gnosticism discussion on veritas radio

I found this quite good- guest is John Lamb Lash, author "Not in His Image: Gnostic Vision, Sacred Ecology, and the Future of Belief".

Lash also reco's visiting his site http://www.metahistory.org/sitemap.php which he says has about 24 books on it.

To listen to the interview, visit http://www.veritasshow.com/veritasplayer.html, click on episode 107 John Lamb Lash, then hit play. Advance the playbar about 11 mins to cut through the extensive opening nonsense. About an hour of actual interview.


ETA, pasted from my reply #2,
He was indeed "gently critical" of the Abrahamic monotheisms, which he feels have wrought great destruction upon humanity, as well as the notions of "Salvation" and "The Messiah"-- and "Original Sin" where we're born sinners who need salvation. So devoted, perhaps "dogmatic" Abrahamic monotheists (Christians, DaJooz, and of course the Scary Moozlems) should probably best avoid this interview, as it'll anger you, or certainly challenge your beliefs. If you're open minded, a "seeker", regardless of any religious affiliation, then I think you'll really enjoy this interview. Check the book reviews and the website in the OP for a preview of the subject matter.

I'm not critiquing this as a Christian.

This guy gave me NO insight to the belief system of gnosticism. He even stated that gnostics can't even define "gnosticism." He mostly spoke about Christianity and to a lesser degree Islam. It seems the only uniting belief of gnosticism is anti-Christianity.

Russkie made a post on GIM1 about how the Russian King accepted Orthodox Christianity. The legend has it that the proseletizers of Islam and Catholicism mostly bad mouthed the others. The Orthodox Priest mainly demonstrated the Orthodox method of worship, and that is what sold the king.

As a Christian, I do find him (in his ignorance) trying to tell me what I supposedly believe a bit annoying.

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Originally Posted by RJB

This guy gave me NO insight to the belief system of gnosticism. He even stated that gnostics can't even define "gnosticism." He mostly spoke about Christianity and to a lesser degree Islam. It seems the only uniting belief of gnosticism is anti-Christianity.

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Beginning at 21:00, he's asked about gnosticism, and he notes the 1966 meeting of gnostic scholars in Italy, with the purpose of deciding how to define gnosticism... and the meeting resulted in their being unable to do so. Then he gives his own "workable-definition": he notes that greek word "gnowsis" (sp?) means knowledge. So a gnostic is "one who knows". Next dilemma is what kind of knowledge they know? He then says it's knowledge of the true identity of humanity, and our place in the cosmic order, where we came from, what we are doing on this planet, and how our life on this planet belongs to a design of the cosmic order-- then we have gnowsis: the divine basis of reality. You really have to hear the whole hour (which only represents half of the full interview- gotta pay to hear the rest) where he fleshes that idea out more fully.

He was indeed "gently critical" of the Abrahamic monotheisms, which he feels have wrought great destruction upon humanity, as well as the notions of "Salvation" and "The Messiah"-- and "Original Sin" where we're born sinners who need salvation. So devoted, perhaps "dogmatic" Abrahamic monotheists (Christians, DaJooz, and of course the Scary Moozlems) should probably best avoid this interview, as it'll anger you, or certainly challenge your beliefs. If you're open minded, a "seeker", regardless of any religious affiliation, then I think you'll really enjoy this interview. Check the book reviews and the website in the OP for a preview of the subject matter.

Here's the 4 basic tenets which the 3 Abrahamic faiths hold in common, according to the author interviewed John Lash, and which gnostics are critical of. Roughly transcribing beginning at the 42:30 mark, "Mel" is the host, "John" is the guest:

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John: [...] What they critiqued was the 4 points of the redeemer complex, which are,

1. The world is created by an off-planet Father-God, like an artifact, the way a potter creates a pot.

2. The off-planet Father-God designates a chosen people, to fulfill his will.

3. The off-planet Father-God sends a Messiah, or emissary, to his chosen people, to help them fulfill his plan.

4. Because none of this works out, and humanity doesn't go along with the plan, the off-planet Father-God at the end of time, brings doomsday upon the world, and he inflicts an apocalypse of retribution, taking the chosen ones to heaven, and condemning those who did not follow his orders, to hell.

