Swiss may grant unconditional income for all

http://youtu.be/iqKkERp-ias

http://youtu.be/iqKkERp-ias

2 comments:

Wrong. If their basic needs are met they will strive to do far greater things. Only lazy, greedy Teapublicans and Ayn Rand addled Libertarians think that everyone is "lazy"; because THEY are. It's classic projection. Everyone else knows that those who have their basic needs met will focus their energies on accomplishing great things; new businesses, great art, music, scientific discovery, technological advancement. It's psychology 101; we all want to make our mark, create, and do great things.

· 8 in reply to

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THIS... you're so right. Another positive thing would be the INCREASE of moral attitudes, because people in "survival mode" are in a circumstantial, not idealistic, mindset. The reason elitist sociopaths, and greedy egomaniacs, continue to actually work against everyone being comfortable & dignified, is because they like seeing people grovel (begging for help, turning to crime, prostituting themselves, blaming immigrants for the economy, etc.) so they can feel empowered to control the citizens.

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Originally Posted by Cebu_4_2

http://youtu.be/iqKkERp-ias

http://youtu.be/iqKkERp-ias

2 comments:

Wrong. If their basic needs are met they will strive to do far greater things. Only lazy, greedy Teapublicans and Ayn Rand addled Libertarians think that everyone is "lazy"; because THEY are. It's classic projection. Everyone else knows that those who have their basic needs met will focus their energies on accomplishing great things; new businesses, great art, music, scientific discovery, technological advancement. It's psychology 101; we all want to make our mark, create, and do great things.

· 8 in reply to

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THIS... you're so right. Another positive thing would be the INCREASE of moral attitudes, because people in "survival mode" are in a circumstantial, not idealistic, mindset. The reason elitist sociopaths, and greedy egomaniacs, continue to actually work against everyone being comfortable & dignified, is because they like seeing people grovel (begging for help, turning to crime, prostituting themselves, blaming immigrants for the economy, etc.) so they can feel empowered to control the citizens.

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The comments are so backward and laughable that they would seem to be sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by woodman

The comments are so backward and laughable that they would seem to be sarcasm.

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Yes the comments are ridiculous. Either well meaning idiots or paid government shills.

I have seen what free money does to people. Our native population here in Canada receive money from the government. They have the highest rate of crime, lowest life span and live in poverty even though they get enough money to live well. Sounds like just what you would want to do to enslave a population.

Simply matching U.S. policy of the last 30 years.

No to be lost in the shuffle


At that rally there was not a black or brown face to be found.

A rather homogeneous society that is well armed

And they are requesting their wealth be distributed amongst their people.

I wonder what the corolations are?

So what happens when all the jobs are automated by robots, the rich people own the robots, and there isn't any work for the average person? That's what this basic income thing is supposed to solve.

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Originally Posted by vacuum

So what happens when all the jobs are automated by robots, the rich people own the robots, and there isn't any work for the average person? That's what this basic income thing is supposed to solve.

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There is another solution that appeals to the elites: DEPOPULATION. Remember the Kissinger term 'useless eaters'?


Hatha

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Originally Posted by Son-of-Liberty

Yes the comments are ridiculous. Either well meaning idiots or paid government shills.

I have seen what free money does to people. Our native population here in Canada receive money from the government. They have the highest rate of crime, lowest life span and live in poverty even though they get enough money to live well. Sounds like just what you would want to do to enslave a population.

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Sounds exactly like the American Indians down here. But here, they give them casinos.

They'll probably raise their VAT tax to 100%.

Money should come from .gov as 0% interest long term loans.

Easy come, easy go...

There are limits. When you trade portions of your life for money you automatically are more frugal and avoid squandering your efforts because this would require you to trade larger portions of your life for money. The Rube Goldberg {or should I say Robin Hood} funding for this fantasy will be its undoing.

