If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.

[mamboni]

Thanks. As being a staunch anti-vaccination supporter, I am now curious as to your stance on the whole vaccination issue.

My stance is that I do not believe in them at all. 100 % against them, all of them, but that is my world .

My question is do you believe that some vaccinations work and are good for you and other vaccinations, like the flu shot, are bad for you ?
I have seen you advocate a few vaccinations on here like Hep B vax, so I am confused, I thought you supported the polio vax as well.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthre...902-Hepatits-B
The flu shot contains formaldehyde , aluminum and thimerosol (mercury) just like voluntary Hep B vax that you've had before this mandatory flu vax threat.



I don't see how anyone could possibly in good conscience tell you to fight the Zios that are above you.
You are in way too deep & way too long to just lose your practice now all for the good & noble fight of not getting your flu shot.
Do we have any luck in our everyday normal lives fighting the Zios ? They're too big & wayy to powerful to bow down to some
M.D.s who will fight them.
Save yourself the stress and do the whole " I took my vaccination"-post #12)

They are threatening termination here.
To fight them you would have to be an anti-vaccination extremist that does not believe in the shots,
but you've said before on here that you've had other vaccinations.
They will bring your family into it, like if your kids are vaxed, your wife, your vax history, etc.
I do believe you'd be protected by a grandfather clause because you didn't sign a contract stating this mandatory shot when you took the job.
I don't know.


This is just my opinion Mamboni, but you're better off saving yourself alot of grief & suffering if you don't buck them.
If you do buck them, be prepared for HELL and I know of a very, very good school out west to get your Naturopathic Doctor degree.
If you know that you are a good, respected, noble, principled, ethical doctor just keep it at that & go with the flow & save yourself a war.

A private practice, as said here, sounds perfect for you. Then when you retire, you can still work a couple of days a week if you wanted to !

I think this thread needs moved to a members-only area .

Yes, there are "good" vaccines. It is a complex question as so many factors are involved: lethality of the infection, transmissability, efficacy of the vaccine, side effects of the vaccine, number of potential lives saved versus lives lost from vaccination. There is never unanimous agreement on whether a vaccine is warranted. But in my opinion under no circumstances should a vaccine be mandated against the individual's will unless it be 100% effective and 100% safe. No such vaccine exists to my knowledge.

The issue of vaccinating health care providers is a thorny one because of the question of patient exposure. In the case of this flu vaccine I do not think it justifies mandatory vaccination. In fact, given it's mediocre efficacy, the same reasons that are used to justify mandatory vaccination would also justify mandatory universal precautions when doctors and nurses are caring for patients. After all, we can estimate that at best only 2/3 of the vaccinated might be protected. Therefore, at least 1/3 of workers, despite vaccination are no less a danger to the patient than an unvaccinated worker. If workers use gloves, gowns and masks and practice universal precautiosn then the need for the vaccine is obviated. Many physicians will get vaccinated as a marketing necessity, fearful that patient might refuse to see them unvaccinated. Do all doctors wear a mask, gloves and gown when seeing patients during flu seasion? Probably not. Some will say it puts a barrier between them and the patient. Others may not see the need. But the solution to preventing flu spread by healthcare workers is not to treat them as soul-less robots to be ordered against their will. The answer is education. If flu vaccine is being mandated to healthcare workers, it indicates to me that there may be serious gaps in education and training of workers.

Professionally, I do not see patients nor their families. And I have minimal contact with hospital staff. I can minimize this risk easily with simple precautions. There is no justification for the flu vaccine in my particular case.

[mamboni]

Sunday, September 23, 2012

Mandated Flu Vaccines: A Whole Lotta Nonsense



I spoke at the Healthy Traditions Network annual conference today (9.23.12). A flyer was distributed to those attending the conference that was titled, “Healthcare Workers Protect Your Freedom of Choice.” This flyer explained the flu vaccination conundrum that many health care workers are experiencing. You see, the Powers-That-Be want everyone who works in our hospitals to have a flu shot in order to protect the patients from getting the flu from sick health care workers.

Protecting the patients should be the number one goal of any hospital. However, mandating that every single hospital worker receive the flu vaccine or face termination is not the correct way to improve patient care.

I blogged about the flu vaccine in September and October of 2009—see the archives section on my blog homepage. In the October, 2009 post, here is what I wrote: “The U.S. government and pretty much all mainstream groups claim that the flu shot prevents the flu in those that get the vaccine. However, the flu shots have not been shown to be effective in healthy babies, children with asthma, adults, and the elderly.

