COIN (new ETF) adds to the tension between bitcoin and gold

There's tension between bitcoin and gold.

Why is gold such a stable holder of value? Why does it have any value? These questions have all been asked and answered and it comes down to agreement. People have constantly agreed to value gold for millennia, so gold has value.

Now enter bitcoin. Why would anybody compare bitcoin to gold? And yet the comparison is made frequently. But of course it's brand new, so we have no history to study.

I feel this tension in myself. I know something bad is coming. I want to put what I have into something that will withstand the coming cataclysm. If I load up my house with gold, it will greatly increase the chances that I'll lose it any number of ways, and maybe my life too.

Bitcoin would allow me to put all the wealth I choose to muster, encrypted and replicated onto thumb drives, hard disks and cloud sites. In that way it's much, much better than gold.

But the obvious question is whether everyone will agree that bitcoin has maintained it's value by the time I need it. And whether the infrastructure will survive the storm intact.

All this speculation will become very relevant later this year when COIN, the Winklevoss Bitcoin ETF is expected to become available for investment. That can't help but drive up the value of bitcoin. And there will also be competition from SecondMarket's BIT ETF.

So if anyone is weighing PMs against bitcoin, the time to decide is rushing toward us.

I'll buy all your gold/silver from you for a FRN over spot so you can purchase those bitcoins.

Call me old fashioned.

Yes, COIN may be ripe for speculation and a fueling of price, particularly when the ETF opens up. But it will be very sensitive to any digital currency security breeches or scandals that are publicized.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

These questions have all been asked and answered and it comes down to agreement. People have constantly agreed to value gold for millennia, so gold has value

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And availability, how people agree has no effect on availability.

Bitcoin's inherent infinite divisibility, while viewed as a dynamic trait, is in an instant its achilles.

If Bitcoin had presence in this our physical world, there would be enough when lined end to end to go around the galaxy twice, and they're adding more loops by the hour. :)

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Originally Posted by Horn

And availability, how people agree has no effect on availability.

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But availability has a big effect on how people agree. That is, if gold were much more available, we wouldn't agree on its current high price.

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Originally Posted by Horn

Bitcoin's inherent infinite divisibility, while viewed as a dynamic trait, is in an instant its achilles.

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Half an ounce of gold is worth half a full ounce of gold. Half a bitcoin is worth half a full bitcoin.

The difference between the two is a matter of convenience. That is, it would be inconvenient to work with a tenth of a gram or smaller of gold. I take it that's your point. But it's solvable. And if we go over $10,000/oz as some are predicting, it will get solved. That probably means coins will be minted as alloys with a tiny percentage of gold. Or maybe assayed specs of pure old will be sold in sealed containers.

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Originally Posted by Horn

And availability, how people agree has no effect on availability.

Bitcoin's inherent infinite divisibility, while viewed as a dynamic trait, is in an instant its achilles.

If Bitcoin had presence in this our physical world, there would be enough when lined end to end to go around the galaxy twice, and they're adding more loops by the hour. :)

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Gold's inherent divisibility is part of what makes it such a good money. You can take one ounce of gold and divide it into 2, 4, 10, 20, 100 parts and each one is worth it's fraction of the whole. Bitcoin does the same, only digitally. I don't see why one is a benefit and the other is a detriment.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

And if we go over $10,000/oz as some are predicting, it will get solved. That probably means coins will be minted as alloys with a tiny percentage of gold. Or maybe assayed specs of pure old will be sold in sealed containers.

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You'll have to do better than adding one more zero, in Bitcoin's case add 8.

Besides the ease of "divisibility creation", (by simply adding water in the form of a merchandiser's written computer pricing script)

No need or even possible way to assay something not visible to the naked eye. Unavailability or over availability negates reason to agree on a price. Though governors try to currently debate a price on CO2 emission and creation, a price on air has yet to be determined.

No resistance to infinite demands = weakness.

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Originally Posted by madfranks

I don't see why one is a benefit and the other is a detriment.

