Swiss may grant unconditional income for all

[midnight rambler]

Something robotics and automation will NEVER achieve: CRAFTSMANSHIP

[Son-of-Liberty]

Any basic income is going to be relatively small compared to if you took up a profession. So people will obviously compete just as heavily for the jobs that are available then as they do now. But people will also have the option of focusing their energy on research, art, writing, horticulture, writing free software, etc.

I don't know if it would work as it is being proposed. But there needs to be something along these lines at some point. Perhaps it will simply be a different way money is created, for example. What if the basic income was the only money that existed? People with huge robot factories would get rich by collecting up all the basic incomes from people buying their stuff. Or what if it becomes a bunch of ad hoc virtual currencies not administered (or easily taxable) by any government? What if people's values shift away from materialism, such that they're willing to spend more of their time and energy creating non-tangible things and exchanging them with others who do the same? Once technology provides for people's basic physical needs at a very low price then this situation becomes possible.

I don't think it can work. The Native American population in Canada has all their needs met by the government as compensation for stealing their land. They are the least productive, least literate, highest drug abuse, lowest life expectancy group. Of course their are exceptions but not that many compare to the overall group. They also have their own land that is tax exempt. With all these advantages you would think they would be productive.

The few I have met that are productive don't live on the reserve and may not get the full benefits that the others do. I worked for one that was a really good guy, smart and hard working but he did not have a treaty card for some reason and generally despised the behavior of the other natives.

If someone gave me $2900 a month I wouldn't really work at all, why bother? All my basic needs would be met. I might tinker around 2-3 hours a day but would probably only generate a few thousand dollars a year. I would move out far into the boonies where the $2900 would go much further and buy land and grow my own food. I would live very well but without adding much value to society.

However when someone is brought up under these circumstances and never learned to work hard first place they basically become useless trash with no work ethic or ambition. To drown out their boredom and low self esteem they resort to self destructive behavior like alcohol and drug abuse. They don't value the gift they are given and squander it.

You've heard the stories about the people that win the lotto and then a few years later are broke.

[singular_me]

exactly... sound money cannot change the outcome as long as people believe in "the sky is the limit-type of speculations". It is the multi-layered games that prompt people to withdraw more money than they put in the stock market that enable the NWO. In my view capitalism and communism have the same ending: fascism. There is nothing wrong with the medium (of exchange) but the mindset itself... but as soon as you address the mindset and correct it, then the medium becomes unnecessary...

I think that an absolutely sound monetary system (and full transparency) has no growth as it maintains the zero sum game between losers and winners. That is the shabby secret that von Mises and the like will never tell you. They are deceptive at their own level, perhaps are they a controlled opposition. Something to chew on.

and also, I think that the Swiss experiment is going to fail. One embraces either one side of the coin or the other and it feels like that they are trying to find a compromise in the middle.... the only choice we have: money (boom-bust, control) ... or money-free and peace throughout the world with no elites

*capitalism and Communism being the two sides of the same dirty coin

[JohnQPublic]

What if he's right though? How will we deal with automation? More and more people will be out of work as time goes on. How can free-market Capitalism work when most people aren't needed for work anymore?

I am not sure that robots actually replace workers, but they do make them more productive. In Japan, if they did not have automation, they would not ab able to make all the stuff they make, and they do not have an unemployment problem (and are expanding into China and other places). If they ever devised robots capable of replacing all the jobs, someone would still have to make, repair, deploy, maintain, replace, etc. the robots. Stories like I robot are science fiction. Though robots can calculate, they still cannot think. On the other hand, in the short term there will be some pain.

[Horn]

Damn, first time I'm been dissappointed with Ramzpaul. Seems he picked up a Communist earworm over in Europe. Not looking forward to his new utopia of the rulers paying everyone a "living wage", which is just enough to waste your life sitting on a cheap couch watching their mind-numbing propaganda. Of course it will be illegal to do anything else, because it will be deemed "not fair" to others. Damn, Ramzpaul.... just damn.

$2800 a month will translate into $2800 only buying 1 bag of groceries in Switzerland by years end.

All money has to be issued to be returned on credit, not as interest based debt.

[vacuum]

I don't think it can work. The Native American population in Canada has all their needs met by the government as compensation for stealing their land. They are the least productive, least literate, highest drug abuse, lowest life expectancy group. Of course their are exceptions but not that many compare to the overall group. They also have their own land that is tax exempt. With all these advantages you would think they would be productive.

The few I have met that are productive don't live on the reserve and may not get the full benefits that the others do. I worked for one that was a really good guy, smart and hard working but he did not have a treaty card for some reason and generally despised the behavior of the other natives.

If someone gave me $2900 a month I wouldn't really work at all, why bother? All my basic needs would be met. I might tinker around 2-3 hours a day but would probably only generate a few thousand dollars a year. I would move out far into the boonies where the $2900 would go much further and buy land and grow my own food. I would live very well but without adding much value to society.

However when someone is brought up under these circumstances and never learned to work hard first place they basically become useless trash with no work ethic or ambition. To drown out their boredom and low self esteem they resort to self destructive behavior like alcohol and drug abuse. They don't value the gift they are given and squander it.

You've heard the stories about the people that win the lotto and then a few years later are broke.

