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Thread: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

  1. #31
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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    https://www.sott.net/article/411326-...ts-complicated

    Are Jews required to burn churches? After Notre Dame, Israeli rabbi says, "It's complicated"

    Yossi Gurvitz
    Mondoweiss
    Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:57 UTC



    https://www.sott.net/image/s25/518520/large/758989.jpg

    Prominent settler rabbi, Shlomo Aviner, ruled today (Tuesday) that burning churches outside of the Land of Yisrael "isn't our job for now", but as for the Holy Land, "the issue is more complicated". Aviner seemed to leave the question of burning churches in the Holy Land to the questioner.

    Today, after the fire in Notre Dame Cathedral, Aviner was asked the following question:

    "The great Christian Church in Paris is on fire. Should we feel sorry for that, or should we rejoice, as it [the cathedral] is idolatry, which is a mitzvah to burn?"

    The questioner is here referring to the Halachic ruling that churches are considered idolatry, and should be destroyed.

    Aviner replied as follows:
    "This isn't our job for now. There is no mitzvah to seek out churches abroad and burn them down. In our holy land, however, the issue is more complicated. Indeed, the Satmar Rabbi noted one of his arguments against immigrating to Israel, that here it is indeed a mitzvah to burn churches; and by not doing so, those [immigrating to Israel] are committing a sin. Yet Rabbi Menachem Mendel Kasher, in his book 'The Great Period', rejected the Satmar Rabbi's words, citing a midrash, forbidding burning [churches], since if we burn, we'll have to rebuild, and it's a greater sin to rebuild [a church] than leave it standing. [Here Aviner cites his own book vs. the Satmar Rabbi] That church in Paris, too, will surely be rebuilt."
    (Oh, yes: American Jewish readers, I probably need to stress this - this is not a parody or a satire. This is actual rabbinical discourse in 2019 Israel.)

    Aviner is touching here gingerly on a hot issue (pardon the pun) in his sector: Should churches be burned? Several churches have been burnt in Israel in the last few years, and the police have been spectacularly useless in capturing the arsonists. In several cases, the arson was accompanied by slogans familiar from 'price tag' attacks in the West Bank (mostly along the lines of Jewish vengeance). Four years ago, Lehava leader Benzi Gopstein, asked whether he supported church burnings, said "of course, what's the question?" His words caused uproar. Later Gopstein was indicted on incitement to violence charges, but church burning wasn't one of them.

    Aviner, and other Orthodox rabbis, are in a bind here. Several immensely important rabbinic rulers, most prominent among them Maimonides, ruled that churches are places of idolatry and ought to be destroyed. The rulings are very clear. However, to support those rulings today would lead to violence, probably to a rise in anti-Semitism, and will jeopardize the alliance between the settler movement and the evangelical movement. There is also a chance of getting prosecuted for incitement for hatred, which is a crime in Israel - but then again, the law has a special exemption for "religious studies", and the prosecution has been very leery of prosecuting rabbis for hate speech, making "religious discussions" the prime way of legally-protected incitement.

    Note that Aviner is walking a very tight rope here. He is dismissing out hand the burning of churches abroad, but when it comes to burning churches in Israel, he quotes two sources, not giving his own ruling. The fact that he has to walk this tightrope says volumes about the discourse among his followers and students.

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Horn View Post
    Me too, with work going on at the time, safeguards would only be tripled.

    Hell with the state of regulation the world lives in there'd probably be 2 fireman at the site just waiting like Rhinos to stamp out any accelerated fire.
    That expert said there were two people at all times on 24-hour fire watch, which is both standard for repair/maintenance of buildings while the fire suppression/alarm systems are down. I've worked on projects where the local fire dept required buildings to be on 24-hour fire watch until we were done repairing the building. If they provided even bare-minimum standard fire watch, there's no way this was an accident. And in fire investigations (which I do know a thing or two about), the very first thing you work to rule out is arson/intentional burning. And yet in this case the authorities were assuring us all that no foul play was involved before an investigation could even have started!
    "Liberty is so creative, and the government is so stupid, that I’m very optimistic about the future"
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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    the very first thing you work to rule out is arson/intentional burning.
    They did! And in record time! What are you fucking complaining about??

    Whiner.
    "A man is to be held accountable for the thoughts he chooses to entertain." --Richard Alan Miller

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by madfranks View Post

    I've worked on projects where the local fire dept required buildings to be on 24-hour fire watch until we were done repairing the building. If they provided even bare-minimum standard fire watch, there's no way this was an accident. And in fire investigations (which I do know a thing or two about), the very first thing you work to rule out is arson/intentional burning. And yet in this case the authorities were assuring us all that no foul play was involved before an investigation could even have started!
    https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....7L._SX425_.jpg https://w3.chabad.org/media/images/972/cWgu9723564.jpg






    I'm the infamous Fred of GIM - Jewboo kindly turned over his account to me.

