North American Electrical Grid going 'Stuxnet' as part of 'experiment'

[Dogman]

In the case of the power grid you have MANY generators tied together. One generator picks up more load than the other by leading in phase. On the other hand lagging phase results in less load on the generator relative to others on the grid. While phase can change slightly all generators operate at the same frequency.

Motors operate with slip. Generators ... not so much.

One class of motors do not slip- synchronous, they stay locked to the rotating magnetic field.

[Mouse]

If you are interested in the actual facts, you can go to the grid operators. Here is one link:

http://www.midwestmarket.org/page/Area+Control+Error

ACE is area control error where the source/sink is out of balance. There is also TCE which is time control error, brought about by an imbalance of phase. The things that are measured are ACE TCE and other disturbance control metrics. There are numerous other things that keep all this together including Phase Angle, operating reserves, inadvertant exchanges and multiples of etc. If you are interested in the security of the "grid" NERC is your goto site.

http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=2|20

All of this means not shit to your alarm clock. When you get rolling blackouts/brownouts and finally blackout.....then it will sink in.

The grid is alive and well-managed as best as monkey minds can manage.

A well placed internet attack would essentially destroy the planet.

I have done a lot of CIP work and the most vulnerable spot in the entire US energy infrastructure is www.oati.com. If their stuff went offline North America would go offline. .

Sleep well.

edited to not be suicided

[keehah]

Thanks guys for the good explanations.

I offer a vapid conjector that riffs on the topic of hell breaking loose when this starts.

XTC: Spinning Top (White Music 1978 )

[Neuro]

How about if the experiment in changing the grid frequency, starts an oscillation of the frequency, that spirals out of controll, iow the oscillation in the beginning is small, but because of inertia in the system the oscillations grow bigger and bigger with higher frequency, that could wreak havoc, in generators and distribution stations, couldn't it?

[7th trump]

In the case of the power grid you have MANY generators tied together. One generator picks up more load than the other by leading in phase. On the other hand lagging phase results in less load on the generator relative to others on the grid. While phase can change slightly all generators operate at the same frequency.

Motors operate with slip. Generators ... not so much.

Power lines run a three phase cycle. All the phases are 60hz (60 revolutions per second). Each phase is 120 degree's off from the other making a total of 360 degree's.
I dont see how phase makes a difference as much as a generator is slowly cutting current done for another gen to maintain or increase current (picking up the load).
You would see the phase shift if one generator is slightly off from the other on an o-scope when testing an outlet and I've never heard of it nor see it.
Doesnt mean its not there just never heard of it.
I'll ask one of the guys in the power house here where I work if they phase shift a gen set (they have three 14,800v generators. well two now....one shorted out two weekends ago and made one hell of a fireball. nobody was hurt as the genset shuts itself down immediately) to pick up more load or visa versa.

[7th trump]

How about if the experiment in changing the grid frequency, starts an oscillation of the frequency, that spirals out of controll, iow the oscillation in the beginning is small, but because of inertia in the system the oscillations grow bigger and bigger with higher frequency, that could wreak havoc, in generators and distribution stations, couldn't it?

Impossible to change grid frequency.
If the frequency changes so will the speed of motors say on your refrigerator and your lights in your house will either get dimmer or brighter depending on which way the frequency changes. Motors will burn up if the frequency changes drastically.
A 50hz european motor will not properly run on American 60hz system and eventually smoke.

[Awoke]

Every generating station in North America is built to produce electricity at 60Hz.

[palani]

Power lines run a three phase cycle. All the phases are 60hz (60 revolutions per second). Each phase is 120 degree's off from the other making a total of 360 degree's.
I dont see how phase makes a difference as much as a generator is slowly cutting current done for another gen to maintain or increase current (picking up the load).
You would see the phase shift if one generator is slightly off from the other on an o-scope when testing an outlet and I've never heard of it nor see it.
Doesnt mean its not there just never heard of it.
I'll ask one of the guys in the power house here where I work if they phase shift a gen set (they have three 14,800v generators. well two now....one shorted out two weekends ago and made one hell of a fireball. nobody was hurt as the genset shuts itself down immediately) to pick up more load or visa versa.

By phase I am referring to very small phase ANGLES between two sine waves. Lets say you have two generators. Each generate a sine wave. One generator is leading the other by 1 degree. If they are both strapped to a transmission line in parallel they provide different amounts of power. In this simple example they might even provide the same amount of power to the transmission line.

Now say one generator is 10 MW while the other is 500 kw and the line load is 5 MW. Obviously both generators don't pick up equal share of power. If the operator wants the 500 kw generator to operate at rated load and the 10 MW generator to operate at 4.5 MW he gooses the prime mover of the 500 kw generator slightly. When he does this the power fed into the transmission line by the smaller generator increases and the power provided by the larger generator decreases. Both generators are going to run at 60 hz but a very small phase angle is introduced into the output of one generator relative to the other. This is one way generators share load. The larger generator is not going to let the smaller generator take up the entire load. The two generators are coupled together through the network and the power the prime mover is capable of providing is a physical limitation. Another way to change the load ratio between generators is to increase or decrease the excitation (not intending to mislead that phase angle is the ONLY way).

[Awoke]

By phase I am referring to very small phase ANGLES between two sine waves.

Both generators are going to run at 60 hz but a very small phase angle is introduced into the output of one generator relative to the other. This is one way generators share load. The larger generator is not going to let the smaller generator take up the entire load. The two generators are coupled together through the network and the power the prime mover is capable of providing is a physical limitation.

It's been years since I have thought about this stuff, but as far as I remember, if the generators are properly synchronized, the angle of lead VS lag between the two may be calculable, but for all intents and purposes it is negligable isn't it?

[mick silver]

lets all say .......... BACK OUTS A COMING