I'll try what the swiss are smoking.

haven't listened,


AFP Radio Network 9/30/2013

http://loveforlife.com.au/files/cov-f_0.gif

On the Sept. 30 edition of "Beyond Exposure" by AFP Roving Editor Mark Anderson, the guest is Francois de Siebenthal, one of the world's most active and knowledgeable monetary reformers. Learn about the Universal Basic Income (UBI) proposal in Switzerland, which was first covered by the AFP newspaper in the fall of 2012. The UBI is seen as unabashed welfare by some, but as a necessary civil freedom by others. This proposal, for which enough ballot signatures have been gathered, may pave the way to free citizens from their debt shackles by providing purchasing power outside the interest-bearing-loan racket, even though it may carry some social welfare tenets that many conservatives have been led to believe are always a negative. Tune in for a challenging and provocative look at this little-known development.
Show-page

32k CF Download

Was all that real gold coins? They said 50 tons dumped on the street, 400,000 swiss franc gold coins. It looks like more than that though. That looks like several million coins. I have a hard time believing they let folks walk all over it, toss coins about, etc.

Just some clad coins.

I was still impressed they got metal coins for their demostration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQ8wbhUq44

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Originally Posted by Hitcher

Was all that real gold coins? They said 50 tons dumped on the street, 400,000 swiss franc gold coins. It looks like more than that though. That looks like several million coins. I have a hard time believing they let folks walk all over it, toss coins about, etc.

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It was probably fünfrappen coins, a cupro-nickel alloy coin, that have a value of 0.05 CHF. So you get 8 million of these gold look alikes for 400.000 Swiss Francs...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fünfrappen.jpg

They are where the Templars ended up.

neutral two world wars and did all the banking...or WW2 would not have been possible.

They are connected to London and Rome.

The population is only 7 million...there you go...the banking system in Switzerland in relation to the population is massive.

The fed wire in 2003...had 3 Trillion dollars worth of bits flow through it.

If Obama was the savior and not a puppet that could be disintegrated in the blink of an eye.

he could just tax that a tad.

every day on average 8 billion flows into the US government and 10 billion out...with 2 billion a day being borrowing...or treasury issuing.

so the debt limit has to be raised by 2 billion a day just to sustain the debt and not default.

3 Trillion a day through the FED wire.

8 billion a day through the federal Government.

Which government is bigger?

Not the one headed by the zombie.

a tax on the fedwire of .004% = 12 Billion dollars a day...enough to more than supply the US government and eliminate all the current income taxes...so there is some weird math going on here.

Well Switzerland has a massive banking system in relation to its population way bigger than the one in the USA.

Zurich is the number 6 global financial center.

and Geneva is number 8.

That is really the only thing that sustains Switzerland now...the money laundering operation.

It's interconnection to the global trade system.

When the USA caves in...they will be blown out.

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Originally Posted by Shami-Amourae

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQ8wbhUq44

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Damn, first time I'm been dissappointed with Ramzpaul. Seems he picked up a Communist earworm over in Europe. Not looking forward to his new utopia of the rulers paying everyone a "living wage", which is just enough to waste your life sitting on a cheap couch watching their mind-numbing propaganda. Of course it will be illegal to do anything else, because it will be deemed "not fair" to others. Damn, Ramzpaul.... just damn.

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Originally Posted by VX1

Damn, first time I'm been dissappointed with Ramzpaul. Seems he picked up a Communist earworm over in Europe. Not looking forward to his new utopia of the rulers paying everyone a "living wage", which is just enough to waste your life sitting on a cheap couch watching their mind-numbing propaganda. Of course it will be illegal to do anything else, because it will be deemed "not fair" to others. Damn, Ramzpaul.... just damn.

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What if he's right though? How will we deal with automation? More and more people will be out of work as time goes on. How can free-market Capitalism work when most people aren't needed for work anymore?

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Originally Posted by Shami-Amourae

What if he's right though? How will we deal with automation? More and more people will be out of work as time goes on. How can free-market Capitalism work when most people aren't needed for work anymore?

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if this is the case why would farmers feed the world

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Originally Posted by Shami-Amourae

What if he's right though? How will we deal with automation? More and more people will be out of work as time goes on. How can free-market Capitalism work when most people aren't needed for work anymore?

