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Thread: Ripple coin

  1. #21
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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust View Post
    If its a private system having private money then what does the US seal mean that's stamped on the FRN?
    It has two seals one for the private scrip and one when used as a US Note.

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust View Post
    Lol...but you cant redeem lawful money. Its been settled already about lawful money. The courts say frn's are lawful money, therefore you get more frn's when you redeem. Or think you redeem.
    Where do the courts say it's lawful money?
    It is legal tender.
    I would guess that when they say it's lawful money they are referring to it as a US Note indicated by the US Treasury seal.
    They probably just omit that they are only referring to it one way and not admit it has a dual purpose.


    Debunking the Federal Reserve
    Conspiracy Theories (and other financial myths)by Edward Flaherty
    (last updated September 6, 2000)


    Myth #14. "Lawful money" is only gold or silver coin as prescribed by the constitution. The U.S. has been without any such money since 1968.
    The constitution in Article I, section 10 reads "No state shall...coin money, emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver a tender in payment of debts..." This means that the only constitutionally valid forms of money are gold or silver coin. This is called 'lawful money.' U.S. paper money used to be redeemable in lawful money, but no more. Our monetary system is based on unconstitutional forms of money. At least, this is how a few conspiracy theorists see it.The source of their confusion is easy to see and, in this case, easy to understand. Simmons (1939) and Cross (1939) shed some light on the subject. The phrase 'lawful money' had appeared repeatedly in the money and banking laws of the U.S. in the first half of this century, but had never been explicitly defined. It first appeared on February 25, 1862 when Congress authorized the issue of greenbacks and declared them to be "lawful money and a legal tender" for all debts, public and private. 1 This terminology may have been adopted to promote the acceptability of the currency, since the occasion was the first in which Congress attempted to make a paper money a legal tender. 3 At this point in time, then, the terms 'lawful money' and 'legal tender' had no distinct meaning. They were they same thing.
    During the Civil War era Congress gave several types of money the status 'lawful money.' On March 17, 1862 Congress declared that Treasury notes (not the T-note debt instrument we know by that name today) were lawful money. February 12, 1862 saw Congress make clearinghouse certificates a lawful money. After the Civil War, on July 12, 1870, Congress placed the U.S. back on the gold standard and specified what types of money national banks could count to meet their legal reserve requirements. "The terms 'lawful money' and 'lawful money of the United States," the Act read, "when applied to these banks shall be held and construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States." 1 So, by 1870 greenbacks, Treasury notes, clearinghouse certificates, and gold and silver coin were all 'lawful money.' The annoying part, though, is that Congress never stated exactly what lawful money was supposed to be. The only concrete conclusion that can be reached is that lawful money and legal tender were two separate things. Lawful money was money that banks could count toward satisfying their reserve requirements. Legal tender was any money that government would accept in payment of taxes. Some money was lawful money, but not all lawful money was legal tender. And vice versa. Confused?
    One last example of the confusion Congress created on the lawful money topic concerns Federal Reserve notes. Prior to 1933-34, they were redeemable at any Federal Reserve bank "in gold or lawful money," and Federal Reserve banks were compelled to hold a 35% reserve "in gold or lawful money" behind their deposits. Congress did not use the phrase "in gold or in other forms of lawful money." It definitely set the terms in contrast to each other. This leads one to conclude that Congress did not deem gold to be lawful money, which at the time would have been absurd. 1
    After 1933 all forms of U.S. money were conferred with legal tender status. This set up a paradox for currency redeemability. Federal Reserve notes and U.S. Notes, for example, were redeemable in "lawful money," but what was lawful money? Because redeemability had ended, there was no longer any distinction between lawful money and legal tender. Federal Reserve notes were therefore redeemable with other Federal Reserve notes, or with U.S. Notes, or with any other legal tender.
    To illustrate how some people were confused by this, consider the following correspondence between the U.S. Treasury and citizen of Cleveland. 2
    December 9, 1947Honorable John W. Snyder
    Sec. of the Treasury
    Washington, D.C.
    Dear Sir:
    I am sending you herewith via registered mail one ten-dollar Federal Reserve note. On this note is inscribed the following:
    "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private, and is redeemable in lawful money at the United States Treasury or at any Federal Reserve bank."
    In accordance with this statement, will you send me $10.00 in lawful money?Very truly yours,
    A.F. Davis
    *****
    December 11, 1947Mr. A.F. Davis
    12818 Colt Road
    Cleveland 1, Ohio
    Dear Mr. Davis,
    Receipt is acknowledged of your letter of December 9th with enclosure of one ten dollar Federal Reserve note.

