Crypto Currency is the Future

[StreetsOfGold]

We have not had a good poll is some time, this one is NOT anonymous

[Neuro]

Yes, only an act of god could stop it. However, unfortunately it is not going to be one of the currently independent (or more or less semi-independent) crypto currencies available today that will make it in the end. The rulers of the world will take the features of the cryptographic techs that have evolved over the last decade, that suits their needs best and implement their own world currency, the mark of the beast, without which no man could trade his services and goods for goods and services he needs. Essentially every transaction will be in the ledger, and everyone’s wealth or lack thereof will be instantly on record for the rulers.

[osoab]

I've been hearing things about this stuff called "plastic". You think this stuff will make it over the long haul? /s

[Ares]

I've been hearing things about this stuff called "plastic". You think this stuff will make it over the long haul? /s

Yes smartcash has implemented a "smartcard" that will make transactions instantly utilizing their smartnode network.

I was an early advocate of crypto currencies. Here lately, I'm not so sure they'll be able to scale to the need in order to facilitate daily transactions. The numbers involved are absolutely astounding, so it's a problem of scale with a global network.

Satoshi knew this which is why he set the block time to 10 minutes to give the other nodes in the network enough time to get updated with the current block and to start over and work towards finding a new block. The shortest blocks I've seen now has been a little under a minute, waves can do 1000s of transactions a minute with the NG protocol but they are not able to do millions of transactions a second, which is what is required for instant payments.

Do I have an answer? No, I'm not sure how you can go about factoring hundreds of milliseconds from the nodes farthest from each other so that all nodes are updated at the same time so that all have a copy of the current ledger.

Even Visa and MasterCard have this problem and is why they setup regional hubs for transaction processing.

They also have to fix all of the scamming and theft that takes place within crypto in order to allow for mass adoption.

[StreetsOfGold]

I'm not so sure they'll be able to scale to the need in order to facilitate daily transactions.

There is ZERO doubt this can and will happen, it's called the lightning network

In the meantime, while MOST of this forum is asleep, the world is moving forward with this, even the de facto standard in banking/FIAT/Stock/bond pushing website (Marketwatch) has now ADDED a TAB for cryptos

9903

[Ares]

There is ZERO doubt this can and will happen, it's called the lightning network

There is a lot of controversy regarding the lightening network. The major player pushing for it wants to centralize the lightening network, meaning only they would control the lightening nodes. Most of the mining community is against that, and some have even refused to process blocks for the lightening transactions which will eventually have to be added to the blockchain, and without the miners support lightening is a non-starter.


In the meantime, while MOST of this forum is asleep, the world is moving forward with this, even the de facto standard in banking/FIAT/Stock/bond pushing website (Marketwatch) has now ADDED a TAB for cryptos

9903

The problem is still scale, even with lightening it cannot process millions of transactions a second, which is what Visa / Mastercard do on a daily basis.

[midnight rambler]

Cryptos were developed by the Beast.

http://themillenniumreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/flashback-1988-get-ready-for-a-world-currency-the-economist-magazine.jpg

[Ares]

Cryptos were developed by the Beast.

http://themillenniumreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/flashback-1988-get-ready-for-a-world-currency-the-economist-magazine.jpg

I still don't believe that (((they))) created it for the sole reason that it shows what is possible without them. Cryptos will have a place in the future, but by using it for a few years and seeing the amount of delays even on relatively fast networks like Ethereum blockchain tech isn't quick enough to do instant transactions. Even the lightening network isn't able to process a lot of transactions at once. Yes its quicker, but it can't do a lot of transactions (in the millions per second which is what is required for a global payment method.)

If you read the lightening network whitepaper the initial micro transaction is offchain, but eventually that transaction has to be recorded or its not valid. You're essentially doing what debt based money is doing today, borrowing today against the future. The micro transaction is not spendable until the blockchain has added it to the ledger. Meaning if you build the lightening network, and start doing hundreds or thousands of micro transactions a second, your pushing the delay in order to spend them again into the future until they can be recorded. The more that there are, the longer it will take.

Again the issue is problem of scale.

[Neuro]

There is a lot of controversy regarding the lightening network. The major player pushing for it wants to centralize the lightening network, meaning only they would control the lightening nodes. Most of the mining community is against that, and some have even refused to process blocks for the lightening transactions which will eventually have to be added to the blockchain, and without the miners support lightening is a non-starter.