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Of all the inherent weaknesses to discuss at the link, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

I will have to join the wiki to add my achilles in ease of divisibility, so much so that the floppy Bitcoin notion falls flat on a non-existent face even before trying to make the hurdle to a claim of divisibility creation.

Why you ask? We have an infinite number of Litecoin (and other alt. knockoffs) for that.

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Originally Posted by Horn

Of all the inherent weaknesses to discuss at the link, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses

I will have to join the wiki to add my achilles in ease of divisibility, so much so that the floppy Bitcoin notion falls flat on a non-existent face even before trying to make the hurdle to a claim of divisibility creation.

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But each fraction is still worth just a fraction. You can't take two halves of a gold ounce and declare each half to have the value of the full ounce. Same with bitcoins. There is no inflation simply because you can divide into fractions.

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Originally Posted by Horn

Why you ask? We have an infinite number of Litecoin (and other alt. knockoffs) for that.

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We have an infinite amount of gold too, it's called silver, copper, and other metal knockoffs.

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Originally Posted by madfranks

We have an infinite amount of gold too, it's called silver, copper, and other metal knockoffs.

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Who is this we?

And show me these supposed "infinite amounts" of what are finite materials in our reach.

You are a boy in a bubble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-VAi2Xqq8

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Originally Posted by Horn

Who is this we?

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I don't know, the same "we" you brought up first:

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Originally Posted by Horn

We have an infinite number of Litecoin (and other alt. knockoffs) for that.

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Originally Posted by Horn

And show me these supposed "infinite amounts" of what are finite materials in our reach.

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In the same way that the air we breathe, the leaves on the trees, and the sand on the shore is in such abundant supply that everyone can have as much as he wants at no cost. But yes, technically, the earth does have a finite supply of material, so does the solar system, and so does the whole universe.

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Originally Posted by Horn

You are a boy in a bubble.

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To the contrary, I'm actually open to new ideas and innovations.

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Originally Posted by madfranks

I don't know, the same "we" you brought up first

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Your's is an imaginary we, Flash... as there isn't an infinite supply that is as easily divisible/accessible.

Cease from hurling your body out of your bubble and into the void, before knowing the true nature of the universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBfuXXGqFL8

An empty semi-trailer being towed is sometimes referred to as a full load of post holes ; i.e., nothing.

When purchasing a depleted gold mine what the new owner is getting is described as 'the shaft'.

Reality is detected by sight, taste, feel, hearing, or smell. None of these attributes attach to bitcoins.

Imagination is not used to detect reality. Things that are imagined are [in addition to others]
1. the Tooth Fairy
2. the State (any State)
3. snakes on the wall (aka D.T.s)
4. the i plane (mathematics)
5. ownership
6. trusts
7. bitcoins

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Originally Posted by palani

Imagination is not used to detect reality. Things that are imagined are [in addition to others]
1. the Tooth Fairy
2. the State (any State)
3. snakes on the wall (aka D.T.s)
4. the i plane (mathematics)
5. ownership
6. trusts
7. bitcoins

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I get paid in "dollars" by direct deposit to my bank, and I spend most of them by ACH (bill-pay) transactions, or by credit card transactions which I pay of by ACH. So add "dollars" to that list.

You may define the state as imaginary, but if you ignore it (e.g. disregard its laws) it will bite you and cause real pain. Or is pain imaginary too? Maybe Plato or the Matrix is right and everything is imaginary.

One big disadvantage of bitcoin is that arguments against it tend to get very silly. And sadly I seem incapable of ignoring silly arguments. My weakness.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

add "dollars" to that list

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The entire list of things imaginary is unlimited.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

You may define the state as imaginary, but if you ignore it (e.g. disregard its laws) it will bite you and cause real pain.

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The State can cause no pain because it doesn't exist. Things that don't exist are incapable of causing damage.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

I seem incapable of ignoring silly arguments.

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If you detect argument then add this perception to the list of imaginary things. Reason is to reality as argument is to fiction.

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Originally Posted by madfranks

Gold's inherent divisibility is part of what makes it such a good money.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Horn

You'll have to do better than adding one more zero, in Bitcoin's case add 8.

