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Thread: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

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    Palladium messianicdruid's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    They also cleverly invented purgatory to hide their inconsistencies, and of course raise some revenue.
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    Dangerous Donald Neuro's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by palani View Post
    Your logic is PERFECT. Ergo it cannot be in error. But as we say in ingineering "GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT". Hence while the logic might be perfect the facts being allowed in might be flawed.
    Are you an ingineer?

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    Unobtanium crimethink's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    "Eternal" or "permanent"?
    crimethink - To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. Doubting any of the principles of Ingsoc. All crimes begin with a thought. So, if you control thought, you can control crime. "Thoughtcrime is death. Thoughtcrime does not entail death, Thoughtcrime is death.... The essential crime that contains all others in itself."

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    "Without God...everything is permitted."

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    "Eternal" or "permanent"?
    Neither, God's actions towards sinners ( 1 John 3:4 ) are redemptive not vindictive. Man's laws are based on.punishment and mostly monetary oppression whereas God's punishment is designed to restore man to his inheritance.
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    Unobtanium crimethink's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Neither, God's actions towards sinners ( 1 John 3:4 ) are redemptive not vindictive. Man's laws are based on.punishment and mostly monetary oppression whereas God's punishment is designed to restore man to his inheritance.
    Permanent "punishment" - that is, extinguishment of existence (annihilation) - is not truly "punishment." If a spirit doesn't want to love and be with God, why should God impose His will, and force that spirit to do so?

    I have the same problem with permanent torment for similar reasons as you do. Would God allow the torture of spirits in unimaginably gruesome ways for infinity, for finite crimes? It makes the same (non-)sense as torturing animals slowly and painfully for being born defective (a sane, merciful person would simply put them down, quickly). Further, if Satan is overseeing this eternal torture, who oversees it after Satan is destroyed in the Lake of Fire?


    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Jesus Christ
    crimethink - To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. Doubting any of the principles of Ingsoc. All crimes begin with a thought. So, if you control thought, you can control crime. "Thoughtcrime is death. Thoughtcrime does not entail death, Thoughtcrime is death.... The essential crime that contains all others in itself."

    ==

    "Without God...everything is permitted."

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    Permanent "punishment" - that is, extinguishment of existence (annihilation) - is not truly "punishment." If a spirit doesn't want to love and be with God, why should God impose His will, and force that spirit to do so?

    I have the same problem with permanent torment for similar reasons as you do. Would God allow the torture of spirits in unimaginably gruesome ways for infinity, for finite crimes? It makes the same (non-)sense as torturing animals slowly and painfully for being born defective (a sane, merciful person would simply put them down, quickly). Further, if Satan is overseeing this eternal torture, who oversees it after Satan is destroyed in the Lake of Fire?


    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Jesus Christ
    Would you allow your 4 year old to go his own way and reject being around you because of his ignorance?

    The overcomers are going to be judging angels. When the Law is in the earth the people will learn righteousness. God's Law is like a consuming fire. It is the lake of fire that the ungodly will be thrown into ( suddenly - without their acceptance ). Satan will be bound.

    Our spirits are not our souls. Our bodies and souls ( lives ) can be destroyed in the grave ( hell ) but our spirits will be resurrected, some to age-abiding life and some to judgement ( further training ) because we refused to judge ourselves.

    God is not willing that any should perish. This is a time of self-judgement with the standards freely available. No one can claim ignorance. Just as in the conversion of Saul, He can save anyone ANY time He wants to.
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    Unobtanium crimethink's Avatar
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    Would you allow your 4 year old to go his own way and reject being around you because of his ignorance?

    The overcomers are going to be judging angels. When the Law is in the earth the people will learn righteousness. God's Law is like a consuming fire. It is the lake of fire that the ungodly will be thrown into ( suddenly - without their acceptance ). Satan will be bound.

    Our spirits are not our souls. Our bodies and souls ( lives ) can be destroyed in the grave ( hell ) but our spirits will be resurrected, some to age-abiding life and some to judgement ( further training ) because we refused to judge ourselves.

