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Thread: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    The Bible is NOT "the Word of God." It tells us about the Word of God - who is Jesus Christ Himself (John 1:1).
    Thank You for this.

    The question is "Does "all" mean all and does "every" mean every.

    "Every knee shall bend and every tounge shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father."

    You can ignore the mistranslations of "olam" and "aion" but unending punishment/torment does not jibe with "all shall be made alive" and "every tounge shall confess". But it's not just me:

    Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible

    Matt. 25:46: Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word (aionion) aionios -- it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and an ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:3)--strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite."

    The Encyclopedia Dictionary of the Bible (Catholic Bible Dictionary), p. 693

    ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gn. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as "forever," means in itself no more than "for an indefinitely long period." Thus, me olam does not mean "from eternity" but "of old" (Gn. 6:4, etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam.

    Dr. F.W. Farrar, The Eternal Hope, p. 198

    That the adjective is applied to some things which are "endless" does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant "endless," and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd.

    Dr. F.W. Farrar, Mercy and Judgment, p. 378

    Since aion meant "age," aionios means, properly, "belonging to an age," or "age-long," and anyone who asserts that it must mean "endless" defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant "eternity," which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek-- aionios could still mean only "belonging to eternity" and not "lasting through it."

    Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 1, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels

    There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity.

    (Vol. III, p. 369) Eternal, everlasting--nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come into the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes.

    The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. IV, p. 643

    Time: The O.T. and the N.T. are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14).

    Lange's Commentary American Edition, Vol. V, p. 48

    On Ecclesiastes 1:4. The preacher, in contending with the universalist, or restorationist, would commit an error, and, it may be, suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words, aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that, of themselves, they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration.

    Dr. MacKnight

    I must be so candid as to acknowledge that the use of these terms, "forever," "eternal," "everlasting," shows that they who understand these words in a limited sense when applied to punishment put no forced interpretation upon them.

    The Parkhurst Lexicon

    Olam (aeon) seems to be used much more for an indefinite than for an infinite time.

    G. Campbell Morgan, God's Methods With Men, pp. 185-186

    Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end.

    The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII, p. 96

    Under the instruction of those great teachers, many other theologians believed in universal salvation; and indeed the whole Eastern Church until after 500 A.D. was inclined to it. Doederlein says that "In proportion as any man was eminent in learning in Christian antiquity, the more did he cherish and defend the hope of the termination of future torments." Many more church historians could be quoted with similar observations.

    Philippson, Israel Religionslehre (11:255)

    The Rabbi teach no eternity of hell torments; even the greatest sinners were punished for generations.

    Dr. Alford Plumer, An Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, pp. 351-352

    It is often pointed out that "eternal" (aionios) in "eternal punishment" must have the same meaning as in "eternal life." No doubt, but that does not give us the right to say that "eternal" in both cases means "endless."

    Dr. Edward Plumptre (Eschatologist)

    I fail to find, as is used by the Greek Fathers, any instance in which the idea of time duration is unlimited.

    The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 15, p. 485

    It is possible that "aeonian" may denote merely indefinite duration without the connotation of never ending.

    G. T. Stevenson, Time and Eternity

    (Page 63) Since, as we have seen, the noun aion refers to a period of time, it appears very improbable that the derived adjective aionios would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writing to show that such a concept was expressed by this term.

    (Page 72) In 1 Cor. 15:22-29 the inspired apostle to the Gentiles transports his readers' thoughts far into the future, beyond the furthest point envisaged elsewhere in holy writ. After outlining the triumph of the Son of God in bringing all creation under His benign control, Paul sets forth the consummation of the divine plan of the ages in four simple, yet infinitely profound words, "God all in all." This is our God, purposeful, wise, loving, and almighty, His Son our Lord a triumphant Savior, Who destroys His enemies by making them friends.

    Jeremy Taylor, author of Systematic Hellology, which advocates the common belief in eternal torment, later writes a modified view in Jeremy Taylor's Works, Vol. III, p. 43.

    Though the fire is everlasting, not all that enters it is everlasting . . . . "The word everlasting signifies only to the end of its period.

    Dr. Nigel Turner, Christian Words, p. 457

    All the way through, it is never feasible to understand aionios as everlasting.

    Dr. (Prof.) Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament, Vol. IV

    (Page 59) The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting." aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Out of the 150 instances in the LXX (Septuagint), four-fifths imply limited duration.

    (Page 291, about 2 Tim. 1:9) "Before the world began" (pro chronon aionion) Lit. Before eternal times. If it is insisted that aionion means everlasting, this statement is absurd. It is impossible that anything should take place before everlasting times.

    Charles H. Welch, editor of The Berean Expositor, wrote in An Alphabetical Analysis, Vol. I

    (Page 52) What we have to learn is that the Bible does not speak of eternity. It is not written to tell us of eternity. Such a consideration is entirely outside the scope of revelation.

    (Page 279) Eternity is not a Biblical theme.

    Dr. R.F. Weymouth, The New Testament in Modern Speech, p. 657

    Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belonging to" the aeons or ages."

