse, otherwise it seems they are considered quite legit business models.

[Neuro]

Multiple times I have been approached, by these MLM-ers, because of my work as a chiropractor, to sell mattresses, pillows, magnetic devices, supplements, aloe vera-products, usually they come as patients, but they stop being my patients as soon as they realize that I ain't buying their crap, iow become a salesman for their products. Most of them strike me the same way as people who belong to religious cults. They all tell me how these products have helped them immensely with their physical problems, but as you probe them, it is apparent they have pretty much the same issues still as they had prior to starting using the product.

Having said that, in itself it could be a good way of distributing a product, in many ways cheaper, efficient and more penetrating than the traditional, marketing/sales/distribution-channels. However the cult of mammon that seems inherent in all of these sects I find particularly hard to accept.

[Spectrism]

I was involved in Amway years ago. The idea was good. The products were very good. But the prices kept getting ratcheted up so that even with the deepest discount/bonus level, you still were not competitive with store deals. It really came down to the prices not being reasonable. Other than that, I would not say the MLM concept was bad.

[Dachsie]

I personally have never been a MLM type seller of anything and only have made a few purchases of these kind of products and have never been financially ripped off. I did all of my working life get invited to MLM parties for Tupperware, various lines of make up, and copper ware and jewelry. In many of these invitations I felt sort of obligated to attend to keep up good relations with neighbors and coworkers but always personally hated sitting there in a circle playing stupid games or doing other ridiculous activities to pump up the products.

I never will forget one time we sat around and all put on the makeup on ourselves and the seller/host of the party said "This makes you look like a professional" and I said "A professional what?" A couple of attendees/coworkers came up to me separately after the meeting and commended me for saying that.

When I came across PyramidSchemeAlerts website and the writings and good audio visual resources put out by Robert FitzPatrick, they struck a cord of truth and good for the common people. I think in a former life I must have been a bulldog public defender attorney always looking out for justice to the little guy. Been that way since kindergarten.

Suggest everyone tap into the website's free email updates and considerable free resources.

As for quality products. I have found that I have to try different products to find the one that is the best overall value for effectiveness and price. For health supplements, I have found Swansons (very good return policy and free return shipping) and Walmart's online new very wide selection to be the best choice and prices. Walmart delivers in two days for a $35 purchase and no plan to join. I used to order from iherb but they have virtually no customer service and poor return policy. They seem to operate with as a foreign India / China kind of operation. I am very good at doing objective reviews of products and can tell full truth of pros and cons about a product but I never want to take any money or consideration for doing that.

The problem with the supplements that it is just about impossible to tell if something is really working especially if you take a large number of them. In fact, I have found only a very few of them show very real and relatively immediate solution to my symptom and most of the time the item is very low price and not a combination product. Example: potassium for me everyday definitely stops leg and foot cramps. I know I do not get enough natural potassium in my diet because I do not eat much fruits and vegetables.

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At this time in our nation's current dire situation, I hope and pray that each of us are able to help ourselves and others to not get ripped off.
______

https://pyramidschemealert.org/about-2/board-of-directors/robert-fitzpatrick/

"In his books, lectures, websites and publications, Robert FitzPatrick reveals how more than 99% who join pyramid sales schemes lose their money, squander time and resources and, perhaps most sadly, unwittingly recruit their own friends and relatives into the folly. His examination of the structure and tactics of schemes reveals how the line between legitimate sales companies and “business opportunity” recruitment scams is blurring. More than 5 million Americans annually are lured into pyramid sales schemes. Consumer losses exceed $10 billion annually, with many people losing life savings or going further into debt based on the scheme’s hype and false claims."

____________

https://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html

The 10 Big Lies of Multi-Level Marketing

by Robert L. FitzPatrick

Excerpts...

Lie #1: MLM is a business offering better opportunities for making large sums of money than all other conventional business and professional models.

Truth: For almost everyone who invests MLM turns out to be a losing financial proposition. This is not an opinion, but a historical fact.