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That is a good point. It is probably a better idea to reasonably tax the automated mass production, give people a live-able salary, than hire a bunch of government bureaucrats, that supposedly are there to administrate the welfare aparatus, but actually are more of a hassle in people's lives. A lot of people will still work, but maybe they choose to do work that are improving theirs and others around them lives, building boats, houses, gardening, sewing clothes, cooking, brewing beer, theater, alternative medicine, etc. I think a lot of human potential is tied up in fear of losing ones livelihood, and leads us to destructive ways...

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Originally Posted by Shami-Amourae

What if he's right though? How will we deal with automation? More and more people will be out of work as time goes on. How can free-market Capitalism work when most people aren't needed for work anymore?

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I'm just not a believer that there will be nothing for us to do because of automation. Sounds an awful lot like the patent office's infamous "nothing left to invent". The invention of the wheel didn't just leave people free for just cave drawings. The machines of the industrial age didn't leave us without work, the invention of the car wasn't the end-all of travel, and although the computer age automated menial jobs of counting and such, it created the need for skilled and highly lucrative jobs. No, each time, we just accomplished more, travelled farther, and gained new skills.

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Originally Posted by mick silver

if this is the case why would farmers feed the world

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To have a higher standard of living. If you have a base income it shouldn't make you rich. One of these biggest issues I see with welfare now is you can make more money on welfare than you can on a minimum wage job. Why would anyone work for minimum wage if they can make more on welfare?

I'm not saying I like this too guys. I'm just saying we need to find a way for society to deal with automation. People can't continue to live with the current system.

we will , and there will be alot less people in the world . i see this coming

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Originally Posted by Shami-Amourae

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPQ8wbhUq44

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Ramzpaul makes some good points but I think the free market still can provide solutions to this problem.

His main point was that robotics and computing would make the worker obsolete and that would make people poorer and poorer. I do agree that this is a problem but it is compounded by some other major factors.

Mainly over-taxation and over-regulation. Not only do these hamstring the people from making a living but they also generally do not apply to the large corporation that the people have to compete against.

If we were to take back control of government and only tax and regulate corporations who are legal fictions and seem to be the main beneficiaries of the rapid technological progress being made because they have the money to implement it.

If the people running the corporations want the asset and liability protections that a corporation provides then they can foot the bill to run the government. Currently they are getting away with murder, some of them literally with GMO's and pharmaceuticals that kill thousands and at the same time are exempt from certain regulations and taxes.

In an environment with no income tax, sales tax or property tax and little regulation at least the people would be in a position to innovate and then keep the fruits of their labor. Corporations would be on the hook to provide the funding for essential government services.

This solution makes a lot more sense then taxing the crap out of the productive to hand out to the less productive while giving the corporations a free pass.

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Originally Posted by mick silver

we will and there will be alot less people in the world . i see this coming

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The Elites vision is to simple wipe most of us out fix this automation problem. That's their solution.

The other solution is the guaranteed income. I can't think of any other right now.



The Elite are also going to be merging with the machines. Their future is on a silicon chip. At least, that's how they see it.

do what works.


i don't think this is necessarily a bad idea.

there's also the part about Switzerland being a democracy.


couldn't work in the US because of the racial make-up and other sociological divisions.

To expand on this problem of unfair taxation and regulation. Many things that would be a tax write off for a corp are not tax write offs for people. For example food should be a tax write off for income tax purposes, without food you could not work, it is essential and yet you cannot deduct it from your income tax. Transportation costs are also not a write off for the employee yet should be. If you cannot get to work how can you produce and pay taxes? Corporations can write off vehicle and travel expenses. Shelter should also be a tax write off for the average taxpayer, without shelter you could not be productive, it is essential. Corporations can write off the expenses associated with real estate. Mortgage or rent, utilities and property tax.

If you made food, transportation and shelter a write off how many people would have an income big enough to tax?

