The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Pro thread. G Rated.

[Janadele]

I have just joined this forum and was straightway confronted with misrepresentations of my faith. My responses resulted in questions off topic to those threads. Hence, a new thread for those who may have genuine interest in obtaining a true answer to a sincere question they may have. Please do not post anti-Mormon literature to this thread, I have no intention of bashing my head against a brick wall responding to any such lies and nonsense. Do so in another thread if you have to.

[sirgonzo420]

Thanks for starting this thread.

[Horn]

Does the magical underwear come in different colors and sizes?

Or is it one size fits all?

[zap]

Horn, shame on you! Be nice will ya ?


Welcome to the asylum Janadele.

[Janadele]

I would respond with a question as to your underwear Horn, however as I am a lady I will refrain from doing so,

[DMac]

Do you believe Mitt Romney to be a 'good' mormon?

[sirgonzo420]

Do you believe Mitt Romney to be a 'good' mormon?

What about Harry Reid?

[gunDriller]

i'm here to be edumacated.

[Janadele]

From what I know of Mitt, I believe he is a faithful Latter-day Saint.

I understand Harry Reid regularly attends the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I cannot comment further as I know little of him personally.

[DMac]

From what I know of Mitt, I believe he is a faithful Latter-day Saint.

I understand Harry Reid regularly attends the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I cannot comment further as I know little of him personally.


You're on the internet in 2012 and you still believe a billionaire vulture capitalist turned politician is true to Jesus?

"Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?" These men are all evil, worshiping at the foot of their father, the devil.

I hope you are a genuine person on the other end there Janadele, if you created an account here there may be hope for you yet.

[beefsteak]

Don't feel picked upon. Many belief systems are regularly attacked, debated, discussed and displayed on GS.

Why you would locate the topic of mormonism to be the first thing you commented upon since your arrival at 9:58AM (some timezone) this very day, IS a definite curiousity to me.

Have you been directed here by some facet of the Romney political machine?

Is there something unique about Gold and Silver and Mormonism you'd like to homiletically expound upon?

Also, what is the latest "144,000 only" making it to heaven interpretation being floated currently?
Smacks of a depopulation agenda offshoot t'me.


beefsteak

[Janadele]

I like your clover, though a four leaf is rumoured to be luckier :D

[sirgonzo420]

Here is my post from the other mormon thread:


Sorry if I let any cats out of any bags... luckily I don't know any LDS secret handshakes.

You must admit that the connection between the Bible and "mainstream" Christianity and mormonism is quite slim and flimsy.

For example, why is Kolob not mentioned in the Bible? Is the Book of Mormon more important than the Bible? Why doesn't the Bible mention the Garden of Eden being in Missouri? Or Lucifer and Jesus being brothers? Why doesn't the Bible detail the nature of the "Priesthood"? Didn't Joseph Smith himself say that he was more important that Jesus Christ?

There is a definite element of deception/occultism (hiding true beliefs from new/prospective converts) in mormonism, would you agree?

Other than masquerading as a Biblical Christian denomination in an attempt to gain new converts, I don't have a problem with mormonism. I think mormons are often "good people" and their gnostic theology does not bother me like it would bother others here. I am neither christian, nor mormon, nor a jew, nor an atheist.

Feel free to respond.


And how do you reconcile the gnosticism of "becoming a God" with the serpent's promise in the Garden of Eden?

The Fall of Man was a good thing, right?

[Janadele]

The Lord speaks to His people at different times and places. The Bible is a compilation of the record of Adam and his descendants. The Book of Mormon is specifically a record of Lehi and his descendants who were instructed and guided by the Lord to leave Jerusalem 600 BC and travel to the Americas.

[Horn]

I would respond with a question as to your underwear Horn, however as I am a lady I will refrain from doing so,

I like the new style comfort fit boxers myself, They can double as shorts when you want to walk the dog in the morning.

[General of Darkness]

I have a feeling that this is not going to end well. :)

[MNeagle]

ah man, no popcorn smilies!

[Janadele]

One question at a time sirgonzo.:D

There is nothing hidden from new /prospective converts. However knowledge can usually not be gained all at one time. LDS Missionaries have an assignment to teach those who the Holy Spirit has prepared to receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is they who recognise the message when they hear it. The first step for investigators is to read the Book of Mormon and ask in prayer of it's truth.

[PatColo]

Is there something unique about Gold and Silver and Mormonism you'd like to homiletically expound upon?

Which raises a good question: Does LDS have any official position on the morality/immorality of USURY, esp as practiced by the Rothschild-Zionist Global Usury Empire (http://www.rense.com/general86/zelephant.htm), which since 1948 has made their new sovereign nuke-armed headquarters "Israel", aka Occupied Palestine?

http://fasttimesinpalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/four-panel-map.jpg

[General of Darkness]

ah man, no popcorn smilies!

Just use a gif instead

http://30bananasadaysucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/deer-eating-popcorn.gif



The Joker Eating Popcorn

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlubLtHY1rn1xxfo1_100.gif
Michael Jackson Eating Popcorn in "Thriller"

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlw4AnIX1rn1xxfo1_250.gif
Stephen Colbert Eating Popcorn

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjm4n4umw1rn1xxfo1_400.gif
Scarlett Johansson Eating Popcorn

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/167278.gif
Buffy Eating Popcorn

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y202/egregious_girl/gifs/movies%20and%20telly/buffy%20the%20vampire%20slayer/ek25c6.gif
http://cache.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Popcorn-04-Buffy.gif

[midnight rambler]

From what I know of Mitt, I believe he is a faithful Latter-day Saint.



How can Mittens be "a faithful Latter-day Saint" while sucking up to the banksters and the Zionists (as in being their errand boy) and being a gun-grabbing collectivist?? ??? All that seems to be incongruent with being "a faithful Latter-day Saint". And fwiw, the LDS folks I know think he's a reprobate.

[mick silver]

Janadele i would like to also hear your answer to pat question

[sirgonzo420]

One question at a time sirgonzo.:D

There is nothing hidden from new /prospective converts. However knowledge can usually not be gained all at one time. LDS Missionaries have an assignment to teach those who the Holy Spirit has prepared to receive the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is they who recognise the message when they hear it. The first step for investigators is to read the Book of Mormon and ask in prayer of it's truth.

The Holy Spirit has prepared me... lay the fullness on me!

:D

[sirgonzo420]

Also, the mormon cartoon video that I posted earlier is pretty sound based on my readings of mormon doctrine.

You claim that it misrepresents your religion. Care to refute the video and prove your claim?

[midnight rambler]

I'm confused - would the massacre of 120 white men, women, and children in 1857 at Mountain Meadows be considered pro or con LDS?? ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

[undgrd]

Oh boy! This thread reminds me of a phrase. Something having to do with engaging unarmed people.


http://9thcivic.com/gallery/albums/post/dude_eating_popcorn_hg_blk.gif

[Santa]

Notice the Masonic symbol above the Moronic angel?

3338

[StreetsOfGold]

Please do not post anti-Mormon literature to this thread, I have no intention of ... responding to any such lies and nonsense.

Talk about propaganda. If it's Anti-Mormon it's AUTOMATICALLY "lies" and "nonsense" ahhhh, I see. Talk about a SUBTLE (Gen. 3:1) insinuation that Mormons MUST be correct and what they believe is TRUE.


BTW: It's OK to post Anti-Christian (as opposed to Anti-Mormon) I appreciate the acknowledgment (by this mormon) of the CLEAR DIFFERENCE between the two.

The Bible says: 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I've taken Anti-Christian (not mormon) questions all my Adult Christian life (26 years now) but that's what Christains do... apparantly this mormon can't. Why might that be? Perhaps the the answer is as close as your newsmedia. Just look at any White house spokemen and look how they SHUN the REAL HARD QUESTIONS.. When you have something to HIDE, that's what you do.

[Santa]

Janadele, MR 12 in your avatar wouldn't stand for Mitt Romney 2012, would it? :)

[ArizonaDad]

I am a long-time lurker, occasional poster, and active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't get drawn into these silly, repetitive arguments. I have heard them all before, and I am still quite comfortable in my position. You won't change my mind, and I won't assume that I can change yours.

But there is a question implied here and elsewhere that I believe does need to be addressed. It is "How can Mitt Romney and Harry Reid BOTH be faithful members of the same church?" Many assume that it can't be true, because they are used to pastors and preachers telling them how to vote. The answer is that the LDS church really does mean the Statement of Political Neutrality posted on lds.org. You really can be a republican, democrat, conservative, or liberal, and still be a "good" Mormon. You can't preach politics or have a political argument in an LDS building. People (and not just the people in charge) will stop you. We really don't want partisan stuff happening in our buildings. And we really do have differing opinions.

[Janadele]

;) Of course Santa.

Janadele, MR 12 in your avatar wouldn't stand for Mitt Romney 2012, would it? :)

[General of Darkness]

;) Of course Santa.

Then you're part of the problem not any solution.

[midnight rambler]

Then you're part of the problem not any solution.

Mittens is just another Babylonian Luciferian Talmudist bootlicker/Joo World Order tool. Anyone who cannot see that is lost - I mean really, it's as plain as the nose on one's face.

[Santa]

This Mormon thing is just too easy... Lol

[Hillbilly]

Well shit, I had I hopes for this thread. My path has crossed with some really great People who happened to be Mormons. I never felt it polite to ask them any of the had questions about their religion. I was hoping this thread would deal with some of those hard facts and misconceptions but....that does not seem to be the case. I don't mean to be blunt but you started this thread so either Put up or Shut Up.

[Horn]

I'm confused - would the massacre of 120 white men, women, and children in 1857 at Mountain Meadows be considered pro or con LDS?? ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

Whatever, it's not G rated subject matter.

http://rpgathenaeum.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/rated-g.gif

[beefsteak]

Well, if PatColo gets an answer to his question, that still leaves 2 unaddressed questions, posed politely and sincerely enough in my original post to this Mormon Lady on this thread she started, and from which PatColo selected the one that was interesting to him--also about gold and silver.

I suspect said lady needs clarification from the Romney campaign directors to answer the anti-zionist slant PatColo was pursuing. Yours truly, however was seeking a more generic but some kind of "approved mormon speak" articulation of their faith's Gold and Silver acquisition/storage/usage of Gold and Silver.

Those of us who collect silver rounds have already spoken on this forum about the Silver Trading units with the beehive on them. As I recall, I was soundly re-educated about whether those were mormon issued or sanctioned in anyway, so I'm not asking about that.

I'm curious about their faith's position about the asset that has no counterparty risk. I know they lather individual Maroni sculptures atop their temple spires with gold plating. And we all know that the temple is a well-known storage facility for the faithful attendees.

But....
if their church has a statement of belief about whether to acquire gold and silver bullion, then does the church have facilities to store gold and silver on temple grounds for the "local" faithful? If so, then it would appear to me to be another candidate for if you don't hold it, you don't own it.

Perhaps the lady is not as conversant as she led off appearing to be. I can see how a zealous (obviously young) mormon would look at GSUS as a mission field, considering the various manifestations of vices and "colorful" speech forms used around here by many. BUT.......

perhaps, just perhaps, she'd weigh in ON TOPIC, about this Gold and Silver individual behavioral guidance and the storage matter, even if Mitt doesn't give permission to discuss the "anti-zionist" angle PatColo wants to engage in with her.

hmmmmmmm


beefsteak

[Janadele]

The message conveying the will and intent of Brigham Young not to interfere with the immigrants arrived too late.

The responsibility for the massacre lies with Paiute Indians and local leaders of settlers in the regions near Mountain Meadows, and with those acting under their direction.

Approximately 120 men women and children from Missouri and Arkansas arrived in Salt Lake City about the end of July 1857, where they were advised by Elder Charles C. Rich to circle around the northern edge of the Great Salt Lake on their way to California. The group started north, but then decided to double back and take the southern route. This caused them to again pass through Salt Lake City, and then Provo, Springville, and Payson. When the wagon train reached Fillmore, about 150 miles south of Salt Lake City, and through settlements to the South, there were reports that the emigrants boasted of participating in the violence and atrocities against LDS in both Missouri and Illinois, that they participated in the killing of Parley P. Pratt in Arkansas, poisoned springs, and threatened to destroy LDS settlements.

The feeling among residents was generally very tense. The early and mid 1850s was the time of the Utah War, when people expected the US Army to enter Utah and either kill the LDS or force them from their homes. It was a time of great anxiety, tension, and attendant rumours among the general populace. We all know of the violence and lawlessness of the American frontiers at this time. LDS members had suffered greatly from this unruly violence, and also from vicious and horrific persecution from those opposed to their religion. The isolation, (this was before the telegraph was available), incomplete news of the approaching US Army, and fear of non-Mormons, contributed to paranoia on the part of the Mountain Meadows community.

I have visited this area many times, and found it bitterly cold, inhospitable, and remote... even today, and can imagine the despair of these LDS settlers in those times, who after having endured so much to escape their persecutors now found they had followed them even there.

would the massacre of 120 white men, women, and children in 1857 at Mountain Meadows be considered pro or con LDS?

[messianicdruid]

The responsibility for the massacre lies with Paiute Indians and local leaders of settlers in the regions near Mountain Meadows, and with those acting under their direction.

Do you consider other accounts of the massacre, that attribute blame differently, to be "anti-mormon"?

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadowscontents.htm

[Janadele]

Yes, if the authors are Anti-Mormon then that is their agenda.

Whereas:

Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Ronald W. Walker, Richard E. Turley and Glen M. Leonard, is an attempt to present the true picture, and as Walker says: " we left no stone unturned". This was a personal project by the authors, and although LDS Church employees, and given full access to all relevant materials held by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they retained full editorial control and have drawn their own conclusions from the exhaustive body of historical material they assembled.

[old steel]

Facts are Mormons dressed up as Paiute Indians to cover their true identity and butchered innocent men, women and children on direct orders from Brigham Young.

Another incredibly creepy detail about the ambush and massacre, it occurred on September 11, 1957 exactly 144 years to the date of the 9/11 attacks in 2001.

Where have we seen that number before?

[Janadele]

Only an eyewitness or participant could have the slightest credibility in making such an outrageous statement.

[Santa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLGRqALg8Q4

[Janadele]

Santa, This is not an LDS video, it was uploaded by an atheist and produced by Anti-Mormons. There is no point in posting fabrication.

[joboo]

I just read a lovely story on a kitten tossed alive into concrete footing related to the LDS.

Buddy spoke out against the LDS, and gets to play chip half dead lime burned kitty from concrete.

Nice video as well. Prolly take a few weeks for images to burn out of my head.

[Janadele]

The media report you refer to was of an alleged disagreement within the FLDS... nothing to do with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).

[Santa]

Santa, This is not an LDS video, it was uploaded by an atheist and produced by Anti-Mormons. There is no point in posting fabrication.

Anti-Mormons? Hahahahaha. Is that like Anti-Semites?

[messianicdruid]

Yes, if the authors are Anti-Mormon then that is their agenda.

Whereas:

Massacre at Mountain Meadows by Ronald W. Walker, Richard E. Turley and Glen M. Leonard, is an attempt to present the true picture, and as Walker says: " we left no stone unturned". This was a personal project by the authors, and although LDS Church employees, and given full access to all relevant materials held by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they retained full editorial control and have drawn their own conclusions from the exhaustive body of historical material they assembled.

So, simply differing from the official account makes you anti-mormon? Might there be other relevant materials not held by the church? If someone draws their own conclusions based on an even more "exhaustive body of historical material", why would you reject it?

[sirgonzo420]

If a refutation of the mormon cartoon video has been posted already, I have missed it.

If not, I hope it is forthcoming.

[Janadele]

Pat Colo and Mike Silver:
Your complicated political question does not of itself relate to the Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However the following excerpt of a portion of LDS History may be of interest to you:

Orson Hyde an Apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wrote a letter of introduction to Rabbi Herschel of the Hebrew Community of London, England, which explains a special call given to him by the Prophet Joseph Smith with respect to the gathering of Israel. A portion of the letter states: “About nine years ago, a young man with whom I had a short acquaintance, and one, too, in whom dwelt much wisdom and knowledge, in whose bosom the Almighty had deposited many secrets, laid his hand upon my head and pronounced these remarkable words—

‘In due time thou shalt go to Jerusalem, the land of thy fathers, and be a watchman unto the house of Israel; and by thy hands shall the Most High do a great work, which shall prepare the way and greatly facilitate the gathering together of that people".

This is probably one of the first recorded statements in this dispensation relative to a special mission of dedication for the eventual gathering of Israel. The blessing was most likely administered upon Orson’s head by the Prophet Joseph in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1831 when Orson was confirmed a member of the Church and ordained an elder.

At the April 1840 general conference of the Church, Orson Hyde was called on a mission to the Holy Land, with Elder John E. Page as his companion. They were to meet with Jewish leaders and dedicate Palestine for the return of the Jews. Their letter of credentials as missionaries to Palestine was written in Nauvoo on April 6, 1840. To the world the very idea was imprudent—a tiny band of religionists on the western frontier of the United States announcing to the world that the time had come for the gathering of the Jews.