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You're building a case against gold. Money must be divisible. It's a strength of bitcoin that it's so readily divisible. But if the value of gold rises so high that it's impractical to divide it to reasonably valued sizes, that's a weakness of gold.


There's one more point in bitcoin's favor at least worth a mention. I understand some companies are already actively exploring the possibility of mining asteroids for minerals. I don't know if they expect asteroids to have any gold, but why not? If they're able to mine other elements profitably, imagine how profitable gold would be. That would make gold no longer limited.

But bitcoin will always be limited by design. In fact, as individual bitcoins are "lost", the total possible supply drops further below the theoretical maximum, making each remaining coin more valuable. That's something unlikely to ever happen with gold.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

But if the value of gold rises so high that it's impractical to divide it to reasonably valued sizes, that's a weakness of gold.

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This is the strength of Silver.

The only weakness of Precious metals is gold held by banks, and the weak hands that allow it to slip into them. Inflation and deflation held in check by its resistance to divisibility, and the crust of the Earth.

Both requiring a bit more than people simply agreeing with each other whether to touch, or not. Silver is the monetary sweet spot as has been discussed many times. And why nobody is permitted to use it as such by the lords in England.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

But bitcoin will always be limited by design. In fact, as individual bitcoins are "lost", the total possible supply drops further below the theoretical maximum, making each remaining coin more valuable. That's something unlikely to ever happen with gold.

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I'll add the same for gold. As gold is lost to the bankers hoard, the supply drops. If it weren't for price suppression, gold would be valued much higher and soon one day might be.

I can't argue there is opportunity to make money on bitcoin, however, I believe the best quality of bitcoin is anonymity. This is what I've projected bitcoin to lose all along, and it will if it hasn't already. And now that the bankers will control the digital market with 'coin' You can take that to the bank...along with the taxes you will owe and their control over you.
Everything you do will be tracked and the profit carrot that is dangled in front of you will usher it in.
Why do you think there's never been a stink made by the US government about bitcoin...they've been in on it all along.
Far as I know cash and gold are still anonymous.

Like my sig "If you like your bankers, you can keep your bankers, just buy bitcoin!"

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Originally Posted by madfranks

But each fraction is still worth just a fraction. You can't take two halves of a gold ounce and declare each half to have the value of the full ounce. Same with bitcoins. There is no inflation simply because you can divide into fractions.

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Two halves have more "value" combined in the current retail market.

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Originally Posted by osoab

Two halves have more "value" combined in the current retail market.

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Einstein genius level physician of Precious Metals.

This unseen resistance should have a proper nomenclature possibly along the lines of biological cell division.

Precious metal has more inherent cellular value than a single celled organism in Bitcoin amoeba. :)

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Originally Posted by EE_

Why do you think there's never been a stink made by the US government about bitcoin...they've been in on it all along.

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This is fascinating speculation. It has many implications and possibility.

A while ago, I read a blog which presented the case that NSA created bitcoin and purposely used flawed encryption so they could track its use.

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... these complex mathematical coincidences are strong evidence that Bitcoin was not designed by a single lucky person – but by many extremely smart mathematicians and computer programmers over a period of several years. [Private entities] would not be likely to choose the NSA flawed encryption method. In other words, the strange design of Bitcoin has the fingerprints of the NSA all over it.

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The blogger made his point, but I got to wondering why. I don't fully go for either his or your (EE_) logic, but yes I think they're in on it and I think I know why.

After 9/11/01, everyone asked why, oh why, we couldn't have known about the terrorists in time to stop them. "Follow the money," is the phrase we heard. We need to track terrorists transferring money around the world to know where they're going to hit. But Arabs have had an untraceable money transfer network in operation for over a thousand years which terrorists use. It works on trust and person-to-person contact. But it's slow and expensive. What if they could find an anonymous, instant, dirt-cheap way to transfer money around the world? If the terrorist thought it was anonymous and NSA knows it's not, the stage would be set.