The property tax forces you to work in the system. If you don't pay it they will take your land. Without property tax at least once you bought land you could grow food and survive and they could never take it from you but because of property tax you are forced to work and interact with the system.

As usual the problem is government making unfair rules and then trying to force us to play along.

Look at the hobbit house that couple in the UK built as a solution to high property values? An innovative solution to the problem of overpriced real estate. Of course the local government is forcing them to tear it down even though they are not causing a problem for anyone.

Any basic income is going to be relatively small compared to if you took up a profession. So people will obviously compete just as heavily for the jobs that are available then as they do now. But people will also have the option of focusing their energy on research, art, writing, horticulture, writing free software, etc.

I don't know if it would work as it is being proposed. But there needs to be something along these lines at some point. Perhaps it will simply be a different way money is created, for example. What if the basic income was the only money that existed? People with huge robot factories would get rich by collecting up all the basic incomes from people buying their stuff. Or what if it becomes a bunch of ad hoc virtual currencies not administered (or easily taxable) by any government? What if people's values shift away from materialism, such that they're willing to spend more of their time and energy creating non-tangible things and exchanging them with others who do the same? Once technology provides for people's basic physical needs at a very low price then this situation becomes possible.

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How can free-market Capitalism work

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I'm thinking your very confused on the concept of '(high finance) capitalism'. The notions of 'capitalism*' and 'free enterprise' are mutually exclusive.

*capitalism and Communism being the two sides of the same dirty coin

Something robotics and automation will NEVER achieve: CRAFTSMANSHIP

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Originally Posted by vacuum

Any basic income is going to be relatively small compared to if you took up a profession. So people will obviously compete just as heavily for the jobs that are available then as they do now. But people will also have the option of focusing their energy on research, art, writing, horticulture, writing free software, etc.

I don't know if it would work as it is being proposed. But there needs to be something along these lines at some point. Perhaps it will simply be a different way money is created, for example. What if the basic income was the only money that existed? People with huge robot factories would get rich by collecting up all the basic incomes from people buying their stuff. Or what if it becomes a bunch of ad hoc virtual currencies not administered (or easily taxable) by any government? What if people's values shift away from materialism, such that they're willing to spend more of their time and energy creating non-tangible things and exchanging them with others who do the same? Once technology provides for people's basic physical needs at a very low price then this situation becomes possible.

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I don't think it can work. The Native American population in Canada has all their needs met by the government as compensation for stealing their land. They are the least productive, least literate, highest drug abuse, lowest life expectancy group. Of course their are exceptions but not that many compare to the overall group. They also have their own land that is tax exempt. With all these advantages you would think they would be productive.

The few I have met that are productive don't live on the reserve and may not get the full benefits that the others do. I worked for one that was a really good guy, smart and hard working but he did not have a treaty card for some reason and generally despised the behavior of the other natives.

If someone gave me $2900 a month I wouldn't really work at all, why bother? All my basic needs would be met. I might tinker around 2-3 hours a day but would probably only generate a few thousand dollars a year. I would move out far into the boonies where the $2900 would go much further and buy land and grow my own food. I would live very well but without adding much value to society.

However when someone is brought up under these circumstances and never learned to work hard first place they basically become useless trash with no work ethic or ambition. To drown out their boredom and low self esteem they resort to self destructive behavior like alcohol and drug abuse. They don't value the gift they are given and squander it.

You've heard the stories about the people that win the lotto and then a few years later are broke.

exactly... sound money cannot change the outcome as long as people believe in "the sky is the limit-type of speculations". It is the multi-layered games that prompt people to withdraw more money than they put in the stock market that enable the NWO. In my view capitalism and communism have the same ending: fascism. There is nothing wrong with the medium (of exchange) but the mindset itself... but as soon as you address the mindset and correct it, then the medium becomes unnecessary...

