$21 Trillion Missing?

[singular_me]

fiat money is the deep end of profit seeking, and was bound to be invented eventually... we can thank the chinese for this and who created the first notes more than 1000 years ago.

Dr. Mark Skidmore – $21 Trillion Missing from US Federal Budget

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CwpjIwwI9o

[Horn]

Dollar positive +1

China and everyone else might have thought those dollars actually existed...

[ziero0]

The first day of the rest of your life starts tomorrow. It doesn't make any difference what transpired today or yesterday or what your relatives or ancestors did [unless you are Bill Murray and acting in a movie called GROUNDHOG DAY].

[Neuro]

So supposedly the whole US federal debt has been squandered or been lost and unaccounted for. I don’t know if I believe that...

[ziero0]

So supposedly the whole US federal debt has been squandered or been lost and unaccounted for. I don’t know if I believe that...

The whole U.S. federal debt is $346,681,016 and stopped changing in 1878.

[Neuro]

The whole U.S. federal debt is $346,681,016 and stopped changing in 1878.

It could be anything you believe it to be.

[ziero0]

It could be anything you believe it to be.

No. It is what THEY say it is. My share of it is only $5

[Neuro]

No. It is what THEY say it is. My share of it is only $5

Don’t trust what dead men say...

[ziero0]

Don’t trust what dead men say...
All in all they appear to be a silent group. Or do you go to seances?

[Neuro]

All in all they appear to be a silent group. Or do you go to seances?No do you? Or who is “THEY” that you mentioned above?

[Horn]

So supposedly the whole US federal debt has been squandered or been lost and unaccounted for. I don’t know if I believe that...

Who said anything about the U.S. debt being lost?

I imagine it could be paid off at anytime if those 21t are unaccounted floating around somewhere or not.

[ziero0]

No do you?
My policy is avoid those seances society refers to as courts of law. The reasons are the same respecting those who don't appear and those who don't exist.


who is “THEY” that you mentioned above?
'They' is those who came before who presently have no status as 'living'.

[Neuro]

'They' is those who came before who presently have no status as 'living'.

Thus you put your trust in the words of currently dead people, consider if they would continue to live that THEY may have a different idea compared to what THEY had in 1878...

[Neuro]

Who said anything about the U.S. debt being lost?

I imagine it could be paid off at anytime if those 21t are unaccounted floating around somewhere or not.

True I see I worded it poorly. What I meant was that the money being squandered or lost, is approximately equivalent to what US federal government currently owes (unless one is stuck in 1878, for some obscure reason). If $21T is indeed lost, as claimed, I think it would be safe to assume that most of it would be unrecovable even if it could be traced. Not that one shouldn’t try to trace and recover it. And in case the source of the loss could be found, a sizable prison sentence could be meted out if the full balance couldn’t be recovered from personal assets. In the extreme case of corruption rather than incompetence, torture and death penalty could be used against the officials responsible.

[ziero0]

Thus you put your trust in the words of currently dead people
Only those who believe in the resurrection.


if they would continue to live that THEY may have a different idea compared to what THEY had in 1878... Who mentioned anything of their ideas? Their debt is what is under discussion. This debt is transferable to their heirs.

[Horn]

In the video it mentioned some changes to laws in the late 90s that permitted some areas of the budget to be hidden from view for national security purposes.

Imo what you are seeing here is just that. Nobody knows how far in debt the U.S. really is. Could be 1 trillion could be 20.

Its what is part of a greater transparancy in government.

[Cebu_4_2]

In the video it mentioned some changes to laws in the late 90s that permitted some areas of the budget to be hidden from view for national security purposes.

Imo what you are seeing here is just that. Nobody knows how far in debt the U.S. really is. Could be 1 trillion could be 20.

Its what is part of a greater transparancy in government.

Transparency lol. Trump can spend it as he wishes. If it's hookers and blow so be it, no one can say shit.

[Neuro]

Only those who believe in the resurrection. Twist, wiggle and turn that’s all you do, cause you really don’t have any substantive arguments.


Who mentioned anything of their ideas? Their debt is what is under discussion. This debt is transferable to their heirs.

