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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Maybe consulting a lawyer would be a good idea. If you decide to take the shot, document it well. I would have a medical exam clearing myself from all known diseases suspected of being caused by vaccines prior to taking the shot. Then I would have the the vaccine procedure recorded on video. Make a statement on the video prior to administration of the vaccine that you don't want this vaccine, but are being forced to take it or you lose your job. Cover your ass!
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Mamboni, this is tough because if you do take the "semantics" route and "take" the vaccine, you are representing to your colleagues and patients that you accepted the treatment. How will you now be able to advise your patients against getting the vaccine? Every time you bring up the dangers/risks of the vaccine to your peers, they will simply remind you that you took it and call you a hypocrite. Think about the consequences of this semantics game, you may have to fake it for the rest of your practice. On the other hand, losing your medical practice is an incredibly high price to pay to publicly defy the establishment. Let me ask, do you really believe you would lose your practice? Is there a chance that they will acquiesce and not penalize you for refusing the shot?
On another note, I want to applaud you for your comment in the OP. I'm going to print out a copy, keep it in my work bag, and when my colleagues ask why I don't take the shot (as happens every year), I will show them your letter.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chad
one other thing i'd like to point out as well.
this illustrates the game has changed.
medical decisions are indeed now being made by bureaucrats, not doctors.
It doesn't get any clearer than this, does it?
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
I am so sorry for your suffering concerning this matter.
Am I permitted to ask you a very important, powerful question on here concerning this flu shot ?
I won't ask it until you give me permission to do so, that's how intense the question is and
I do not want to put you on the spot, ever, you're under enough stress. :(
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
It is easy for people not in your shoes to suggest that you stand up and refuse . . . I get that. However, might you just give it some time and see how other professionals are treated upon refusal? I've learned some powerful lessons about NOT acknowledging my intentions immediately, sticking with my principles, but also allowing time to intervene. Sometimes things change in your favor.
You have five years til retirement. Is this the time to slip out without a mark on your record as being a "refuser"? Maybe you can consult for another healthcare system, reinvent yourself as being self-employed and not in their line of fire?
Explore your other options! Good Luck!
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
I can't add anything to what's already been said but I do hate to see ya in this predicament and whatever course of action you take I wish you the very best Doc.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Does their order violate a previous oath or any contract(s)?
Lawyer up and game plan this out weighing all options and possible scenarios.
Start your own practice and use the publicity in your favor.
In short I'm saying take a STAND and FIGHT.
Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools, that don't have brains enough to be honest. -Benjamin Franklin
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Do what you know is right. Don't lie and sell your soul to keep your job.
Straight up.
This is a fight worth fighting for. It's huge.
EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS FIGHT RESONATES TRUTH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS.
No to sound hyperbolic here Doc, but this may be THE opportunity of your lifetime. as a Dr. As a healer. As a MAN.
The battle has come to you. And quite clearly delineated. You KNOW what's right. That in itself is an awesome weapon.
You have what it takes to fight this horrible evil. Not only are you a Doctor and a man of conscience, you're also someone who can communicate with great strength, agility, humor and beauty. You can move people with words. You've moved me.
Refuse the vaccination!! Go public! Tip their boat over. Drown the fucking rats. Take no prisoners.
Whatever you decide though, I'm proud to have known you here online.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Old Herb Lady
I am so sorry for your suffering concerning this matter.
Am I permitted to ask you a very important, powerful question on here concerning this flu shot ?
I won't ask it until you give me permission to do so, that's how intense the question is and
I do not want to put you on the spot, ever, you're under enough stress. :(
Sure, ask away.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Personally I would stand considering the opportunity to rout out those rat bastards and their Big Pharma lord, however I wouldn't hold it against you if you 'played along' (faked taking it).
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EE_
Yes, your collleague holds out his hand with the vaccine and you "take" it from his hand.