I think that an absolutely sound monetary system (and full transparency) has no growth as it maintains the zero sum game between losers and winners. That is the shabby secret that von Mises and the like will never tell you. They are deceptive at their own level, perhaps are they a controlled opposition. Something to chew on.

and also, I think that the Swiss experiment is going to fail. One embraces either one side of the coin or the other and it feels like that they are trying to find a compromise in the middle.... the only choice we have: money (boom-bust, control) ... or money-free and peace throughout the world with no elites

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Originally Posted by midnight rambler

*capitalism and Communism being the two sides of the same dirty coin

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Originally Posted by Shami-Amourae

What if he's right though? How will we deal with automation? More and more people will be out of work as time goes on. How can free-market Capitalism work when most people aren't needed for work anymore?

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I am not sure that robots actually replace workers, but they do make them more productive. In Japan, if they did not have automation, they would not ab able to make all the stuff they make, and they do not have an unemployment problem (and are expanding into China and other places). If they ever devised robots capable of replacing all the jobs, someone would still have to make, repair, deploy, maintain, replace, etc. the robots. Stories like I robot are science fiction. Though robots can calculate, they still cannot think. On the other hand, in the short term there will be some pain.

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Originally Posted by VX1

Damn, first time I'm been dissappointed with Ramzpaul. Seems he picked up a Communist earworm over in Europe. Not looking forward to his new utopia of the rulers paying everyone a "living wage", which is just enough to waste your life sitting on a cheap couch watching their mind-numbing propaganda. Of course it will be illegal to do anything else, because it will be deemed "not fair" to others. Damn, Ramzpaul.... just damn.

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$2800 a month will translate into $2800 only buying 1 bag of groceries in Switzerland by years end.

All money has to be issued to be returned on credit, not as interest based debt.

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Originally Posted by Son-of-Liberty

I don't think it can work. The Native American population in Canada has all their needs met by the government as compensation for stealing their land. They are the least productive, least literate, highest drug abuse, lowest life expectancy group. Of course their are exceptions but not that many compare to the overall group. They also have their own land that is tax exempt. With all these advantages you would think they would be productive.

The few I have met that are productive don't live on the reserve and may not get the full benefits that the others do. I worked for one that was a really good guy, smart and hard working but he did not have a treaty card for some reason and generally despised the behavior of the other natives.

If someone gave me $2900 a month I wouldn't really work at all, why bother? All my basic needs would be met. I might tinker around 2-3 hours a day but would probably only generate a few thousand dollars a year. I would move out far into the boonies where the $2900 would go much further and buy land and grow my own food. I would live very well but without adding much value to society.

However when someone is brought up under these circumstances and never learned to work hard first place they basically become useless trash with no work ethic or ambition. To drown out their boredom and low self esteem they resort to self destructive behavior like alcohol and drug abuse. They don't value the gift they are given and squander it.

You've heard the stories about the people that win the lotto and then a few years later are broke.

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This is true, we tend to have the inherent flaw that we must be kept busy otherwise we just self-destruct. That's a problem which I don't know how to fix. It's similar I think to the problem that people want to be slaves and need leaders.

In the end it might come down to one of these instead of a free basic income:

The Minimum Wage Machine

http://i.imgur.com/yNVprhg.png

This machine allows anyone to work for minimum wage for as long as they like. Turning the crank on the side releases one penny every 4.97 seconds, for a total of $7.25 per hour. This corresponds to minimum wage for a person in New York.

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Originally Posted by vacuum

This is true, we tend to have the inherent flaw that we must be kept busy otherwise we just self-destruct. That's a problem which I don't know how to fix.

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Human nature isn't a problem to be fixed, it just is, and to understand it, it must simply be accepted.

The saying goes, the body fuels the mind, and an active mind is never bored. A basic income, while it seems might encourage people to become fat and lazy, in the right environment, it might actually create, in certain folks, a drive to achieve things that would not otherwise happen.

Why do men climb mountains? for example, because they are there? They climb them, because they are comfortable in life. The men that climb mountains do not worry about money, the economy, etc. They are comfortable. Thus, they SEEK for something more. That's the answer to your question.