Lie #2: Network marketing is the most popular and effective new way to bring products to market. Consumers like to buy products on a one-to-one basis in the MLM model.

Truth: If you strip MLM of its hallmark activity of continuously reselling distributorships and examine its foundation, the one-to-one retailing of products to customers, you encounter an unproductive and impractical system of sales upon which the entire structure is supposed to rest. Personal retailing is a thing of the past, not the wave of the future. Retailing directly to friends on a one-to-one basis requires people to drastically change their buying habits. They must restrict their choices, often pay more for goods, buy inconveniently, and awkwardly engage in business transactions with close friends and relatives. The unfeasibility of door-to-door retailing is why MLM is, in reality, a business that just keeps reselling the opportunity to sign up more distributors.

Lie #3: Eventually all products will be sold by MLM, a new form of marketing. Retail stores, shopping malls, catalogues and most forms of advertising will soon be rendered obsolete by MLM.

Truth: MLM is not new. It has been around since the late 1960's. Yet, today it still represents less than one percent of US retail sales.

Lie #4: MLM is a new way of life that offers happiness and fulfillment. It is a means to attain all the good things in life.

Truth: The most prominent motivating appeal of the MLM industry as shown in industry literature and presented at recruitment meetings is the crassest form of materialism. Fortune 100 companies would blush at the excess of promises of wealth and luxury put forth by MLM solicitors. These promises are presented as the ticket to personal fulfillment. MLM's overreaching appeal to wealth and luxury conflicts with most people's true desire for meaningful and fulfilling work in something in which they have special talent or interest. In short, the culture of this business side tracks many people from their personal values and desires to express their unique talents and aspirations.

Lie #5: MLM is a spiritual movement.

Truth: The use of spiritual concepts like prosperity consciousness and creative visualization to promote MLM enrollment, the use of words like 'communion' to describe a sales organization, and claims that MLM is a fulfillment of Christian principles or Scriptural prophecies are great distortions of these spiritual practices. Those who focus their hopes and dreams upon wealth as the answer to their prayers lose sight of genuine spirituality as taught by all the great religions and faiths of humankind. The misuse of these spiritual principles should be a signal that the investment opportunity is deceptive.

Lie #6: Success in MLM is easy. Friends and relatives are the natural prospects. Those who love and support you will become your lifetime customers.

Truth: The commercialization of family and friendship relations or the use of 'warm leads' which is required in the MLM marketing program is a destructive element in the community and very unhealthy for individuals involved. Capitalizing upon family ties and loyalties of friendships in order to build a business can destroy ones social foundation. It places stress on relationships that may never return to their original bases of love, loyalty and support. Beyond its destructive social aspects, experience shows that few people enjoy or appreciate being solicited by friends and relatives to buy products.

Lie #7: You can do MLM in your spare time. As a business, it offers the greatest flexibility and personal freedom of time. A few hours a week can earn a significant supplemental income and may grow to a very large income making other work unnecessary

Truth: decades of experience involving millions of people have proven that making money in MLM requires extraordinary time commitment as well as considerable personal wiliness, persistence and deception. Beyond the sheer hard work and special aptitude required, the business model inherently consumes more areas of ones life and greater segments of time. In MLM, everyone is a prospect. Every waking moment is a potential time for marketing.

Lie #8. MLM is a positive, supportive new business that affirms the human spirit and personal freedom.

Truth: MLM marketing materials reveal that much of the message is fear-driven and based upon deception about income potential. Solicitations frequently include dire predictions about the impending collapse of other forms of distribution, the disintegration or insensitivity of corporate America, and the lack of opportunity in other professions or services.

Lie #9. MLM is the best option for owning your own business and attaining real economic independence.

Truth: MLM is not true self-employment. 'Owning' an MLM distributorship is an illusion. Some MLM companies forbid distributors from carrying additional lines. Most MLM contracts make termination of the distributorship easy and immediate for the company. Short of termination, downlines can be taken away with a variety of means. Participation requires rigid adherence to the 'duplication' model, not independence and individuality. MLM distributors are not entrepreneurs but joiners in a complex hierarchical system over which they have little control.