You tell everyone you "took" the vaccine. Brilliant and not a lie. :)
2 Corinthians 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
madfranks
Mamboni, this is tough because if you do take the "semantics" route and "take" the vaccine, you are representing to your colleagues and patients that you accepted the treatment. How will you now be able to advise your patients against getting the vaccine? Every time you bring up the dangers/risks of the vaccine to your peers, they will simply remind you that you took it and call you a hypocrite. Think about the consequences of this semantics game, you may have to fake it for the rest of your practice. On the other hand, losing your medical practice is an incredibly high price to pay to publicly defy the establishment. Let me ask, do you really believe you would lose your practice? Is there a chance that they will acquiesce and not penalize you for refusing the shot?
On another note, I want to applaud you for your comment in the OP. I'm going to print out a copy, keep it in my work bag, and when my colleagues ask why I don't take the shot (as happens every year), I will show them your letter.
Thank you for the kind words. You guys here are great people, intelligent, thoughtful and righteous. Yes, there is a very good chance that I will lose my practice because the physician who spearheaded the mandatory vaccine is the hospital CMO and he doesn't like me or my independent thinking. He shoots from the hip and makes sweeping bureaucratic decisions without a care for the consequences. I seriously wonder if he has Asperger's syndrome.
If I choose the legal route and sue the hospital and name each and very physician member of the medical board, it will certainly bankrupt my practice and destroy my presently excellent relationship with the hospital and community. If I were to win the legal battle it would be a pyrrhic victory. If I lose it would be a personal and professional disaster. I am not so bold as to think that I alone could set in motion a mass movement to reject the mandatory vaccine policy. I merely want to get on with my practice and life, and uphold the oath I took to Hippocrates so many years ago. The semantic solution is not honorable; but, it is not hishonorable either. It is expedient yet no one is harmed and potential financial and professional harm to many is avoided. In the end, I am a pragmatist and realist, not a reformer or revolutionary.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Large Sarge
Hey Mamboni,
I was in africa on holiday recently, and was touring some countries/sites, now in a few of the countries I visited, Yellow Fever Vaccine was required,
So I had a moral dilemna also,
What I did was decided to risk it, with a few conditions.
I loaded up on a shitload of vitamin C a few hours before, during, and after vaccination.
Vitamin C acts as an antitoxin in the body, it acts as a chelating agent, boosts immune function, etc
basically Vitamin C will destroy/nullify/pull out any toxin in the body.
So IMO your risk is about nothing if vitmain c levels are high enough,
in good conscience, you could advise any patient taking a vaccine to do the same thing
Maybe so about vitamin C Sarge; but, there is principle involved as well as unknown risk. I am a big proponent of Vitamin C as both preventative and health promoter and consume 1.5 to 2 grams daily and more if stressed (like about now!). But, I don't know for a fact that the Vitamin C would prevent the serious vaccine-associated complications.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Golden
Does their order violate a previous oath or any contract(s)?
Lawyer up and game plan this out weighing all options and possible scenarios.
Start your own practice and use the publicity in your favor.
In short I'm saying take a STAND and FIGHT.
Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools, that don't have brains enough to be honest. -Benjamin Franklin
That quote looks strangely familar - LOL.
Yes, I'm reviewing my contract, the medical staff bylaws and the credentialing requirements pertaining specifically to my position. I'm fairly confident there is no mention of influenza vaccination. So on legal grounds, they have no standing in forcing me to be vaccinated. But, sad to say, who even respects or follows the letter of the law or contracts these days?
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chad
one other thing i'd like to point out as well.
this illustrates the game has changed.
medical decisions are indeed now being made by bureaucrats, not doctors.
Truer words have rarely ever been spoken. Thank you Chad. I am full of emotion and affection for all of you.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mamboni
The semantic solution is not honorable; but, it is not hishonorable either. It is expedient yet no one is harmed and potential financial and professional harm to many is avoided. In the end, I am a pragmatist and realist, not a reformer or revolutionary.