Yes and the way it normally works, the heirs have the ability to add or subtract to the debt. Even change the definition of what counts as debt, or the underlying currency that regulates the value of that debt. But I understand that you are of the opinion that something magical happened in 1878, that set this debt in stone, isn’t that so? I mean the $5 of it that you think you hold, you can’t really do anything with it, can you? Apart from pass it on to another? You can’t ask for it to be settled, and you can’t even in your infinite mercy and kindness suggest it to be forgiven, cause nothing since 1878 has changed it, it is a constant.

[ziero0]

you really don’t have any substantive arguments.
I don't have any arguments at all whether substantive or any other sort. I present you with reason and you presume that is argument.


Yes and the way it normally works, the heirs have the ability to add or subtract to the debt. Even change the definition of what counts as debt, or the underlying currency that regulates the value of that debt.
Perhaps you need to be made aware that the debtor does not define the debt. The creditor has that function nailed down.


I understand that you are of the opinion that something magical happened in 1878, that set this debt in stone, isn’t that so? I mean the $5 of it that you think you hold, you can’t really do anything with it, can you? Apart from pass it on to another? You can’t ask for it to be settled, and you can’t even in your infinite mercy and kindness suggest it to be forgiven, cause nothing since 1878 has changed it, it is a constant.

Yes. Congress did set the debt of the government that went out of business in 1868 into stone. They have made a provision that any money(s) directed to pay this debt authorizes Treasury to print another note in the same amount. I would point out though that the five dollar note I hold makes me a creditor and in any action of Account directed to me I am able to produce the note and wave it in the face of anyone demanding specific performance while shouting out 'IN WHAT UNIVERSE DOES THE DEBTOR GET TO DEMAND PAYMENT FROM THE CREDITOR?'

[latemetal1]

I'll bet most of this money is in Israel, as well as most of the Ft. Knox gold, but I am paranoid...a little.

[Neuro]

I don't have any arguments at all whether substantive or any other sort. I present you with reason and you presume that is argument.


Perhaps you need to be made aware that the debtor does not define the debt. The creditor has that function nailed down.



Yes. Congress did set the debt of the government that went out of business in 1868 into stone. They have made a provision that any money(s) directed to pay this debt authorizes Treasury to print another note in the same amount. I would point out though that the five dollar note I hold makes me a creditor and in any action of Account directed to me I am able to produce the note and wave it in the face of anyone demanding specific performance while shouting out 'IN WHAT UNIVERSE DOES THE DEBTOR GET TO DEMAND PAYMENT FROM THE CREDITOR?'

There is just one flaw in your argument you are a creditor to the bankrupt government of 1868 (or is it 1878?), not the current government. Apparently the current government doesn’t even recognize the debts of the government of 1868. So you shouting in the face of a representative of the current government, that you are a creditor of the 1868 government, is an exercise in pointlessness.

Do you have any real examples of where this tactic has actually worked to your advantage? Not counting free room and board at a correctional facility...

[ziero0]

you are a creditor to the bankrupt government of 1868 (or is it 1878?), not the current government. Apparently the current government doesn’t even recognize the debts of the government of 1868.
No apparently. Absolutely. The XIV amendment points out that the current government (pre-1868) will not recognize the debts of an insurgent government (post XIV amendment). Of course this also means that the insurgent government will not recognize the debts of the de jure government. But then neither can the de facto government actually inherit any of the assets of the de jure government and convert these assets to their own use without recognizing the debts that are attached to these same assets. Equity is a big thing with the insurgent government and equity is about nothing if not fairness.



So you shouting in the face of a representative of the current government, that you are a creditor of the 1868 government, is an exercise in pointlessness. As long as there is a single creditor doing the shouting then the de jure government (the one based upon federalism and the organic constitution) is not a dead entity. Someone has to be there with a claim to keep it alive. Otherwise you might just want to bury the bill of rights because it is beginning to stink.


Do you have any real examples of where this tactic has actually worked to your advantage? Not counting free room and board at a correctional facility... Who is going to argue with me? The debtor? He has not the right as he only exists in a fictional construct.

[Neuro]

No apparently. Absolutely. The XIV amendment points out that the current government (pre-1868) will not recognize the debts of an insurgent government (post XIV amendment). Of course this also means that the insurgent government will not recognize the debts of the de jure government. But then neither can the de facto government actually inherit any of the assets of the de jure government and convert these assets to their own use without recognizing the debts that are attached to these same assets. Equity is a big thing with the insurgent government and equity is about nothing if not fairness.