While preaching at a public meeting in Philadelphia, Orson mentioned that he was going on a mission to Jerusalem to dedicate the Holy Land for the return of the Jews. He also mentioned that Mormon missionaries travel without purse or scrip, and that he was looking for financial assistance for his mission. At the end of his sermon, a stranger gave him a purse of gold and asked but one favour in return—that when Orson delivered his dedicatory prayer in the Holy Land, he would mention the anonymous donor in that prayer. Over a year later, as Orson knelt on Jerusalem’s Mount of Olives, he prayed:

“Do Thou also look with favour upon all those through whose liberality I have been enabled to come to this land. Particularly do Thou bless the stranger in Philadelphia, whom I never saw, but who sent me gold, with a request that I should pray for him in Jerusalem. Now, O Lord, let blessings come upon him from an unexpected quarter, and let his basket be filled, and his storehouse abound with plenty.”

Later John F. Beck, the son of the anonymous donor, revealed that his late father had been the generous stranger, and that the whole Beck family had indeed been blessed. He said: “We settled in Spanish Fork [Utah] where we continued to live until father died at the age of ninety-three, having enjoyed good health until within three days of his death. I do not know of an apostate among any of father’s posterity. He always had plenty for his family and loaned breadstuffs to scores who were in want. He did not become rich, but always had money laid aside for a time of need.”

At Philadelphia, Elder John E. Page lost the spirit of the mission and Orson continued on to Jerusalem alone. During his travels Orson met many notable personalities, some of whom were amazed at and interested in his mission. He enjoyed his travels through Europe and while waiting for his visa in Munich, learned to write and speak German.

Tired and weary after several months’ travel of nearly 10,000 miles, Orson’s enthusiasm was revitalised as he finally arrived at the sacred city of Jerusalem. Here he carefully walked along a dark, narrow street, avoiding the heavily loaded camels that traveled toward him. In the early morning hour he passed through the ancient gate in the old decayed wall near the brook, Kidron. As Orson crossed over the small brook and climbed up the gentle slope of the hill, bright rays of sunshine encompassed the Mount of Olives. It was a magnificent sight as he gazed upon the surrounding countryside from the top of the mount.

There, alone, on Sunday, October 24, 1841, Orson wrote and offered the prayer dedicating Palestine for the return of the Jews and for the building of a Temple in the future. For the first time in 1,800 years, an Apostle stood again on the Mount of Olives. After his prayer Orson Hyde built two stone altars patterned after those of ancient Israel for memorials. The first memorial was on the Mount of Olives and the second on Mt. Moriah.

In 1960 Elder George Q. Morris spoke of “God’s promise that he would gather Jews to Jerusalem, and I think perhaps we may well now not continue saying the Jews are going to gather in Jerusalem. I think now we may well say they have gathered. … The Jews have returned to Palestine.”

Orson Hyde believed that the mission to Palestine was part of his divine destiny. This mission illustrated his great faith in Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God and his belief in the Jews’ eventual return to Palestine preceding the coming of the Messiah as it has been prophesied by both ancient and modern Prophets. There was no question in Orson’s mind that he had helped to prepare the way for the gathering of the members of the tribe of Judah and the final restoration of their homeland. He had traveled 20,000 miles to fulfill a mission call for his beloved Church, which was probably one of the longest and most hazardous missions undertaken in this dispensation.

[Janadele]

sirgonzo, It is an Anti-Mormon cartoon... when time permits I may expand on this comment.


If a refutation of the mormon cartoon video has been posted already, I have missed it.

If not, I hope it is forthcoming.

[Santa]

This young lady left the Mormon Church because she discovered Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Smart girl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1-F_ih1ePY

[Janadele]

Santa, please abide by the topic of this thread as outlined, and post your Anti-Mormon material to another thread.

[willie pete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLGRqALg8Q4

are mormons this ritualistic? is it true mormon belief says the garden of eden was in missouri?

[MNeagle]

How'd you happen to stumble upon this site?

[madfranks]

How'd you happen to stumble upon this site?

oh, & welcome!

Janadele - just FYI, you're going to get your beliefs challenged very thoroughly here. I wish you a warm welcome, but you've been warned...

[Skirnir_]

Santa, please abide by the topic of this thread as outlined, and post your Anti-Mormon material to another thread.

Santa - you are welcome to post it in my thread, but the Cult of the Flying Jackass is less absurd than Mormonism and therefore less entertaining to mock.

[old steel]

Only an eyewitness or participant could have the slightest credibility in making such an outrageous statement.

I could say the same thing about Joseph Smith and his so called visions, the magically disappearing golden plates etc etc etc

Practice what you preach not just when it suits you.

Facts are John D Lee was present and the one singled out to be the scapegoat and the only one to suffer the blood atonement sacrifice Brigham Young preached.

On March 23, 1877, Lee was executed by firing squad at Mountain Meadows on the site of the 1857 massacre. His last words included a reference to Young: "I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young. I do not care who hears it. It is my last word... I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Lee#cite_note-7)
On April 20, 1961, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints) posthumously reinstated Lee's membership in the church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Lee

[joboo]

Seriously though. Some dude named Joe Smith from Vermont has all the answers.

Sure he does...lol.

It's like living in an onion article.

[Santa]

Orson Hyde believed that the mission to Palestine was part of his divine destiny. This mission illustrated his great faith in Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God and his belief in the Jews’ eventual return to Palestine preceding the coming of the Messiah as it has been prophesied by both ancient and modern Prophets. There was no question in Orson’s mind that he had helped to prepare the way for the gathering of the members of the tribe of Judah and the final restoration of their homeland. He had traveled 20,000 miles to fulfill a mission call for his beloved Church, which was probably one of the longest and most hazardous missions undertaken in this dispensation.


The Mormon Church is a branch from the Cabalistic tree of Messianic Zionism, whose seed was planted by an Occult practicing Freemason named Joseph Smith.

And today we have Mitt Romney about to be installed(by the Zionist Banking Cabal, no less) into the office of POTUS.

[vacuum]

I think we need another person or two on the side of Mormonism for this thread to make any real progress.

[messianicdruid]

I think we need another person or two on the side of Mormonism for this thread to make any real progress.

Progress is not made by having sides, but in accepting truth.

[Santa]

I think I'd be more sympathetic with Mormonism if it weren't so big and oddly wealthy and connected. I smell money!

If it were actually just a little fringe religion on the edge of civilization, I wouldn't think twice about it, but suddenly it's showing political teeth. TV influence. Prime Time. Money!

Messianic Zionism!

[midnight rambler]

Another thing I'm confused about - is all the Freemasonry symbolism associated with the LDS Church a good thing or a bad thing?? ???

I've always been under the impression that the Freemasons are a Lucifer worshiping cult - so what's up with the abundance of Freemasonry symbols on all things Mormon??

[vacuum]

This young lady left the Mormon Church because she discovered Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Smart girl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1-F_ih1ePY

Wow, that was a sad story with a happy ending. It made me feel a little sick when she opened up the book and started reading prophesies after talking about the tension in her relationship caused by her fiance's doubts in the religion.

The fact that these irrelevant scriptures (irrelevant to people's lives) about New Jerusalem and where it will be placed, how big it will be, etc, comes between people who love each other is very sad. The problem with religion is that it tends to create these intellectual constructs (complicated doctrine) which then is developed, by other people, into artificial requirements on your life. Complicated doctrine in and of itself is not wrong. Complicated men need complicated doctrine, because they are more advanced.

The key approach that is needed is what nature does - the principle of least action, or of least energy. This principle means that if something doesn't affect you or isn't relevant to you at the current time, it doesn't matter what the answer is. Put the question aside and don't answer it.

While sleeping, the differences between Christians, Mormons, Atheists, etc, is non-existent. When working as well, differences are very little. We've already covered 65% of our lives, and not really a single bit of doctrine has been relevant to us. Now lets consider the higher-level functions we do, such as interacting with each other in daily life. Now we do need some doctrine, perhaps the golden rule for the majority of these interactions.

Now there are more advanced interactions, such as tithing, civil participation in government, maybe passing on an inheritance. There's also the issue of children and extended family dealings. These will require more advanced beliefs, and you must face them at that time. But before then they aren't needed.

A young couple like this is still quite low on the doctrine scale, so there is no need to face the hardest questions about one religion vs the other. The differentiation should occur gradually as the need arises.

The principle of least energy must be adhered to. The universe is infinitely complex, and it would require an infinite amount of time to know anything perfectly. So the arbitrary levels of complexity a church may choose to teach it's followers is really just that, arbitrary. They think they have the 'right doctrine' but another church may be light-years ahead of them. A small-town church full of ignorant people may be way behind them.

[vacuum]

Progress is not made by having sides, but in accepting truth.
By progress, I mean growth and an increase in understanding of everyone here. We can't grow by accepting truth because we can't recognize truth until we grow. The debate itself will cause the growth. You are right that it's not about any particular side. But it is about the interaction between the two sides. Just like you can't bulk-up your body without gym weights to give you the needed resistance.

That's why I made this post and the long post above this one. I know I will meet resistance, however I will grow from it.

[Skirnir_]

Growth, understanding, truth...I can almost smell the bullshit wafting from my monitor.

[beefsteak]

Well, it's hard to "grow in understanding" when the premise/opening post is purportedly to be a place for sincere questions.

I've asked 3 and I have yet to even be acknowledged, while those who come after me, and ask questions built upon my questions, at least get responded to.

If "more mormons" come forth, with their open Romney supportive agendae, are we to receive A) more mormon responses to serious questions re: gold and silver the mormon elder instructions to the laity and missionaries especially as to the "endorsed storage in the temple practices", or B) more ignoring of those actually asking on topic questions in a polite demeanor.

Perhaps the "Holy Spirit" hasn't gotten around to "highlighting my name" yet, in Janadele's GS'er queue....altho' truth be told, she's been really busy since 9:58AM this morning when she first joined this forum with her Romney Avatar and self-confessed afrontedness at the attacks on her faith.

I'm guessing B)....as in beefsteak

[vacuum]

Growth, understanding, truth...I can almost smell the bullshit wafting from my monitor.

Why do you post outside of the gold/silver subforum? What logical reason is there? It appears on the surface that it is nothing but a waste of time and brain-cycles, does it not?

[ImaCannin]

This young lady left the Mormon Church because she discovered Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Smart girl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1-F_ih1ePY

Janadele,
Have you done what this young lady in the video has done? Pray to the MOST HIGH and ask him to show you the truth in all matters? You might be amazed at what HE shows you. :o

[beefsteak]

Vacuum,
s. volunteered that answer 3 Sunday Chats ago, when he showed up in his Xizang drag costume.

He typed, and this is the best quotation as I can recall it....."I love to ridicule people just to get their reaction. It is fun to watch."

Hope this helps. A sociopath who admits his sock puppet/other user ID is still a sociopath.


beefsteak

[vacuum]

Vacuum,
s. volunteered that answer 3 Sunday Chats ago, when he showed up in his Xizang drag costume.

He typed, and this is the best quotation as I can recall it....."I love to ridicule people just to get their reaction. It is fun to watch."

Hope this helps. A sociopath spelled in any other user ID is still a sociopath.


beefsteak
I'll ignore anything spoken in chat since that's off the record.

[Janadele]

Thanks ;) I am wondering this myself. LOL on some forum I clicked on the link
How'd you happen to stumble upon this site?

oh, & welcome!

[Skirnir_]

Why do you post outside of the gold/silver subforum? What logical reason is there? It appears on the surface that it is nothing but a waste of time and brain-cycles, does it not?

Do I sense animosity?

[vacuum]

Do I sense animosity?
Not at all, I'm just wondering what the purpose of posting (more than one-liners) if it isn't growth and understanding.

[Skirnir_]

Not at all, I'm just wondering what the purpose of posting (more than one-liners) if it isn't growth and understanding.

Amusement.

[vacuum]

Amusement.

Isn't this form of amusement feeding your ego though? Are you not growing it by constantly exposing the flaws and inferiority of the discussions of all those around you?

The statement I made about the two sides clashing and causing growth is an esoteric process, not my opinion. Self introspection is a good thing to do, nothing wrong with examining yourself from the third person.

[Janadele]

That is fine madfranks, if they are indeed my beliefs.

What I object to are posters telling me incorrectly what my Church believes and teaches, and Anti-Mormons promoting their agenda of confusion, misrepresentations and lies designed to prohibit the reader from ever knowing what the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually are, whether they agree with them or not.

Some order is achieved in Forums by having Sections and Topics... otherwise total chaos ensues. I therefore once again ask that Anti-Mormon material and literature not be posted in this thread.


Janadele - just FYI, you're going to get your beliefs challenged very thoroughly here. I wish you a warm welcome, but you've been warned...

[Skirnir_]

Isn't this form of amusement feeding your ego though? Are you not growing it by constantly exposing the flaws and inferiority of the discussions of all those around you?

Not really; calling bullshit when I see it is not exactly a transformative experience.

[MNeagle]

Some order is achieved in Forums by having Sections and Topics... otherwise total chaos ensues. I therefore once again ask that Anti-Mormon material and literature not be posted in this thread.

& this thread belongs in the Religion section

[zap]

Janedele, I am glad you found our forum, ( a gold and silver forum ) and It is good you have your own beliefs, but you are not going to change 99 % of the folks here, you just keep to your own beliefs ......and let the others find their own path, gold/ silver/ conspiratorial theories .

[vacuum]

Not really; calling bullshit when I see it is not exactly a transformative experience.
Most people are already dominated by their ego, so it's growth is not necessarily transformative. What is transformative is self observation.

[sirgonzo420]

That is fine madfranks, if they are indeed my beliefs.

What I object to are posters telling me incorrectly what my Church believes and teaches, and Anti-Mormons promoting their agenda of confusion, misrepresentations and lies designed to prohibit the reader from ever knowing what the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually are, whether they agree with them or not.

Some order is achieved in Forums by having Sections and Topics... otherwise total chaos ensues. I therefore once again ask that Anti-Mormon material and literature not be posted in this thread.


Then why don't you tell us the TRUTH of mormonism, so that your Church is no longer misrepresented, and so we can have a better understanding?

[Santa]

Janedele, I am glad you found our forum, ( a gold and silver forum ) and It is good you have your own beliefs, but you are not going to change 99 % of the folks here, you just keep to your own beliefs ......and let the others find their own path, gold/ silver/ conspiratorial theories .

Mmmm, a nice juicy new conspiratorial theory to savor.... Mormonic Romneyism. Lol

[Janadele]

ImaCannin, I have not watched nor heard the video. My time is too precious to be bothered with Anti-Mormon propaganda.

I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have always been an active Christian, having been raised an Anglican. I do not usually open my door to strangers, but when this knock came I had an overwhelming desire to do so. Two young men stood there, and I was anxious to welcome them and listen to their message. I had never before that even heard of Latter-day Saints, the LDS Church or the Book of Mormon.

On reading the Book of Mormon, and praying in the name of Jesus Christ to ask if it were true, a wave of knowledge and understanding opened to me and engulfed my being. There was and is no denying the truthfullness of the message delivered to me. Sent to me from Jesus Christ.


Janadele,
Have you done what this young lady in the video has done? Pray to the MOST HIGH and ask him to show you the truth in all matters? You might be amazed at what HE shows you. :o

[Janadele]

I am unaware there is one. This is the section where the word "Mormon" was in the two threads I saw and responded to .


& this thread belongs in the Religion section

[Santa]

Mormon Population Worldwide
Milestones of Total Church Membership
2010 - 14.1 Million2
2009 - 13.8 Million
2008 - 13.5 Million
2007 - 13 Million
2004 - 12 Million
2000 - 11 Million
1997 - 10 Million
1994 - 9 Million
1991 - 8 Million
1989 - 7 Million
1986 - 6 Million
1982 - 5 Million
1978 - 4 Million
1971 - 3 Million3
1963 - 2 Million3
1947 - 1 Million3
1920 - 1/2 Million4
1890s - 1/4 Million
1880 - 160,000
1877 - 115,0005
1870 - 110,000
1860 - 80,000
1850 - 60,000
1840 - 30,000
1830s - 15,0005
1830 - 6 Members

Notes

[zap]

I know I should just shut up and I am going to in a minute..... My personal belief is (take it all with a grain of salt) that most folks that I know are what I call bible thumpers, including my own grandparents, in my opinion are Weak Minded (sorry) They believe everything that was written and take it word by word, King"S James minions wrote the new testament, really you believe it all. I dont', so I guess I am going to hell for sure.

Organized religion= a good way to control the masses.

[beefsteak]

THAT response from you makes no sense. That's before he admitted he was Skirnir...before the "_" was added by forum mods.

[Santa]

Janadele, I've got nothing against you personally. You seem like a nice person.

However, FreeMasonic Mormon Politics is a whole nother matter altogether.

[beefsteak]

I know I should just shut up and I am going to in a minute..... My personal belief is (take it all with a grain of salt) that most folks that I know are what I call bible thumpers, including my own grandparents who are religious, in my opinion are Weak Minded (sorry) They believe everything that was written and take it word by word, King"S James minions wrote the new testament, really you believe it all. I dont', so I guess I am going to hell for sure.