    In compliance with your request, two five-dollar United States notes are transmitted herewith.
    Very truly yours,
    M.E. Slindee,
    Acting Treasurer
    *****
    December 23, 1947Mr. M.E. Slindee
    Acting Treasurer
    Treasury Department
    Fiscal Service
    Washington 25, D.C.
    Dear Sir:
    Receipt is hereby acknowledged of two $5.00 United States notes, which we interpret from your letter to be considered lawful money. Are we to infer from this that Federal Reserve notes are not lawful money?
    I am enclosing one of the $5.00 notes which you sent me. I note that it states on the face,
    "The United States of America will pay to the bearer on demand five dollars."
    I am hereby demanding five dollars.
    Very truly yours,
    A.F. Davis
    *****
    December 29, 1947
    Mr. A.F. Davis
    12818 Colt Road
    Cleveland 1, Ohio
    Dear Mr. Davis:
    Receipt is acknowledged of your letter of December 23rd, transmitting one $5 United States note with a demand for payment of five dollars.
    Your are advised that the term "lawful money" has not been defined in federal legislation. It first came to use prior to 1933 when some United States currency was not legal tender but could be held by national banking institutions as lawful money reserves. Since the act of May 12, 1933, as amended by the Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933, makes all coins and currency of the United States legal tender and the Joint Resolution of August 27, 1935, provides for the exchange of United States coin or currency for other types of such coin or currency, the term "lawful money" no longer has such special significance.
    The $5 United States note received with your letter of December 23rd is returned herewith.
    Very truly yours,
    M.E. Slindee,
    Acting Treasurer
    *****It is understandable how reasonable people can become confused when studying the history of the terms 'lawful money' and 'legal tender' in U.S. history. The blame for this rests with Congress who never bothered to define lawful money when it first used the term. However, the line of thinking that it is defined by the constitution as only gold or silver coin is incorrect. The constitution makes no such definition. Moreover, the restriction that States not make anything but gold or silver a legal tender does not apply to Congress, only to the States. Congress may declare anything it wishes a legal tender. And as the history above shows, it certainly has.
    References:
    1. Cross, Ira B. (1938), "A note on lawful money," Journal of Political Economy, pp. 409-13.2. Ritter, Lawrence (1961), Money and economic activity: Readings in money and banking, Boston: Houghton-Mifflin.
    3. Simmons, Edward C. (1938), "The concept of lawful money," Journal of Political Economy, pp. 108-18.


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    Re: Ripple coin

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rve_System.svg

    A "system" just like Ripple - their house wins is the system

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust View Post
    Lol...but you cant redeem lawful money. Its been settled already about lawful money. The courts say frn's are lawful money, therefore you get more frn's when you redeem. Or think you redeem.
    That's bullshit, the only court case that gets sited for that "lawful money" argument is Milam v. U.S., 524 F.2d 629, in which if you actually read through the case does not say anything that FRN are lawful money.

    W. Jefferson Davis, La Jolla, Cal., for appellant.

    Robert H. Filsinger, Asst. U.S. Atty., San Diego, Cal., for appellees.

    MEMORANDUM

    Before KILKENNY and TRASK, Circuit Judges, and CRAIG,* District Judge.

    Appellant has filed a substantial brief and an adequate reply brief and has argued his full share of allotted time in support for a demand that his $50.00 Federal Reserve Bank Note be redeemed in "lawful money" of the United States, which he says, in effect, must be gold or silver. Appellant refused appellees' tender of an equivalent value in Federal Reserve Notes.

    Appellant's contentions, in our view, were put at rest close to a century ago in Juilliard v. Greenman, 110 U.S. 421, 448, 4 S. Ct. 122, 130, 28 L. Ed. 204 (1884), in which it was said:

    " . . . Under the power to borrow money on the credit of the United States, and to issue circulating notes for the money borrowed, its power to define the quality and force of those notes as currency is as broad as the like power over a metallic currency under the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. Under the two powers, taken together, Congress is authorized to establish a national currency, either in coin or in paper, and to make that currency lawful money for all purposes, as regards the national government or private individuals. . . . " (Emphasis supplied.)

    The power so precisely described in Juilliard has been delegated to the Federal Reserve System under the provisions of 12 U.S.C. 411. Appellant's challenge to the validity of this legislation is meritless. Cf.31 U.S.C. 392.

    While we agree that golden eagles, double eagles and silver dollars were lovely to look at and delightful to hold, we must at the same time recognize that time marches on, and that even the time honored silver dollar is no longer available in its last bastion of defense, the brilliant casinos of the houses of chance in the state of Nevada. Appellant is entitled to redeem his note, but not in precious metal. Simply stated, we find his contentions frivolous.