This is the belief system, this is the core belief system of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It's packaged in different ways in those three religions, but it is the core belief system. And the gnostics, like Hipacia, when they saw this belief system gaining credence in Rome, in Palestine, in Alexandria, in places around the Mediterranean, in the first, second and third century, they came out of the mystery schools where they were teachers, and they said "hey, hold on a minute, let's have an open discussion of this new belief system, in the Redeemer; and they pointed out really devastating things about this belief system, and for that, they were targeted for elimination.

Mel: So much for "thou shalt not kill".

John: So much for "thou shalt not kill", so much for "let's have peaceful coexistence". If Christianity is such a wonderful thing, then why can't people just embrace it and accept it out of their own hearts, and allow any other belief system to coexist along side of it? If it's so much better, well then there's no competition, is there? But there was very serious competition my friend. And I'll tell you, this story has never been told in the way that I tell it. I'm telling one of the most important events of world history, the history of our species, from the point of view of the losers. And that's a story which has got to be told.

Mel: Because history is written by the winners.

John: The winners are taking us, you know? Look at what is happening on the planet right now- there's a really lot of rumors cooking on the internet that we're heading for a very big doomsday scenario. And we know now that these scenarios are all faked, and that religion is used a a pretext for war, and to divide people and to manipulate them, we know that now, we're waking up to that now aren't we? Well I'll tell you, the gnostics saw it coming. The gnostics saw it 1800 years ago, they saw it coming. And they knew, that if humanity's belief system, with these 4 points in it, was imposed on humanity, it would do 2 things. First, it would function as a program of social enslavement. It's not really a religion, it's a program of psycho-social control. And the second thing they realized was that it would lead to terror and confusion and insanity, and that's pretty much where it's leading.

Mel: That's where we are actually.

John: That's where we are. [...]

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Patcolo, thanks for the link to John Lamb Lash, his website and the radio show. Never heard of him before and he is all about a subject I've peripherally been interested in for a long time.

There's a lot to read and think about here, so I'll leave it at that for now.

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Originally Posted by Santa

There's a lot to read and think about here, so I'll leave it at that for now.

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Hope this doesn't get in the way of the deliveries.

Thanks for the link, Pat.

I sent it to some friends in C.R. maybe it'll go viral down there.

here ya go

Thanks for the thanks above.

It's sad but true about GSUS: if you post a thread in the proper subcategory, rather than GD, it magically sees many fewer eyeballs & doesn't spark discussion accordingly. I guess some users just hang out in the GD directory only. Does everyone know about the

Show unread posts since last visit.
Show new replies to your posts.

links at the top? Unread posts is your friend- it produces a cross-subcategory listing of all the most recent posts... "new replies" shows all threads which you've posted a reply in, if they've been updated since you last opened them. Both those links are invaluable! I have both bookmarked with quicklinks near the top of my browser, so I can click them anytime without having to page up to the top of a given GSUS page to access them.

Anyways I thought the gnosticism interview was terrific, my mind's been reeling since I listened and re-listened, even transcribing the lengthy quote in reply 3. I did the whole Catholic/school thing growing up, and have been deprogramming ever since (I give them credit for a good "3 Rs" education though), so that interview was a great leap forward in bringing the current state of our world, and how we got here, into better focus. Lash's point that, "I'm telling one of the most important events of world history, the history of our species, from the point of view of the losers. And that's a story which has got to be told." -- sounds about right, if I'm to believe the perspective he shared about how the Abrahamic faiths evolved.

I'm almost tempted to pry open my wallet and join veritas, to hear the 2nd half of the interview... almost. ;)

"The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it is in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know."~JFK

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I'm almost tempted to pry open my wallet and join veritas, to hear the 2nd half of the interview... almost. Wink

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I hear ya. :o