As long as there is a single creditor doing the shouting then the de jure government (the one based upon federalism and the organic constitution) is not a dead entity. Someone has to be there with a claim to keep it alive. Otherwise you might just want to bury the bill of rights because it is beginning to stink.

Who is going to argue with me? The debtor? He has not the right as he only exists in a fictional construct.

The debtor is the ghost of the pre-1868 government, so I doubt you find any one to argue with there. The current de facto government doesn’t recognize the de jure government debt of 1868, so you can shout all you want about being a creditor, it doesn’t really matter does it? An exercise in pointlessness, that’s all there is.

[ziero0]

The debtor is the ghost of the pre-1868 government, so I doubt you find any one to argue with there. I don't argue. It is their note and not mine. It is also a memorial of their debt.



The current de facto government doesn’t recognize the de jure government debt of 1868, so you can shout all you want about being a creditor, it doesn’t really matter does it? An exercise in pointlessness, that’s all there is. So your position is that if you cannot obtain satisfaction on a loan you should simply forget about it?

Here is a debt that the current de facto government cannot deny .... it is theirs

https://www.tidefans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7934


IN OCTOBER OF 2002, the widow of a long-serving OSS/CIA officer, Colonel Russell Hermann ( originally a Coast Guard recruit ), approached the Federal Reserve Bank in Omaha and requested entry. She was questioned -- "who are you ?"

Her answer was succinct: "I am V.K. Durham of the Durham Trust, and I am the Primary Creditor of the United States of America."

After a few moments of fumbling, Ms. Durham was granted immediate access to this regional member bank of the Federal Reserve System. In the next few minutes, it was made clear to the officials of the bank, and thus to the Federal Reserve System itself, that Ms. V.K. Durham was not dead -- despite having been declared 'dead' by the so-called Social Security Administration in Region V. Despite having been denied survivor's benefits owed to her as the widow of a veteran who had served his country in war, peace and during the long twilight struggle called The Cold War, on the premise that she was 'dead.' She was, indeed, alive.

Over the next six months, in a series of interviews and articles posted here on RMN and circulated widely on the Internet via e-mail, Ms. V. K. Durham explained how and why she, as the CEO of the Durham Trust, became the primary creditor of the United States of America through her ownership and control of a debt instrument created by the Legislature of Peru in 1875, and assumed as a debt of the United States some thirty-two years or so later.

Slowly, the word circulated throughout the international banking community that V. K. Durham was not dead, and that The Durham Trust, of which she was a founding member and CEO, had the only lawful "color instruments" comprising the debt created by Peru and guaranteed by a mortgage on their natural resources "until paid in full."

May, 1875

This instrument has come to be known as "the Bonus 3392-181," and it is a one-time only Commodity Contract ( the same as a Bill of Lading ), providing for payment in gold, with interest, and sold in New York in the spring of 1875. The purpose of this Contract was to provide the government of Peru with gold currency so that the English Bond holders who had helped finance the construction of their railroad system could be paid off. It was one of many and various instruments floated at that time, to raise money in gold for their creditors in the City of London.

Eventually, almost all of the debt instruments sold by business agents or factors on behalf of Peru were either resold, and liquidated or otherwise cashed out, mostly by the thirty-year maturity date which was most common then, or 1905. However, the Bill of Lading known as the Contract or Bonus 3392 was not secured by those looking to cash in on this issuance of debt, and it was listed as being among the debts of Peru assumed by an Agreement of the United States government via the Department of Agriculture with regard to The Guano Act of 1856 and other acts and agreements. The debts of Peru were assumed as being ours, and many of them were paid in gold at that time.

The Bonus 3392-181 was not a regular bond, not subject to a "drop-dead maturity date" and was scheduled to pay 7 per cent on both interest and principal, compounded and computed every six months -- "until paid." Payment for this Bill of Lading was to be in gold coin, gold bullion or in another form of gold as lawful money, as might be stipulated later. The point is, it was a Contract for payment in gold as money. It was never paid, never liquidated, and it has never expired.

The years passed. The Bonus 3392, held by one of V.K. Durham's blood relatives, was thought to be missing or to have been destroyed, but it was simply misplaced in storage for a very long time. It passed into her possession in 1975 in a most unremarkable way, and some years elapsed before its true value was recognized. In 1989 and 1990, with the help of her late husband, Col. Russell Hermann, she was able to establish the bona fides of this Bill of Lading/Commodity Contract payable in gold, and further research proved that it was a debt assumed by the United States prior to the establishment of the privately-owned Federal Reserve System. This banking cartel was established in 1913.