In Children: A review of 51 studies which included more than 294,000 children found “no evidence that injecting children 6-24 months of age with a flu shot was any more effective than placebo. In children over two years of age, it was only effective 33% of the time in preventing the flu. (Chochrane Database of Systemic Reviews 2. 2008).
In asthmatic children, the flu shot did not provide any benefit in preventing asthma exacerbations. The authors of this study compared 400 asthmatic children who were vaccinated with a similar number of asthmatic children who were not vaccinated. They found no difference between emergency visits, clinic visits, or hospitalizations in the vaccinated versus the non-vaccinated group. (Arch. Dis. Child. 2004. Aug;89(8):734-5). If this study wasn’t enough to get your attention a new study found that “Children who get the flu vaccine are three times more at risk for hospitalization than children who do not get the flu vaccine.” (American Thoracic Society 105^th International Conference, May 15-20, 2009, San Diego, CA.).

According to the CDC, the elderly are a population at increased risk for acquiring the flu and developing complications of the flu. In nursing homes or for the elderly living in the community, researchers found the flu shot was ineffective for preventing the flu. (Chochrane Databse of Systemic Reviews. 3(2006). In fact, the flu shot has never been shown to lower the rate of mortality from the flu in any population, including the elderly.

Clearly, there is NO reason to get the flu shot. It doesn’t prevent the flu and has not been shown to prevent complications from the flu.”


Would I change anything that I wrote about the flu vaccine? No. It was, and is, still true.

However, I can add to it. The Cochrane group is an independent medical research group designed to help physicians put evidence into practice. They do not take Big Pharma money. A 2010 study by the Cochrane group tried to answer the question, “Does seasonal influenza immunization of health care personnel reduce the incidence of influenza and its complications in older residents of long-term facilities?” The authors examined four randomized controlled trials and one cohort study. They found that vaccination of personnel had no effect on the incidence of laboratory-proven influenza, pneumonia, admissions to the hospital, and death from pneumonia. The authors concluded, “There is insufficient evidence to support the vaccination of health care workers as a measure to protect older patients from influenza.” (Am. Fam. Phy. Oct 1, 2010. Vol. 82, No. 7. Pg. 763-4).

So, should all health care workers be mandated to get the flu vaccine? The answer is clear: No. Nobody should be forced to receive a vaccination that is not only ineffective; it is also contaminated with mercury.

What can you do? In Michigan, House Bill 5605 was introduced which would allow health care workers the right to refuse the influenza vaccine as a condition of employment. Representative Gail Haines is the chair of the committee looking at this bill. You can call her and voice your opinion at: 517-373-0615. You can also email her at: GailHaines@house.mi.gov.

In Michigan, more information can be found at www.hcpvc.org.


posted by Dr. David Brownstein @ 5:00 PM http://img2.blogblog.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif


http://drdavidbrownstein.blogspot.co...ole-lotta.html

[vacuum]

Mamboni, as others have pointed out this is an extremely important issue, both practically and in principle. I feel that the fact that doctors and other healthcare workers generally reject forced vaccinations is the only thing that is stopping every single American from being forced to get vaccinations and from there who knows what else.

It's a terrible position to be in when you have to choose between your livelihood and principles (and health).

To me, the most serious issue here is no one accepts liability. If you take the vaccine and get an illness or die, the vaccine company isn't liable and the hospital isn't accepting liability either. They CANNOT make this mandatory, in my opinion, unless someone accepts liability.

So as we've learned many times on this forum, I would make a counter offer. Submit in writing you will accept the vaccine if they agree that they are completely liable for any injury or death that results as a consequence. Put explicit symptoms within a specific time period and specific damages (or ways to calculate damages). See if they are willing to put their money where there mouth is and give a few million to your family if you die.

There is no need for a vote of no confidence. If they truly accept the premise that these vaccines will protect rather than injure you, they should accept liability if instead they injure you. Statistically (1 out of 100,000 odds) they should have the money to cover anyone who is injured. If that is not the case, their whole premise collapses.

If they refuse to accept liability for damages from the mandatory vaccine, consult a lawyer and see if that is legal.

If all else fails, 'take' the vaccine.

[sunshine05]

Have you searched to see if exemption forms are accepted? Everyone thinks kids must be vaxed to enter school - they tell you that but what most don't know is that all but two states have exemptions that must be accepted. In NC they have a medical exemption (tough to use unless there is a known allergy to an ingredient) and a religious exemption that must be accepted. I typed the forms up myself and gave them to my kids schools (when they attended school) and nobody even blinked. It seems to me there should be an exemption for medical workers as well.