    God is not willing that any should perish. This is a time of self-judgement with the standards freely available. No one can claim ignorance. Just as in the conversion of Saul, He can save anyone ANY time He wants to.
    I hope, for the sake of the billions who do not know Jesus Christ, that you are right. Said with sincerity and humility, not smarminess.

    I do warn, and will continue to do so, that people must know Jesus Christ if they "know of" Him in this life, and there are no second chances once you pass into the next phase of existence.
    crimethink - To even consider any thought not in line with the principles of Ingsoc. Doubting any of the principles of Ingsoc. All crimes begin with a thought. So, if you control thought, you can control crime. "Thoughtcrime is death. Thoughtcrime does not entail death, Thoughtcrime is death.... The essential crime that contains all others in itself."

    ==

    "Without God...everything is permitted."

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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by crimethink View Post
    I do warn, and will continue to do so, that people must know Jesus Christ if they "know of" Him in this life, and there are no second chances once you pass into the next phase of existence.
    We must warn others of the consequences of sin [ law-less-ness 1 John 3:4 ]. If christians are following other gods [ rule makers ] it is hard to convince others to abstain from iniquity.

    Misrepresenting the Creator as a tyrant wishing to torture people is not leading to conversions. Preaching the ministry of Reconciliation with One who is worthy of our trust will.
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    Quote Originally Posted by messianicdruid View Post
    We must warn others of the consequences of sin [ law-less-ness 1 John 3:4 ]. If christians are following other gods [ rule makers ] it is hard to convince others to abstain from iniquity.
    http://messianicdruid.blogspot.com/2...ng-spirit.html
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    Re: Eternal Punishment is Against The Law

    https://gods-kingdom-ministries.net/...sonal-journey/

    This wasn't my journey, but it seems pertinent:

    "With all of this in mind, let me say again that both soul and spirit have consciousness. It requires a conscious identity to take the lead in anyone’s life. The spirit has the advantage of spiritually appraising, or discerning, all things (1 Corinthians 2:14, 15), whereas the soul’s capacity to discern is very limited. The spirit is the “inner man” in Romans 7:22, where Paul says, “I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man.” Hence, Paul’s spiritual man has the ability to feel joy while it agrees with the law of God. Only a conscious being can agree with anything!

    The question, then, is whether the spirit is mortal or immortal. Paul says in Romans 8:10, 11,

    10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead [mortal] because of sin, yet the spirit is alive [immortal] because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

    Paul says that the body is mortal on account of Adam’s sin. Romans 5:12 says that because of Adam’s sin, death (mortality) was passed down to all men. But Paul also says, “yet the spirit is alive,” or immortal. The question, of course, is if every man’s spirit is inherently immortal, or if it becomes immortal at the time that a person has faith in Christ. In other words, is the spirit’s immortality inherent by nature or conditional upon one’s expression of faith in Christ?

    Paul is not as clear on this issue as I might wish. But in my view, the New Covenant promise of God is to all men to be His people and for God to be the God of all (Deuteronomy 29:12, 13, 14, 15). Not all are believers at the present time, of course, and most people die without having faith in Jesus Christ. But the failure of men cannot cause the promise of God to fail. In fact, “God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all” (Romans 11:32).

    Hence, from the divine perspective, where God sees the end from the beginning, every man’s spirit is immortal. God accomplished this long before we were even born. It is a reality in His eyes—or, as we might say, it is a legal reality, that is, a spiritual reality. However, insofar as history and time is concerned, “we do not yet see all things subjected to Him” (Hebrews 2:8).

    So from the perspective of earthly time, the spirits of most men are not yet alive, at least in some sense. Each answer only raises more questions, and it is hardly possible to get to the bottom of anything or to plumb the depths of any single truth. It appears that life and consciousness are two different things. A nonbeliever may not have an immortal spirit, but his spirit remains conscious even after his body dies. That, of course, raises questions: Where does his spirit go? What is its condition prior to the Great White Throne judgment?"
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