After that was done in December of 1913, additional Acts of Congress passed on December 24th, 1919 created additional responsiblities under the Foreign Federal Reserve System designation. From 1919 on the Federal Reserve was made responsible for managing all of the external and pre-existing debts of the United States, for providing for Bills of Lading and for Bills of Exchange, offering Notes, and it was required by the terms of the founding acts of 1913 and the 1919 amendments, to be in conformity with U.S. law. There is no question that this outstanding debt of Peru, assumed by the United States in a debt swap to keep Peruvian guano and nitrates flowing into this country, is a lawful commodity contract under international law and under the law of the land of the United States of America, pre-existing and dating to 1875.

May, 1990

In 1990 Col. Hermann and V. K. Durham had the value of the contract calculated by the Federal Reserve System bank in Los Angeles: and as of that time, with penalties and the interest thereon having compounded every six months, the value of the Bonus 3392 was established at being in excess of $ 206, 858 Trillion U.S. au -- gold. Given that the alleged debt of the United States as claimed by the Federal Reserve System, the so-called "national debt," was calculated at $6.5 Trillion last year in May, this Contract is 29,550 times larger, and that's only as of the benchmark date of May, 1990.

That makes the Bonus 3392 the largest debt owed, and the owner of that debt the primary creditor. In addition, it is the oldest debt owed of those assumed from Latin America at the turn of the last century. With the help of Colonel Hermann and other experts, V. K. Durham set up the Durham Trust to maintain the ownership of this Commodity Contract, and to protect it from predatory financial agents. As it happens, Russell Hermann was abducted, tortured, poisoned and then murdered in 1994. Counterfeiters -- brilliant swindlers who posed as friends of the late Colonel -- got copies of of the Bonus and began marketing them around the world a few years later, putting Deeds of Assignment into active play, based on false statements and fraud. This has created much chaos. These counterfeits have also been used to fund Islamic fundamentalist networks in the Philippines -- the Abu Sayeff -- and to help support the "Al Qaeda" network of Islamic groups.

Those frauds have all been discovered and uncovered. Some $ 400 Trillion in phony financial instruments have been written on the Bonus 3392 by these counterfeiters, who are expatriate Americans known as E.J. and Doris E. Ekker, most recently of Makatai City in the Philippines. There may be more than that, as new frauds are being discovered almost every week, but even if the number tops the $ 500 Trillion mark, that's but a mere fraction of the total value, in gold collateral, of this Bonus 3392-181.

May, 2003

Negotations begun last year in the spring, led V. K. Durham to make an agreement with the Federal Reserve System, to do a 'debt swap,' and this trade was approved by the Governors and the Central Intelligence Agency ( as needed under the PATRIOT Act ). There were two parts to the debt swap, a block of debt swapped for collateral in gold of $ 6.5 Trillion U.S. to liquidate the so-called National Debt and a second block of $ 6.5 Trillion U.S. to be used for humanitarian purposes and for debt relief in the Latin American countries, and the United States.

Additionally, approximately one billion in U.S. dollars was to be provided to the Durham Trust and its subdivisions for gold banking operations, to enable it to oversee and do "due diligence" in the assignment of funds -- in gold collateral -- for humanitarian purposes and reconstruction projects. Finally, the non-negotiable part of this deal, in which the Federal Reserve System's owners would get $ 6.5 Trillion in gold collateral for the debt they themselves foisted on the U.S.A., was that all mortgages on all properties and land in the United States, as recorded through December of 2002, were to be marked "Paid In Full" and returned to the property owners or their heirs and assigns. That's correct -- all of the mortgages held by all of the banks under the Federal Reserve System's control, or foreign banks with which it must correspond via the 1919 Act and other acts, were to be marked as paid in full ....

The instruments to assign this debt swap were drafted and executed on May 21, 2003. The banking cartel of Spain, otherwise known as the Control Group, and Clear Stream, were named to handle the transactions and compliance was assured to be completed within three weeks. Certain U.S. banks were named to handle the drafts to establish gold banking for the Durham Trust. Promises were made and many assurances given. Shipping numbers and receipts are available to prove this offer was made, sent and delivered.