The problem is still scale, even with lightening it cannot process millions of transactions a second, which is what Visa / Mastercard do on a daily basis.

A completely centralized network should be able to handle unlimited number of transactions, no?

[Ares]

A completely centralized network should be able to handle unlimited number of transactions, no?

No, as you have to factor in latency from say Europe to North America or from China to South America etc. You have to have regional hubs to process the transactions where they happen. It's what CC providers have done, but even then the transaction doesn't show up until 24 hours later typically.

[singular_me]

Capitalism is doomed (and so is socialism)

why? okay, the case against capitalism is obvious

expecting more returns than what one puts in
Wages can never equal the ouput of labor.
endless spending mode to sustain profits

That is indeed a recipe for some judgment day

[Ares]

Capitalism is doomed (and so is socialism)

why? okay, the case against capitalism is obvious

expecting more returns that what one puts in
Wages can never equal the ouput of labor.
endless spending more to sustain profits

That is indeed a recipe for some judgment day

Until you can feed yourself as well as extended family without using a medium of exchange I probably wouldn't be making such ridiculous comments.

[singular_me]

see... play with the fallacious system or else...how so ridiculous, what I said are true consequences of this economic fallacy.

That is why hayek and friedman became proponents of universal basic income in their later years. They knew. They knew the theory was flawed.

NO exit but Natural Laws and money-free society. The battle is

Truth versus beliefs


Until you can feed yourself as well as extended family without using a medium of exchange I probably wouldn't be making such ridiculous comments.

[Ares]

see... play with the fallacious system or else...how so ridiculous, what I said are true consequences of this economic fallacy.

That is why hayek and friedman became proponents of universal basic income in their later years. They knew. They knew the theory was flawed.

NO exit but Natural Laws and money-free society. The battle is

Truth versus beliefs

See make up imaginary claims, skirt any evidence or proof of it's existence... :rolleyes:

[Neuro]

No, as you have to factor in latency from say Europe to North America or from China to South America etc. You have to have regional hubs to process the transactions where they happen. It's what CC providers have done, but even then the transaction doesn't show up until 24 hours later typically.

Why is regional hubs necessary? If the regional hubs are provided by the internet network why should a cryptocuurency need it’s own hub?

[StreetsOfGold]

Todays' news pretty much solidifies that cryptos will be the future
Starbucks will be accepting Bitcoin and "other cryptos" starting in November
While I hate this company, they are one the of biggest companies in the world

"Got crypto?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRUqLtRJl5s

[Ares]

Why is regional hubs necessary? If the regional hubs are provided by the internet network why should a cryptocuurency need it’s own hub?

Reduces network latency. To take a single packet around the world (minus bouncing off satellites, if you include satellites average 3-5 seconds (3000ms - 5000ms) it takes roughly 1000ms. Depend on which node picks it up will depend on network latency. If you have a couple hundred thousand transactions and the transaction has to travel to the other side of the planet, you'll have a large delay while the node is inundated with traffic while it waits for a response after it authorizes the transaction. Thats TCP in a nutshell. Send, Send Ack, etc, Receive, Receive Ack, etc. So you can imagine the amount of time that would build up if a single packet takes 1000ms to get to the other side of the planet, it will take another 1000ms for the node to tell the client that it received the first packet. So just the initial Sync to start the transaction in the above scenario took 2 seconds. Which may not seem like a lot, until you start having millions of them per second.

Regional hubs reduce the network latency, as the transaction stays close to where it was created. With CC providers they sync up every 24 hours to log the transactions to the central office, its why CC transactions do not show up until 24 hours later on average. But for blockchain having the transaction show up 24 hours later isn't feasible as the individual who sent the first transaction could theoretically spend it again (double spend) since the chain hasn't committed the transaction to the blockchain.

[Neuro]

Todays' news pretty much solidifies that cryptos will be the future
Starbucks will be accepting Bitcoin and "other cryptos" starting in November
While I hate this company, they are one the of biggest companies in the world

"Got crypto?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRUqLtRJl5s

That will surely be the end of bitcoin, imagine having to pay the equivalent of $50 and wait +24h for confirmation on your payment before you get your coffee.