The AMA has a monopoly on the "health care" system and if one wants to make a living in the industry, one has to "play ball" so to speak. Too many examples have been made of renegades and lives destroyed in the process.
It is "art of war" time.
You have a great commitment to your patients and I sense you feel you will do the most good by continuing to help them rather than fighting a beast that will destroy you in the process and deny your patients your care.
When they outlaw healers, only outlaws will heal. Welcome to the new reality, pardner.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mamboni
I seriously wonder if he has Asperger's syndrome.
Couldn't you move to have this person removed with a voice of no confidence, being reckless and possible mentally impaired?
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hoarder
We live in a world in which we no longer have the luxury of being able to avoid being dishonest.
Isn't that the truth. I told my wife the other day: upholding one's principles is very costly...but so necessary to the health of the spirit and the soul.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tumbleweed
If you don't want to take the shot don't. I have a friend who almost died from guillane barre disease. Probably came about from a flu shot. Another friend is dying of ALS but I don't know if that has anything to do with flu shots. It's a terrible way to die.
Do what you know is right. Don't lie and sell your soul to keep your job. If I recall right Book told you there was a need for doctors in his part of the world and encouraged you to explore that area if you were to move. I know rural areas in the west are always looking for doctors.
It feels good doing what you believe to be the right thing. A few years ago a trucking company I worked for made all the drivers take a course for homeland security to identify and turn in to the Feds any information about people who they thought might be terrorists. I wouldn't sign up. Their threat was they would fire anyone who wouldn't take part. I finaly quit them and for a long time they tried to get me to come back and work for them. It felt good.
Your last paragraph made me so proud of you. Thank you for being a man.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Doctor, I have read all this thread. To me the answer would be simple. Stand up for what you believe. If you don't no one else is going to do it for you. Santa's post is dead on. You're intelligent, articulate and humorous. Rock their boat.
Good luck whatever your decision may be.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Uncle Salty
The AMA has a monopoly on the "health care" system and if one wants to make a living in the industry, one has to "play ball" so to speak. Too many examples have been made of renegades and lives destroyed in the process.
It is "art of war" time.
You have a great commitment to your patients and I sense you feel you will do the most good by continuing to help them rather than fighting a beast that will destroy you in the process and deny your patients your care.
When they outlaw healers, only outlaws will heal. Welcome to the new reality, pardner.
That is a fine quote my friend. If I get though this, I may have a big plaque made of it to hang over my office door.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StreetsOfGold
Couldn't you move to have this person removed with a voice of no confidence, being reckless and possible mentally impaired?
Wow, that would be a long shot of long shots. Don't forget that the CDC itself made this recommendation. I would have to discredit the entire medical establishment to have any chance of having the CMO removed. Let me tell you, in medical bureaucray, it is very difficult to effect change of pesonnel.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Is "First Do No Harm" From the Hippocratic Oath? Myth vs Fact
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/g...craticOath.htm
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Mamboni,
Sounds like fighting this is a lose-lose situation. If you do lose your practice fighting this, your whole community suffers, not just you. We need more doctors like you.
Just throwing that thought out there. If I lost my job over something like a flu shot, it would just be me that's affected. You've got patients you are helping, a family to look after too.
It's important to pick your battles. I like the semantic idea now, just not playing their game.
All the best in whatever you decide to do, and thanks for your contributions on this forum. Try not to stress too much, God bless.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slowbell
Mamboni,
Sounds like fighting this is a lose-lose situation. If you do lose your practice fighting this, your whole community suffers, not just you. We need more doctors like you.
Just throwing that thought out there. If I lost my job over something like a flu shot, it would just be me that's affected. You've got patients you are helping, a family to look after too.
It's important to pick your battles. I like the semantic idea now, just not playing their game.
All the best in whatever you decide to do, and thanks for your contributions on this forum. Try not to stress too much, God bless.
Exactly. Fighting the tyrannical machine at the precipice of economic doom would be a Pyrrhic victory.