Organized religion= a good way to control the masses.

Can't speak to all your personal conclusions, but I would fix one part of your response, zap....

organized religion = a good way to FLEECE the masses. That work for ya?

Yours truly would rather acknowledge and nurture my endowed spiritual dimension than pursue organized religion, frankly. The hell thing...too many folks trying to raise hell here in this earth school, frankly.

Separation from love is hell, and that's no joking matter, regardless of whether here or in the hereafter! You need a kind word or a shoulder pat, just give a shout. I can rustle up one or th'uther, long as we're on the same side of the "great Divide."


beefsteak

[PatColo]

Another thing I'm confused about - is all the Freemasonry symbolism associated with the LDS Church a good thing or a bad thing?? ???

Today's Makow guest writer:
How All Masonic Movements Work (http://www.henrymakow.com/how_all_masonic_movements_work.html)

I also noticed this linked at the "news" sidebar,

Romney’s Masonic Mormonism: Lesser of Two Evils? http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2012/08/romneys-masonic-mormonism-lesser-of-two.html




I've always been under the impression that the Freemasons are a Lucifer worshiping cult - so what's up with the abundance of Freemasonry symbols on all things Mormon??

Judaism & Masonry seem to have that same organizational structure- with I-Love-Luci's at the top levels, then stratified downward pyramid style, "ignorance" levels (re what the top is really all about) increasing as it descends & broadens out.

"The rank & file are betrayed. Humanity is now structured this way. "

^snip from the article @ Makows site above.

[Janadele]

There is so much I could post on Masonic matters that it is difficult to know where to start, or where and when to finish. There is probably more misinformation about the relationship of the Temple ceremony of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Masonry than any other topic. I will endeavour to submit a series of basic posts on the most important aspects.

[beefsteak]

Will that be before or after you address the 3 questions I've posed..... LOL


beefsteak

[Horn]

INTERMISSION -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZSD8-KrksU

[JohnQPublic]

Hi Janadele, and welcome. I think you have already found out that we have a bunch of skeptical minds occupying this forum. Don't be offended too quickly.

I think eventually, I will move this to the religion section. A lot of members want any thread or post that mentions God to be move to the Religio0n section, but I do not buy that. God is part of reality, and in fact He supersedes our perception of reality. But this topic is strictly a religious topic, and should be moved to the Religion section, if not just to have it available for future reference. As you will find if you stick around for long, topics in this section fall out of sight very fast, and get buried 10,20,30 pages down in no time if the discussion is not continued.

Tell me, are you going to your bishop and outside help to answer these questions, or are they all from your knowledge and experience?

[midnight rambler]

There is so much I could post on Masonic matters that it is difficult to know where to start, or where and when to finish. There is probably more misinformation about the relationship of the Temple ceremony of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Masonry than any other topic. I will endeavour to submit a series of basic posts on the most important aspects.

Wouldn't you say that the matter of Masonic symbols associated with the LDS Church is pretty dang important?? There's Masonic symbols on your magic underwear for crying out loud. You come into direct contact with Masonic symbols on a daily basis, it's inescapable. What have you to say about that??

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrNpEe4ZgsA

[Janadele]

Thank you John. No, I am not going to my Bishop to answer these questions ( who by the way, is my son ) or anyone else.


Hi Janadele, and welcome. I think you have already found out that we have a bunch of skeptical minds occupying this forum. Don't be offended too quickly.

I think eventually, I will move this to the religion section. A lot of members want any thread or post that mentions God to be move to the Religio0n section, but I do not buy that. God is part of reality, and in fact He supersedes our perception of reality. But this topic is strictly a religious topic, and should be moved to the Religion section, if not just to have it available for future reference. As you will find if you stick around for long, topics in this section fall out of sight very fast, and get buried 10,20,30 pages down in no time if the discussion is not continued.

Tell me, are you going to your bishop and outside help to answer these questions, or are they all from your knowledge and experience?

[Janadele]

On January 19, 1841, well before his initiation into Masonry in 1842, Joseph Smith recorded a revelation that speaks clearly of the need for a Temple in Nauvoo and of some of the ordinances to be carried out there (see D&C 124:27-42).

The origins of the LDS Temple ceremonies are wholly divine. Joseph Smith's understanding of the Priesthood Temple Endowment began long before his initiation into Masonry.

No Mason—or anyone else—acquainted with the rituals of the Order can honestly claim there is the slightest resemblance of those ordinances or procedures [of the LDS endowment ceremony] to anything presented in a Symbolic Lodge of Free Masonry... which is not a religion, but a fraternal order. (Mervin B. Hogan, "The Historicity of the Alleged Masonic Influence on Mormonism," pp. 17, 30-31 [Jan. 15, 1984]).

The critics of the LDS Church and the critics of Freemasonry are oftentimes one and the same group of people.

[muffin]

I guess the library is open late. Do they have starbucks?

[Janadele]

I see you are feeling neglected beefsteak ;) Patience...

Were your questions related to the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Or are they from some dubious Anti-Mormon site?


Will that be before or after you address the 3 questions I've posed..... LOL

beefsteak

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXNeMYwEaIQ&feature=player_embedded

http://www.grevillelodge.org.uk/images/10.masonic%20apron.jpg

[Janadele]

I do not know where you are muffin, but it is only 4.30pm in the afternoon here :)


I guess the library is open late. Do they have starbucks?

[muffin]

I see you are feeling neglected beefsteak ;) Patience...

Were your questions related to the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Or are they from some dubious Anti-Mormon site?


Wouldn't you more properly ad-hominem a "dubious Anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" site? Is there some significant difference between Mormon's and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that we need to be aware of? And do you have Starbucks or not?

[Janadele]

Horn, the LDS Church have made available innumerable videos which present the facts as they are. No need to bog down in Anti-Mormon nonsense. Try here: http://www.lds.org/pages/mormon-messages?lang=eng

[JohnQPublic]

Horn, the LDS Church have made available innumerable videos which present the facts as they are. No need to bog down in Anti-Mormon nonsense. Try here: http://www.lds.org/pages/mormon-messages?lang=eng

Is there a video that shows an actual Mormon temple ceremony?

[muffin]

I do not know where you are muffin, but it is only 4.30pm in the afternoon here :)

With that in mind, you have been pounding furiously for over 13 hours on this. I hope you get overtime. And Starbucks. I bet they deliver that....Oh wait. You can't have that. Nevermind. No coffee for you. I bet you are getting tired.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

Greetings and welcome to the forum, hopefully you have what it takes to grow here; tell your friends.

For my question, I am wondering how you mentally reconcile supporting politicians who act wildly antithetical to the stated goals of your religion. Thanks for your time.

[Mouse]

The critics of the LDS Church and the critics of Freemasonry are oftentimes one and the same group of people.

Those who seek the Truth.

[Horn]

3347

[Janadele]

I am at home, so no Starbucks.

Mormon is a nick name given over the years, mainly in America, for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it has been accepted by the LDS Church for the benefit of those who more readily recognise the term.

Anti-Mormons also include the break away groups under this nick name, and do not use the correct name of the LDS Church. They are a satanic group obsessed with hatred of all things "Mormon", it is their life's purpose to attempt to destroy the Lord's Church. They try to do so by many means... even in subtle ways which deceive many into thinking that some of their web-sites and the videos and literature they produce are authentic.
Wouldn't you more properly ad-hominem a "dubious Anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" site? Is there some significant difference between Mormon's and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that we need to be aware of? And do you have Starbucks or not?

[Mouse]

Ceremonial Garments - from the source:

http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_715839595_10557_21152_-1_Y_image_0
Garments and ceremonial clothing relate to covenants made in the temple. Because of their sacred nature, membership verification is required to view these items. Other white clothing can be viewed and purchased without membership verification. Learn more about temples on lds.org » (https://lds.org/church/temples)

SECRET SOCIETY

"Romney, we demand you drop your pants, Sir!"

Let's see who creams his coffee, whips up his chocolate, and shakes his Martini's. I bet the Emperor is not wearing any "Garments"

[Janadele]

Mmm... Well two of my scheduled walks on the beach have been unfortunately foregone, but there are other matters I have been attending to during this time period.

Overtime from whom ? :D


With that in mind, you have been pounding furiously for over 13 hours on this. I hope you get overtime. And Starbucks. I bet they deliver that....Oh wait. You can't have that. Nevermind. No coffee for you. I bet you are getting tired.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

Greetings and welcome to the forum, hopefully you have what it takes to grow here; tell your friends. Thank you for inviting us to ask you a question each about Mormonism.

For my question, I am wondering how you mentally reconcile supporting politicians who act wildly antithetical to the stated goals of your religion. Thanks for your time.

[old steel]

The screen is all wavy and shit i think i did a little too much LDS today.

[Skirnir_]

Whether a bull gets into the onion patch and spawns a rather foetid pie, or if he finds carrots and spawns something with a hue of orange, that does not concern me, for it is bullshit either way.

[joboo]

So it looks like God kinda messed up a lil bit.

Joe'e earthly vessel started rotting out:

"During the winter of 1812 (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/1812/) - 1813 (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/1813/) Smith's leg became seriously infected. Some doctors advised amputation (http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Amputation/), but Smith's family refused. Smith later recovered, though he used crutches for several years and was for the rest of his life bothered with a limp."

http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Joseph_Smith/

Is the rotting out of Joesus symbolic? Maybe he was just a prototype.

http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/art/pjoseph-smith.jpg

[Skirnir_]

http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/art/pjoseph-smith.jpg

What in the name of Kolob did he do to his hair?

[PatColo]

Santa, This is not an LDS video, it was uploaded by an atheist and produced by Anti-Mormons. There is no point in posting fabrication.

Anti-Mormons? Hahahahaha. Is that like Anti-Semites?

This thread is at reply #120 as I write, and at this point the likeness between organized-Jewry's deeply entrenched pattern of seeking to silence/neutralize critics of Jewry's specific-behaviors/religious-doctrines, with ad-hom attacks defaming the messengers as "anti-Semitic" (while conspicuously NOT addressing specific, valid criticisms brought by said messengers),

and Janadele's pattern of response to criticism in this thread,



Please do not post anti-Mormon literature to this thread, I have no intention of bashing my head against a brick wall responding to any such lies and nonsense. #1 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562416&viewfull=1#post562416)

Yes, if the authors are Anti-Mormon then that is their agenda.#40 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562542&viewfull=1#post562542)

Santa, This is not an LDS video, it was uploaded by an atheist and produced by Anti-Mormons. There is no point in posting fabrication.#44 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562549&viewfull=1#post562549)

sirgonzo, It is an Anti-Mormon cartoon... when time permits I may expand on this comment.#51 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562567&viewfull=1#post562567)

Santa, please abide by the topic of this thread as outlined, and post your Anti-Mormon material to another thread. #53 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562570&viewfull=1#post562570)

What I object to are posters telling me incorrectly what my Church believes and teaches, and Anti-Mormons promoting their agenda of confusion, misrepresentations and lies designed to prohibit the reader from ever knowing what the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually are, whether they agree with them or not.#79 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562628&viewfull=1#post562628)

ImaCannin, I have not watched nor heard the video. My time is too precious to be bothered with Anti-Mormon propaganda.#86 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562640&viewfull=1#post562640)

The critics of the LDS Church and the critics of Freemasonry are oftentimes one and the same group of people.#101 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562676&viewfull=1#post562676)

Were your questions related to the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Or are they from some dubious Anti-Mormon site?#103 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562681&viewfull=1#post562681)

No need to bog down in Anti-Mormon nonsense.#107 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562687&viewfull=1#post562687)

Anti-Mormons also include the break away groups under this nick name, and do not use the correct name of the LDS Church. They are a satanic group obsessed with hatred of all things "Mormon", it is their life's purpose to attempt to destroy the Lord's Church. They try to do so by many means... even in subtle ways which deceive many into thinking that some of their web-sites and the videos and literature they produce are authentic.#113 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562695&viewfull=1#post562695)




... well, the LIKENESS is unmistakable! :o:-X Also see: Thread: Why do Mormons Love Israel? (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62669-Why-do-Mormons-Love-Israel)

There's another striking parallel with Organized Jewry's dogma of portraying themselves as perennial victims of "irrational haters" who, being (fraudulently) labeled "irrational haters" (or, "anti-Mormons" ;)), thus do not dignify any response.

That last snip, #113 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562695&viewfull=1#post562695), is the richest of course, and it oozes of the long pattern of Psychological Projections by Organized Jewry (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/) (a gambit I've long refered to as,the Chutzpah Maneuver (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?52269-quot-Among-The-Truthers-quot-Straus-the-Protocols-and-the-Chutzpah-Maneuver)).

Janadele, please understand, one of the uniting feelings among the membership of this messageboard is our universal detest of "Organized Jewry's" (which I personally equate with Rothschild Zionism (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?23047-The-Zionist-Elephant-In-The-Room)) deeply entrenched pattern of behavior, in seeking to dismiss/silence/evade/neutralize critics of Jewry's specific-behaviors & (racist, supremacist, separatist (http://rense.com/general79/talmud.htm)) religious-doctrines, with ad-hom attacks defaming the messengers as "anti-Semitic" (or haters, bigots, satanists, nazis, yada yada) -- while conspicuously NOT addressing specific, valid criticisms brought by said messengers, as well as the long pattern of Psychological Projections by Organized Jewry (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/) (a gambit which is almost always reflected in their "labels" vilifying the messengers of criticism of Jewry's specific-behaviors/religious-doctrines).

So please understand, attempting to evade/dismiss the questions critical of LDS raised here in that ^ manner, will be ill-received here. Labeling critical questions of LDS as "anti-Mormon" and moving on, is not good enough of a response here.

You must address the specific criticism(s) raised, head-on perhaps with supporting links from LDS so skeptical readers can read your claims at the source. IE: "Claim X is inaccurate because... [Y, Z, with source links]"

[PatColo]

Well shit, I had I hopes for this thread. My path has crossed with some really great People who happened to be Mormons. I never felt it polite to ask them any of the had questions about their religion. I was hoping this thread would deal with some of those hard facts and misconceptions but.... [...]

me too. I want Janadele to stay, she's sincere and good hearted, like most rank/file Mormons, and all parties can come away from a productive dialog, smarter & better.

OK, Janadele disclosed that her son is an LDS Bishop, so she's perhaps a few notches higher in LDS than "rank & file". And I've appealed to her in #121 above, to please refrain from the ad-homs (and auguably, "projections (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/)") in response to questions raised which take LDS to task-- which will obviously be the norm here given LDS' "close alignment" with Zionism & Masonry, and our general feelings towards these secret societies.

[Janadele]

What you are failing to understand Pat is that material from Anti-Mormon sites is not representative of actual LDS Doctrine, and teachings. This thread is not about Anti-Mormon propaganda and I am not interested in dissecting their false claims and accusations. My task here is to inform those who want to know actual LDS teachings, doctrines and beliefs. With a detour at the moment to address a few masonic issues which posters have introduced ;)

[Skirnir_]

(redacted on acc't of length)

Shame on you, PatCalo, for not abiding by the imperious, titular demand that this be a 'pro thread'.

[Mouse]

What you are failing to understand Pat is that material from Anti-Mormon sites is not representative of actual LDS Doctrine, and teachings. This thread is not about Anti-Mormon propaganda and I am not interested in dissecting their false claims and accusations. My task here is to inform those who want to know actual LDS teachings, doctrines and beliefs. With a detour at the moment to address a few masonic issues which posters have introduced ;)

You are the Jews that are not Jews, but of your father.

I experienced your fine religion as a young child. So you may dismiss my quotes as market-driven and non-independent. Your congregation had church services that consisted of Profit and Loss of the Business. Politics and rumor. Sing a Psalm. Say some stuff about Jesus. Talk about tithing. Sing a Psalm. Who is next to be baptised and how are our efforts going in the community. Sing a Psalm and then the businessmen get to work on money matters.

My stepfather, who physically abused my mother and me, and sexually abused my sister, wore his Garments only to service on Sunday. They were just basically white linen or silken bedclothes. They meant nothing unless you were involved in the ritual of baptism.....He drank his coffee, ate his chocolate and drank his booze as he pleased except to be good on Sunday.

Where the Church had a fancy swimming pool thing setup, and there they would fill the waters, and those with holy Garments could go and "baptise" a soul into this fine tradition. I was never invited to these things as a young child.

I only remember from my youngest years, and I was only involved for about 5 years in this. It was all about business, governance, money, control (rumor mill), and then for fun they sang a couple songs. Then it was time for more business.

I apologize for sniping you earlier. This is what it was for me. 1975 southern Colorado. The worst was my step-dad, who was the Mormon that forced all of us to go and deal with this. He was what I would call a "not very nice person".

Business is booming, I am sure. As the Mormon's become one with the Jews that are not Jews and join the great Synagogue in the Sky. I hope you get your own planet after you defeat GOD

[Janadele]

I am sorry for your heartaches Mouse, evil perpetrators will have their judgement and remorse in the eternities. The Church cannot be blamed for those who pretend to live it's teachings, but do not.

[Janadele]

My late husband was a Mason, and his ancestors before him way back to early Scottish times. They were also strict Presbyterian clergy and lay preachers.