You stated above that the vaccines could protect 2/3 of people vaxed but the studies I've seen do not show that, in fact it's pretty much a fact that flu vaccines do not work at all. I just read an excellent book a few months ago and this was discussed.
http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-nation...vaccine+nation

[Old Herb Lady]

Yes, there are "good" vaccines. It is a complex question as so many factors are involved: lethality of the infection, transmissability, efficacy of the vaccine, side effects of the vaccine, number of potential lives saved versus lives lost from vaccination. There is never unanimous agreement on whether a vaccine is warranted. But in my opinion under no circumstances should a vaccine be mandated against the individual's will unless it be 100% effective and 100% safe. No such vaccine exists to my knowledge.

The issue of vaccinating health care providers is a thorny one because of the question of patient exposure. In the case of this flu vaccine I do not think it justifies mandatory vaccination. In fact, given it's mediocre efficacy, the same reasons that are used to justify mandatory vaccination would also justify mandatory universal precautions when doctors and nurses are caring for patients. After all, we can estimate that at best only 2/3 of the vaccinated might be protected. Therefore, at least 1/3 of workers, despite vaccination are no less a danger to the patient than an unvaccinated worker. If workers use gloves, gowns and masks and practice universal precautiosn then the need for the vaccine is obviated. Many physicians will get vaccinated as a marketing necessity, fearful that patient might refuse to see them unvaccinated. Do all doctors wear a mask, gloves and gown when seeing patients during flu seasion? Probably not. Some will say it puts a barrier between them and the patient. Others may not see the need. But the solution to preventing flu spread by healthcare workers is not to treat them as soul-less robots to be ordered against their will. The answer is education. If flu vaccine is being mandated to healthcare workers, it indicates to me that there may be serious gaps in education and training of workers.

Professionally, I do not see patients nor their families. And I have minimal contact with hospital staff. I can minimize this risk easily with simple precautions. There is no justification for the flu vaccine in my particular case.

Thanks Doc.

Of course no one should EVER be forced into this, ever. So then if you do decide to fight the good fight ....then at least you'll need to know where to start.......


You are fortunate enough to live & work in a state that does NOT require mandatory vaccination admnistration.
USE THAT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Write a letter & get a RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION FORM & give it to the head honcho at the hospital who is advocating all this nonsense.
I have to do this to save my kid's life every year ! Doctors are no different ! You can do it as well.
He doesn't know that you can do this, Mamboni ! Give him a surprise.

http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/StateVaccAp...al%20Employees

[sunshine05]

http://www.vaccinerights.com/healthcareworkers.html

[mamboni]

Have you searched to see if exemption forms are accepted? Everyone thinks kids must be vaxed to enter school - they tell you that but what most don't know is that all but two states have exemptions that must be accepted. In NC they have a medical exemption (tough to use unless there is a known allergy to an ingredient) and a religious exemption that must be accepted. I typed the forms up myself and gave them to my kids schools (when they attended school) and nobody even blinked. It seems to me there should be an exemption for medical workers as well.

You stated above that the vaccines could protect 2/3 of people vaxed but the studies I've seen do not show that, in fact it's pretty much a fact that flu vaccines do not work at all. I just read an excellent book a few months ago and this was discussed.
http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-nation...vaccine+nation

I was being generous with the 2/3 estimate of vaccine efficacy. To wit, approx. 1/3 have natural immunity and the vaccine might add another 1/3 as it is arguably 33% effective. But, from an epidemiologic perspective, 33% efficacy is virtually worhtless in prevention of spread of the infection.

[mamboni]

http://www.vaccinerights.com/healthcareworkers.html

Excellent site - many useful links there - thank you.

I cannot utilize the religious exemption as it were.

[midnight rambler]

So as we've learned many times on this forum, I would make a counter offer. Submit in writing you will accept the vaccine if they agree that they are completely liable for any injury or death that results as a consequence.

Considering you're talking about your livelihood here, it's only fair, reasonable, and prudent that *someone* (although I have serious doubts about any legal fiction doing so lol) assume full liability for something which poses so many REAL AND SUBSTANTIAL threats.

[Libertytree]

How long will it be before everyone must comply with the vaccine flavor of the moment? This time they're starting with the health care workers and I think they'll try working their way down, however possible.