[Neuro]

Reduces network latency. To take a single packet around the world (minus bouncing off satellites, if you include satellites average 3-5 seconds (3000ms - 5000ms) it takes roughly 1000ms. Depend on which node picks it up will depend on network latency. If you have a couple hundred thousand transactions and the transaction has to travel to the other side of the planet, you'll have a large delay while the node is inundated with traffic while it waits for a response after it authorizes the transaction. Thats TCP in a nutshell. Send, Send Ack, etc, Receive, Receive Ack, etc. So you can imagine the amount of time that would build up if a single packet takes 1000ms to get to the other side of the planet, it will take another 1000ms for the node to tell the client that it received the first packet. So just the initial Sync to start the transaction in the above scenario took 2 seconds. Which may not seem like a lot, until you start having millions of them per second.

Regional hubs reduce the network latency, as the transaction stays close to where it was created. With CC providers they sync up every 24 hours to log the transactions to the central office, its why CC transactions do not show up until 24 hours later on average. But for blockchain having the transaction show up 24 hours later isn't feasible as the individual who sent the first transaction could theoretically spend it again (double spend) since the chain hasn't committed the transaction to the blockchain.

Yes but the internet which is the communication network of choice already have its regional nodes. I can send a message to you in USA from Sweden in a fraction of a second. I don’t see why that wouldn’t work with payment transactions. Why does a payment network need separate regional nodes?

Having a million of transactions simultaneously? Well you just need to have a million open lines into your server and a computer to handle them all. A few seconds transactions time is acceptable (I would say a limit of 15-20 secs) for paying for a coffee.

[singular_me]

no imaginary claims at all, I am stating ALL the FLAWS

taking out more than what one puts in (greed)
Wages can never equal the output of labor (bias)
endlessly spending to sustain profits (cannibalism)
subjectivity of value causing price volatility
growth only fueled by credit
fiat money can never repay debt

monetarism is a deception as a whole when seeking profits, would it be socialism or capitalism. voluntaryism is what the Universe wants us to master because the flaws themselves create the top down model and structural violence. The medium of exchange does not matter but the perception as how to create so-called wealth

Listen, I have started as a staunch gold standard advocate, then became an anarcho capitalist, and now am an absolute voluntaryist. All ideologies that prescribe money are same.

Even von mises said that value is subjective, thats another flaw of the theory. I have been investigating this for more than 4 years now.

Like I sais the battle is Truth vs beliefs (ego)

imaginary claims???

Why Did Hayek Support a Basic Income?
https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/why-did-hayek-support-basic-income

look for that of Friedman and von mises yourself now

conclusion: cryptos have been created by the same "usual suspects" because the flaws are still built in. Nature will never allow to take more out that what one puts in... unless one is on the side of evil

Voluntaryism follows immutable Cosmic Laws all proven scientifically... man-made laws are all bunk, look at the planet today... imaginary claims?



See make up imaginary claims, skirt any evidence or proof of it's existence... :rolleyes:

[StreetsOfGold]

That will surely be the end of bitcoin, imagine having to pay the equivalent of $50 and wait +24h for confirmation on your payment before you get your coffee.

The cost of using Bitcoin is going to go down, nonetheless, "other cryptos" will also be accepted which have minimal fees and LOWER than credit cards.

[Neuro]

The cost of using Bitcoin is going to go down, nonetheless, "other cryptos" will also be accepted which have minimal fees and LOWER than credit cards.

I am well aware what I wrote about Bitcoin was the situation 6 months ago, transaction times and cost is way down since then on btc, but it is a situation that is likely to re-occur with regularity, as the bitcoin network is controlled by the miners interests at hand rather than the hodlers. When btc is perceived as strong and dominant, miners limit the transaction number, and people out of desperation gets forced into buying a premium slot in the transaction cue. And when the crypto community starts question the hegemony of btc they retreat. But usually the level of reform has been too little too late. Btc will probably be overtaken in the next couple of years, by ethereum or some other coin, that actually functions as a currency. I like bitcoin cash (BCH).

[Ares]

Yes but the internet which is the communication network of choice already have its regional nodes. I can send a message to you in USA from Sweden in a fraction of a second. I don’t see why that wouldn’t work with payment transactions. Why does a payment network need separate regional nodes?