When immoral/unjust regulations and laws are the order of the day, it is time to go rogue and survive.
As Hunter once said, "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Time to go pro.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
I had to get a shot or sign this declination form to keep my job at one facility I work at.
Influenza is serious respitory diesese that kills an average of 36,000 persons and
hospitalizes more than 200,000 persons in the United States each year.
2. Influenza vaccination is recommended for me and all other healthcare workers to prevent
influenza disease and its complications, including death.
3. If I contract influenza, I will shed the virus for 24–48 hours before influenza symptoms
appear. My shedding the virus can spread influenza infection to patients in this facility.
4.If I become infected with influenza, even when my symptoms are mild, I can spread severe
illness to others.
5. I understand that the strains of virus that cause influenza infection change almost every year,
which is why a different influenza vaccine is recommended each year.
6.I cannot get the influenza disease from the influenza vaccine.
7. The consequences of my refusing to be vaccinated could endanger my health and the health
of those with whom I have contact, including:
• patients in this healthcare setting
• my coworkers
• my family
• my community
Despite these facts, I am choosing to decline influenza vaccination right now.
I understand that I may change my mind at any time and accept influenza vaccination, if
vaccine is available.
Acknowledgements
Representative
Signature:_________________________________ Date:________________________
I
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Old Herb Lady
I am so sorry for your suffering concerning this matter.
Am I permitted to ask you a very important, powerful question on here concerning this flu shot ?
I won't ask it until you give me permission to do so, that's how intense the question is and
I do not want to put you on the spot, ever, you're under enough stress. :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mamboni
Sure, ask away.
Thanks. As being a staunch anti-vaccination supporter, I am now curious as to your stance on the whole vaccination issue.
My stance is that I do not believe in them at all. 100 % against them, all of them, but that is my world .
My question is do you believe that some vaccinations work and are good for you and other vaccinations, like the flu shot, are bad for you ?
I have seen you advocate a few vaccinations on here like Hep B vax, so I am confused, I thought you supported the polio vax as well.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthre...902-Hepatits-B
The flu shot contains formaldehyde , aluminum and thimerosol (mercury) just like voluntary Hep B vax that you've had before this mandatory flu vax threat.
I don't see how anyone could possibly in good conscience tell you to fight the Zios that are above you.
You are in way too deep & way too long to just lose your practice now all for the good & noble fight of not getting your flu shot.
Do we have any luck in our everyday normal lives fighting the Zios ? They're too big & wayy to powerful to bow down to some
M.D.s who will fight them.
Save yourself the stress and do the whole " I took my vaccination"-post #12)
They are threatening termination here.
To fight them you would have to be an anti-vaccination extremist that does not believe in the shots,
but you've said before on here that you've had other vaccinations.
They will bring your family into it, like if your kids are vaxed, your wife, your vax history, etc.
I do believe you'd be protected by a grandfather clause because you didn't sign a contract stating this mandatory shot when you took the job.
I don't know.
This is just my opinion Mamboni, but you're better off saving yourself alot of grief & suffering if you don't buck them.
If you do buck them, be prepared for HELL and I know of a very, very good school out west to get your Naturopathic Doctor degree.
If you know that you are a good, respected, noble, principled, ethical doctor just keep it at that & go with the flow & save yourself a war.
A private practice, as said here, sounds perfect for you. Then when you retire, you can still work a couple of days a week if you wanted to !
I think this thread needs moved to a members-only area .
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Mamboni, thanks for the enlightening OP, I am sorry to see you in this position, you are not alone though.
You are in a better position than anyone to do the right thing not only for yourself.
I think you have some excellent comments above that I skimmed, I agree with, Gaillo, Uncle Salty, hoarder, etc
Many of your colleagues may not be aware of a lot of the information we have at our disposal from the net.
You can approach this from an educational point of view, educate your colleagues anonymously if possible,
you have email lists, numbers, addresses, of all hospital staff, female nurses especially ? Like Babushka Lady
said, don't identify yourself as the leader of the opposition and do it anonymously, you can make some waves.