    Judgment affirmed.
    Now, take a look at 12 USC 411

    Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.
    Can you tell me why you or anyone who is not a Federal Reserve Bank, or an Agent thereof is actually using Federal Reserve Notes? It specifically says they aren't to be used for that.
    "Paper is poverty, it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1788
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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    That's bullshit, the only court case that gets sited for that "lawful money" argument is Milam v. U.S., 524 F.2d 629, in which if you actually read through the case does not say anything that FRN are lawful money.



    Now, take a look at 12 USC 411



    Can you tell me why you or anyone who is not a Federal Reserve Bank, or an Agent thereof is actually using Federal Reserve Notes? It specifically says they aren't to be used for that.
    You're confused and have a strong belief in a falsehood spread by people who want a conspiracy.

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    That's bullshit, the only court case that gets sited for that "lawful money" argument is Milam v. U.S., 524 F.2d 629, in which if you actually read through the case does not say anything that FRN are lawful money.



    Now, take a look at 12 USC 411



    Can you tell me why you or anyone who is not a Federal Reserve Bank, or an Agent thereof is actually using Federal Reserve Notes? It specifically says they aren't to be used for that.
    Why do you ignore they are used for ALL debt and public dues?
    Have any idea what those two items might be or you just playing stupid?

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust View Post
    You're confused and have a strong belief in a falsehood spread by people who want a conspiracy.
    You're confused reading into something about a court declaring something lawful money when they made no such declaration.

    You also can't show me why you would use Federal Reserve Notes when it specifically states that they are not authorized for use outside of advances to Federal Reserve Banks and or their Agents.
    "Paper is poverty, it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1788
    "The greatest threat to the state is when the people figure out they can exist without them." - Twisted Titan
    "Some Libertarians are born, the government makes the rest."
    "Voting is nothing more than a slaves suggestion box, voting on a new master every few years does not make you free."

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust View Post
    Why do you ignore they are used for ALL debt and public dues?
    Have any idea what those two items might be or you just playing stupid?
    Why? Because It specifically states that if you're not a Federal Reserve Bank you are not authorized to use them.

    Reading Comprehension isn't your strong spot is it sport?

    Let's break this down because obviously you aren't grasping this simple language.

    The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues.
    This states in black and white that the notes are obligations of the United States, and that they will be receivable by all national and member banks and federal reserve banks FOR ALL TAXES, CUSTOMS, and OTHER PUBLIC DUES.

    This says in black and white that said notes are to be used by banks, and the United States government to pay taxes, customs and public dues. No where in this USC does it state that said notes are authorized for use by people, or anyone outside of the Government or the Federal Reserve System.
    "Paper is poverty, it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1788
    "The greatest threat to the state is when the people figure out they can exist without them." - Twisted Titan
    "Some Libertarians are born, the government makes the rest."
    "Voting is nothing more than a slaves suggestion box, voting on a new master every few years does not make you free."

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    You're confused reading into something about a court declaring something lawful money when they made no such declaration.

    You also can't show me why you would use Federal Reserve Notes when it specifically states that they are not authorized for use outside of advances to Federal Reserve Banks and or their Agents.
    I use frns to pay debt or a public due like everyone else including you.
    It says all debt. What's hard to understand about that?
    The courts agree.
    The courts say frns are legal tender issued by the reserve system on the credit of the US.
    Whats wrong with your common sense?

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    Re: Ripple coin

    Quote Originally Posted by golddust View Post
    I use frns to pay debt or a public due like everyone else including you.
    It says all debt. What's hard to understand about that?
    You're stuck on all debts, but not the entire context of the USC. You sound like those idiots declaring the 2nd Amendment is for a militia picking out a word and not taking the entire statement in context. Like I said, reading comprehension does not appear to be your strong point.

    The courts agree.
    Really? Can you show me a court case that backs your assumption?

    The courts say frns are legal tender issued by the reserve system on the credit of the US.
    There is a difference between Legal Tender, and Lawful money. You are attempting to use the 2 interchangeably and wondering why we aren't drinking your kool-aid.

    Whats wrong with your common sense?
    Absolutely nothing, I've been using 12 USC 411 to redeem lawful money since 2012 without so much as a frivolous claim from the IRS.

    What's wrong with your reading comprehension?
    "Paper is poverty, it is only the ghost of money, and not money itself." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1788
    "The greatest threat to the state is when the people figure out they can exist without them." - Twisted Titan
    "Some Libertarians are born, the government makes the rest."
    "Voting is nothing more than a slaves suggestion box, voting on a new master every few years does not make you free."

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