The first reference found to Freemasonry is in 975 in York, England. But Masonry as we know it today really takes root in the Enlightenment of the early Eighteenth Century, with utopian visions of universal brotherhood and the medieval stone Masons guilds of the Middle Ages. Religious, but not a religion, accepting most religious traditions within it, the Masonic Lodge taught and practiced strengthening relationships with fellow mankind. Whereas the LDS Temple rituals teach of our relationship to Deity.

Kirtland, Ohio, LDS Temple, started construction in 1833, dedicated March 27,1836... six years before Joseph Smith became a Mason. Latter-day Saints also had plans for a number of Temples in Missouri in the 1830s, two of which were started before the LDS fled to the Nauvoo area in 1839.

Temple endowment did not spring forth in Nauvoo fully functioning. The Temple endowment was introduced over a period of time. Two essentials of the LDS Temple endowment were practiced at Kirtland: washings and anointing. This and the more complete LDS Temple ceremony of baptism, endowment, sealing in marriagr... including symbolic remembrances of Christ's sacrament, bear striking resemblances to the format of salvation ordinances described in the Gospel of Philip ,which was discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt in recent decades.

Freemasonry does not do washings and anointings or anything even remotely like them. But some Masonic ceremonies are claimed to come from the Temple of Solomon.


On January 19, 1841, well before his initiation into Masonry in 1842, Joseph Smith recorded a revelation that speaks clearly of the need for a Temple in Nauvoo and of some of the ordinances to be carried out there (see D&C 124:27-42).

The origins of the LDS Temple ceremonies are wholly divine. Joseph Smith's understanding of the Priesthood Temple Endowment began long before his initiation into Masonry.

No Mason—or anyone else—acquainted with the rituals of the Order can honestly claim there is the slightest resemblance of those ordinances or procedures [of the LDS endowment ceremony] to anything presented in a Symbolic Lodge of Free Masonry... which is not a religion, but a fraternal order. (Mervin B. Hogan, "The Historicity of the Alleged Masonic Influence on Mormonism," pp. 17, 30-31 [Jan. 15, 1984]).

The critics of the LDS Church and the critics of Freemasonry are oftentimes one and the same group of people.

[PatColo]

What you are failing to understand Pat is that material from Anti-Mormon sites is not representative of actual LDS Doctrine, and teachings. This thread is not about Anti-Mormon propaganda and I am not interested in dissecting their false claims and accusations. My task here is to inform those who want to know actual LDS teachings, doctrines and beliefs. With a detour at the moment to address a few masonic issues which posters have introduced ;)

Okay. Behold:
Thread: LDS/Mormon Church. Critical Questions/Issues Thread. R Rated. (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62669-Why-do-Mormons-Love-Israel&p=562725&viewfull=1#post562725)

[Janadele]

“Oh Lord my God,” cried Joseph Smith as he was assassinated at Liberty Jail in Carthage, Illinois on June 27, 1844. These words are the beginning of the Masonic Distress Call which continues, “Is there no help for the widow’s son?” The first Prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spoke the first four words while shots were fired by a mob of about 125 men as he was climbing out of the second-story window of the jail. The Prophet was apparently trying to spare the lives of two Apostles, John Taylor (severely wounded) and Willard Richards, who were with him in prison. His Brother Hyrum was killed moments before.

Some feel Joseph Smith was appealing to Masons in the mob for help. More likely he was addressing God whom he would meet at any moment, since he had predicted his death several times in past days. He also certainly knew any friendly persons in the mob would not be helpful.

The murder was not a Masonic plot. It was plotted in public meetings in Warsaw, Illinois.

[chad]

this "person" is a troll account dispatched by the romney campaign to post pro-mormon stuff all over the board prior to the election. i am 100% confident the account will not be active post november 6, 2012.

[Santa]

me too. I want Janadele to stay, she's sincere and good hearted, like most rank/file Mormons, and all parties can come away from a productive dialog, smarter & better.

OK, Janadele disclosed that her son is an LDS Bishop, so she's perhaps a few notches higher in LDS than "rank & file". And I've appealed to her in #121 above, to please refrain from the ad-homs (and auguably, "projections (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/)") in response to questions raised which take LDS to task-- which will obviously be the norm here given LDS' "close alignment" with Zionism & Masonry, and our general feelings towards these secret societies.

I agree.

I mean really, who doesn't love the wholesome goodness of LDS cheese. :)

[beefsteak]

I see you are feeling neglected beefsteak ;) Patience...

Were your questions related to the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Or are they from some dubious Anti-Mormon site?

I am not aware of ever having visited an anti-mormon site as you call them. In point of fact, as a matter of course on this forum, if I see the word mormon or romney or ron paul of similar ilk, it is my custom to skip over it as time-wasters.

I was curious about your faith as an adult about 50 years ago, and did take the public issued opportunity to visit a brand new mormon temple PRIOR to its dedication. I think I read one book umpty decades ago, that was a type of comparative religions format, but I don't remember anything about the mormons who were one of the religions expounded upon within its covers.

I was astonished at the cordoba covered hymnal used in one of the upstairs "sanctuaries" I guess I would call it. It contained "familiar to me hymns" a lot with different words than I remember as a child, but that wasn't a big deal. I also was quite amused at all the little rooms I saw for changing I guess. I went over and opened a few of them, curious as to whether they were laid out like a confessional of the catholic religion. They weren't.

That edifice was and still is humongous, but the roped off areas which we were forbidden to enter or view was the majority of the building, which only added questions, and not terribly illuminating facts.

But the biggest shocker was the HUGE sunken round pool on one of the lower levels I would think, since the volume of water and the weight of the sculptures it contained had to be massively heavy. I think it was used for some ritual, maybe baptism, altho' I'm not sure that use is accurate, There was a little sign posted on a protective permanent railing above it, which seemed to me was indicative of it being something that was a publicly viewed ritual site due to the massive size of said pool and "balcony surround" arrangement. Many of the prior public visitors had responded to its massive girth as if it were a huge wishing well, as various coins littered the bottom. I thought to myself, perhaps modern churches could do an adaptation on this theme and remove the "offering plate" as part of their meeting ritual since it appears "wishing then throwing money into a pool or fountain" seem to have some cache attached.

It which was full of enormous verdigris colored, life-sized cattle sculptures all standing up and individually embedded into it already. As I recall they seemed to be all facing inwards toward the pool center. It creeped me out. Those enormous, multiple sculptures were totally submerged since the pool was full of sparkling water, and no I didn't count them.

According to the newspaper, I was among thousands of non-mormon curious that pre-dedication week, and the lines were quite long just to slip on the booties and get a chance to walk inside the elaborate, cold, and mysterious marble edifice. The silence in there was deafening...TOTALLY unlike any other historic cathedrals I've been in in my lifetime. It didn't inspire awe, it left the impression of being totally void and definitely unfriendly, even with all the suited males as smiling "path guides" and well-mannered highschool aged youth in attendance, staged in various perimeter stations, all dressed in their Sunday best. Adults seemed more like guards than guides, frankly.

So, no, as I've said 4 times now, my questions are sincere wonderings.

However, I'll say this...the thing that made me even open your posts, which was 1 thru 5 by the time I spotted your decendency upon the GS scene, was one of your brief, 1 liner responses which was totally captured on the "Activity Stream" yesterday morning. You you chided someone for their filthy mouth in a response to you. That made me curious about you personally.

Your assumptive demand that others change in your presence in order to accomodate you struck me as arrogant, and again, confessing to curiousity, I opened the thread to see if you were a Romney plant. I have avatars blocked, so I didn't know you even had one with the number 12 in it somewhere until someone mentioned it, so I was initially curious as to whether you were an old fashioned, soap your mouth wielding grandmother throwback to an earlier era, or just what.

So, no, I'm not big on being noticed per se', but I am big on being treated with some comparative equality since I wasn't speaking with a filthy mouth and was being respectfully curious as you stated you were soliciting, and I "got in early" on your solicited questions gig. By the end of my day last night, it was quite obvious I'd been dispatched to the "dunce corner" and it irritated me.

As I retired to a good night's slumber last night, I found myself asking why I even cared what you or any other mormon thinks, let alone about gold or silver and the mysterious cavernous "off limits" storage confines of the actual edifice I once visited. As a result, I decided I would look this one last time, to see if you continued in your rude behavior. Now you've responded, but you are still rude and added a laughing AT ME emoticon to your first and only targeted response to me. Go figure.

Now that I have finished responding to you totally, I'm dropping my totally appropriate to this forum 2 questions about silver and gold and mormon thought/teachings, plus the one about how this 144K saved thing works and my now associating it with at Ted Turner type de-population scenario curiousity.

I'm placing you on ignore immediately upon hitting submit here.. You have nothing to contribute to matters that concern me and my family it now appears, especially in this post Fukushima 3/11 world where all our demises have been excelerated 1000-fold.

I personally require of myself to allocate my time to matters of interest to me, instead of just curiousity about the latest "irritating mormon missionary door-knocker." God honoring survival of the most, not the fewest is of deep concern to me.

I want my time back which I wasted upon being curious about you, as well as responding to you this morning. My door is now shut to you and my negative impressions of your belief systems evangelistic style are totally re-enforced.

Peace and goodbye. Don't bother to respond. I will no longer engage in dialogue with you. It is what it is--through and done, as in "mormon fatigued."


beefsteak

[Tumbleweed]

I need to edit this since I thought I hit the quote button on a post of JQP. He had asked Janadele if there was an actual video of a Temple ceremony.



John~ Janadele may not be aware of the videos at this link of some actual temple ceremonies. They were secretly done by a former member of the church.

http://www.youtube.com/user/newnamenoah?feature=results_main

Janadele could you take a look at these videos and confirm or deny their authenticity?

[Blink]

I've just wasted Sat. morning coffee on this thread that has shown/enlightened/taught me jack sh*t about anything (except a history story on a massacre)... I should know better by now that anyone posting about "their" religion is well............

[Santa]

I've just wasted Sat. morning coffee on this thread that has shown/enlightened/taught me jack sh*t about anything (except a history story on a massacre)... I should know better by now that anyone posting about "their" religion is well............


True, but this thread also represents today's current political intrigue.

[Santa]

I need to edit this since I thought I hit the quote button on a post of JQP. He had asked Janadele if there was an actual video of a Temple ceremony.



John~ Janadele may not be aware of the videos at this link of some actual temple ceremonies. They were secretly done by a former member of the church.

http://www.youtube.com/user/newnamenoah?feature=results_main

Janadele could you take a look at these videos and confirm or deny their authenticity?


Those clips appear to confirm the video of the pretty bride I posted yesterday that seemed to upset Janadele so much.

[ImaCannin]

3351 troll?

[JDRock]

I'm confused - would the massacre of 120 white men, women, and children in 1857 at Mountain Meadows be considered pro or con LDS?? ???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
dont forget the massacre of wyoming folks at farson wyo (which the church sued to have the signs and memorial removed. if this is going to be another religious propaganda thread in which you will not ADMIT=be honest as to your churches complicity, close it. How many people would jesus kill? untill you adress this, to the satisfaction of the public YOU, not i will have relegated your religion to just another murder (cover it up and claim were right) cult.

[Horn]

It which was full of enormous verdigris colored, life-sized cattle sculptures all standing up and individually embedded into it already. As I recall they seemed to be all facing inwards toward the pool center. It creeped me out. Those enormous, multiple sculptures were totally submerged since the pool was full of sparkling water, and no I didn't count them.

Objectively looking at the rituals contained in Mormonism it is plain to see that they are a patchwork from all the religions available at the time.

A macro level mix of multi-culturalism to comfort followers of all previous religions.

With special exception given towards worshiping the dead, this could have been included for the Allister Crowley crowd.

If a single man is attempting to create a new religion it is best to make the heads of all the formers happy, even when going as far as giving them offerings after they're gone.

[Libertytree]

First off, I could care less what any ones "faith" is, as Blink pointed out above it's a waste of time and energy in debating it, IMHO.

What I do put weight in is an R.Money shill even wanting to join this forum as this forum is the antithesis of everything that traitor stands for. The OP can put that mormonism where the sun don't shine, as if that gives mitty some high ground in his thirst for power and his willingness to sell his country out to the jews, the elite and the bankers. To align yourself with that piece of filth makes you no better than him and are no friend to freedom and liberty and if you thought for an instant you might soften some of us to him then you're crazy as hell...but I guess the pay ain't bad.

Lets see how long it takes for me to get banned if I dare speak the truth on an R. Money board. Ya see, here's the difference, I'd get banned in a heartbeat and here unless you totally cross the line you'll be free to say whatever you want. So, stick around if you can handle true freedom....oh, I forgot, you probably are just as much in love with the NDAA as your mor(m)on buddy mitt.

[midnight rambler]

you probably are just as much in love with the NDAA as your mor(m)on buddy mitt.

Being an Illuminaughty aligned statist/collectivist, there's absolutely no heavy-handedness on the part of the state Mittens would be opposed to. And yes, this absolutely means banning hi-cap mags, online ammo sales and/or EBRs.

I fully suspect that if Mittens wins the POTUS Sweepstakes© he will pull a Poppy Bush and with a stroke of the pen lay some gun control hurt on us within a couple of months of displacing the Obamanation.

Think it cannot get any worse than the Obamanation? Think again.

[old steel]

What you are failing to understand Pat is that material from Anti-Mormon sites is not representative of actual LDS Doctrine, and teachings. This thread is not about Anti-Mormon propaganda and I am not interested in dissecting their false claims and accusations. My task here is to inform those who want to know actual LDS teachings, doctrines and beliefs. With a detour at the moment to address a few masonic issues which posters have introduced ;)

Oh so someone who refutes the claims of Mormonism on a web site is anti Mormon because they don't subscribe to your views? How about they are enlightened to be able to think for themselves and don't wish others to fall into the trap Moronism lays for you by taking away your soverginty as an individual and giving it to a corporation(business model) Oh yes LDS is a corporation the Official name of the church on the books is "THE CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS" Jesus is big business in SLC who would have thought it?

Why is it that Mormons always show up on forums to defend their beliefs where they aren't even being attacked in the first place?

You don't see Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, or any other Christian types showing up when their religions are being discussed but Mormons always show up i've seen it time and again.

Why is it Mormons are always pushing their religion on other people unsolicited?

The only other religion i have ever seen do that are the Jehovah Witnesses.

How do you like being lumped in with those crazies? That's where you are.

[Cebu_4_2]

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=I4553284490823014&pid=1.7&w=124&h=147&c=7&rs=1

[Libertytree]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Janadele http://gold-silver.us/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?p=562708#post562708)
What you are failing to understand Pat is that material from Anti-Mormon sites is not representative of actual LDS Doctrine, and teachings. This thread is not about Anti-Mormon propaganda and I am not interested in dissecting their false claims and accusations. My task here is to inform those who want to know actual LDS teachings, doctrines and beliefs. With a detour at the moment to address a few masonic issues which posters have introduced ;)

"My task"...says volumes. I bet the LDS'ers see R.Money being in the spotlight as a windfall to new recruits.

[old steel]

“Oh Lord my God,” cried Joseph Smith as he was assassinated at Liberty Jail in Carthage, Illinois on June 27, 1844. These words are the beginning of the Masonic Distress Call which continues, “Is there no help for the widow’s son?” The first Prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints spoke the first four words while shots were fired by a mob of about 125 men as he was climbing out of the second-story window of the jail. The Prophet was apparently trying to spare the lives of two Apostles, John Taylor (severely wounded) and Willard Richards, who were with him in prison. His Brother Hyrum was killed moments before.

Some feel Joseph Smith was appealing to Masons in the mob for help. More likely he was addressing God whom he would meet at any moment, since he had predicted his death several times in past days. He also certainly knew any friendly persons in the mob would not be helpful.

The murder was not a Masonic plot. It was plotted in public meetings in Warsaw, Illinois.

Only an eyewitness or participant could have the slightest credibility in making such an outrageous statement.

[Janadele]

George Washington and more than half of the authors of the United States Constitution were Masons.

The All Seeing Eye is an ancient symbol found in many places and usage all over the world. It is an architectural decorative motif, not used in rituals.

Rituals, signs and tokens serve a purpose in being a way of remembering, and may be substantively similar to those seen during the ages in many uses and places in the world. Meanings will differ, and change according to their particular use.

Elements, and levels are also used as symbols. One level on top of another teaches an idea of an order of authority. As can be seen in the LDS Kirtland Temple, now owned by the Community of Christ.

The use of grips is ancient in origin. Galatians 2:9, references to "the right hands of fellowship" and a Roman coin of the period shows the same. Grips are shown on a token of Irish American friendship from 1866.

The letter 'G' stands for God and also for geometry. The Square and Compass deals with the tri-square, used to lay out and check work to make sure it is square.

The sun rises in the east to open and govern the day. Laying out of sacred buildings on an east-west axis is common practice in the world. Almost all gravestones in the world face east... facing east towards the resurrection, and the rising sun.

A Masonic Lodge will have an altar and a "Book of the Law" on the altar. Masonry relies on ideas, and geometry of the sacred. Many of the old ideas predate Masonry, which adopted and preserved them and their usage.