You are not alone. Your OP complements a lot of info online, directly from the horses mouth just as you pointed
out.
Live to fight another day is rule number one. Taking care of number one, yourself, comes before that.
Stay anonymous, see what you can do, how much time do you have ? Buy yourself a year like Uncle Salty said.
If you and your colleagues take the shot OR NOT, they will have you doing this every year.
I see this more as a propaganda campaign more than anything else.
Identify the leaders pushing it and see if you can dig up some dirt, their affiliations, etc,
who's getting payouts, do it anonymously. Searches online, search their email address.
There is a history, people fought for freedom and they did it anonymously, stay anonymous.
DMac has a good post, you have some motivated soldiers here in your corner,
first we take the educational approach anonymously, see what materializes.
From there, I would only say that we have a lot to learn from our enemies.
They don't play by rules.
Ignorance is also our main enemy. Unfortunately, if you stand up as a leader to address this, you become a target.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Mamboni you are trying to decide whether to be free person and making your own decisions or to submit to the PTB through blackmail.
The medical system has been corrupted for many years now and it does become important at some stage in our lives to do what is right and not something based on lies.
By taking the correct stand(stick your vac up your....ect) you will find that life will help you out by making the right choice but you need the courage,have you the courage.
If we havnt the courage and they continue on their merry way ,then this is evil and destructive.
Live the truth be the truth for we are the truth and always will be the case.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
First I want to say that this thread is a perfect example why this place really is the best place on the Internet, the free thinking intelligence of the membership is just mindblowing! All advice is just good, for dealing with the issue. There really is nothing wrong with dealing with the issue through the semantic route, you'll keep your job and you don't have the side effects. If you choose the more difficult road of rejecting the vaccine, you will most likely lose your current job, and probably you'll make enemies of some you consider friends today!
However I think you'll do great in private practice, which so far you haven't commented on yet, is that something you have considered to do? Or are you comfortable enough where you are right now? Really the great thing about private practice is that you would get a better clientele of patients, apart from the fact that no one could dictate to you how you should deal with them. Further if you are in private practice you will probably do way better when TSHTF, compared to if you are in the system, cause the system will not work any longer.
Further in your community you can make an example of how to deal with an unjust issue by putting your foot down, and just refuse to comply with their ridiculous demands.
Either way you choose no one should hold a grudge against you for it. It is good to get away from taking a shot that will not benefit you. But you may do much better than that, but it may be a more difficult route, at least in the short run!
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Old Herb Lady
Thanks. As being a staunch anti-vaccination supporter, I am now curious as to your stance on the whole vaccination issue.
My stance is that I do not believe in them at all.
100 % against them,
all of them, but that is my world .
My question is do you believe that some vaccinations work and are good for you and other vaccinations, like the flu shot, are bad for you ?
I have seen you advocate a few vaccinations on here like Hep B vax, so I am confused, I thought you supported the polio vax as well.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthre...902-Hepatits-B
The flu shot contains formaldehyde , aluminum and thimerosol (mercury) just like voluntary Hep B vax that you've had before this mandatory flu vax threat.
I don't see how anyone could possibly in good conscience tell you to fight the Zios that are above you.
You are in way too deep & way too long to just lose your practice now all for the good & noble fight of not getting your flu shot.
Do we have any luck in our everyday normal lives fighting the Zios ? They're too big & wayy to powerful to bow down to some
M.D.s who will fight them.
Save yourself the stress and do the whole " I took my vaccination"-post #12)
They are threatening termination here.
To fight them you would have to be an anti-vaccination extremist that does not believe in the shots,
but you've said before on here that you've had other vaccinations.
They will bring your family into it, like if your kids are vaxed, your wife, your vax history, etc.
I do believe you'd be protected by a grandfather clause because you didn't sign a contract stating this mandatory shot when you took the job.
I don't know.