Lie #10: MLM is not a pyramid scheme because products are sold.

Truth: The sale of products is in no way a protection from anti-pyramid scheme statutes or unfair trade practices set forth in federal and state law. MLMs that sell useful, quality products have been successfully prosecuted under anti-pyramid scheme laws by state and federal officials. MLM is a legal form of business only under certain rigid conditions set forth by the FTC and state Attorneys General. Many MLMs are currently in gross violation of these guidelines and operate only because they have not been prosecuted. Recent court rulings are using a 70% rule to determine an MLM's legality. At least 70% of all goods sold by the MLM company must be purchased by non-distributors. This standard would place most MLM companies outside the law. The largest of all MLMs acknowledges that only 18% of its sales are made to non-distributors.

[crimethink]

some people are natural "sales people" and I don't think it matters what vehicle they use, they will be successful at sales. From there it just comes down to their moral compass. However not everyone is good at sales, not everyone is cut out for it.

Being a good salesman boils down to one thing: being able to gain peoples' confidence.

And the moral compass aspect relates to whether one makes being a good salesman into being a confidence man or confidence artist. Usually shortened to con man or con artist.

[Dachsie]

http://pyramidschemealert.org/resources/PonzisandPyramids.mp3

very interesting one hour audio with Robert FitzPatrick interviewing the author of Merchants of Deception book,


Merchants of Deception: An Insider's Chilling Look at the Worldwide, Multi Billion dollar Conspiracy of lies that is Amway and its Motivational Organizations Paperback – October 23, 2009
by Eric Scheibeler (Author)

Mr. Scheibeler reached a very top "emerald" level of Amway and was in in for 10 years and was "successful" but his conscience got the best of him. Interesting how Amway is a WASPy republican thing, with Newt Gingrich, Oliver North, Ronald Reagan and other "conservatives."

Wallstreet ponzi schemes are not much different from product based mainstreet ponzi schemes. They mentioned Bernie Made Off (I love it!) several times.

(Funny how spell checker here does not recognize a word "ponzi" and only suggests "potion.")

[Spectrism]

Being a good salesman boils down to one thing: being able to gain peoples' confidence.

And the moral compass aspect relates to whether one makes being a good salesman into being a confidence man or confidence artist. Usually shortened to con man or con artist.


Have you ever been in sales?

[crimethink]

Have you ever been in sales?

Yes, and I'm pleased to say I was not a "good" salesman, since I didn't manufacture "need" where there is none. Or sell something to someone that is intentionally not as described. I'm actually something of an anti-salesman; I've been known to get the attention of a huckstered customer in a store and tell them the facts. The good salesman a few minutes previously convinced he just sold garbage like Norton or McAfee at MSRP, now irritated to see the customer walk (armed with the knowledge of Avast! Free I gave them).

[Spectrism]

Yes, and I'm pleased to say I was not a "good" salesman, since I didn't manufacture "need" where there is none. Or sell something to someone that is intentionally not as described. I'm actually something of an anti-salesman; I've been known to get the attention of a huckstered customer in a store and tell them the facts. The good salesman a few minutes previously convinced he just sold garbage like Norton or McAfee at MSRP, now irritated to see the customer walk (armed with the knowledge of Avast! Free I gave them).

Sales sucks if you have a crappy product or work for the wrong company. Having a decent product and knowing that it will make people's lives better makes selling a rewarding profession. Companies that lose sight of that vision and seek to push garbage onto unsuspecting marks will not last long. I have found that people you really extend yourself for are the ones that stab you in the back. I did some experimenting and found that people I treated gruffly respected me more and responded better. Those I sought to help with more choices as I educated them ended up turning on me.

[Jewboo]

Dr. Joel Wallach is in my opinion the greatest living naturopathic physician and nutritionist. However, Youngevity is structured as MLM.



http://weightlossforblackwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/heart-disease-with-dr-joel-wallach.jpg

Wallach is balding and doesn't himself look particularly well nourished or healthy.