My late husband was a Mason, and his ancestors before him way back to early Scottish times. They were also strict Presbyterian clergy and lay preachers.

The first reference found to Freemasonry is in 975 in York, England. But Masonry as we know it today really takes root in the Enlightenment of the early Eighteenth Century, with utopian visions of universal brotherhood and the medieval stone Masons guilds of the Middle Ages. Religious, but not a religion, accepting most religious traditions within it, the Masonic Lodge taught and practiced strengthening relationships with fellow mankind. Whereas the LDS Temple rituals teach of our relationship to Deity.

Kirtland, Ohio, LDS Temple, started construction in 1833, dedicated March 27,1836... six years before Joseph Smith became a Mason. Latter-day Saints also had plans for a number of Temples in Missouri in the 1830s, two of which were started before the LDS fled to the Nauvoo area in 1839..

On January 19, 1841, well before his initiation into Masonry in 1842, Joseph Smith recorded a revelation that speaks clearly of the need for a Temple in Nauvoo and of some of the ordinances to be carried out there (see D&C 124:27-42).

The origins of the LDS Temple ceremonies are wholly divine. Joseph Smith's understanding of the Priesthood Temple Endowment began long before his initiation into Masonry.

No Mason—or anyone else—acquainted with the rituals of the Order can honestly claim there is the slightest resemblance of those ordinances or procedures [of the LDS endowment ceremony] to anything presented in a Symbolic Lodge of Free Masonry... which is not a religion, but a fraternal order. (Mervin B. Hogan, "The Historicity of the Alleged Masonic Influence on Mormonism," pp. 17, 30-31 [Jan. 15, 1984]).

The critics of the LDS Church and the critics of Freemasonry are oftentimes one and the same group of people.

[JDRock]

dont forget the massacre of wyoming folks at farson wyo (which the church sued to have the signs and memorial removed. if this is going to be another religious propaganda thread in which you will not ADMIT=be honest as to your churches complicity, close it. How many people would jesus kill? untill you adress this, to the satisfaction of the public YOU, not i will have relegated your religion to just another murder (cover it up and claim were right) cult.
please answer on point, void of propaganda. We await your candid reply.

[midnight rambler]

One level on top of another teaches an idea of an order of authority.

It could not be more clear from the writings of Albert Pike, Helena Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, et al. that ultimately they worship Lucifer. Do you deny that Masons at the top of their hierarchy worship Lucifer?

[MAGNES]

George Washington and more than half of the authors of the United States Constitution were Masons.

The All Seeing Eye is an ancient symbol found in many places and usage all over the world. It is an architectural decorative motif, not used in rituals.

Rituals, signs and tokens serve a purpose in being a way of remembering, and may be substantively similar to those seen during the ages in many uses and places in the world. Meanings will differ, and change according to their particular use.

Elements, and levels are also used as symbols. One level on top of another teaches an idea of an order of authority. As can be seen in the LDS Kirtland Temple, now owned by the Community of Christ.

The use of grips is ancient in origin. Galatians 2:9, references to "the right hands of fellowship" and a Roman coin of the period shows the same. Grips are shown on a token of Irish American friendship from 1866.

The letter 'G' stands for God and also for geometry. The Square and Compass deals with the tri-square, used to lay out and check work to make sure it is square.

The sun rises in the east to open and govern the day. Laying out of sacred buildings on an east-west axis is common practice in the world. Almost all gravestones in the world face east... facing east towards the resurrection, and the rising sun.

A Masonic Lodge will have an altar and a "Book of the Law" on the altar. Masonry relies on ideas, and geometry of the sacred. Many of the old ideas predate Masonry, which adopted and preserved them and their usage.

I don't have time for you, are you defending Masonry, it is non defensible,
let's leave your points out of it, you are defending Masonry, do you realize by
doing so you are discrediting yourself further in a very big way, is this an acknowledgment
that LDS is Masonry, I always thought that Mormons are good people and Masonry was
brought in by their leaders at the top, most in community have no clue, Masonry's
whole goal for one is anti Christian, Jah Baal On worshippers 3rd degree, Lucifer openly later on,
this forum is very anti Mason, LOL ! Do you know our history ? LOL !

Here's a clue. There is lot more in GIM section by many.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?60115-Masonic-Plot-s-favorite-delicacy

Masons run this place,
Skyvike would love you to join him over there, more eyeballs too for Romney.
http://goldismoney2.com/forum.php

http://i39.tinypic.com/wk05xz.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/21kz3on.jpg

[Horn]

George Washington and more than half of the authors of the United States Constitution were Masons.

If you're defending masons now, or then?

What was once an artful approach to religion, then to be found an easily manipulated one from the top is a weak defense at best.

Half of the founders were deist, hence their works. Believing man had no place in making, or promoting such decisions for the individual. Many were masons just as many politicians today call themselves Christian or Mormon (just to get the votes or a base to assoc. with)

Masons still worked their way thru to the upper echelons of the U.S. (where they have been most successful) subversively, evidence in the dollar artwork & direction of the country taken up to and since WWII. they are covered with a tinge of destruction and construction.

Same as the jews Zion & Babylon, human inhabitants of Earth are simply in the way of their designs.

[mick silver]

dont feed the troll . how much are you payed to come here with you mitt shit

[Janadele]

{--->) He who crows with forked tongue, may soon enough have chopped off head. ^O--]

[mick silver]

are you saying your going to hurt a member here ... heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy mods

[Horn]

http://guidestones.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/vandalized1.jpg

[JDRock]

please answer on point, void of propaganda. We await your candid reply.
please class, refer to the sticky entitled "forum trolls a gentlemans guide" we see here a predictable pattern of AVOIDING pointed and neccessary questions-on topic. there has been a concerted effort to sway the boards opinion with hearsay and emotion, therefore i can only assume you have no real interest in truth...just spam and propaganda. sorry, take it elsewhere as the folks here are too wise and too learned ( excepting myself) to spend the waning hours of their freedom chasing trolls.

[Janadele]

Are Jesus and Lucifer brothers?

John the Revelator beheld in vision some of the scenes that had been enacted in the spirit-world before the beginning of human history. He witnessed strife and contention between loyalty and rebellion, with the hosts defending the former led by Michael the archangel, and the rebellious forces captained by Satan, who is also called the devil, the serpent, and the dragon. We read: "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels."

In this struggle between unembodied hosts the forces were unequally divided; Satan drew to his standard only a third part of the children of God, who are symbolized as the "stars of heaven"; the majority either fought with Michael, or at least refrained from active opposition, thus accomplishing the purpose of their "first estate"; while the angels who arrayed themselves on
the side of Satan "kept not their first estate," and therefore rendered themselves ineligible for the glorious possibilities of an advanced condition or "second estate." The victory was with Michael and his angels; and Satan or Lucifer, theretofore a "son of the morning," was cast out of heaven, yea "he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

The Prophet Isaiah, to whom these momentous occurrences had been revealed about eight centuries prior to the time of John's writings, laments with inspired pathos the fall of so great a one; and specifies selfish ambition as the occasion: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Justification for citing these scriptures in connection with our present consideration will be found in the cause of the great contention -- the conditions that led to this war in heaven. It is plain from the words of Isaiah that Lucifer, already of exalted rank, sought to aggrandize himself without regard to the rights and agency of others. The matter is set forth, in words that none may misapprehend, in a revelation given to Moses and repeated through the first prophet of the present dispensation:

"And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying -- Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honour. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me -- Father, thy will be
done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; and he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice."

Thus it is shown that prior to the placing of man upon the earth, how long before we do not know, Christ and Satan, together with the hosts of the spirit-children of God, existed as intelligent individuals, possessing power and opportunity to choose the course they would pursue and the leaders whom they would follow and obey. In that great concourse of spirit-intelligences,
the Father's plan, whereby His children would be advanced to their second estate, was submitted and doubtless discussed. The opportunity so placed within the reach of the spirits who were to be privileged to take bodies upon the earth was so transcendently glorious that those heavenly multitudes burst forth into song and shouted for joy.

Satan's plan of compulsion, whereby all would be safely conducted through the career of mortality, bereft of freedom to act and agency to choose, so circumscribed that they would be compelled to do right -- that one soul would not be lost -- was rejected; and the humble offer of Jesus the Firstborn -- to assume mortality and live among men as their Exemplar and Teacher, observing the sanctity of man's agency but teaching men to use aright that divine heritage -- was accepted. The decision brought war, which resulted in the vanquishment of Satan and his angels, who were cast out and deprived of the
boundless privileges incident to the mortal or second estate. In that august council of the angels and the Gods, the Being who later was born in flesh as Mary's Son, Jesus, took prominent part, and there was He ordained of the Father to be the Savior of mankind.
James E.Talmage, Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-daySaints.

[Janadele]

Graded Intelligences in the Antemortal State. -- That the spirits of men existed as individual intelligences, of varying degrees of ability and power, prior to the inauguration of the mortal state upon this earth and even prior to the creation of the world as a suitable abode for human beings, is shown in great plainness through a divine revelation to Abraham: "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; and God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born." (Abr. 3:22-23.)

That both Christ and Satan were among those exalted intelligences, and that Christ was chosen while Satan was rejected as the future Savior of mankind, are shown by the portions of the revelation immediately following that above quoted: "And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; and we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; and they who keep
their first estate shall be added upon, and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads forever and ever. And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him." (Abr. 3:24-28.)

The Primeval Council in the Heavens. -- "It is definitely stated in the Book of Genesis that God said, `Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'; and again, after Adam had taken of the forbidden fruit the Lord said, `Behold, the man has become as one of us'; and the inference is direct that in all that related to the work of the creation of the world there was a
consultation; and though God spake as it is recorded in the Bible, yet it is evident He counseled with others. The scriptures tell us there are `Gods many and Lords many. But to us there is but one God, the Father' (1 Cor. 8:5). And for this reason, though there were others engaged in the creation of the worlds, it is given to us in the Bible in the shape that it is; for the
fulness of these truths is only revealed to highly favored persons for certain reasons known to God; as we are told in the scriptures: `The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant.' -- Psalm 25: 14.

"It is consistent to believe that at this Council in the heavens the plan that should be adopted in relation to the sons of God who were then spirits, and had not yet obtained tabernacles, was duly considered. For, in view of the creation of the world and the placing of men upon it, whereby it would be possible for them to obtain tabernacles, and in those tabernacles obey laws of life, and with them again be exalted among the Gods, we are told that at that time, `the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy.' The question then arose, how, and upon what principle, should the salvation, exaltation and eternal glory of God's sons be brought about? It is evident that at that Council certain plans had been proposed and discussed, and that after a full discussion of those principles, and the declaration of the Father's will pertaining to His design, Lucifer came before the Father with a plan of his own, saying, `Behold [here am] I; send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore, give me thine honor.' But Jesus, on hearing this statement made by Lucifer, said, `Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.' From these remarks made by the well beloved Son, we should naturally infer that in the discussion of this subject the Father had made known His will and developed His plan and design pertaining to these matters, and all that His well beloved Son wanted to do was to carry out the will of His Father, as it would appear had been before expressed. He also wished the glory to be given to His Father, who, as God the Father, and the originator and designer of the plan, had a right to all the honor and glory.

But Lucifer wanted to introduce a plan contrary to the will of his Father, and then wanted His honor, and said: `I will save every soul of man, wherefore give me thine honor.' He wanted to go contrary to the will of his Father, and presumptuously sought to deprive man of his free agency, thus making him a serf, and placing him in a position in which it was impossible for him to obtain that exaltation which God designed should be man's, through obedience to the law which He had suggested; and again, Lucifer wanted the honor and power of his Father, to enable him to carry out principles which were contrary to the Father's wish."
-- John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, pp. 93-94

[midnight rambler]

It could not be more clear from the writings of Albert Pike, Helena Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, et al. that ultimately they (Freemasons aka 'The Lodge') worship Lucifer. Do you deny that Masons at the top of their hierarchy worship Lucifer?


John the Revelator beheld in vision some of the scenes that had been enacted in the spirit-world before the beginning of human history. He witnessed...


Graded Intelligences in the Antemortal State. -- That the spirits of men existed as individual intelligences, of varying degrees of ability and power, prior to the inauguration of the mortal state upon this earth and even prior to the creation of the world as a suitable abode for human beings, is shown in great plainness through a divine revelation to Abraham...

How about a straight up 'yes' or 'no' answer instead of deflecting the question with a bunch of propaganda??

Is that asking too much??

[chad]

the cut and paste is strong with this one.

[midnight rambler]

"When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging." --Will Rogers

[vacuum]

the cut and paste is strong with this one.

if you don't put in the effort to type it, you can't expect someone to put the effort into reading it...

[Janadele]

Some matters are too important to take away from the words of the Prophets and put into one's own words. It is the message that should be of concern, not the messenger. A question has been asked, and the answer given.

[midnight rambler]

How about a straight up 'yes' or 'no' answer instead of deflecting the question with a bunch of propaganda??

Is that asking too much??


Some matters are too important to take away from the words of the Prophets and put into one's own words. It is the message that should be of concern, not the messenger. A question has been asked, and the answer given.

Still looking for a very simple 'yes' or 'no' answer. Are you capable of independent thought? (rhetorical question).

On another note (and I'm sure this is asking waaaaay too much of one who drinks the Kool-Aid seeing as I haven't gotten any definitive answer on the Lucifer worshiping Freemasons lol) - Do you deny that Mitt Romney is a very willing war-mongering tool of the blood-thirsty Illuminaughty and someone who COMPLETELY lacks any compassion for the suffering of others?

As only one example, Mittens take on a FLOWER which the CREATOR HIMSELF placed here for our medicinal use and benefit -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNv7lY-ZhKA

Proof positive that Mittens is one extremely cruel and heartless mo fo.

[Janadele]

Publicity media set up.

[midnight rambler]

Publicity media set up.

That must be some *really* tasty Kool-Aid. lol

http://www.getreligion.org/wp-content/photos/jonestown.jpg

I'll pass.

[slowbell]

Janadele, what are your thoughts on the mormon fundamentalists? Colorado city? Warren Jeffs?

[Janadele]

The Fall of Man was a good thing, right?

LDS Apostle James E. Talmage.:

"The father of souls has endowed His children with the divine birthright of free agency;He does not and will not control them by arbitrary force; He impels no man toward sin; He compels none to righteousness.

Unto man has been given freedom to act for himself; and, associated with this independence, is the fact of strict responsibility and the assurance of individual accountability. In the judgment with which we shall be judged, all the conditions and circumstances of our lives shall be considered. The inborn tendencies due to heredity, the effect of environment whether conducive to good or evil, the wholesome teachings of youth, or the absence of good instruction--these and all other contributory elements must be taken into account in the rendering of a just verdict as to the soul's guilt or innocence. Nevertheless, the divine wisdom makes plain what will be the result with given conditions operating on known natures and dispositions of men, while every individual is free to choose good or evil within the limits of the many conditions existing and operative."

The Fall a Process of Physical Degeneracy.--A modern revelation given to the Church in 1833 (D&C 89), prescribes rules for right living, particularly as regards the uses of stimulants, narcotics, and foods unsuited to the body. Concerning the physical causes by which the fall was brought about, and the close relation between those causes and current violations of the Word of Wisdom embodied in the revelation referred to above, the following is in point. "This, [the Word of Wisdom] like other revelations that have come in the present dispensation, is not wholly new. It is as old as the human race.

The principle of the Word of Wisdom was revealed unto Adam. All the essentials of the Word of Wisdom were made known unto him in his immortal state, before he had taken into his body those things that made of it a thing of earth. He was warned against that very practice. He was not told to treat his body as something to be tortured. He was not told to look upon it as the fakir of India has come to look upon his body, or professes to look upon it, as a thing to be utterly condemned; but he was told that he must not take into that body certain things which were there at hand. He was warned that, if he did, his body would lose the power which it then held of living for ever, and that he would become subject to death. It was pointed out to him, as it has been pointed out to you, that there are many good fruits to be plucked, to be eaten, to be enjoyed. We believe in enjoying good food. We think that these good things are given us of God. We believe in getting all the enjoyment out of eating that we can; and, therefore, we should avoid gluttony, and we should avoid extremes in all our habits of eating; and as was told unto Adam, so is it told unto us: Touch not these things, for in the day that thou doest it thy life shall be shortened and thou shalt die."

Here let me say that therein consisted the fall--the eating of things unfit, the taking into the body of the things that made of that body a thing of earth: and I take this occasion to raise my voice against the false interpretation of scripture, which has been adopted by certain people, and is current in their minds, and is referred to in a hushed and half-secret way, that the fall of man consisted in some offense against the laws of chastity and virtue. Such a doctrine is an abomination. What right have we to turn the scriptures from their proper sense and meaning? What right have we to declare that God meant not what He said? The fall was a natural process, resulting through the incorporation into the bodies of our first parents of the things that came from food unfit, through the violation of the command of God regarding what they should eat. Don't go around whispering that the fall consisted in the mother of the race losing her chastity and her virtue. It is not true; the human race is not born of fornication.