This is just my opinion Mamboni, but you're better off saving yourself alot of grief & suffering if you don't buck them.
If you do buck them, be prepared for HELL and I know of a very, very good school out west to get your Naturopathic Doctor degree.
If
you know that you are a good, respected, noble, principled, ethical doctor just keep it at that & go with the flow & save yourself a war.
A private practice, as said here, sounds perfect for you. Then when you retire, you can still work a couple of days a week if you wanted to !
I think this thread needs moved to a members-only area .
Yes, there are "good" vaccines. It is a complex question as so many factors are involved: lethality of the infection, transmissability, efficacy of the vaccine, side effects of the vaccine, number of potential lives saved versus lives lost from vaccination. There is never unanimous agreement on whether a vaccine is warranted. But in my opinion under no circumstances should a vaccine be mandated against the individual's will unless it be 100% effective and 100% safe. No such vaccine exists to my knowledge.
The issue of vaccinating health care providers is a thorny one because of the question of patient exposure. In the case of this flu vaccine I do not think it justifies mandatory vaccination. In fact, given it's mediocre efficacy, the same reasons that are used to justify mandatory vaccination would also justify mandatory universal precautions when doctors and nurses are caring for patients. After all, we can estimate that at best only 2/3 of the vaccinated might be protected. Therefore, at least 1/3 of workers, despite vaccination are no less a danger to the patient than an unvaccinated worker. If workers use gloves, gowns and masks and practice universal precautiosn then the need for the vaccine is obviated. Many physicians will get vaccinated as a marketing necessity, fearful that patient might refuse to see them unvaccinated. Do all doctors wear a mask, gloves and gown when seeing patients during flu seasion? Probably not. Some will say it puts a barrier between them and the patient. Others may not see the need. But the solution to preventing flu spread by healthcare workers is not to treat them as soul-less robots to be ordered against their will. The answer is education. If flu vaccine is being mandated to healthcare workers, it indicates to me that there may be serious gaps in education and training of workers.
Professionally, I do not see patients nor their families. And I have minimal contact with hospital staff. I can minimize this risk easily with simple precautions. There is no justification for the flu vaccine in my particular case.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Sunday, September 23, 2012
Mandated Flu Vaccines: A Whole Lotta Nonsense
I spoke at the Healthy Traditions Network annual conference today (9.23.12). A flyer was distributed to those attending the conference that was titled, “Healthcare Workers Protect Your Freedom of Choice.” This flyer explained the flu vaccination conundrum that many health care workers are experiencing. You see, the Powers-That-Be want everyone who works in our hospitals to have a flu shot in order to protect the patients from getting the flu from sick health care workers.
Protecting the patients should be the number one goal of any hospital. However, mandating that every single hospital worker receive the flu vaccine or face termination is not the correct way to improve patient care.
I blogged about the flu vaccine in September and October of 2009—see the archives section on my blog homepage. In the October, 2009 post, here is what I wrote: “The U.S. government and pretty much all mainstream groups claim that the flu shot prevents the flu in those that get the vaccine. However, the flu shots have not been shown to be effective in healthy babies, children with asthma, adults, and the elderly.
In Children: A review of 51 studies which included more than 294,000 children found “no evidence that injecting children 6-24 months of age with a flu shot was any more effective than placebo. In children over two years of age, it was only effective 33% of the time in preventing the flu. (Chochrane Database of Systemic Reviews 2. 2008).
In asthmatic children, the flu shot did not provide any benefit in preventing asthma exacerbations. The authors of this study compared 400 asthmatic children who were vaccinated with a similar number of asthmatic children who were not vaccinated. They found no difference between emergency visits, clinic visits, or hospitalizations in the vaccinated versus the non-vaccinated group. (Arch. Dis. Child. 2004. Aug;89(8):734-5). If this study wasn’t enough to get your attention a new study found that “Children who get the flu vaccine are three times more at risk for hospitalization than children who do not get the flu vaccine.” (American Thoracic Society 105th International Conference, May 15-20, 2009, San Diego, CA.).