And since Congress has been tipped off that they shouldn't hamper bitcoin, they just make noise and threats. It fits. And I'm not even opposed to it (since my credit card purchases and brokerage investments are surely very visible to NSA anyway).

Two things then. One, since the bitcoin code is all open source, anyone with the technical ability should be able to prove one way or another if there are backdoors that allow government tracking.

Two, if you don't trust bitcoin, there are alternative coins (litecoin being the most prominent) which use different proof of work algorithms and were created publicly by known individuals. These coins weren't created by government, unless you think that every single alt-coin developer is secretly a government agent.

The jew-anglo world appreciates any baseless, POP currency it could get its hands on currently because its current one is washed out.

The Asians not so much, though it generated much steam there due to the other washed out currencies. Anything that smells of lesser value in "wallets" of the masses will be tread on only lightly.

When crypto-fanboys tell you that cryptos aren't going away, it should be taken that they aren't going anywhere.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

After 9/11/01, everyone asked why, oh why, we couldn't have known about the terrorists in time to stop them. "Follow the money," is the phrase we heard. We need to track terrorists transferring money around the world to know where they're going to hit. But Arabs have had an untraceable money transfer network in operation for over a thousand years which terrorists use. It works on trust and person-to-person contact. But it's slow and expensive. What if they could find an anonymous, instant, dirt-cheap way to transfer money around the world? If the terrorist thought it was anonymous and NSA knows it's not, the stage would be set.

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This theory is not plausable. Who asked why we couldn't have known? I feel certain a small group did know.

There too much evidence that says 9/11 was no Muslim terrorist attack. Instead of asking where the money went, ask who benefitted most...the answer is obvious. It was not the Muslims....if it was, how did it work out for them? All their countries lay in ruin or are in the process of becoming ruined.

Plus the so called terrorist were trained under the Jewish Saudi's rule in Saudi Arabia. Funny the US never considered going there to investigate?

So that leaves Israel and it's proxy US governemnt. The US government benefitted by expanding it's power over everyone like never could have before.
Israel benefitted by having it's enemies destroyed. 9/11 was also to preserve the Jewish petro-dollar and control over oil.

If Muslim terrorists really wanted to attack US interests, they would have gone straight to the head of the vampire squid, Israel. They could have wiped Israel off the map...then I couldn't have made this arguement.

They probably only wanted to buy time with the petro-dollar until they could get the new digital currency introduced, hence bitcoin. Bitcoin may not be the new digital currency, but it will help get people accustomed to going digital until the new ?Coin is ready.

Slaying of crypto aside, their utility function is a proper one. Speculation investment, would be contained to one that was designed to eat all the others in utility fashion.

As has been presented with the Banker approved Ripple system.

4	http://coinmarketcap.com/static/img/...x16/ripple.png Ripple	$ 31,741,572	$ 0.004060	100,000,000,000 XRP *	$ 245,080	6.17 %

Iffen your morals have no questions as to where they're taking you... Chase will probably purchase down the road and call it a Citi-Ripple.

SnapSwap Launches in Europe

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SnapSwap announced on Thursday the expansion of its operations to Europe. The gateway’s arrival on the Old Continent means Ripple payments can now be made between European countries through SnapSwap EU and major markets like Australia, Canada, China, Latin America, Singapore, New Zealand, and the US.

SnapSwap EU is available to European citizens as well as “users from countries like Brazil, Indonesia, or Kenya”—as long as they can provide the necessary KYC (Know Your Customer) documents, like a passport or international driver’s license, says founder Denis Kiselev. “Because of regulations, we are also allowed to service the rest of the world,” he said, adding that the company is “working under European law and is fully compliant with financial regulations and requirements.”

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What is ripple?

Ripple is an internet protocol for making financial transactions. It has a fully distributed exchange, meaning that any currency, both fiat and digital, can be hooked into the network, and anyone can trade these currencies.
Read more about Ripple

https://ripple.com/wp-content/upload...ipple-map1.png

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Originally Posted by madfranks

Two things then. One, since the bitcoin code is all open source, anyone with the technical ability should be able to prove one way or another if there are backdoors that allow government tracking.