The Federal Reserve System's governors lied. They embezzled the $ 13 Trillion U.S. and welched on the deal to 'put paid' to all of the mortgages held by the banks under their supervision, or by correspondence. These monies were shovelled into the various stock markets, while the mortgages -- which are stored mainly in London and Paris, as 'assets' of foreign bankers -- were not returned to the U.S. and not paid off. The Durham Trust was not invested with $ 1 billion U.S. au for the purpose of overseeing its humanitarian projects, and the indebtedness of our Latin American neighbors was not liquidated, either. This amounts to the greatest banking fraud in history.

Since that time, the leading Chinese banks and the Islamic banks who were the primary victims of the counterfeiting mentioned before, have wised up and are demanding satisfaction from the Federal Reserve System. Since they are stonewalling the bankers of Hong Kong and Shanghai, of Jeddah and Kuala Lumpur, this is leading to a sharp decline in the value of the dollar in overseas markets, and not a healthy decline either. Korean and Japanese banking is in turmoil too.

As of March 22nd, V. K. Durham has been in contact with principals of the United States Treasury, who first contacted her: she asserts that her position is clear -- the embezzlers must be brought to account, and the counterfeiters brought to justice, before the Durham Trust will render any additional assistance or underwrite any other debt relief programs -- period. She has made it precisely and abundantly clear to the Secretary of the Treasury that there will be no bail-out of the Federal Reserve System, no support for any private bank associated with these frauds, and no further negotiations with any private agency or agent. "They had their chance to do right," she said. "Let them twist in the wind, now."

Perhaps this message will help make certain things clear: the reason that there is so much money available now for "mortgages and refinancing" is that the embezzled money has been streamed downwards to secondary banks and to commercial lenders. Most of those operations are run by honest people who have no clue that the 'new capital' being made available, is stolen money. Second, the swindlers seem to believe that if they can write thousands and thousands of new mortgages, that this will lessen 'the pain' of having to write down all the old mortgages. What pain ?? Forget the fact that the banking factors were being provided $ 6 and one half trillion U.S. to liquidate these debts !! It was all consumer debt, ledger entries, many of which were created out of thin air, to begin with !! It isn't even really about greed, it is about their ambitions for social control and the usurpations of our rights, and their own arrogance.

V. K. Durham has tried every avenue known, to seek redress for these grievances: notice of this embezzlement and fraud has been given to the Securities Exchange Commission, to the Secret Service and Treasury, to various Congressmen and Senators, to foreign press agents and news media. She's archived the documents in question for anyone to view, and she's written extensively from her own perspective on all of the swindles and chicanery that this 'theft of the centuries' has involved. And the historical background and developments surrounding the Bonus 3392-181, and more.

The SEC has refused to consider the question at all. The Secret Service claims it has only one duty, to protect the President ( which is an outright lie, as counterfeiting is in its domain ). But pressure from foreign bankers and financial markets is beginning to become unbearable.

How will it all play out ? Neither political party 'on the Hill' wants to touch this, as they all crawl on their bellies to pay homage to Sir Alan of Greenspan, and hang on his every mumbled and muttered utterance.

And so, does Ralph Nader have the courage -- as the leading consumer advocate of the last forty years -- to demand to get, and to know the truth about the Durham debt swap of 2003, and the embezzlement of $ 13 Trillion U.S., and the unlawful pirating away of the mortgages on properties belonging to Citizens of the U.S., held by British and French banking factors, in the City of London or in Paris

And isn't this more important than whether or not the Supreme Court will hear arguments about "pledging allegiance?" We all love the flag, and we all think of God as having a reality in our lives -- each in our own way -- but this issue is about real money, real embezzlement and the real theft of mortgage payments by British and French bankers who know very well that these properties have been PAID OFF by the Durham Trust in the debt swap of 2003. And here is her statement of intention, concerning the uses of the gold collateral value held in trust by The Durham Trust:

"This TRUST will underwrite the necessary collateral from this OUTSTANDING DEBT owed to the TRUST CREDITOR -- to UNDERWRITE "AMERICAN OWNED" INDUSTRY, MANUFACTURING, HOUSING, EDUCATIONAL SYSTEMS, RESEARCH and DEVELOPMENT, JOBS, family owned FARMS, et cetera, as needed, and to REBUILD the U.S. & LATIN AMERICAN REPUBLICS." It is 'a Marshall Plan' for the American Continents.