According to the CDC, the elderly are a population at increased risk for acquiring the flu and developing complications of the flu. In nursing homes or for the elderly living in the community, researchers found the flu shot was ineffective for preventing the flu. (Chochrane Databse of Systemic Reviews. 3(2006). In fact, the flu shot has never been shown to lower the rate of mortality from the flu in any population, including the elderly.
Clearly, there is NO reason to get the flu shot. It doesn’t prevent the flu and has not been shown to prevent complications from the flu.”
Would I change anything that I wrote about the flu vaccine? No. It was, and is, still true.
However, I can add to it. The Cochrane group is an independent medical research group designed to help physicians put evidence into practice. They do not take Big Pharma money. A 2010 study by the Cochrane group tried to answer the question, “Does seasonal influenza immunization of health care personnel reduce the incidence of influenza and its complications in older residents of long-term facilities?” The authors examined four randomized controlled trials and one cohort study. They found that vaccination of personnel had no effect on the incidence of laboratory-proven influenza, pneumonia, admissions to the hospital, and death from pneumonia. The authors concluded, “There is insufficient evidence to support the vaccination of health care workers as a measure to protect older patients from influenza.” (Am. Fam. Phy. Oct 1, 2010. Vol. 82, No. 7. Pg. 763-4).
So, should all health care workers be mandated to get the flu vaccine? The answer is clear: No. Nobody should be forced to receive a vaccination that is not only ineffective; it is also contaminated with mercury.
What can you do? In Michigan, House Bill 5605 was introduced which would allow health care workers the right to refuse the influenza vaccine as a condition of employment. Representative Gail Haines is the chair of the committee looking at this bill. You can call her and voice your opinion at: 517-373-0615. You can also email her at: GailHaines@house.mi.gov.
In Michigan, more information can be found at www.hcpvc.org.
posted by Dr. David Brownstein @ 5:00 PM http://img2.blogblog.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif
http://drdavidbrownstein.blogspot.co...ole-lotta.html
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Mamboni, as others have pointed out this is an extremely important issue, both practically and in principle. I feel that the fact that doctors and other healthcare workers generally reject forced vaccinations is the only thing that is stopping every single American from being forced to get vaccinations and from there who knows what else.
It's a terrible position to be in when you have to choose between your livelihood and principles (and health).
To me, the most serious issue here is no one accepts liability. If you take the vaccine and get an illness or die, the vaccine company isn't liable and the hospital isn't accepting liability either. They CANNOT make this mandatory, in my opinion, unless someone accepts liability.
So as we've learned many times on this forum, I would make a counter offer. Submit in writing you will accept the vaccine if they agree that they are completely liable for any injury or death that results as a consequence. Put explicit symptoms within a specific time period and specific damages (or ways to calculate damages). See if they are willing to put their money where there mouth is and give a few million to your family if you die.
There is no need for a vote of no confidence. If they truly accept the premise that these vaccines will protect rather than injure you, they should accept liability if instead they injure you. Statistically (1 out of 100,000 odds) they should have the money to cover anyone who is injured. If that is not the case, their whole premise collapses.
If they refuse to accept liability for damages from the mandatory vaccine, consult a lawyer and see if that is legal.
If all else fails, 'take' the vaccine.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Have you searched to see if exemption forms are accepted? Everyone thinks kids must be vaxed to enter school - they tell you that but what most don't know is that all but two states have exemptions that must be accepted. In NC they have a medical exemption (tough to use unless there is a known allergy to an ingredient) and a religious exemption that must be accepted. I typed the forms up myself and gave them to my kids schools (when they attended school) and nobody even blinked. It seems to me there should be an exemption for medical workers as well.