Two, if you don't trust bitcoin, there are alternative coins (litecoin being the most prominent) which use different proof of work algorithms and were created publicly by known individuals. These coins weren't created by government, unless you think that every single alt-coin developer is secretly a government agent.

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Not to mention Darkcoin whose soul purpose of existence is anonymity. The foundation is still being laid, but it holds a LOT of promise with digital anonymity. Now there are also coins who use 11, or 13 different variations of encryption. Darkcoin is also another one it is an X11 type coin. So that one will with that many different layers of cryptography will never be cracked. Not in any of our lifetimes. X13 type coins are brand new this year.

My point in all of this is to supplement what Mad Franks said by saying that if Bitcoin was government created. They are having the unintended consequences of enormous innovation regarding alternative crypto currency methods. I don't buy that it was Government sponsored or created. Satoshi worked with other people to develop this concept. Gavin Anderson who is a member of the Bitcoin foundation worked with him in developing the first alpha protocol.

The key is its decentralized nature. That's the beauty and draw of crypto currencies.

Oh beegeesus, now wait until the all new SR71 Diect X9 version cryptography.

Attachment 6510

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Originally Posted by EE_

I feel certain a small group did know.

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Yes, Able Danger.

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Originally Posted by EE_

All their countries lay in ruin or are in the process of becoming ruined.

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The true believers believe we should all live in the stone age. Their leaders literally lived in caves for a while. You can't ruin a country with bombs according to that line of thinking, you can only make it better by destroying the advances of civilization.

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Originally Posted by EE_

Plus the so called terrorist were trained under the Jewish Saudi's rule in Saudi Arabia.

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So called? Under the what?

Please tell me you write novels. I'm sure they're excellent. I'll read every one.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

Yes, Able Danger.


The true believers believe we should all live in the stone age. Their leaders literally lived in caves for a while. You can't ruin a country with bombs according to that line of thinking, you can only make it better by destroying the advances of civilization.


So called? Under the what?

Please tell me you write novels. I'm sure they're excellent. I'll read every one.

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You believe in government approved fairy tales?

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Originally Posted by Neuro

You believe in government approved fairy tales?

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I don't believe the US economy is "recovering" like government has been reporting.

I don't believe much of what President Obama says.

Tell me, you of Absurdistan, what do you think I believe that you believe is a government fairy tale?

Do you believe Jamie Dimon is ArchBishop of all terrorist organization?

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

Yes, Able Danger.


The true believers believe we should all live in the stone age. Their leaders literally lived in caves for a while. You can't ruin a country with bombs according to that line of thinking, you can only make it better by destroying the advances of civilization.

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Originally Posted by EE_
Plus the so called terrorist were trained under the Jewish Saudi's rule in Saudi Arabia.

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So called? Under the what?

Please tell me you write novels. I'm sure they're excellent. I'll read every one.

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This is widely known:

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The hijackers in the September 11 attacks were 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda, and 15 of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia. The others were from the United Arab Emirates (2), Egypt and Lebanon

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HmeGCigDD0

Will Israel Merge with Saudi Arabia?
Submitted by Veritas Aequitas on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 10:35

On February 1st, 1958, Egypt and Syria merged to become one country: The United Arab Republic. Though the brief political marriage ended in divorce on September 28th, 1961, it set a precedent for potential future Middle Eastern liaisons.

Today, a budding romance between Israel and Saudi Arabia is the talk of the Middle East. The Saudis and Israelis are working together to destabilize Syria and prop up the al-Sisi regime in Egypt. The Saudis and Israelis both strongly oppose letting the “Arab spring” bring democracy to the Middle East. The Saudis and Israelis both want corrupt Arab dictators to rule Bahrain and other countries in the region. The Saudis and Israelis work together whipping up sectarian tensions in a divide-and-conquer strategy aimed at preserving their respective regimes. And both the Saudis and the Israelis are angry at the US for refusing to bomb Syria and then attack Iran.