These bodies that are given unto us are given in the way that God has provided. Let it not be said that the patriarch of the race, who stood with the gods before he came here upon the earth, and his equally royal consort, were guilty of any such foul offense. The adoption of that belief has led many to excuse departures from the path of chastity and the path of virtue, by saying that it is the sin of the race, that it is as old as Adam. It was not introduced by Adam. It was not committed by Eve. It was the introduction of the devil and came in order that he might sow the seeds of early death in the bodies of men and women, that the race should degenerate as it has degenerated whenever the laws of virtue and of chastity have been transgressed.

"Our first parents were pure and noble, and when we pass behind the veil we shall perhaps learn something of their high estate, more than we know now. But be it known that they were pure; they were noble. It is true that they disobeyed the law of God, in eating things they were told not to eat; but who amongst you can rise up and condemn?"

We have heretofore shown that the entire human race existed as spirit-beings in the primeval world, and that for the purpose of making possible to them the experiences of mortality this earth was created. They were endowed with the powers of agency or choice while yet but spirits; and the divine plan provided that they be free-born in the flesh, heirs to the inalienable birthright of liberty to choose and to act for themselves in mortality. It is undeniably essential to the eternal progression of God's children that they be subjected to the influences of both good and evil, that they be tried and tested and proved withal, "to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them." Free agency is an indispensable element of such a test.

The Eternal Father well understood the diverse natures and varied capacities of His spirit-offspring; and His infinite foreknowledge made plain to Him, even in the beginning, that in the school of life some of His children would succeed and others would fail; some would be faithful, others false; some would choose the good, others the evil; some would seek the way of life while others would elect to follow the road to destruction. He further foresaw that death would enter the world, and that the possession of bodies by His children would be of but brief individual duration. He saw that His commandments would be disobeyed and His law violated; and that men, shut out from His presence and left to themselves, would sink rather than rise, would retrogress rather than advance, and would be lost to the heavens. It was necessary that a means of redemption be provided, whereby erring man might make amends, and by compliance with established law achieve Salvation and eventual exaltation in the eternal worlds. The power of death was to be overcome, so that, though men would of necessity die, they would live anew, their spirits clothed with immortalized bodies over which death could not again prevail.

Let not ignorance and thoughtlessness lead us into the error of assuming that the Father's foreknowledge as to what would be, under given conditions, determined that such must be. It was not His design that the souls of mankind be lost; on the contrary it was and is His work and glory, "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Nevertheless He saw the evil into which His children would assuredly fall, and with infinite love and mercy did He ordain means of averting the dire effect, provided the transgressor would elect to avail himself thereof. The offer of the firstborn Son to establish through His own ministry among men the gospel of salvation, and to sacrifice Himself, through labor, humiliation and suffering even unto death, was accepted and made the foreordained plan of man's redemption from death, of his eventual salvation from the effects of sin, and of his possible exaltation through righteous achievement.

In accordance with the plan adopted in the council of the Gods, man was created as an embodied spirit; his tabernacle of flesh was composed of the elements of earth. He was given commandment and law, and was free to obey or disobey -- with the just and inevitable condition that he should enjoy or suffer the natural results of his choice. Adam, the first man placed upon the earth in pursuance of the established plan, and Eve who was given unto him as companion and associate, indispensable to him in the appointed mission of peopling the earth, disobeyed the express commandment of God and so brought about the "fall of man," whereby the mortal state, of which death is an essential element was inaugurated. The woman was deceived, and in direct violation of counsel and commandment partook of the food that had been forbidden, as a result of which act her body became degenerate and subject to death. Adam realized the disparity that had been brought between him and his companion, and with some measure of understanding followed her course, thus becoming her partner in bodily degeneracy. Note in this matter the words of Paul the apostle: "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

The man and the woman had now become mortal; through indulgence in food unsuited to their nature and condition and against which they had been specifically warned, and as the inevitable result of their disobeying the divine law and commandment, they became liable to the physical ailments and bodily frailties to which mankind has since been the natural heir. Those bodies, which before the fall had been perfect in form and function, were now subjects for eventual dissolution or death. The arch-tempter through whose sophistries, half-truths and infamous falsehoods, Eve had been beguiled, was none other than Satan, or Lucifer, that rebellious and fallen "son of the morning," whose proposal involving the destruction of man's liberty had been rejected in the council of the heavens, and who had been "cast out into the earth," he and all his angels as unembodied spirits, never to be tabernacled in bodies of their own. As an act of diabolic reprisal following his rejection in the council, his defeat by Michael and the heavenly hosts, and his ignominious expulsion from heaven, Satan planned to destroy the bodies in which the faithful spirits -- those who had kept their first estate -- would be born; and his beguilement of Eve was but an early stage of that infernal scheme.

Death has come to be the universal heritage as Satan well knows; and in this knowledge is his present though but temporary triumph. But the purposes of God, as they ever have been and ever shall be, are infinitely superior to the deepest designs of men or devils; and the Satanic machinations to make death inevitable, perpetual and supreme were provided against even before the first man had been created in the flesh. The atonement to be wrought by Jesus the Christ was ordained to overcome death and to provide a means of ransom from the power of Satan.

[Skirnir_]

...

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/1931/daffyscrewball.gif

[Janadele]

The FLDS are a break away group from way back, and many generations have been since born into the organisation. I am sad for them and hope they will, as many have done, repent, be re baptised, and return to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Janadele, what are your thoughts on the mormon fundamentalists? Colorado city? Warren Jeffs?

[BrewTech]

Holy motherapearl... a 9 page thread on farkin MORMONISM?? In a little over 1 day? In a thread started by a brand new member?

This board is going down the tubes.

What part of "paid shill" do you guys NOT understand?

[Skirnir_]

Holy motherapearl... a 9 page thread on farkin MORMONISM?? In a little over 1 day? In a thread started by a brand new member?

This board is going down the tubes.

I don't see what the big thing is. If that's what they want to talk about, and what I also happen to find absolutely hilarious and worthy of ridicule, then that is what we will do.

[Janadele]

2,376 views so far :p
Holy motherapearl... a 9 page thread on farkin MORMONISM?? In a little over 1 day? In a thread started by a brand new member?

[BrewTech]

2,376 views so far :pGood for you ya shill. Hope you get your bonus.

[slowbell]

What part of "paid shill" do you guys NOT understand?

Brew, I asked a straight up question, and she answered it. I respect that. Straight up posting, no twisting contexts of posts around, I respect. No low blows or cheap shots. That makes a good forum.

[Janadele]

BrewTech: No need to swear. It is so unbecoming.

[BrewTech]

Brew, I asked a straight up question, and she answered it. I respect that. Straight up posting, no twisting contexts of posts around, I respect. No low blows or cheap shots. That makes a good forum.

Whatever. If fucking moronism is what people are interested in here, maybe I need to find a new place to hang.

[zap]

Ya drama always wins out, personally I have looked at the thread off and on but I don't read it all, lol short attention span I guess, and besides you, me or anybody else isn't going to convert anyone here ....... all of us are way to damned set in our ways ( hard headed I would say) ....... most here aren't weak minded.;)

[slowbell]

Whatever. If fucking moronism is what people are interested in here, maybe I need to find a new place to hang.

Moronmism is just this thread. Just don't hang in this thread. I doubt I will either, for that matter.

We should drink beer.

[Skirnir_]

No need to swear. It is so unbecoming.

Yes, there is. Not a day goes by when I do not say '병신 걸레같은 년' ;D

[midnight rambler]

2,376 views so far :p

(made up) Drama is what sells those boring as hell 'reality' shows. lol

[BrewTech]

Moronmism is just this thread. Just don't hang in this thread. I doubt I will either, for that matter.

We should drink beer.

Mormonism seems to be the thread of the century today. I get uneasy when I see a new member derail the forum so effectively(this isn't mormon.com).

As to you and I drinking beer... I have 90 barrels of various styles here waiting for you to come down and take your pick.

[Janadele]

Thank you Santa ;)


Janadele, I've got nothing against you personally. You seem like a nice person.

[BrewTech]

Thank you Santa ;)

I'm calling this one...

http://www.playsational.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/sock-puppet.jpg

[slowbell]

As to you and I drinking beer... I have 90 barrels of various styles here waiting for you to come down and take your pick.

The opportunity to put a small dent in one of those barrels sounds great. ;D

Also, the best way to derail a mormon thread, is to talk about beer. I don't believe, they believe, God believes in our belief in beer. If that makes any sense at all. :)

[Libertytree]

Mormonism seems to be the thread of the century today. I get uneasy when I see a new member derail the forum so effectively(this isn't mormon.com).

As to you and I drinking beer... I have 90 barrels of various styles here waiting for you to come down and take your pick.

If anyone noticed there was a Mor(m)on thread up awhile before jana joined, mitty does have a very good tech team and they do their jobs dutifully. Just sayin......shill.

[Janadele]

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
“The Lord made known to him the following facts: That Kolob is the first creation, and is nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. It is the first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. This measurement is according to celestial time. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which by the Egyptians was called Jah-oh-eh.

Oliblish, so called by the Egyptians, stands next to Kolob in the grand governing creation near the celestial, or place where God resides.

This great star is also a governing star and is equal to Kolob in its revolutions and in its measuring of time. Other grand governing stars were also revealed to Abraham” ( Man: His Origin and Destiny [1954], 461.)


...For example, why is Kolob not mentioned in the Bible?
Is the Book of Mormon more important than the Bible ?
Other than masquerading as a Biblical Christian denomination, I don't have a problem with mormonism. I think mormons are often "good people"

Translated correctly,the Bible and the Book of Mormon go hand in hand as Revealed Scripture from Our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Skirnir_]

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

"The toilet is in disrepair, but this turd will not wait. Maybe I should shit out some nonsense onto some paper; these morons will believe anything."

[Janadele]

Have you no shame?

[zap]

LOL they are both just books, who wrote them? I do know some Jehovah's witnesses, they wrote a book too.


Obama or Romney, 2 peas in a pod.........SAME DIFFERENCE !

God Bless GSUS .

[Skirnir_]

Have you no shame?

Have you no brain?

[midnight rambler]

Have you no brain?

Dunno about the brain, but she's got no shortage of chutzpah.

[Skirnir_]

Dunno about the brain, but she's got no shortage of chutzpah.

I think she's full of something else, and if she squatted over some paper and relieved herself of it, some moron just might mistake it for "Revealed Scripture".

[midnight rambler]

True story of how Joseph Smith came to write the Book of Mormon -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gm6JYFdnD8

[Janadele]

There are misinterpretations and misrepresentations of us and of our history, some of it mean-spirited and certainly contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and His gospel.

Sometimes clergy, even ministerial organizations, oppose us. They do what we would never do. We do not attack or criticize or oppose others as they do us...Strangest of all, otherwise intelligent people claim we are not Christian. This shows that they know little or nothing about us. It is a true principle that you cannot lift yourself by putting others down.

Those who are "Anti-" some thing oppose and fight against that thing. Anti-Mormons spend their efforts in opposing Mormonism instead of preaching their own beliefs. The label "anti-Mormon" is thus accurate and appropriate.

Members of the LDS Church wish only to share their own beliefs, and not attack the beliefs of others. They generally consider other believers to be well-intentioned, and hope that they can add to the truths which others already have.

Apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, President Boyd K. Packer.

[Skirnir_]

--------------, they're actually buying it!

The one policy I do enforce on swearing is not to take God's name in vain. Please be respectful to other's religion. Feel free to intelligently discuss, criticize, ask questions, probe, etc.

NO.

[Serpo]

I dont see any results from these so called religions.

Do you hear protesting from them about ww111..nothing.

Brainwashing people with this and that and forming groups.

If you cant wake up yourself how is someone else going to do it for you.

This is the great escape ,we can join a religion and have an arm chair ride to what ...heaven.

Isnt that a little selfish and how can there be heaven when its not right down here or we have our own little private heaven and everyone else gets to suffer.


These people want your very soul not just now but in the here after............

Isnt the idea to become Christ like in your consciousness , awake ,aware ,humble and giving ,isnt this the aim of Religion or do you have to hang around with them forever .

Lets have some answers here

If I love Christ and he loves me then isnt that enough......

why do I have to form an organization to achieve this because the out come is everyone believes basically a similar thing and I believe the creators plan is for wide diversity.

ie YOU AND YOU ALONE

On arrival in Heaven the person arrives with baggage ,a suitcase , and the guardian at the gates ask what is that ,and you say its my religion ,the guardian says , well you cant take that inside,sorry.

[JohnQPublic]

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

"The toilet is in disrepair, but this turd will not wait. Maybe I should shit out some nonsense onto some paper; these morons will believe anything."

This was uncalled for. I interpret that as an attack. Keep the conversation intelligent.

[sirgonzo420]

I'm a bit of an astronomer... whereabouts is Kolob in the sky?

[Janadele]

There shall be wars and rumors of wars, thunders and lightnings, famines and pestilences; the sea shall heave itself beyond its bounds, and all things shall he in commotion; the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall be turned to blood, and the stars shall fall from heaven like figs from off a fig tree. The judgments of God shall stalk through the earth, decimating the human race, before the great day of the Lord shall come. Are we to suppose that in a day like this, when such mighty and terrible things are coming upon the earth, God would leave the world in darkness; that he would shut the heavens, as our Christian friends say He has done; and send forth no more Prophets to prepare us for these great events which are at our doors? The God we worship is just and merciful. He never brings upon the earth any judgment but He sends first a warning message to prepare the people for its coming.

This is our warning to-day—that the Gospel of the kingdom is being preached unto all nations as a witness, and then the hour of God's judgment, or the predicted end of the world shall come. This is the message we bring, the olive branch that we extend to the world, and for so doing we are despised and persecuted and trampled upon. But we know that we need expect no different fate from that which our predecessors have experienced. They laid down their lives in preaching this same Gospel. We must be willing to lay down ours, if need be, to establish these truths upon the earth.

God does not punish except to save, He never chastens except to purify. In sweeping the antediluvian races from the earth, it was an act of mercy to them, that they might not add sin to sin and heap up iniquity until they could not have been pardoned. He swept them off when their cup was full, and imprisoned their spirits while their bodies mouldered in the grave. Jesus, however, while His body was lying in the tomb, went and preached to the spirits in prison; those who rejected the message that was offered to them by Noah, and were swept away by the flood.

So it will be in this day, if this message is rejected; God will bring judgments upon the world until He has humbled the people to a state where they will be glad to receive it. He says to His Elders: Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature; and after your testimony, comes the testimony of earthquakes and tempests, of thunders and lightnings, of the sea heaving itself beyond its bounds, of wars and rumors of wars, of famine and pestilence. Says He, the time shall come when he that will not take up his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety, for there shall be gathered to it of every nation under heaven, and they shall be the only people who are not at war one with another.

It is that the world may escape these terrible judgments and plagues that will desolate the wicked, that we put our lives and liberties in jeopardy in preaching that which is unpopular, and which brings upon us the wrath and hatred of the world. We desire, as much as men can desire, the salvation of our fellow-men. Our mission is to save, not to condemn. This is the Gospel of salvation, not a Gospel of damnation. Damnation follows as a necessary alternative of the rejection of the truth. Men who reject the truth damn themselves. The man who will shut the door in his own face keeps himself out from the Kingdom: it is nobody's fault but his own. The waters of life are free; come and partake of them, without money and without price! If you will not partake of them, how can you blame any one but yourself if you die of thirst in the desert? If you put out the light by persecuting the Saints of God, how can you blame anybody but yourself if you are left in darkness?

If condemnation follows the rejection of the Gospel, God cannot help it, His servants cannot help it. If we invite men to come out into the sunlight and they prefer to stay in the shade, who is to blame but themselves?. They have their choice. Light has burst forth in the midst of darkness, but the darkness comprehendeth it not. Men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Responsibility rests like a mountain upon those who hear the truth and then reject it to their condemnation.

[JohnQPublic]

This is compelling, Janadelle, and the Christian Churches have been preaching the gospel for 20+ centuries. How does the Mormon church distinguish itself in this text? Or does it? What you have written is sourced from the Bible, which the Mormon church feels contains errors (unlike the Book of Mormon). How does the Book of Mormon add to this? Or does it?

(honest questions)

[old steel]

So is the Mormon God who revealed the doctrine of multiple wives the same God who said in the old testament many wives was an abomination in his site?

Is this the same God who reveals doctrine to man that it shall never be taken from the earth and yet the doctrine of polygamy was renounced on September 24 in 1890, faced with the eminent destruction of their church and way of life, Mormon leaders reluctantly issue the "Mormon Manifesto" in which they command all Latter-day Saints to uphold the anti-polygamy laws of the nation and yet tens of thousands of Mormons now excommunicated from the church still live polygamy.

So this perfect God suddenly changed his mind? Has regrets?

Same as back when blacks weren't allowed to hold the priesthood and a Molotov cocktail was thrown on the basketball floor of BYU due to racist policies of the church and BYU was threatened to be tossed out of the NCAA due to these same church policies and suddenly a revelation comes from this God to allow blacks to hold the priesthood?

Sounds like they had this God on speed dial.

How convenient. Everyone needs a God like that.