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    Joos got their little beanies and funny and strange little boxes strapped to their foreheads, and moozie women got their head coverings, so I'm just going to go ahead and join the Cult,...er,...the CHURCH of the Flying Spaghetti Monster so I can wear FSM headgear. Yeah, that's right, I'm gonna become a Pastafarian!

    https://w3.chabad.org/media/images/972/cWgu9723564.jpg

    Like this, I plan on wearing it everywhere -

    https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/b9d...=1680&fit=crop

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1..._960/image.jpg

    https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/mul...e_3259312b.jpg

    https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0...fbb731c7343361

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/3e...86b740633e.jpg

    https://www.google.com/search?safe=o...k79eUg#imgrc=_
    "A man is to be held accountable for the thoughts he chooses to entertain." --Richard Alan Miller

    "If both the past and the external world exist only in the mind, and if the mind itself is controllable-what then?" --George Orwell

    "It's not a matter of what is true (reality) that counts but a matter of what is perceived to be true (reality)." --Henry Kissinger

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    So, looks like the "official story/excuse" is going to be some kind of electrical short circuit nonsense...

    https://www.rt.com/news/456943-notre...short-circuit/

    "Investigators believe that an electrical short-circuit likely caused the fire that partially destroyed Paris’ iconic Notre Dame Cathedral, a French official has said. An earlier investigation too found no evidence of foul play."

    But, again, that doesn't fit with what this guy had to say:

    https://www.sott.net/article/411378-...ient-oak-beams

    Translated by Sott.net
    https://www.sott.net/image/s25/51864...Notre_Dame.jpg
    Former chief architect/engineer of Notre Dame Cathedral, who oversaw renovation of its electrical wiring and installed a modern fire detection sytem in 2010



    The head engineer responsible for the Notre Dame site had this to say on French TV two days ago about the 'accident' on Monday:
    "With really old oak like that, you'd need a lot of smaller wood to first get the fire hot enough for the ancient oak beams to burn.

    In 2010 we replaced all the electrical wiring, so there's no way this was sparked by a short-circuit. We put new wiring in place according to modern standards. And we went even further; we installed state-of-the-art fire protection and detection systems in the cathedral.

    At all times, there are always two men on standby in the Cathedral, day and night, to go investigate anything the moment an alarm goes off, then if necessary to call the fire emergency services.

    I am really stunned that this [the fire] has happened."

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    Official BS short circuit nonsense posted here too: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...-short-circuit

    commenters not buying it

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    More added to the story at this link: https://www.sott.net/article/411378-...ient-oak-beams


    That's not all. Mouton told French construction magazine BatiActu the following:
    "In 40 years of experience, I have never heard of a fire like this.

    It would take a really combustible load at the start of such a fire for it to rapidly develop into the disaster we saw. Also, oak is a particularly fire-resistant wood.

    The fire detection/protection system installed in the cathedral was of the highest level. It was a very expensive undertaking, but it enabled us to quickly ascertain whether a fire had started somewhere. Additionally, we had many old wooden doors replaced by fire-doors.

    We also drastically reduced the number of electrical appliances throughout the building, and completely forbid them in the attic."

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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Amanda View Post
    More added to the story at this link: https://www.sott.net/article/411378-...ient-oak-beams


    That's not all. Mouton told French construction magazine BatiActu the following:
    "In 40 years of experience, I have never heard of a fire like this.

    It would take a really combustible load at the start of such a fire for it to rapidly develop into the disaster we saw. Also, oak is a particularly fire-resistant wood.

    The fire detection/protection system installed in the cathedral was of the highest level. It was a very expensive undertaking, but it enabled us to quickly ascertain whether a fire had started somewhere. Additionally, we had many old wooden doors replaced by fire-doors.

    We also drastically reduced the number of electrical appliances throughout the building, and completely forbid them in the attic."
    A lot of folks don't understand how advanced modern fire protection systems (both passive and active) are nowadays, and and how detailed and strict modern fire codes are. A building like this should have nothing short of the best system available in the world. The mere fact that a fire happened in a building like this is evidence of foul play. I'm still shocked those in charge aren't demanding every possibility be investigated thoroughly, including the possibility of terrorism. Instead it's like they don't even care.
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    Re: Paris: Notre-Dame Cathedral Burns, Charred Timbers of Medieval Spire Collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by midnight rambler View Post
    They did! And in record time! What are you fucking complaining about??

    Whiner.
    Right. On the news, while live footage of the church burning was playing, the doofus on Fox news said that we don't know much about the fire, but what we do know is that it wasn't arson or terrorism. 9 out of 10 viewers are content with that explanation. "Oh, it wasn't arson or terrorism, the man on the news said so."

    And then when he got a guest on from France who said they've had hundreds of moslem attacks on churches in the last few years, and this may be another, the asshole cut him off!
    "Liberty is so creative, and the government is so stupid, that I’m very optimistic about the future"
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