Here is the link to view the documents drafted by V.K. Durham and sent to the Banking Control Group and the Federal Reserve in May of 2003:

http://www.theantechamber.net/VkDocu...aymtIndex.html

[Neuro]

I don't argue. It is their note and not mine. It is also a memorial of their debt.


So your position is that if you cannot obtain satisfaction on a loan you should simply forget about it?

Well since you didn’t get the debt note before 1868, you knew it was worthless as such (perhaps it has value as memorabilia) when you got it, from whoever. Sure you can continue to go around deluding yourself that a non-existent government owes you something, but the fact is that you knew when you got it that in a monetary sense it was worthless for the rest of your future.

And yes if I feel certain that I cannot obtain satisfactorial resolution of a loan. I would attempt to put my mind on more important matters in my life.

On the other hand perhaps having a spiel waving the bill in the face of a government agent while shouting of a few well chosen words can get you off their hook for the time being, and if that ever happens to you, kudos!

[ziero0]

Well since you didn’t get the debt note before 1868, you knew it was worthless as such (perhaps it has value as memorabilia) when you got it Your reasoning is faulty.

you can continue to go around deluding yourself that a non-existent government owes you something, but the fact is that you knew when you got it that in a monetary sense it was worthless for the rest of your future. I suppose you missed the part where I suggested if government was coming after me for some matter of account?

if I feel certain that I cannot obtain satisfactorial resolution of a loan. I would attempt to put my mind on more important matters in my life. As do I. Again ... the situation proposed is where the present government presumes some action of account.

Generally in a duel the challenged party gets to choose the weapon of choice. When attacked with paper I will tend to choose scissors. If attacked with stone I will defend with paper. When attacked with scissors I will choose stone. This is called 'winning'.

In this case my paper is superior to any other paper simply because the debt is superior due to age. If this approach doesn't yield a satisfactory my default weapon is scissors.

[Neuro]

Your reasoning is faulty.
I suppose you missed the part where I suggested if government was coming after me for some matter of account?
As do I. Again ... the situation proposed is where the present government presumes some action of account.

Generally in a duel the challenged party gets to choose the weapon of choice. When attacked with paper I will tend to choose scissors. If attacked with stone I will defend with paper. When attacked with scissors I will choose stone. This is called 'winning'.

In this case my paper is superior to any other paper simply because the debt is superior due to age. If this approach doesn't yield a satisfactory my default weapon is scissors.

I think you have a very romantic idea of your hypothetical “duel” with the government.

[old steel]

Ok, where is the missing 21 trillion and who just farted?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaJe8s2UwAE-hjj.jpg


9789

[ziero0]

I think you have a very romantic idea of your hypothetical “duel” with the government.
Did I say government? I meant any action taken in derogation to my best interests. Government is formed based upon charitable trust concepts. Somewhat likened to the Red Cross or Salvation Army. Now why would I care to take on any charitable trust? They all are formed for charitable reasons and do a great job. But I cannot conceive of either the Red Cross or Salvation Army sticking a firearm in my face telling me I must or must not do something.

In any relation there are boundary conditions and limits. If government agents don't know these I would be at fault if I did not instruct them as to what these conditions and limits actually are. If the Red Cross were to hold me up for a coffee or donut the situation would be similar. If the Salvation Army stopped me on the street and insisted I donate my clothing to the indigent the same.

[Neuro]

did i say government? I meant any action taken in derogation to my best interests. Government is formed based upon charitable trust concepts. Somewhat likened to the red cross or salvation army. Now why would i care to take on any charitable trust? They all are formed for charitable reasons and do a great job. But i cannot conceive of either the red cross or salvation army sticking a firearm in my face telling me i must or must not do something.

In any relation there are boundary conditions and limits. if government agents don't know these i would be at fault if i did not instruct them as to what these conditions and limits actually are. if the red cross were to hold me up for a coffee or donut the situation would be similar. If the salvation army stopped me on the street and insisted i donate my clothing to the indigent the same.

lol

[Horn]

Great analogy. ziero0

If you could unincorporate that as a religion, you might have a huge following through Constitutional loopholes.

[ziero0]

If you could unincorporate that as a religion, you might have a huge following through Constitutional loopholes.
Anyone can perform governance. The government has proven this. Thinking of government as a charitable organization candy-coats actions they take but these are still medicine I get to decide whether I need or not.