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Thread: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

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    Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    We had a nice long discussion several years ago on this topic on the old goldismoneyforum, and I can see it is time to revisit this topic. So join in.

    "Whenever our English versions use the term "everlasting" or "eternal" in the Old Testament, it is normally from the original Hebrew word, olam. This word means "to hide, keep secret, obscure." It is best expressed by the English word, "obscurity." In actual usage, the word refers to an INDEFINITE period of time, but NOT eternal. It is simply AN AGE. The end of that age is obscure and generally unknown, but not endless.

    For example, in Jonah 2:6, the prophet prays for deliverance out of the belly of the great fish. He says:

    6 I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its bars was around me forever [olam], But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.

    Did Jonah remain in the belly of the fish for eternity? Obviously not, or he would have been recycled fish bait many times over. In the darkness he had no concept of time, and so those three days and nights are described as being olam, an obscure amount of time.

    Another example where olam is clearly a limited period of time, or an age, is found in Exodus 21:6. It specifies that a servant may serve his master "for ever" (olam). This is not for eternity, but only for the remaining life time of the servant. No one could know how long the servant would remain alive, so the amount of time was indefinite, or obscure.

    One very interesting verse is Psalm 45:6. It shows that there is time AFTER olam. This proves beyond doubt that olam itself cannot refer to eternity, because when the Psalmist wished to express eternity, he had to say "olam va ad," or "the age and beyond."

    6 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever [olam va ad, "the age and beyond"]; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.

    There are many other examples where olam is obviously a limited period of time, but we do not wish to bore the reader unduly. We shall simply list a few from the Psalms in the event that some readers may wish to study this further: Psalm 78:66; 79:13; 86:12; 89:1; 110:4; 112:6; 115:18.

    The New Testament books were written in Greek or, in some cases, in Aramaic and then immediately translated by the authors into Greek. The New Testament authors often quote verses from the Old Testament, and when they do, they usually quote from the Septuagint. This was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that was used widely during the time of Christ and the Apostles.

    In Hebrews 1:8 the author quotes from Psalm 45:6. In this verse, olam is rendered by the Greek word aion. Compare also Hebrews 5:6 and Psalm 110:4. This is the closest Greek equivalent and therefore was used in the Septuagint. And so we can safely say that aion is meant to convey the same meaning as the Hebrew concept of olam.

    But what about the Greek word itself? Does aion really mean an age, or a limited period of time? Yes, it does. It does not really carry the idea of "obscurity," but like olam, means an age, or eon.

    One of the most obvious New Testament passages where aion refers to an age is found in Matthew 13, where Jesus interprets His own parables. In order to show the contrast between aion and kosmos, we will begin with verse 38.

    38 And the field is the world [kosmos]; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age [aion]; and the reapers are angels. 40 "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age [aion].

    The King James Version says "the end of the WORLD," but most reference Bibles have a marginal reference to explain that verses 39 and 40 should read "AGE," rather than "world." How do they know? Simply because the Greek word is aion, rather than kosmos. All translators know that aion refers to an age, including the New American Standard Bible, which we quoted above. It is a reference to a limited period of TIME.

    Ages have both a beginning and an end. Hebrews 11:3 tells us that ages have beginning points:

    3 By faith we understand that the worlds [aionas, "ages"] were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

    The NASB above mistranslated aionas in this instance. Aionas is simply the plural of aion in the Greek. It says God "framed" the ages; therefore, ages had a beginning. This is witnessed also by Hebrews 1:2.

    2 In these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world [aionas, "ages"].

    We know that Jesus Christ (the Logos of John 1:1) did indeed create the world, but this is not what the author of Hebrews was telling us. He was informing us that Jesus created the ages of time. Time simply did not exist before creation. Time is a created thing, just like space. In fact, Paul makes reference to a promise of God that He made BEFORE time began. It is found in Titus 1:2.

    2 In the hope of eternal [aionian] life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago [pro chronon aionion, "before the ages began"].