Having a million of transactions simultaneously? Well you just need to have a million open lines into your server and a computer to handle them all. A few seconds transactions time is acceptable (I would say a limit of 15-20 secs) for paying for a coffee.

It isn't a separate communication channel it's the same internet that you and I are using now. But if I gave you an IP address in the United States to ping the delay would likely be between 15ms to 100ms. That's assuming that you and I are both on a boardband connection. Block chain technology is open source so anyone can create a node. The problem is broadband connectivity is not available to everyone. So you don't know who will be picking up the transaction. It could be me who has a 1GB fiber link into the home, or someone with a 128k dsl connection in rural China.

[Neuro]

It isn't a separate communication channel it's the same internet that you and I are using now. But if I gave you an IP address in the United States to ping the delay would likely be between 15ms to 100ms. That's assuming that you and I are both on a boardband connection. Block chain technology is open source so anyone can create a node. The problem is broadband connectivity is not available to everyone. So you don't know who will be picking up the transaction. It could be me who has a 1GB lfiber link into the home, or someone with a 128k dsl connection in rural China.

Still each transaction is small in data size. What I am saying is that the central node of the NWO Phoenix cryptobank needs to be able to handle huge number of transactions... You will not have any insight to the ledger. You’ll have access to your wallet via a retinal scan or some other biometrics.

[Ares]

Still each transaction is small in data size. What I am saying is that the central node of the NWO Phoenix cryptobank needs to be able to handle huge number of transactions... You will not have any insight to the ledger. You’ll have access to your wallet via a retinal scan or some other biometrics.

But that's not how blockchain works. All nodes within the chain need to have the same ledger. Centralized nodes / Blockchain technology are not able to coexist in the same ecosystem. You can shoehorn it like Ripple has done where they own all the nodes and control the medium of exchange (XRP) but no one outside of investors trusts it for day to day usage.

Even if you have super nodes (similar to Skype's VOIP service), you still have to have the nodes who are on shitty connections updated. If its not decentralized we'll end up with a single or handful of entities controlling the currency which is what we have now.

[Neuro]

But that's not how blockchain works. All nodes within the chain need to have the same ledger. Centralized nodes / Blockchain technology are not able to coexist in the same ecosystem. You can shoehorn it like Ripple has done where they own all the nodes and control the medium of exchange (XRP) but no one outside of investors trusts it for day to day usage.

Even if you have super nodes (similar to Skype's VOIP service), you still have to have the nodes who are on shitty connections updated. If its not decentralized we'll end up with a single or handful of entities controlling the currency which is what we have now.
You don’t think that’s what (((they))) want? Meanwhile (((they))) bought up sufficient amounts to crash the current crypto currencies...

https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/theeconomist-phoenix_get_ready_for_world_currency_by_2018.jpg
They just stoke the fire by throwing in their own fiat...

[Ares]

You don’t think that’s what (((they))) want? Meanwhile (((they))) bought up sufficient amounts to crash the current crypto currencies...

https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/theeconomist-phoenix_get_ready_for_world_currency_by_2018.jpg
They just stoke the fire by throwing in their own fiat...

Oh I'm sure that's what they want. But a number of people in the crypto community are on to their game and are trying to find solutions around what I detailed earlier.

[madfranks]

I voted "Not sure (leaning towards no)" because to me, if cryptos are the future, that means that governments will adopt and use them. I don't see any governments ever adopting crypto as an official government currency. (((They))) spent a century building the fiat/central bank systems that are now in place, systems that give them total control over the money. They're not going to give that up for decentralized currency systems.

[Ares]

I voted "Not sure (leaning towards no)" because to me, if cryptos are the future, that means that governments will adopt and use them. I don't see any governments ever adopting crypto as an official government currency. (((They))) spent a century building the fiat/central bank systems that are now in place, systems that give them total control over the money. They're not going to give that up for decentralized currency systems.

Same answer I provided, mostly from a scalability standpoint. However you also bring up a good point. They will not willingly give up control that they have worked towards for centuries. Decentralization is a tool, but it lacks scalability for solutions due to it being decentralized. Decentralization works well for computers and networks, but not currency transactions. I am still an advocate for crypto currencies, but we have to approach them in a realistic manner. They will not be able to unseat state currencies, at least not likely within our lifetime. Scalability, trust, and usability. Cryptos are still and likely will be for the foreseeable future difficult to use for the computer illiterate.