[PatColo]

2,376 views so far :p

There's prolly around 50-100 unique human (not spider) readers who've opened & perused the thread- thing is, we re-open when we see in the directory that it's been updated- so each reader ends up opening it dozens of times, if they're following it.

Regardless, I think it would be accurate to say, the unique readers have gotten a rock-solid illustration of how LDS/Mormon Church True-Believers (http://www.bravenewkitty.com/2009/06/true-believerism-101/) deal with critical questions about LDS doctrine. Below is my post #120 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562706&viewfull=1#post562706), with the 'Janadele snips all from this thread so far, with reply numbers' quote-box updated to this writing,

_________________


Santa, This is not an LDS video, it was uploaded by an atheist and produced by Anti-Mormons. There is no point in posting fabrication.

Anti-Mormons? Hahahahaha. Is that like Anti-Semites?

This thread is at reply #120 as I write, and at this point the likeness between organized-Jewry's deeply entrenched pattern of seeking to silence/neutralize critics of Jewry's specific-behaviors/religious-doctrines, with ad-hom attacks defaming the messengers as "anti-Semitic" (while conspicuously NOT addressing specific, valid criticisms brought by said messengers),

and Janadele's pattern of response to criticism in this thread,



Please do not post anti-Mormon literature to this thread, I have no intention of bashing my head against a brick wall responding to any such lies and nonsense. #1 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562416&viewfull=1#post562416)

Yes, if the authors are Anti-Mormon then that is their agenda.#40 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562542&viewfull=1#post562542)

Santa, This is not an LDS video, it was uploaded by an atheist and produced by Anti-Mormons. There is no point in posting fabrication.#44 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562549&viewfull=1#post562549)

sirgonzo, It is an Anti-Mormon cartoon... when time permits I may expand on this comment.#51 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562567&viewfull=1#post562567)

Santa, please abide by the topic of this thread as outlined, and post your Anti-Mormon material to another thread. #53 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562570&viewfull=1#post562570)

What I object to are posters telling me incorrectly what my Church believes and teaches, and Anti-Mormons promoting their agenda of confusion, misrepresentations and lies designed to prohibit the reader from ever knowing what the doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually are, whether they agree with them or not.#79 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562628&viewfull=1#post562628)

ImaCannin, I have not watched nor heard the video. My time is too precious to be bothered with Anti-Mormon propaganda.#86 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562640&viewfull=1#post562640)

The critics of the LDS Church and the critics of Freemasonry are oftentimes one and the same group of people.#101 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562676&viewfull=1#post562676)

Were your questions related to the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Or are they from some dubious Anti-Mormon site?#103 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562681&viewfull=1#post562681)

No need to bog down in Anti-Mormon nonsense.#107 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562687&viewfull=1#post562687)

Anti-Mormons also include the break away groups under this nick name, and do not use the correct name of the LDS Church. They are a satanic group obsessed with hatred of all things "Mormon", it is their life's purpose to attempt to destroy the Lord's Church. They try to do so by many means... even in subtle ways which deceive many into thinking that some of their web-sites and the videos and literature they produce are authentic.#113 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562695&viewfull=1#post562695)

*** updated: Janadele posts after #113 ***

What you are failing to understand Pat is that material from Anti-Mormon sites is not representative of actual LDS Doctrine, and teachings. This thread is not about Anti-Mormon propaganda and I am not interested in dissecting their false claims and accusations.#122 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562708&viewfull=1#post562708)

Publicity media set up.#163 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562917&viewfull=1#post562917)

Those who are "Anti-" some thing oppose and fight against that thing. Anti-Mormons spend their efforts in opposing Mormonism instead of preaching their own beliefs. The label "anti-Mormon" is thus accurate and appropriate.#193 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562967&viewfull=1#post562967)



... well, the LIKENESS is unmistakable! :o:-X Also see: Thread: Why do Mormons Love Israel? (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62669-Why-do-Mormons-Love-Israel)

There's another striking parallel with Organized Jewry's dogma of portraying themselves as perennial victims of "irrational haters" who, being (fraudulently) labeled "irrational haters" (or, "anti-Mormons" ;)), thus do not dignify any response.

That last snip, #113 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562695&viewfull=1#post562695), is the richest of course, and it oozes of the long pattern of Psychological Projections by Organized Jewry (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/) (a gambit I've long refered to as,the Chutzpah Maneuver (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?52269-quot-Among-The-Truthers-quot-Straus-the-Protocols-and-the-Chutzpah-Maneuver)).

Janadele, please understand, one of the uniting feelings among the membership of this messageboard is our universal detest of "Organized Jewry's" (which I personally equate with Rothschild Zionism (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?23047-The-Zionist-Elephant-In-The-Room)) deeply entrenched pattern of behavior, in seeking to dismiss/silence/evade/neutralize critics of Jewry's specific-behaviors & (racist, supremacist, separatist (http://rense.com/general79/talmud.htm)) religious-doctrines, with ad-hom attacks defaming the messengers as "anti-Semitic" (or haters, bigots, satanists, nazis, yada yada) -- while conspicuously NOT addressing specific, valid criticisms brought by said messengers, as well as the long pattern of Psychological Projections by Organized Jewry (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/) (a gambit which is almost always reflected in their "labels" vilifying the messengers of criticism of Jewry's specific-behaviors/religious-doctrines).

So please understand, attempting to evade/dismiss the questions critical of LDS raised here in that ^ manner, will be ill-received here. Labeling critical questions of LDS as "anti-Mormon" and moving on, is not good enough of a response here.

You must address the specific criticism(s) raised, head-on perhaps with supporting links from LDS so skeptical readers can read your claims at the source. IE: "Claim X is inaccurate because... [Y, Z, with source links]"


__________________

Janadele, if your intention is to win "undecideds" over to Romneyism, it's irrelevant. US "elections" are a total sham (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?53978-FAKE-quot-ELECTIONS-quot-Why-Ron-Paul-Can-t-quot-Win-quot&highlight=fake+paul+can%27t[/url); our Dark Rothschild-Zionist Overlords (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?23047-The-Zionist-Elephant-In-The-Room) will install either Rombama [Republicrat] or Obomney [Demublican] next Jan, and regardless of which zio-puppet they install, it'll make not a bit of difference in how the nation is governed.

If you're on a "Mission" to convert new LDS/Mormon Church members; readers of this thread can see ^ it'd be wiser to just skip the spooky/convoluted LDS Church middleman, and just convert straight to Judaism (or Judaism-for-Goyim AKA Masonry). At least the latter are more blunt & to-the-point re what they believe (http://www.rense.com/general79/talmud.htm).

[Janadele]

I'm a bit of an astronomer... whereabouts is Kolob in the sky?

'Kolob' is a term found in ancient records translated by Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith did not provide a full description or explanation of Kolob nor did he assign the idea particular significance in relation to the Church’s core doctrines.

"Kolob" is the name given to the star closest to the throne of God in Abraham 3:3. It is introduced in an effort to teach Abraham that there is a hierarchy in all things. There are many stars, and one star is "closest" to God. In a similar way, there are many intelligences, or moral agents, some greater than others. The greatest of these is God.

Thus, "Kolob" is introduced in a rather peripheral way in an effort to teach about the supremacy of God:
Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other...And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abraham 3:18-19, )

Because LDS theology believes in a God with a physical body, it is not surprising that one might speak of God's location in physical space. Creedal Christian critics who believe in a God without "body, parts, or passions" exploit this difference in perspective to make LDS beliefs seem blasphemous or bizarre. But, to speak of God as having location is no more strange than to speak of Jesus' physical location in Bethlehem or Jerusalem during His mortal life.


President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
“The Lord made known to him the following facts: That Kolob is the first creation, and is nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. It is the first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. This measurement is according to celestial time. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which by the Egyptians was called Jah-oh-eh.

Oliblish, so called by the Egyptians, stands next to Kolob in the grand governing creation near the celestial, or place where God resides.

This great star is also a governing star and is equal to Kolob in its revolutions and in its measuring of time. Other grand governing stars were also revealed to Abraham” ( Man: His Origin and Destiny [1954], 461.)

[Janadele]

:)*#*

“284: If You Could Hie to Kolob,” Hymns of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1. If you could hie to Kolob
In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward
With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,
Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation,
Where Gods and matter end?
Methinks the Spirit whispers,
“No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains,
Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit;
There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;
There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom;
There is no end to light.
There is no end to union;
There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood;
There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872

Music: English melody, arr. Ralph Vaughan Williams, 1872–1958, from the English Hymnal. Used by permission of Oxford University Press.

Abraham 3:1–4, 9

Moses 1:3–4, 33–39
:)

[Horn]

"Kolob" is the name given to the star closest to the throne of God in Abraham

Ahh, the old God is a real estate agent meme again.

Yes, your lot has been set aside in heaven, sorry taxes do apply.

Excepting those with ID card to church endowments, those types are tax free...

[Janadele]

This is compelling, Janadele, and the Christian Churches have been preaching the gospel for 20+ centuries. How does the Mormon church distinguish itself in this text? Or does it? What you have written is sourced from the Bible, which the Mormon church feels contains errors (unlike the Book of Mormon). How does the Book of Mormon add to this? Or does it?

JohnQPublic, These are the last days... The earth has almost fulfilled its mortal probation, its working time. It is closing the six thousand years of its' temporal history. It has worked nearly six days; for "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.
When God said to Adam, "in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt, surely die." He did not mean a short day of twenty-four hours, a day made by one little revolution of the little earth upon which we dwell, but it, was a day of a thousand years, corresponding to one revolution of the great and mighty planet upon which God our Father dwells. Adam lived to the age of 930 years, so that he died within the day that God had reference to.

The earth has laboured nearly six days—six days of one thousand years each. It is yet to have its Sabbath, its millenium of peace, when the Saviour of the world will come to take the reins of government, to reign upon the earth King of kings as He now reigns King of Saints; the seventh period, whose dawn is almost upon us, is the Sabbath, the day of rest which God has ordained for the planet upon which we live, and He will celebrate that Sabbath by coming in person to reign upon the earth over all nations.

John saw, further, the events of the fifth thousand years. He saw the great apostasy that was to take place in the Christian church, when they put to death every inspired man; when they did away with the gifts and blessings of the Holy Ghost; when they said they were no longer necessary; when they engrafted upon the olive tree of the Christian faith the wild branches of paganism. He saw all this taking place down to the sixth thousand years, and after the world had wandered in darkness for centuries, he says in part of the 14th chapter of the Book of Revelation, from the Bible King James' translation.:

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people;
"Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come; and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Showing conclusively, as well as language can show, that this was to be an event of the last days—the hour of God's judgment. John saw the angel restoring the Gospel shortly before the hour of God's judgment, saying with a loud voice to all nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples—not only to the heathen nations, but to those who professed to have the true Christian faith—"Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of his judgment is come." This to us is another proof of the apostasy of the Christian world; for if they had the truth, as they claim, by apostolic succession, from St. Peter down to the present day—what need of restoring the Gospel in its fullness to preach to them? It would be superfluous, unnecessary, to preach to those who were living in the full blaze of Gospel light, and call upon them to repent of their sins.

The Christian world is in a state of apostasy, and though thousands and millions of them are perfectly sincere, it devolves upon a servant of God to preach the truth. John saw the time when an angel would come and restore the everlasting Gospel—not another Gospel, not various kinds of gospels, not the precepts and fables of men, but the "sound doctrine" of ancient times. The Gospel of Christ in its fullness was to be preached to all the nations of the earth to fulfill the prediction of the Son of God, who said that "this Gospel of the Kingdom"—that Gospel which had Apostles to preach it and Prophets; which had gifts and miracles and signs following; a gospel of faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and other principles to be revealed one after another as fast as the people were able to receive them—that this old original Gospel of the Kingdom should come back to the earth to be preached as a witness unto all nations, and then should the end come.

It is for this that the Latter-day Saints are preparing; having fulfilled, as the instruments of God, the prediction of John the Revelator;
an angel in this day having restored the Gospel, which is now being preached as a witness unto all nations... and then shall the end come.

[Blink]

Well, there goes Sunday morning coffee, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb and dumb...................

[ImaCannin]

Janadele,
If Mormonism is the one true religion of the Most High, why do Mormons go by the man made calendar and shun all of the set apart High Days that all of the children of the MOST HIGH are suppose to follow? See Leviticus 23 . Why do Mormons participate in pagan worship days such as christmas (Jeremiah 10: 1-5)and easter (Amos 5-21 Isaiah 1:14) ? Why do Mormons have their weekly worship on the 8th day of the week - same day as the pagans - SUN day - the day the pagans worship the sun?

See Ezekiel 44 : 24 .....And they are to guard My Torot and My Laws in all My appointed festivals and set apart My Sabbaths.

And Remember when you are being taught all this stuff from your church..... Matthew 23 But you, do not be called "rabbi", for ONE is your Teacher, the Messiah , and you are all brothers. .

Have you ever heard of MK ULTRA? You should look into it. It does not deal with Anti Mormon, but that of Mind Control. If your religion tells you to obey and not listen to what anyone else says then that is a form of mind control. they are telling you to only believe what they say instead of you finding the truth for yourself. They could tell you that the sky is green and you would believe them.

[Janadele]

Tumbleweed,
"Newnamenoah" is a particularly mean-spirited individual, well known in anti-Mormon circles. The content is edited and changed to suit their purposes.



Janadele could you take a look at these videos and confirm or deny their authenticity?

[Janadele]

ImaCannin, The Lord continues to direct His Church today through living Prophets. Requirements of Old Testament times are not necessarily so in these latter days, where we have progressed to the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Each Sunday, which since His resurrection the Lord has instructed to be the Sabbath, is the only day set apart as a "Holy"day. Jesus Christ was born on 6 April, however we along with other Christians join in the celebration of His birth in the Christmas season. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold Church services on Christmas Day, unless it falls on the Sabbath.

[Janadele]

What thread?

It is revealing how critics seem to assume Christians require payment for following their Lord. Most do so voluntarily. But this is a concept that those whose "God" is money and priority financial gain, can not understand nor fathom.


If anyone noticed there was a Mor(m)on thread up awhile before jana joined, mitty does have a very good tech team and they do their jobs dutifully. Just sayin......shill.

[JohnQPublic]

JohnQPublic, These are the last days...

Only the Father knows the time, even Jesus does not know. This is dangerous to speculate on. There are many nice theories about when it will happen. Many of those theories predicted dates that passed centuries ago. There were many times throughout history that felt like end times- times even more frightening than now. I know it feels like now is the time, but to accept this is foolish, and leads to apathy (it si end times anyway, so don't try too hard). We could go on another 10,000 years, only the Father knows.

[JohnQPublic]

ImaCannin, The Lord continues to direct His Church today through living Prophets. Requirements of Old Testament times are not necessarily so in these latter days, where we have progressed to the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Each Sunday, which since His resurrection the Lord has instructed to be the Sabbath, is the only day set apart as a "Holy"day. Jesus Christ was born on 6 April, however we along with other Christians join in the celebration of His birth in the Christmas season. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold Church services on Christmas Day, unless it falls on the Sabbath.

The Catholic Church has been the agency Jesus commissioned and worked through since his death. The Orthodox Churches also participate, as do many protestant churches (to lesser extents, perhaps).

[Horn]

Only the Father knows the time, even Jesus does not know. This is dangerous to speculate on. There are many nice theories about when it will happen. Many of those theories predicted dates that passed centuries ago. There were many times throughout history that felt like end times- times even more frightening than now. I know it feels like now is the time, but to accept this is foolish, and leads to apathy (it si end times anyway, so don't try too hard). We could go on another 10,000 years, only the Father knows.

Pretty sure God doesn't want you to live life in or thru death, of yourself, or others.

It would be the Anti-thesis to his work.

[JohnQPublic]

Pretty sure God doesn't want you to live life in or thru death, of yourself, or others.

It would be the Anti-thesis to his work.

Horn- I'm not sure what you mean by this. God certainly does not want death (permanent spiritual death), which is why he created a plan to save us from death (brought on as a consequence fo our fall), through Christ. Christ is the only one who can carry out the plan ("...the lamb is the only one worthy to break the seals...", the 7 seals being the stages of the plan).

[Horn]

Horn- I'm not sure what you mean by this. God certainly does not want death (permanent spiritual death), which is why he created a plan to save us from death (brought on as a consequence fo our fall), through Christ. Christ is the only one who can carry out the plan ("...the lamb is the only one worthy to break the seals...", the 7 seals being the stages of the plan).

A religion's who's central focus, (or recurring theme) is on the ego's death/spiritual rebirth, is an affront to God's plan of life to begin with.

However many seals, or whatnots.

To know of the unknown is faith's message.

to actually know and be "sure of" would be to remove faith.

"Magic" or "magical underpants" have a similar synopsis. If you are sure of how they work they would not be magic. Whoever drew those symbols on Mormons underpants was sure of what they were doing.

[Santa]

Whoever drew those symbols on Mormons "magical underpants" was sure of what they were doing.

God, I love this place....:)

[Tumbleweed]

Tumbleweed,
"Newnamenoah" is a particularly mean-spirited individual, well known in anti-Mormon circles. The content is edited and changed to suit their purposes.