    And what of the early church leaders who taught that reconciliation would become universal?
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    The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    If you're offended by any of my posts tough shit!
    "Politicians Are Like Diapers, They Should Be Changed Often, And For The Same Reason"
    If you're not prepared for what's coming it's already too late!
    Niggers will never be satisfied!!

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by StreetsOfGold View Post
    If you believe the King James Bible has even ONE error, not YOUR opinion of what you think is an error but a VIABLE PROVABLE ERROR

    Post it!!

    I have had this offer open for over 30 years and not ONE person has EVER shown one!
    How do you differentiate between an error and my opinion of an error?

    What I have posted is not a "list". The proof is here, and your wait is officially over.

    The Geneva Bible is a fair translation but it had copious marginal notes which explained the government's responsibilities toward God and His people. This is the reason for a government-issue bible [ to replace it ] that would de-emphasize the king's responsibilities and make him look like a good guy.

    The kingdom of God is not a religion, but a form of government. The sooner we get that, the better.

    My earlier questions were not rhetorical. No drive-by posting allowed.
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    The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.

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    Dangerous Donald Neuro's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    How do you differentiate between an error and my opinion of an error?

    What I have posted is not a "list". The proof is here, and your wait is officially over.

    The Geneva Bible is a fair translation but it had copious marginal notes which explained the government's responsibilities toward God and His people. This is the reason for a government-issue bible [ to replace it ] that would de-emphasize the king's responsibilities and make him look like a good guy.

    The kingdom of God is not a religion, but a form of government. The sooner we get that, the better.

    My earlier questions were not rhetorical. No drive-by posting allowed.
    He demonstrates circular logic, whereby the error you suggested is impossible since KJV bible is PERFECT, therefore the error is yours to question it. Thus you failed.

    It really is impossible to point out an error in something that is perfect. LOL

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    Unobtanium palani's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuro View Post
    It really is impossible to point out an error in something that is perfect. LOL
    Your logic is PERFECT. Ergo it cannot be in error. But as we say in ingineering "GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT". Hence while the logic might be perfect the facts being allowed in might be flawed.

    Have you considered Kalman filtering to pre-qualify the facts in question? If you filter enough there are no facts and the output of the logic will reflect that fact (flat line is boring though). Or you might apply a dirac delta function (all frequencies/all facts) and convolute (flip it in the frequency domain) the output to check for eigenvalues (location of poles and/or zeros) to see which facts line up precisely with which logic.
    Make me one with everything.
    -- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor

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    Unobtanium crimethink's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    The question is "Does "all" mean all and does "every" mean every.

    "Every knee shall bend and every tounge shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father."
    Yes, every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess the Christ, even the ones who were supremely haughty in this life and in rabid denial that God exists. But it will ("probably") be too late for those who let the offer of everlasting salvation expire - at their death. Standing before Him, at Judgment, will convince even the most hardened autotheist.

    The concept of "all" is variable in the Bible. The verse "all the world should be taxed" is a tool I use to (try to) educate those who worship the Bible, and blindly insist it is "perfect" while applying modern perspectives. Caesar never taxed the Incas.


    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    And what of the early church leaders who taught that reconciliation would become universal?
    We simply don't know - nor does it matter for our work - if the unrepentant and God-denying are eventually reconciled to God. We must assume they will not be, and act accordingly in this life, teaching them the Gospel, in hope they will accept it. If God does give them a second chance, Hallelujah! But that's a gamble with potential consequences too terrible to conceive of.

    As for early church teachings, please remember that Mary worship was included. Error entered doctrine the day after Christ's ascension.
    crimethink - To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. Doubting any of the principles of Ingsoc. All crimes begin with a thought. So, if you control thought, you can control crime. "Thoughtcrime is death. Thoughtcrime does not entail death, Thoughtcrime is death.... The essential crime that contains all others in itself."

    ==

    "Without God...everything is permitted."

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    The concept of "all" is variable in the Bible. The verse "all the world should be taxed" is a tool I use to (try to) educate those who worship the Bible, and blindly insist it is "perfect" while applying modern perspectives. Caesar never taxed the Incas.
    True, but the Incas were not part of the world system. They were part of the planet, but "world" does not entail planet-wide effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    We simply don't know - nor does it matter for our work - if the unrepentant and God-denying are eventually reconciled to God. We must assume they will not be, and act accordingly in this life, teaching them the Gospel, in hope they will accept it. If God does give them a second chance, Hallelujah! But that's a gamble with potential consequences too terrible to conceive of.
    Well, I'm "all-in" on the Love of God overcoming all opposition. Whether or not 'it matters' depends on what "our work" entails.

    "The restoration of all things was taught by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28.

    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [the] Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order [tagma, "squadron"]: Christ the first fruits [or, "anointed firstfruits"], after that those who are [the] Christ's at His coming [parousia, "presence"], 24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

    Verse 22: It is evident that all mankind died in Adam-with no exceptions. In the same manner also shall all be made alive in Christ-with no exceptions. The "all" in both cases parallel each other and are equal in scope. However, they will NOT all be raised and saved at the same time.