This is true, we tend to have the inherent flaw that we must be kept busy otherwise we just self-destruct. That's a problem which I don't know how to fix. It's similar I think to the problem that people want to be slaves and need leaders.

In the end it might come down to one of these instead of a free basic income:

The Minimum Wage Machine

http://i.imgur.com/yNVprhg.png

This machine allows anyone to work for minimum wage for as long as they like. Turning the crank on the side releases one penny every 4.97 seconds, for a total of $7.25 per hour. This corresponds to minimum wage for a person in New York.

[Hitch]

This is true, we tend to have the inherent flaw that we must be kept busy otherwise we just self-destruct. That's a problem which I don't know how to fix.

Human nature isn't a problem to be fixed, it just is, and to understand it, it must simply be accepted.

The saying goes, the body fuels the mind, and an active mind is never bored. A basic income, while it seems might encourage people to become fat and lazy, in the right environment, it might actually create, in certain folks, a drive to achieve things that would not otherwise happen.

Why do men climb mountains? for example, because they are there? They climb them, because they are comfortable in life. The men that climb mountains do not worry about money, the economy, etc. They are comfortable. Thus, they SEEK for something more. That's the answer to your question.

I believe this is what Switzerland has realized. If they make their folks comfortable. They will not be lazy and content, they will seek. By seeking new ideas, being free to chase dreams, perhaps that is what the new world may be about.

[Celtic Rogue]

I am not sure something like this would work or not... but I am sure that the system the way it is now is making many people just give up as they see no hope in fighting the system trying to make a living and a future for themselves and their children.

The system we have now is rigged and keeps people where they are making sure that a few can get ahead to inspire others to try. Like the lottery where only a few can really improve their lives. You work hard your whole life... save money for your retirement and then find out that that money has been deflated in purchasing power through deception and the funds you thought you had really are not enough.

Until we destroy the old system and replace it with one that uses sound money we are never going to get off this tread mill TPTB have created to serve their purposes of making them wealthy and keep us in control our entire lives.

[Neuro]

I don't think it can work. The Native American population in Canada has all their needs met by the government as compensation for stealing their land. They are the least productive, least literate, highest drug abuse, lowest life expectancy group. Of course their are exceptions but not that many compare to the overall group. They also have their own land that is tax exempt. With all these advantages you would think they would be productive.

The few I have met that are productive don't live on the reserve and may not get the full benefits that the others do. I worked for one that was a really good guy, smart and hard working but he did not have a treaty card for some reason and generally despised the behavior of the other natives.

If someone gave me $2900 a month I wouldn't really work at all, why bother? All my basic needs would be met. I might tinker around 2-3 hours a day but would probably only generate a few thousand dollars a year. I would move out far into the boonies where the $2900 would go much further and buy land and grow my own food. I would live very well but without adding much value to society.

However when someone is brought up under these circumstances and never learned to work hard first place they basically become useless trash with no work ethic or ambition. To drown out their boredom and low self esteem they resort to self destructive behavior like alcohol and drug abuse. They don't value the gift they are given and squander it.

You've heard the stories about the people that win the lotto and then a few years later are broke.

You bring up good points. As I understand it inyuns have a genetical difficulty handling alcohol, plus their ancestors were broken down to the point it became a family tradition to become alcoholic. Giving these people money is probably the worst you can do, but if you start off with a population that have naturally had a strong work ethic, like the Swiss, maybe you'ld get totally different results. I think so!

[singular_me]

You nailed it...

I am flying back to NM tonight and these few days in Manhattan have been enlightening to say the least. The problem is that a when people must be what they $pend (tell me how much you spend and I will tell you how/who you are) there is no other incentives than working 2 or 3 jobs or be an insider (an individual knowing how to suck money out of the system with the least efforts) . That's the 2 kinds of folks you have here in the big apple....and it works the same everywhere, in big cities it is just more blatant.

so as long as we don't fix that, people will tend to be lazy and get fat if getting any form of gov welfare. It is a way for individuals to say no to competition, just like addictions, etc... when a system is pushed to the extremes it always creates opposite trends that eventually make it dysfunctional. That's the natural laws of dualities.

We need a system that meets human aspirations and potential.... it has gone otherwise for millennia. All our inventions were created out of neurosis/psychosis and therefore cannot be used to bettering Mankind... we have destroyed everything, everything is a lie...

A emphatic system has the least negative side effects and is the most stimulating creatively speaking. Money is coercive, if one does not win, one loses... and we have to get rid of this mindset one way or another, or we wont make it as a species. I hope its not too late.

Human nature isn't a problem to be fixed, it just is, and to understand it, it must simply be accepted.

The saying goes, the body fuels the mind, and an active mind is never bored. A basic income, while it seems might encourage people to become fat and lazy, in the right environment, it might actually create, in certain folks, a drive to achieve things that would not otherwise happen.

Why do men climb mountains? for example, because they are there? They climb them, because they are comfortable in life. The men that climb mountains do not worry about money, the economy, etc. They are comfortable. Thus, they SEEK for something more. That's the answer to your question.

I believe this is what Switzerland has realized. If they make their folks comfortable. They will not be lazy and content, they will seek. By seeking new ideas, being free to chase dreams, perhaps that is what the new world may be about.