From your answer I assume then that he did record actual temple rituals and cerimonies.

[Janadele]

Only the Father knows the time, even Jesus does not know.

That is true John, it could well be today or in future time. Remembering that a thousand years of our time is but a day in our Heavenly Father's time. However we have been given warnings and signs to look for, and come it will.

Of course our own time of passing could be any moment also, and our time of judgement imminent.

[JDRock]

please class, refer to the sticky entitled "forum trolls a gentlemans guide" we see here a predictable pattern of AVOIDING pointed and neccessary questions-on topic. there has been a concerted effort to sway the boards opinion with hearsay and emotion, therefore i can only assume you have no real interest in truth...just spam and propaganda. sorry, take it elsewhere as the folks here are too wise and too learned ( excepting myself) to spend the waning hours of their freedom chasing trolls.
so far still avoiding huh..truth does not run from on point discussion, it relishes it....so..keep running..

[JDRock]

What thread?

It is revealing how critics seem to assume Christians require payment for following their Lord. Most do so voluntarily. But this is a concept that those whose "God" is money and priority financial gain, can not understand nor fathom. ummm for someone who's god is $, see romney ;)

[BabushkaLady]

Janadele, I have a question for you.

Do you think most Mormons will vote for Mitt, based solely on his religion? Like most blacks voted for Obummer based solely on his skin color?

[JohnQPublic]

Wow! You sure get around, Janadele:

Google "Janadele Mormon" (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=janadele+mormon&oq=janadele+mormon&gs_l=hp.3...1274.4477.0.4778.15.15.0.0.0.0.526.365 1.1j4j3j4j1j1.14.0...0.0...1c.PmI2YrmBZ4I&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f7bcdab3fe9d6679&biw=1366&bih=624)

[Dogman]

Wow! You sure get around, Janadele:

Google "Janadele Mormon" (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=janadele+mormon&oq=janadele+mormon&gs_l=hp.3...1274.4477.0.4778.15.15.0.0.0.0.526.365 1.1j4j3j4j1j1.14.0...0.0...1c.PmI2YrmBZ4I&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f7bcdab3fe9d6679&biw=1366&bih=624)

True believer?


Interesting link.

http://tagwalk.com/user/Janadele

[Korbin Dallas]

Wow! You sure get around, Janadele:

Google "Janadele Mormon" (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=janadele+mormon&oq=janadele+mormon&gs_l=hp.3...1274.4477.0.4778.15.15.0.0.0.0.526.365 1.1j4j3j4j1j1.14.0...0.0...1c.PmI2YrmBZ4I&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f7bcdab3fe9d6679&biw=1366&bih=624)

Just like Brewtech has been saying all along: Paid Shill

[Janadele]

Posters who accuse others whom they disagree with of being paid to post are mentally disturbed.


What thread?

It is revealing how critics seem to assume Christians require payment for following their Lord. Most do so voluntarily. But this is a concept that those whose "God" is money and priority financial gain, can not understand nor fathom.

[Janadele]

Wow! You sure get around, Janadele:

:D I sure do John :) Actually most of my internet posting has been under other names. ;D;D

It is a long long time since I have used Twitter.

[Janadele]

I cannot speak for other Latter-day Saints.

Harry Reid is also an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


Janadele, I have a question for you.

Do you think most Mormons will vote for Mitt, based solely on his religion? Like most blacks voted for Obummer based solely on his skin color?

[Mouse]

And yet, the deceiver brings us into this drama. Of which I am a part. Oh, Lord, please release us and tell us the way. I am now going to let the chickens out, check on my favorite pigs, make sure the cats have food, and probably watch the regular wildlife of turkeys and deer in the holler.

You all let me know if it's Saturn day or Sun day that I should pray, for I hold no church, no service and no requirement of a particular day of the Lord except it is always Today. If you are with me or without me it is always today. Today is the day. Every day.

Just praise Jesus and God (as you understand them) and be fine to all the people and things you know. And watch what you say......

It's another beautiful, dry, 105+ day and I don't have a damn care. I am going to enjoy all that's been given to me.

Peace to Jadanelle, your religion has some good insights and I found your posts entertaining.

[Tumbleweed]

Janadele looks to me like you're using this forum to try and attract converts to mormanism. You'd like to silence any opposition to your beliefs in this thread.

From what I've learned about Joseph Smith and his teachings I believe he did the work of Satan leading people down the path to hell. I've been around mormans and their communities quite a bit and I believe them to be good people but they have been misled. I like the morman people but not their religion. Ed Decker is a former Morman who loves them and has been doing his best to wake them up and lead them out of the Satanic Cult they are involved in. This is a link to his book "To Moroni With Love". It's free to read online.

http://saintsalive.com/resourcelibrary/mormonism/to-moroni-with-love-

These are his opening words to those who may already be involved in this satanic cult or who may be thinking of joining. Janadele I know you're going to respond and say that Ed Decker is very anti mormon and a "Hater" but I don't think that's the case at all. He really is sincere in his efforts to lead those who have been misled by Joseph Smith's mormon cult.


This is a very special booklet. I'm sure that you have never read one quite like it. And I can assure you that it has been a tremendous burden of research and prayer for me in its development. It is given to you, my LDS friend, in love and in Christ.

If you are a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you may doubt the sincerity of that love, but I assure you that it is real and it is honest. If you are one of the many people investigating the church, I pray that you will take time out from your studies to read this thoroughly and ask the Lord to settle the matter in your heart and mind.

Whatever your reason for reading these words, I promise that the next hour of reading time may well be the most significant hour in your spiritual life. Significant, because it will either solidify your belief in the absolute truth of the Mormon message, or questions will be raised that may cause you to take another and deeper look at some of the key doctrines of the church.

[sirgonzo420]

Wow! You sure get around, Janadele:

Google "Janadele Mormon" (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=janadele+mormon&oq=janadele+mormon&gs_l=hp.3...1274.4477.0.4778.15.15.0.0.0.0.526.365 1.1j4j3j4j1j1.14.0...0.0...1c.PmI2YrmBZ4I&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f7bcdab3fe9d6679&biw=1366&bih=624)


http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21506

[BrewTech]

Posters who accuse others whom they disagree with of being paid to post are mentally disturbed.

It matters not in this case whether I agree or disagree with you. In truth, I don't give a flying fark about Mormonism. I can recognize a paid shill at work when I see one.

Calling me "mentally disturbed" just proves my point.

[DMac]

Bump because this post knocks it out of the park. Janadele, you are a disingenuous liar. I do not need to have a DNA printout to know a snake when I see one.


There's prolly around 50-100 unique human (not spider) readers who've opened & perused the thread- thing is, we re-open when we see in the directory that it's been updated- so each reader ends up opening it dozens of times, if they're following it.

Regardless, I think it would be accurate to say, the unique readers have gotten a rock-solid illustration of how LDS/Mormon Church True-Believers (http://www.bravenewkitty.com/2009/06/true-believerism-101/) deal with critical questions about LDS doctrine. Below is my post #120 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562706&viewfull=1#post562706), with the 'Janadele snips all from this thread so far, with reply numbers' quote-box updated to this writing,

_________________


This thread is at reply #120 as I write, and at this point the likeness between organized-Jewry's deeply entrenched pattern of seeking to silence/neutralize critics of Jewry's specific-behaviors/religious-doctrines, with ad-hom attacks defaming the messengers as "anti-Semitic" (while conspicuously NOT addressing specific, valid criticisms brought by said messengers),

and Janadele's pattern of response to criticism in this thread,



... well, the LIKENESS is unmistakable! :o:-X Also see: Thread: Why do Mormons Love Israel? (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62669-Why-do-Mormons-Love-Israel)

There's another striking parallel with Organized Jewry's dogma of portraying themselves as perennial victims of "irrational haters" who, being (fraudulently) labeled "irrational haters" (or, "anti-Mormons" ;)), thus do not dignify any response.

That last snip, #113 (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62718-The-Church-of-Jesus-Christ-of-Latter-day-Saints-Pro-thread-G-Rated&p=562695&viewfull=1#post562695), is the richest of course, and it oozes of the long pattern of Psychological Projections by Organized Jewry (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/) (a gambit I've long refered to as,the Chutzpah Maneuver (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?52269-quot-Among-The-Truthers-quot-Straus-the-Protocols-and-the-Chutzpah-Maneuver)).

Janadele, please understand, one of the uniting feelings among the membership of this messageboard is our universal detest of "Organized Jewry's" (which I personally equate with Rothschild Zionism (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?23047-The-Zionist-Elephant-In-The-Room)) deeply entrenched pattern of behavior, in seeking to dismiss/silence/evade/neutralize critics of Jewry's specific-behaviors & (racist, supremacist, separatist (http://rense.com/general79/talmud.htm)) religious-doctrines, with ad-hom attacks defaming the messengers as "anti-Semitic" (or haters, bigots, satanists, nazis, yada yada) -- while conspicuously NOT addressing specific, valid criticisms brought by said messengers, as well as the long pattern of Psychological Projections by Organized Jewry (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/) (a gambit which is almost always reflected in their "labels" vilifying the messengers of criticism of Jewry's specific-behaviors/religious-doctrines).

So please understand, attempting to evade/dismiss the questions critical of LDS raised here in that ^ manner, will be ill-received here. Labeling critical questions of LDS as "anti-Mormon" and moving on, is not good enough of a response here.

You must address the specific criticism(s) raised, head-on perhaps with supporting links from LDS so skeptical readers can read your claims at the source. IE: "Claim X is inaccurate because... [Y, Z, with source links]"


__________________

Janadele, if your intention is to win "undecideds" over to Romneyism, it's irrelevant. US "elections" are a total sham (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?53978-FAKE-quot-ELECTIONS-quot-Why-Ron-Paul-Can-t-quot-Win-quot&highlight=fake+paul+can%27t[/url); our Dark Rothschild-Zionist Overlords (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?23047-The-Zionist-Elephant-In-The-Room) will install either Rombama [Republicrat] or Obomney [Demublican] next Jan, and regardless of which zio-puppet they install, it'll make not a bit of difference in how the nation is governed.

If you're on a "Mission" to convert new LDS/Mormon Church members; readers of this thread can see ^ it'd be wiser to just skip the spooky/convoluted LDS Church middleman, and just convert straight to Judaism (or Judaism-for-Goyim AKA Masonry). At least the latter are more blunt & to-the-point re what they believe (http://www.rense.com/general79/talmud.htm).

[JohnQPublic]

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21506

It appears the Mormons are no more crazy about Romney than anyone else.

[Horn]

http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21506

So not only does Mitt have trouble primarily within his own state, but also with his own ilk.

Sounds like a man of an alien bloodline.

[Janadele]

LDSFF is a privately owned Forum, as is this. It does not represent the LDS Church nor the views of the majority of members.

[Santa]

LDSFF is a privately owned Forum, as is this. It does not represent the LDS Church nor the views of the majority of members.

But you do?

[JohnQPublic]

LDSFF is a privately owned Forum, as is this. It does not represent the LDS Church nor the views of the majority of members.

It represents a sampling of people that identify themselves as LDS. No one ever claimed it was a scientific poll.

It shows that LDS members have many of the same political views that non-LDS have, and that LDS members can spot a stuffed shirt (or a hair-job in Mitt's case) just like non-LDS. That is a good thing.

[Janadele]

Santa, I am just one member among many of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am not here to proclaim "the Gospel according to Janadele". What I offer to this forum are true and factual answers to genuine questions on what LDS teachings, beliefs and doctrines actually are.

[Janadele]

It does not concern me whether any posters on this forum are or are not being paid to post. If they are then someone is wasting their money big time. ;D

As for myself, I have never been paid to post on the internet, nor for that matter have I ever been paid, or received any financial gain, for participating with, and at times representing, the many organisations whose aims and beliefs I support.


Posters who accuse others whom they disagree with of being paid to post are mentally disturbed.



What thread?

It is revealing how critics seem to assume Christians require payment for following their Lord. Most do so voluntarily. But this is a concept that those whose "God" is money and priority financial gain, can not understand nor fathom.

[ImaCannin]

Wow! You sure get around, Janadele:

Google "Janadele Mormon" (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=janadele+mormon&oq=janadele+mormon&gs_l=hp.3...1274.4477.0.4778.15.15.0.0.0.0.526.365 1.1j4j3j4j1j1.14.0...0.0...1c.PmI2YrmBZ4I&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f7bcdab3fe9d6679&biw=1366&bih=624)

Dang Janadele, you do get around... You go girl!

[Janadele]

:) ;)

Dang Janadele, you do get around... You go girl!

[sirgonzo420]

So what do you think of the Voree plates?

[madfranks]

http://www.utlm.org/


Utah Lighthouse Ministry provides research comparing Mormon claims with Christianity as well as documentation on historical problems in LDS History.

[Janadele]

James J. Strang was a pretender and an apostate.

[sirgonzo420]

Was Joseph Smith more important than Jesus Christ?

Is the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc, more important than the Bible?

[Janadele]

madfranks, as a moderator you should respect that threads have titles and topics for a reason. The opening post here defines that anti-Mormon literature and propaganda is not appropriate to this thread.

For those who do not understand this term, it does not mean non-LDS nor everyone who does not accept or believe our faith or who disagrees with the LDS Church. "Anti-Mormon" is not a slur nor is it pejorative in its use; it is a descriptive term for a satanic organisation and people whose focus in life is producing false and misleading literature, films, videos and whose tactics or desires oppose or fight against the beliefs, members, or practices of the LDS Church. The term "anti-Mormon" was originally used by opponents of the LDS Church in the early 19th century to describe themselves.

[Janadele]

Joseph Smith is a servant and Prophet of our Lord, Saviour and God Jesus Christ.

All Scriptures, translated correctly, are equally important.


Was Joseph Smith more important than Jesus Christ?

Is the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc, more important than the Bible?

[Santa]

Janadele, you appear to be following a false prophet.


Joseph Smith's False Prophecies
by Matt Slick (http://carm.org/matt-slick)
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons (http://carm.org/mormon), claimed to be a prophet of God. Was he a prophet of the true and living God (http://carm.org/dictionary-god)? There are two ways to find out. First, compare what he says to Scripture and if what the Prophet teaches contradict Scripture, then he is false. The second way is to examine any prophecies that he has made. If a single prophecy fails, then the person is a false prophet.
Please note that having several fulfilled prophecies and even a single false prophecy still means that the person is not a true prophet of God. The test for a prophet is not if he gets them most right, but all right. The Bible tells us...

"But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 "And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him," (Deut. 18:20-22 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2018.20-22)). emphasis added.
We can see that the criteria of a true prophet is not failing when predicting the future. This is because God, who is outside of time and the creator of the universe, makes no mistakes when he tells us what will happen. Those prophets whom he has called will not make a mistake and prophesy the future, since to do so would mean the person is not speaking on God's behalf. Therefore, if anyone claims to be a prophet of God and speaks in the name of God and gives a prophecy that fails, then the person is not of God.
Did Joseph Smith make any prophecies? Yes he did. Here are just a few of his false prophecies.
False prophecies of Joseph Smith

History of the Church

Prophecy about Jesus' return within 56 years - "President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context. (http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/jesus-return-within-56-years)

Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.



Doctrine and Covenants

Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation - "Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house... 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed."(Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) See context (http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/doctrine-and-covenants-section-84).

The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.


All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War - "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations," (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). See context (http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/doctrine-and-covenants-section-87)

This is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War.


Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in "not many days": "For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree," (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87) See context (http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/doctrine-and-covenants-section-88)

The sun hasn't yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.
This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. "Not many days hence"? Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than "not many days".

For reference to January 1, 2000 it was 61,000 days (even), or 167 years, 5 days.




Pearl of Great Price

Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled - "In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when 'they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,' but soon would come," (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40). See context (http://carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/pearl-great-price-joseph-smith-history-chapter-1)

Isaiah 11:6-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Isaiah%2011.6-9) says, "And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea."

This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing children are not playing in the dens of cobras.

[Janadele]

No Santa I do not.

This thread is not about the beliefs, teachings, or doctrine of "Matt"

[madfranks]

madfranks, as a moderator you should respect that threads have titles and topics for a reason. The opening post here defines that anti-Mormon literature and propaganda is not appropriate to this thread.

You've got to be kidding, right? What kind of discussion can there be if every time someone posts something challenging your beliefs it's immediately discounted as "anti-Mormon" literature and propaganda? Like santa just posted above, these are facts, not opinions or propaganda.

For the record, I have read the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and D&C; in fact I have them all on my bookshelf right next to my copy of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Jehovah's Witnesses). I've never turned away Mormon missionaries from my door, I always invite them in and discuss with them their beliefs and in true charity attempt to show them the errors of their way. I also have an early edition of the Book of Mormon (published in the 1950's) with tabs in both books showing how certain verses were altered and changed over the decades. Over the course of about six weeks I managed to convince a team of missionaries that they were in error and the leader admitted to me that he couldn't leave the church because that's where he had built his whole life and wasn't willing to throw it away. He wasn't willing to heed Christ's words, "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" - Matthew 10:39