    It is truly unfortunate that the NASB translators did not understand the doctrine of the ages. If they had rendered the passage as it reads, rather than trying to interpret it by their own understanding, it would be easier for the average reader to see how God created time and divided it into various ages. Here is where a more literal translation would be helpful. For example, Young's Literal Translation of Titus 1:2 reads,

    2 upon hope of life age-enduring, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages.

    Rotherham's Emphasized Bible renders this verse,

    2 In hope of life age-abiding; which God who cannot lie promised before age-during times.

    These renderings are more accurate, even though they are a little more difficult to read because they are so literal. Easy-reading versions such as the NASB certainly have their place in modern society, but the serious Bible student should also have a literal translation at his or her disposal in order to filter out the translator's bias.

    Titus 1:2 (above) also makes reference to God's promise to us, which is the hope of aionian life. Many have assumed that this is a reference to immortality itself, and this is why it is so often rendered "eternal life." But strictly speaking, this is not so. Aionian life is a specific promise of immortality IN THE TABERNACLES AGE, given to those who inherit Life in the first resurrection. As we saw in Chapter One, a few believers will inherit life at the first resurrection; but most believers will have to wait for the general resurrection. Paul makes reference to the first resurrection in Phil. 3:10-14.

    10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection [exanastasis] from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    The "upward call of God" that Paul speaks of in Philippians 3:14 is to receive Life in the first resurrection at the beginning of the Tabernacles, NOT at the general resurrection, at the end of the thousand years.

    How do we know this? Because in Philippians 3:11 Paul describes this higher calling as being the "out-resurrection" (exanastasis). It is the only time in the entire New Testament that Paul puts an "ex" in front of the usual word for resurrection (anastasis). It is his way of differentiating this greater resurrection from the general resurrection.

    The Greek word translated "upward" in the NASV above is ano. It means high, upward, or above. When the word is used of countries, it means inland, or up from the coast. When the word is used of time, it means FORMER, or formerly. And so, when Paul uses the term to describe the prize of the UPWARD (high) calling of God, he is most likely telling us that there are two resurrections: the former and the latter, or the first and the general resurrection. The prize is to attain to the former, or first resurrection.

    All through the New Testament we find countless references to "eternal life." Yes, of course we will inherit eternal life, or immortality. But the thrust of this phrase is to show us a better resurrection, wherein we may inherit life during the Tabernacles Age PRIOR TO the time of the new heavens and the new earth.

    We should understand the Scriptures through Hebrew eyes, not through our modern English eyes. In the Hebrew concept, it was correctly believed that we would be resurrected at the beginning of the Tabernacles Age. The Messiah would come to rule that Kingdom, and His people would rule with Him. In other words, they would be given aionian life, "Age-abiding life," or life pertaining specifically to the Tabernacles Age.

    I have found no evidence that the prophets knew clearly of more than one resurrection back in the Old Testament era, any more than they knew there would be a Pentecostal Age before the Tabernacles Age. This was something that was to be revealed with Jesus and the Apostles. And when they did reveal it, they made it clear (as we saw in Chapter One) that those who attain to that high calling would be given life 1,000 years BEFORE the rest of the believers.

    Consequently, we find references like Luke 12:46 which appears to teach that believers ("servants") who do not watch for His coming will not inherit "eternal life." In reality, it merely says that such people will not inherit the first resurrection. They will not have the privilege of ruling with Christ in immortality and incorruption during the Tabernacles Age. And so we are everywhere exhorted to strive to inherit aionian life, which is the real prize (Phil. 3:14).