I believe this is what Switzerland has realized. If they make their folks comfortable. They will not be lazy and content, they will seek. By seeking new ideas, being free to chase dreams, perhaps that is what the new world may be about.

I am not sure something like this would work or not... but I am sure that the system the way it is now is making many people just give up as they see no hope in fighting the system trying to make a living and a future for themselves and their children.

The system we have now is rigged and keeps people where they are making sure that a few can get ahead to inspire others to try. Like the lottery where only a few can really improve their lives. You work hard your whole life... save money for your retirement and then find out that that money has been deflated in purchasing power through deception and the funds you thought you had really are not enough.

Until we destroy the old system and replace it with one that uses sound money we are never going to get off this tread mill TPTB have created to serve their purposes of making them wealthy and keep us in control our entire lives.

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Originally Posted by Son-of-Liberty

I don't think it can work. The Native American population in Canada has all their needs met by the government as compensation for stealing their land. They are the least productive, least literate, highest drug abuse, lowest life expectancy group. Of course their are exceptions but not that many compare to the overall group. They also have their own land that is tax exempt. With all these advantages you would think they would be productive.

The few I have met that are productive don't live on the reserve and may not get the full benefits that the others do. I worked for one that was a really good guy, smart and hard working but he did not have a treaty card for some reason and generally despised the behavior of the other natives.

If someone gave me $2900 a month I wouldn't really work at all, why bother? All my basic needs would be met. I might tinker around 2-3 hours a day but would probably only generate a few thousand dollars a year. I would move out far into the boonies where the $2900 would go much further and buy land and grow my own food. I would live very well but without adding much value to society.

However when someone is brought up under these circumstances and never learned to work hard first place they basically become useless trash with no work ethic or ambition. To drown out their boredom and low self esteem they resort to self destructive behavior like alcohol and drug abuse. They don't value the gift they are given and squander it.

You've heard the stories about the people that win the lotto and then a few years later are broke.

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You bring up good points. As I understand it inyuns have a genetical difficulty handling alcohol, plus their ancestors were broken down to the point it became a family tradition to become alcoholic. Giving these people money is probably the worst you can do, but if you start off with a population that have naturally had a strong work ethic, like the Swiss, maybe you'ld get totally different results. I think so!

You nailed it...

I am flying back to NM tonight and these few days in Manhattan have been enlightening to say the least. The problem is that a when people must be what they $pend (tell me how much you spend and I will tell you how/who you are) there is no other incentives than working 2 or 3 jobs or be an insider (an individual knowing how to suck money out of the system with the least efforts) . That's the 2 kinds of folks you have here in the big apple....and it works the same everywhere, in big cities it is just more blatant.

so as long as we don't fix that, people will tend to be lazy and get fat if getting any form of gov welfare. It is a way for individuals to say no to competition, just like addictions, etc... when a system is pushed to the extremes it always creates opposite trends that eventually make it dysfunctional. That's the natural laws of dualities.

We need a system that meets human aspirations and potential.... it has gone otherwise for millennia. All our inventions were created out of neurosis/psychosis and therefore cannot be used to bettering Mankind... we have destroyed everything, everything is a lie...

A emphatic system has the least negative side effects and is the most stimulating creatively speaking. Money is coercive, if one does not win, one loses... and we have to get rid of this mindset one way or another, or we wont make it as a species. I hope its not too late.

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Originally Posted by Hitcher

Human nature isn't a problem to be fixed, it just is, and to understand it, it must simply be accepted.

The saying goes, the body fuels the mind, and an active mind is never bored. A basic income, while it seems might encourage people to become fat and lazy, in the right environment, it might actually create, in certain folks, a drive to achieve things that would not otherwise happen.

Why do men climb mountains? for example, because they are there? They climb them, because they are comfortable in life. The men that climb mountains do not worry about money, the economy, etc. They are comfortable. Thus, they SEEK for something more. That's the answer to your question.

I believe this is what Switzerland has realized. If they make their folks comfortable. They will not be lazy and content, they will seek. By seeking new ideas, being free to chase dreams, perhaps that is what the new world may be about.

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