It seems that the Saudi and Israeli regimes have joined together to pursue the same foreign policy. Since their domestic policies are also similar, the question arises: Why not merge the two countries into a new entity called Saudi Israelia?

http://www.dailypaul.com/303511/will...h-saudi-arabia

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The Jewish tribes of Arabia were ethnic groups professing the Jewish faith that inhabited the Arabian Peninsula before and during the advent of Islam. It is not always clear whether they were originally Israelite in ancestry, genealogically Arab tribes that converted to Judaism, or a mixture of both. In Islamic tradition the Jewish tribes of the Hejaz were seen as the offspring of the ancient Israelites.[1] According to Muslim sources, they spoke a language other than Arabic, which Al-Tabari claims was Persian. This implies they were connected to the major Jewish center in Babylon.[2] Certain Jewish traditions records the existence of nomadic tribes such as the Rechabites that converted to Judaism in antiquity.

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Originally Posted by EE_

This is widely known:

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The hijackers in the September 11 attacks were 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda, and 15 of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia. The others were from the United Arab Emirates (2), Egypt and Lebanon

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Yes. Widely known. It speaks to the level of criminal insanity and filthy evil taught by Saudi's Wahhabi branch of Islam. But it doesn't support any conspiracy theories.

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Originally Posted by EE_

Will Israel Merge with Saudi Arabia?

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That's obviously a joke. The best jokes are based on a solid layer of truth, though I don't even think this is funny. Visiting that daily paul site reveals that most of their stuff is at least whimsical if not an outright joke. ("Fart smells have health benefits"?) Although they do have a Ron Paul video.

The video you posted was an interesting history of Saudi Arabia.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

I don't believe the US economy is "recovering" like government has been reporting.

I don't believe much of what President Obama says.

Tell me, you of Absurdistan, what do you think I believe that you believe is a government fairy tale?

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Do you actually believe the attacks on WTC and Pentagon was directed by Usama Bin Laden and Al Qaida?

Osama was on a remote cave dialysis system , like Jamie now has throat cancer.

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Dimon sent a letter to bank executives and employees Tuesday saying the cancer is curable and his health outlook is excellent, because the disease was detected at an early stage.

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insert/splice sympathy for devil vid.

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Originally Posted by Neuro

Do you actually believe the attacks on WTC and Pentagon was directed by Usama Bin Laden and Al Qaida?

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I believe anyone who thinks otherwise if a fruit loop.

Why is it easier to believe our government, and the Bush Administration at that, would kill thousands of innocent people than to believe it was done by a psychotic band of savages who profess a love of death and a hate of free civilization?

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

I believe anyone who thinks otherwise if a fruit loop.

Why is it easier to believe our government, and the Bush Administration at that, would kill thousands of innocent people than to believe it was done by a psychotic band of savages who profess a love of death and a hate of free civilization?

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Then you would be Toucan Sam on this board.

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Originally Posted by osoab

Then you would be Toucan Sam on this board.

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Did he ever make use of the Larry's Jewish Lightnin Skincare treatment?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNtMZ0jEZwM

The comparisons and parallels to Gene Rosenthall are astounding.

Toucan Sam was seen flying towards the Pentagon, nobody knows what to do.

Its only the primary intelligence center for the military industrial complex this last century.

A Stand Down order has been issued while he approaches, all Star Trek fleet and GSUS crew members are requested to comply.

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Originally Posted by KenJackson

I believe anyone who thinks otherwise if a fruit loop.

Why is it easier to believe our government, and the Bush Administration at that, would kill thousands of innocent people than to believe it was done by a psychotic band of savages who profess a love of death and a hate of free civilization?

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Pretty funny to think the muslims could plan such an elaborate attack and not see how badly it would play out for the muslim world by leaving all their countries in shambles...and how good it would turn out for the Jews and US government.
The US government gained enormous power and Israel has all it's enemies bombed back to the stone age.
Syria and Iran were supposed to be taken down by now, it just didn't go accordingly to plan...yet.
They're working on it though.