You stated above that the vaccines could protect 2/3 of people vaxed but the studies I've seen do not show that, in fact it's pretty much a fact that flu vaccines do not work at all. I just read an excellent book a few months ago and this was discussed.
http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-nation...vaccine+nation
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mamboni
Yes, there are "good" vaccines. It is a complex question as so many factors are involved: lethality of the infection, transmissability, efficacy of the vaccine, side effects of the vaccine, number of potential lives saved versus lives lost from vaccination. There is never unanimous agreement on whether a vaccine is warranted. But in my opinion under no circumstances should a vaccine be mandated against the individual's will unless it be 100% effective and 100% safe. No such vaccine exists to my knowledge.
The issue of vaccinating health care providers is a thorny one because of the question of patient exposure. In the case of this flu vaccine I do not think it justifies mandatory vaccination. In fact, given it's mediocre efficacy, the same reasons that are used to justify mandatory vaccination would also justify mandatory universal precautions when doctors and nurses are caring for patients. After all, we can estimate that at best only 2/3 of the vaccinated might be protected. Therefore, at least 1/3 of workers, despite vaccination are no less a danger to the patient than an unvaccinated worker. If workers use gloves, gowns and masks and practice universal precautiosn then the need for the vaccine is obviated. Many physicians will get vaccinated as a marketing necessity, fearful that patient might refuse to see them unvaccinated. Do all doctors wear a mask, gloves and gown when seeing patients during flu seasion? Probably not. Some will say it puts a barrier between them and the patient. Others may not see the need. But the solution to preventing flu spread by healthcare workers is not to treat them as soul-less robots to be ordered against their will. The answer is education. If flu vaccine is being mandated to healthcare workers, it indicates to me that there may be serious gaps in education and training of workers.
Professionally, I do not see patients nor their families. And I have minimal contact with hospital staff. I can minimize this risk easily with simple precautions. There is no justification for the flu vaccine in my particular case.
Thanks Doc.
Of course no one should EVER be forced into this, ever. So then if you do decide to fight the good fight ....then at least you'll need to know where to start.......
You are fortunate enough to live & work in a state that does NOT require mandatory vaccination admnistration.
USE THAT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Write a letter & get a RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION FORM & give it to the head honcho at the hospital who is advocating all this nonsense.
I have to do this to save my kid's life every year ! Doctors are no different ! You can do it as well.
He doesn't know that you can do this, Mamboni ! Give him a surprise.
http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/StateVaccAp...al%20Employees
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sunshine05
Have you searched to see if exemption forms are accepted? Everyone thinks kids must be vaxed to enter school - they tell you that but what most don't know is that all but two states have exemptions that must be accepted. In NC they have a medical exemption (tough to use unless there is a known allergy to an ingredient) and a religious exemption that must be accepted. I typed the forms up myself and gave them to my kids schools (when they attended school) and nobody even blinked. It seems to me there should be an exemption for medical workers as well.
You stated above that the vaccines could protect 2/3 of people vaxed but the studies I've seen do not show that, in fact it's pretty much a fact that flu vaccines do not work at all. I just read an excellent book a few months ago and this was discussed.
http://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-nation...vaccine+nation
I was being generous with the 2/3 estimate of vaccine efficacy. To wit, approx. 1/3 have natural immunity and the vaccine might add another 1/3 as it is arguably 33% effective. But, from an epidemiologic perspective, 33% efficacy is virtually worhtless in prevention of spread of the infection.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sunshine05
Excellent site - many useful links there - thank you.
I cannot utilize the religious exemption as it were.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
Quote:
So as we've learned many times on this forum, I would make a counter offer. Submit in writing you will accept the vaccine if they agree that they are completely liable for any injury or death that results as a consequence.
Considering you're talking about your livelihood here, it's only fair, reasonable, and prudent that *someone* (although I have serious doubts about any legal fiction doing so lol) assume full liability for something which poses so many REAL AND SUBSTANTIAL threats.
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Re: If I refuse the Flu Vaccine my medical practice will be terminated.
How long will it be before everyone must comply with the vaccine flavor of the moment? This time they're starting with the health care workers and I think they'll try working their way down, however possible.