    Verse 23: Each class shall be raised in its own order (tagma, "squadron"), for there is more than one resurrection ahead. Keep in mind that Paul is here dealing with the various resurrections of mankind. He has already dealt with Jesus' resurrection in verses 1-21. That is the foundation of the resurrections that follow.

    The first "squadron" to be raised, according to most translations, is "Christ the firstfruits." This rendering hardly makes sense, since Christ is not a "squadron," but a single Person. This could have been "anointed firstfruits" (see above). The word "Christ" in the Greek is the word for "anointed." When speaking of Jesus, it is preceded by the definite article the, making it "THE Anointed (One)," or "THE Christ."

    For example, in verse 22 (above) the original Greek has the definite article before "Christ," because Paul is referring to Jesus, "the Christ" in whom all shall be made alive. At the end of verse 23 the same is true when Paul says, "afterward those that are (the) Christ's at His coming." Between these two examples, however, we find a case where the definite article is NOT used: "Christ the firstfruits." It is therefore likely that "Christ" is NOT referring to "the Christ" (Jesus), but rather to a more general squadron of anointed ones.

    And so, verse 22 is better understood to mean, "anointed firstfruits." This is the first squadron of believers; those who are to inherit the first resurrection. Paul carefully chose this phrase to describe the firstfruits of the barley harvest, which was to be anointed with oil, as we read in Leviticus 23:13.

    13 'Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the LORD for a soothing aroma, with its libation, a fourth of a hin of wine.

    This was in direct contrast with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, the figure of the second resurrection of the Church in general. Those firstfruits were to be baked with leaven, rather than anointed with oil, as we read in Leviticus 23:17.

    17 You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread for a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.

    We will discuss the firstfruits in more detail in our next chapter on the three harvest festivals.

    The second squadron of resurrected ones are "those who are Christ's at His coming," or presence. Christ's "presence" here is when He comes as Judge at the Great White Throne. This is most clearly portrayed in Daniel 7, where the prophet saw "the Ancient of Days" coming to sit upon the throne of judgment (Daniel 7:9 and 22). We have already shown that this is the second resurrection and includes both believers and unbelievers.

    Verse 24: "Then comes the end" refers to the end of all things, i.e., after the Ages of Ages. This is the third and final time where a squadron of people will enter into God's rest. It is not quite accurate to call this occasion a resurrection, because it appears that the sinners being judged during that final age will be kept alive to serve out their sentence. We read about this in Revelation 20 where "death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire." If death itself, and hades with it, are cast into the lake of fire, it appears that the first death will be abolished at the Great White Throne Judgment to make way for the second death, or the lake of fire.

    The second death is a second TYPE of death. It is defined simply as the lake of fire, which, as we have seen, is the judgment of the law. This second death is the final enemy that must be abolished at the Creation's Jubilee of the earth at the end of the final age. Paul says clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:26 that "the last enemy that will be abolished is death."

    Only then, Paul says, will all earthly authorities have been made subject to His authority. Only then will all enemies have been subdued. Once all enemies are fully under His feet, then will come the abolition of death itself. This can only be accomplished by giving life in Creation's Jubilee.

    Even as the first squadron represents the barley harvest [ the "higher calling" ], and the second the wheat harvest [ the called-out - ie: church ], so also this third squadron represents the grape harvest [ appolumi - the lost ]. In order for God to obtain the wine, He must tread out the grapes, that is, He must "put all enemies under His feet." Paul again has chosen His words carefully with the harvest theme in mind."

    The KJV translators may have done their best with the revelation they had. But as more people are offended at the false doctrines brought in by Augustine and Jerome [ former pagans ] the ministry of Reconciliation [ that saves to the uttermost" ] must be taught.
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    The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    The kingdom of God is not a religion, but a form of government.
    "For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through them​ death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    There are many who would love their neighbors, but not their enemies. The love of God is demonstrated by the fact that Jesus Christ was willing to die for His enemies—not after they became His friends. He died for unbelievers as well as for believers. Such love is the basis for the latter part of Romans 5:18, where Paul contrasts the first Adam with Christ:

    18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

    In other words, Christ was willing to die, knowing that his “one act of righteousness” would result in “justification of life to all men.” His righteous act on the cross did not merely give men the potential of justification. No, justification to all men was the actual result, even as the sin of Adam resulted in condemnation to all men.

    For this reason, too, we read in 1 John 2:2,

    2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

    Hence, the promise of God to bless all nations (Genesis 12:3) and to make everyone His people (Deuteronomy 29:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15) was fulfilled by the righteous act of Jesus Christ. It is an accomplished fact, and only the timing of each person’s individual salvation is yet to be determined.

    This is the love of God, which forms the basis of Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians 13."
    R O T A S
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    The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law


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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by C.Martel View Post
    This fellow tells you plainly that he is expressing "my opinion". As a follower of those who "think to change times and laws" it hardly seems safe to heed them. The argument that "all that matters to you is your present condition" and that this is the single determining factor of your future is arguing that man's will can override God's Will permanently and completely is ridiculous.
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    The Kingdom of God is a form of government, not a religion.

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