    In Luke 1:33 we find that "OF His kingdom there shall be NO END." If Luke had used the term aionian here, he would have been incorrect. The things OF the kingdom shall truly be everlasting, not age-lasting. But Jesus' reign lasts only until all enemies are subdued, including death itself (1 Cor. 15:25-28). At that point the Kingdom is turned over to the Father, and the perfected universe enters a timeless realm of which we know little."
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    The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    I don't know the specifics of what the final state of the unsaved are, but, I know that eternal separation from God is not something to be longed for, nor even "settled for." I do tend towards the annihilationist position, knowing God's nature of perfect justice and perfect mercy.
    The night has come upon us, and we have but two choices: to fear it, or to face it bravely while looking to the Light that cannot be overcome. John 8:12

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    I don't know the specifics of what the final state of the unsaved are, but, I know that eternal separation from God is not something to be longed for, nor even "settled for." I do tend towards the annihilationist position, knowing God's nature of perfect justice and perfect mercy.
    If God could save everyone, would He do it?

    http://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/t...yone-would-he/
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Here you go messianicdruid,

    (1 Tim 2:1-6)
    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
    2
    For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
    3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

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    Unobtanium crimethink's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    If God could save everyone, would He do it?
    Yes, He would, but most men (and women) don't want to be saved. And God honors that choice.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    The night has come upon us, and we have but two choices: to fear it, or to face it bravely while looking to the Light that cannot be overcome. John 8:12

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Make me one with everything.
    -- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    The King James Version says "the end of the WORLD," but most reference Bibles have a marginal reference to explain that verses 39 and 40 should read "AGE," rather than "world."
    The KING JAMES BIBLE is a PERFECT English translation!!
    Why?
    God DIRECTED and ORDAINED IT with the men HE had do the translation!

    Bible critics (like this one) ALWAYS, with NO exception end up in heresy of some kind, NO exceptions!!
    These arm chair "scholar" wannabes always think (in their puny mind) they know more about translation of Hebrew, Koine Greek and aramic into English than the King James Translators which GOD PUT IN PLACE for this VERY JOB!!
    Hello?!?!
    Here's their bio which absolutely TROUNCES on the BEST "scholars" living today!!
    In fact, there is just NO COMPARISON, it's not even FAIR to compare!!

    https://www.scionofzion.com/kjvtransqual.htm


    If you believe the King James Bible has even ONE error, not YOUR opinion of what you think is an error but a VIABLE PROVABLE ERROR

    Post it!!

    Not a copy and paste of some list of so called errors which have been already answered ad nauseum by Bible believers but ONE which YOU FOUND!
    I have had this offer open for over 30 years and not ONE person has EVER shown one!
    Murder was the Catholic answer - Pope Francis

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetsOfGold View Post
    The KING JAMES BIBLE is a PERFECT English translation!!
    Why?
    God DIRECTED and ORDAINED IT with the men HE had do the translation!
    Are you saying King James was GOD? It was a government-issue bible. Was every translation before it wrong?
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetsOfGold View Post
    The KING JAMES BIBLE is a PERFECT English translation!!
    The statement of an idolator.

    The King James is the most perfect - it not "perfect." If it were, it would proclaim the Name of Yahweh at every opportunity. Yet, instead, it follows the Talmud's guideline, and uses "LORD" in place of the Name of Yahweh in almost all circumstances.

    The Bible is NOT "the Word of God." It tells us about the Word of God - who is Jesus Christ Himself (John 1:1).

    After 406 years, however, the King James remains the most reliable in English, since it was not subjected to the active and Hell-bent anti-Christ Bolshevist political bias we have witnessed in the last century or so.
    The night has come upon us, and we have but two choices: to fear it, or to face it bravely while looking to the Light that cannot be overcome. John 8:12

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Are you saying King James was GOD? It was a government-issue bible. Was every translation before it wrong?
    Those who worship printed works fail to understand the most essential aspects of the Word of God have been fully-accessible in universal language to every man who is open to God and His Word...via the Holy Spirit and that intrinsic programming God placed there from the beginning (Romans 1:20).

    Books are extra tools for the glorification of God and edification of man. The vast majority of folks in the almost 2000 years since Christ never read the Bible...because they didn't have access to it.
    The night has come upon us, and we have but two choices: to fear it, or to face it bravely while looking to the Light that cannot be overcome. John 8:12

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