[madfranks]

Same answer I provided, mostly from a scalability standpoint. However you also bring up a good point. They will not willingly give up control that they have worked towards for centuries. Decentralization is a tool, but it lacks scalability for solutions due to it being decentralized. Decentralization works well for computers and networks, but not currency transactions. I am still an advocate for crypto currencies, but we have to approach them in a realistic manner. They will not be able to unseat state currencies, at least not likely within our lifetime. Scalability, trust, and usability. Cryptos are still and likely will be for the foreseeable future difficult to use for the computer illiterate.

Crypto currencies are here to stay, of that I'm sure, but they're never be the primary currency that most people use for their daily living.

[singular_me]

you can dance on your heads all you want, but money will forever always centralize... it is just a matter of synchronicity and price

((they)) master all the metaphysical aspects of materialism, and laugh hysterically when people think they can bypass Natural Laws. ((they)) know we cannot, but remain in control as long as the ignorance of the Laws persists. Using God's Laws to enslave us all

[Neuro]

I voted "Not sure (leaning towards no)" because to me, if cryptos are the future, that means that governments will adopt and use them. I don't see any governments ever adopting crypto as an official government currency. (((They))) spent a century building the fiat/central bank systems that are now in place, systems that give them total control over the money. They're not going to give that up for decentralized currency systems.

They have realized that crypto’s are their future too, but centralized...

Spain’s Central Bank Report: Managing Monetary Policy Is Easier With Digital Currencies
https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2018/08/spains-central-bank-report-managing-monetary-policy-is-easier-with-digital-currencies/

[madfranks]

They have realized that crypto’s are their future too, but centralized...

Spain’s Central Bank Report: Managing Monetary Policy Is Easier With Digital Currencies
https://www.cryptoglobe.com/latest/2018/08/spains-central-bank-report-managing-monetary-policy-is-easier-with-digital-currencies/

Digital currencies != crypto currencies.

[Neuro]

Digital currencies != crypto currencies.

It is perfect for them every transaction ever in a neat electronic ledger.

Big brother is monitoring you, and taxing you...

And they got an armada of the most brilliant cryptographers to do the work for them by pumping the crypto markets...

[Cebu_4_2]

Fiat has been crypto for years, they just want all in with 'every other' crypto. They made 2.3 trillion disappear the day before 911, that can't happen unless it's crypto.

[Neuro]

Well here is an economist arguing against central banks and governments meddling with independent crypto currencies.

https://www.ccn.com/keep-your-hands-off-cryptocurrency-economist-tells-world-governments/

Never heard about this guy so I don’t know what clout he may or may not have. Can’t say I disagree with him, but my opinion doesn’t count. Rothschilds have done incredibly well with currencies controlled by their central banks monopolies. I doubt they would like to let that go.

Right now I have 2.4 bitcoin cash, worth around $1400 ($575 each), doesn’t really matter too much if it goes down to zero, I’ll just keep it as a fun play. It may be that bitcoin will be worth $100k and bitcoin cash is worth $30k in a year or two, in which case I’ll probably cash it in for something nice, if not no biggie...

[StreetsOfGold]

The popular consensus from those "in the know" in the banking system is that all this inflation/derivatives (worldwide) needs to go somewhere as they will not let all the banks fail so Crypto will be that avenue.
Once this occurs, Crypto prices will soar.
Buy at your own risk though, this is not investment advice, just MHO

[Neuro]

The popular consensus from those "in the know" in the banking system is that all this inflation/derivatives (worldwide) needs to go somewhere as they will not let all the banks fail so Crypto will be that avenue.
Once this occurs, Crypto prices will soar.
Buy at your own risk though, this is not investment advice, just MHO

I agree, it is certainly easier to buy crypto for digital assets vs physical gold, so once next financial meltdown begins it is not entirely impossible that a substantial amount of funds will trickle into bitcoins et al. They may be perceived as much safer than banks and a good vehicle to take your assets anywhere in The World without authorities knowledge. The banks in Cyprus melting down made bitcoin going over $1,000 5 years ago. I wouldn’t discount the possibility a global financial crisis pushing btc over $100k or even the outlandish $1M (that John McAfee has promised to eat his dick if it doesn’t pass before end of 2020). We’ll see!